--- Log opened Thu Nov 12 00:00:06 2015
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20151112 00:54:36< neverEnough> Ravana_, i just noticed u created creep war 
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20151112 01:03:43< neverEnough> i just had an OOS. I have 1.12.5 and my mate 1.12.4. We reloaded an old game and OOS happened once he recalled his first unit
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20151112 01:34:24< shadowm> 21:41:45 <INSANU> hello brother, i want to help with making headers for the addon maps within mp
20151112 01:34:47< shadowm> INSANU: Okay, first of all, dev talk goes in the public channel rather than in private messages.
20151112 01:35:38< shadowm> Second, could you elaborate on what you are trying to do? I didn't understand the question. (Also, I'm not anyone's brother. :p )
20151112 01:39:41< neverEnough> turn autosaves from 1.12.4 when moved to 1.12.5 say "illegal title"
20151112 01:39:50< neverEnough> "illegal map title" *
20151112 01:41:33< INSANU> oh =) sorry for that 
20151112 01:42:21< INSANU> EasyCoding guide, mp releated features, second item
20151112 01:42:27< shadowm> neverEnough: What procedure did you use to 'move' them?
20151112 01:43:30< neverEnough> was forced by my friend to turn back on .4
20151112 01:43:35< neverEnough> ah the move
20151112 01:43:45< shadowm> Why?
20151112 01:43:52< neverEnough> he is on windows, he had them,hosted and reported the issue
20151112 01:43:57< shadowm> All 1.12.x versions are mutually compatible.
20151112 01:44:16< neverEnough> heh that's why i reported it. There must be smthing wrong
20151112 01:44:43< neverEnough> first: he was still on .4 and me on .5. He reloaded and we had OOS
20151112 01:44:58< neverEnough> then he got the .5, moved saves and had that weird message 
20151112 01:45:44< shadowm> I have saves dating from back when 1.11.10 was the latest version and they all show up fine on 1.12.5. Kind of doubt turn autosaves are any different, but I'm rebuilding 1.12.4 anyway to check.
20151112 01:45:56< neverEnough> thanks
20151112 01:46:25< neverEnough> if u want we can try it again and give a better answer about symptoms
20151112 01:46:26< shadowm> INSANU: src/game_initialization/ in master has most of the MP lobby/game setup code.
20151112 01:47:36< shadowm> INSANU: But I have to say I don't feel this is an actual "Easy" coding task since it may require you to add some UI kluges -- plus we don't exactly "know" where each map comes from at the moment.
20151112 01:47:48< neverEnough> hah when tryin both on .5 he just noticed he forgot to install addons
20151112 01:48:01< neverEnough> but this still don't solve the OOS trouble
20151112 01:48:15< shadowm> He's on Windows and installed to separate dirs?
20151112 01:49:42< shadowm> If he were here I'd ask him why he's apparently choosing (in the installer) to use the install dir for user config and data. A lot of people do this without a legitimate reason and suffer all kinds of issues with UAC virtualization on Vista and later for that.
20151112 01:50:24< shadowm> Because if he had chosen otherwise, even if he were installing both versions to separate locations, both would share a single user config/data dir located in his Documents folder, and he wouldn't have to move anything around on upgrade.
20151112 01:50:44< shadowm> (Unless it was a cross-branch upgrade, e.g. 1.10.4 to 1.12.5).
20151112 01:50:53< INSANU> shadowm well, what do you think i could work on?
20151112 01:51:04< INSANU> some easy stuff to begin with
20151112 01:51:52< neverEnough> here the answer:
20151112 01:51:56< neverEnough> winterdryad: cause I generally don't like how windows hadles files and users configurations. so i prefer to trust the game itself and keep everything clean
20151112 01:52:27< neverEnough> anyway whatever, i reported it because it looked a bug worth to be reported
20151112 01:52:29< shadowm> INSANU: I think the answer depends a lot on your skillset, really.
20151112 01:52:57< neverEnough> shadowm, so u arguing this problem comes from win rather than a real issue?
20151112 01:53:23< shadowm> neverEnough: Well, by choosing userdata on install location he's specifically choosing to let Windows handle things behind the scenes for us, breaking everything from time to time.
20151112 01:53:54< shadowm> neverEnough: It's a suspicion I have, because UAC virtualization has reportedly been a bit flaky in recent times.
20151112 01:54:21< shadowm> For example: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42970
20151112 01:54:29< INSANU> shadowm i'm mainly a C# programmer for the last 4 years... but i want to raise my c++ skills, so, maybe i could do something to help =)
20151112 01:54:58< neverEnough> he says he is on win 7
20151112 01:55:41< shadowm> Windows 7 is still supported to many updates that apply to Windows 8 or 8.1 will get backported too.
20151112 01:55:45< shadowm> *so many
20151112 01:56:09< shadowm> neverEnough: So, my autosaves from 1.12.5 look fine on 1.12.4.
20151112 01:56:44< neverEnough> hm just as note, the map is World Conquest
20151112 01:56:52< shadowm> An autosave from 1.12.4 looks and works fine on 1.12.5 as well.
20151112 01:57:05< neverEnough> the older version was known to be buggy for long, now there is an other version we are tryin
20151112 01:58:28< shadowm> If it happens again we'll want to look at the affected save(s). He can post in the Technical Support section of the forums and upload them as attachments.
20151112 01:59:37< shadowm> INSANU: Any specific skills you can offer? Knowing specific programming languages is always a good start, but there's still plenty of possibilities to choose from.
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20151112 02:00:29< shadowm> For example, I may know C++ to an extent but the intricacies of GUI programming lie well beyond my skillset.
20151112 02:01:19< neverEnough> (i'm just discovering how intricated are gui things in wesnoth)
20151112 02:01:25< shadowm> (Meaning I can use a GUI framework but not develop one.)
20151112 02:02:55< neverEnough> (jokey proposal: move all gui related things to a subfolder? ^^)
20151112 02:06:16< shadowm> Why would you consider that to be a joke proposal?
20151112 02:06:32< INSANU> i got some qt knowledge. maybe i could give a look into GUI programming =)
20151112 02:06:37< shadowm> It's kind of already the case, too, at least with GUI2.
20151112 02:08:20< shadowm> INSANU: I believe a task like this would be simple enough to get you started with GUI2 and some of Wesnoth's internal library stuff like the logger architecture: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Make_a_GUI_method_to_activate_loggers
20151112 02:08:44< neverEnough> shadowm, i didn't consider GUI2. As for now all the code is totally mixed and the work so big that it's kinda heavy even for a paid team
20151112 02:09:48< shadowm> Since the logging stuff is pervasive to the whole game it can also give you some insight as to how everything fits together, which always helps before specializing in a particular area.
20151112 02:10:20< INSANU> i will look into it =)
20151112 02:10:22< INSANU> thank you
20151112 02:12:06< neverEnough> shadowm, my opinion may be not precise because programmin isn't my job. My noob overall impression is that it really lacked an overall view about how and where to implement things. 
20151112 02:12:54< neverEnough> On the other side this project is awesome, I'm learning very much just by reading how people did their pieces
20151112 02:19:05< shadowm> neverEnough: Admittedly, there is an overall lack of cohesion, yes.
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20151112 02:20:03< shadowm> It'll probably get worse the moment someone able decides to write a third GUI framework to replace GUI2, which isn't too unlikely given the amount of issues it has.
20151112 02:21:57< gfgtdf> neverEnough: when esxtly do you get an OOS ?
20151112 02:23:02< neverEnough> i remember years ago i was tryin to help an other OS game (pretty incomplete compared to BfW). Anyway, all the gui related things was strongly separated from the game logic. The basic gui level was all written in namespaces, the items (like buttons) was gui classes with extensive use of function overloads (unlike here some bools or text passed as param for different behaviours). Game logic was the main game code.
20151112 02:24:10< neverEnough> gfgtdf, we just tried once. As told, i was on .5 and mate on .4
20151112 02:24:35< neverEnough> he reloaded a WC game
20151112 02:24:55< neverEnough> i joined, started, and killed the last enemy
20151112 02:25:09< neverEnough> then we had a scenario change
20151112 02:25:24< neverEnough> it worked, i read all messages related to the new fight
20151112 02:25:34< neverEnough> my mate was red, he recalled his first unit
20151112 02:25:38< neverEnough> and OOS
20151112 02:26:02< gfgtdf> neverEnough: was that a unit that was created before the reload or after rthe reload?
20151112 02:26:16< neverEnough> he recalled a necromancer from previous scenario
20151112 02:26:34< gfgtdf> neverEnough: yes but when was the unit originally recruited
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20151112 02:27:14< gfgtdf> neverEnough: was the unit already recruited when the game was loaded ?
20151112 02:27:28< neverEnough> in the previous game we had when .5 wasn't released
20151112 02:27:46< gfgtdf> neverEnough: so before the game was saved
20151112 02:27:53< neverEnough> yes
20151112 02:27:54< gfgtdf> neverEnough: what was the actualy OOs message ?
20151112 02:27:58< gfgtdf> actual*
20151112 02:28:56< neverEnough> on my side no messages, just the standard window about what to do (quit or what). On his side he doesn't remember
20151112 02:29:05< neverEnough> if u want, tomorrow we try to reproduce
20151112 02:29:56< gfgtdf> neverEnough: so the OOS message appeard to him durign his own turn ?
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20151112 02:36:58< neverEnough> gfgtdf, exactly, but he doesn't recall the message
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20151112 02:38:17< neverEnough> gfgtdf, right he was in his turn, recalled unit and i had the OOS menu about quitting or ignoring
20151112 02:38:56< gfgtdf_> neverEnough: then you also had the message
20151112 02:39:03< neverEnough> he recalled unit from previous scenario AND previous game session 
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20151112 02:39:34< neverEnough> gfgtdf, if that did happen i didn't read. Pushed quit 
20151112 02:47:11< gfgtdf> neverEnough: i just tried to find a replay of that game on the replays.wesnoth.org but i couldn't find it
20151112 02:48:43< neverEnough> we lasted 1+half turn, and not surebut often we set observers off (private talks meanwhile)
20151112 02:49:29< neverEnough> if u think it is worth a check, i'll ask to try to reproduce next time
20151112 02:51:18< gfgtdf> neverEnough: Well if you think this ia a bug then it might be, but the problem if that if this really a problem in compability between 1.12.4 and 1.12.5 then it might be impossible to fix it in 1.12.6 (becase fixing compability to 1.12.4 coudl break compabilty to 1.12.5 if this is really the problem)
20151112 02:51:44< neverEnough> doh didn't think from this point of view
20151112 02:52:19< gfgtdf> neverEnough: Also WC is a rather complicated scenario which makes debuggin nontrivial.
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20151112 02:54:38< neverEnough> ok np, probably this issue won't trigger anything as time goes on and new releases come 
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20151112 02:56:04< gfgtdf> neverEnough: also it could be related to the known bug "Placing units into the recall list with WML/Lua causes OOS if that unit is recalled by the player in the same scenario" (which is also present in 1.12.4) if there is some unkown wml going on.
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20151112 03:01:04< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: kf i was able to reproduce this (or smiilar) just by just obverving a WC2 game.
20151112 03:01:16< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: it says unit recruit checksum missmach
20151112 03:02:22< gfgtdf> s/Necrosporus/neverEnough
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20151112 03:13:21< gfgtdf> neverEnough: ok this is obviously the change in the unit checksum calculation in commit https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b7e172994fbd84f4896cea93db3a7bee74362ca1 if a 1.12.4 and 1.12.5 client play with each other they will calculate the checksum suifferently and the game claims an OOS whnever the unit checksum is checked. 
20151112 03:14:03< gfgtdf> neverEnough: (in mp the checksum is uaually only checked when recalling, unlike replays where the checksum is also checked when recruiting)
20151112 03:14:19< gfgtdf> differently*
20151112 03:16:39< gfgtdf> neverEnough: wait i think i might be wring
20151112 03:17:04< gfgtdf> neverEnough: no im not
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20151112 05:07:50< Aginor> 'lo
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20151112 13:05:53< numberdance> Wich IDE is used for the code?
20151112 13:06:00< numberdance> Eclipse? Netbeans?
20151112 13:06:52< numberdance> Is there any plugin for this?
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20151112 13:07:13< numberdance> Or you simplily import it as C++ project?
20151112 13:07:55< Soliton> each dev uses whatever IDE he likes or none at all.
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20151112 13:08:36< Soliton> if you have a questions about your IDE of choice you might get more help in a channel for that IDE.
20151112 13:09:17< numberdance> But what I really mean is, there is no specific wesnoth dev kit in any IDE
20151112 13:09:40< numberdance> Am I right?
20151112 13:10:12< Soliton> since i have no idea what that'd even mean i guess that is correct.
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20151112 13:17:07< numberdance> if I happen to do some of the tasks, whom I shall give the code?
20151112 13:24:21< Soliton> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PatchSubmissionGuidelines
20151112 13:24:50< numberdance> thx again
20151112 13:25:45< numberdance> It would have taken me ages to find that
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20151112 13:42:24< fabi> numberdance: the cmake support can be used to produce an eclipse project.
20151112 13:42:57< numberdance> HMM I'll have a look at it
20151112 13:43:04< fabi> numberdance: You can also use the "sconsolidator" plugin to use scons in eclipse instead of cmake.
20151112 13:43:27< fabi> numberdance: As far as I know there are project files for kdevelop and codeblocks inside the codebase already.
20151112 13:43:35< fabi> But I don't know if those are upto date.
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20151112 14:21:51< numberdance> thx 
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20151112 16:08:30< neverEnough>  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER neverEnough sxsgpdchogts
20151112 16:08:33< neverEnough> ahaha
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20151112 16:09:16< neverEnough> good i didn't mistake the account secrets in registration 
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20151112 18:38:41< Ravana_> neverEnough: I did not create creep war. I just slightly modified existing version, and only publicly shared it with 1.11
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20151112 19:08:25< Necrosporus> Is it a unit from Battle for Wesnoth? And what unit it could be? https://i.imgur.com/9YKu03E.png
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20151112 20:02:31< neverEnough> Necrosporus, it reminds a lot a high level drake used in avatars or story messages (but redraw in a different pose)
20151112 20:03:56< neverEnough> Ravana_, nice! it is an awesome map. Sadly i really dislike the creepwar era got khalifates. Why did u do that? They ain't default race 
20151112 20:04:51< Ravana_> I did not.
20151112 20:05:35< Ravana_> Anyways, I would never add simply khalifate to any of my addons, if anything then some mercenaries era factions needs promoting
20151112 20:06:22< Ravana_> creep war is maintained by piezocuttlefish
20151112 20:06:31< neverEnough> Ravana_, oh ok
20151112 20:07:49< neverEnough> if i'll ever reach him, i'll give my remonstration. Damn i can't play it anymore -.-'
20151112 20:08:26< Ravana_> would be simple enough to use replace all on creep war folder, and no more kalifate
20151112 20:08:48< neverEnough> replace all? what u mean?
20151112 20:09:11< neverEnough> (i got no mapmaking skills)
20151112 20:09:16< Ravana_> the units there stored in code as constants
20151112 20:09:45< neverEnough> ah ok, i believe it would be an easy editing, though people downloads the era as in the addon server
20151112 20:10:03< neverEnough> i'm not sure if it's considered a requirement to join such games
20151112 20:10:16< Ravana_> it isn't
20151112 20:10:17< neverEnough> (some addons are required, some not)
20151112 20:10:35< Ravana_> generally only art-adding addons are needed
20151112 20:11:03< celticminstrel> Or add-ons that use require or dofile.
20151112 20:11:09< neverEnough> thx u gave me an "exit option" for when i host. Damn piezo ruined just when other people host :P
20151112 20:11:23< celticminstrel> (Other than for including files in core.)
20151112 20:13:28< celticminstrel> Or am MP campaign that uses extra_defines.
20151112 20:13:37< celticminstrel> Actually, I wonder if that could go on EasyCoding.
20151112 20:13:42< celticminstrel> ^an
20151112 20:15:25< Ravana_> yet if addon wouldn't need download otherwise then generally its not worth to use download-needing lua
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20151112 20:31:08< gfgtdf> shadowm: any opinion on how to handle the unit checksum issue? Do we assume that everyone who wants to play mp campaigns updates to 1.12.5 soon or do we patch something?
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20151112 20:44:21< fabi> How can I store the unit_type a unit advanced into?
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20151112 20:44:57< fabi> s/into/from
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20151112 20:49:40< gfgtdf> fabi: from a unit ingame?
20151112 20:49:54< fabi> yes
20151112 20:49:56< fabi> at runtime
20151112 20:50:14< fabi> but not in the advancement event
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20151112 20:50:25< fabi> in a hex_exit one
20151112 20:50:30< gfgtdf> fabi: you can check the unit id, if the unit was autoatically generated it contains the unit od of the original type
20151112 20:50:41< gfgtdf> s/od/id
20151112 20:51:13< fabi> with [store_unit_type]
20151112 20:51:15< fabi> ?
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20151112 20:51:43< gfgtdf> fabi: i don't know hwo store_unit_type works
20151112 20:51:51< fabi> exactly
20151112 20:51:54< fabi> it is not documented
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20151112 20:52:40< fabi> And I don't see another way than store_unit_type to get the information I need.
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20151112 21:29:29< shadowm> gfgtdf: How can we patch it?
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20151112 21:37:28< shadowm> Also, what else should we expect to be broken besides MP campaigns?
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20151112 21:38:18< shadowm> I guess replays for once, since I had been seeing spurious OOS on SP replays for a while but it didn't occur to me to make the connection to that commit.
20151112 21:38:24< shadowm> *one
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20151112 21:42:35< shadowm> If you want my personal opinion, I'd revert my commit, and release 1.12.6. I'm not really sure what was in my mind when I pushed that to 1.12.
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20151112 21:43:17< shadowm> (Also confirm that that is all that there is that breaks things.)
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20151112 21:50:28< shadowm> Of course, I'd rather go with a solution that doesn't involve bothering all packagers again if there is one.
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20151112 21:54:32< gfgtdf> 20151112 21:29:29< shadowm> gfgtdf: How can we patch it?
20151112 21:54:51< gfgtdf> shadowm: we coudl change to server to remove all unit checksums from received packages.
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20151112 22:20:19< shadowm> gfgtdf: Would that break something else or open up more cheating possibilities, though?
20151112 22:21:35< gfgtdf> shadowm: not really, specialy since it mostlikeley only effects recalling anyway which usualyl onyl happens on mp campaigns.
20151112 22:22:39< gfgtdf> shadowm: at some point in 1.11.x the unit checksun was also checken when recruiting (which i think was to detect changed unit files) but afaik this doesnt happen in 1.12.x
20151112 22:22:41< shadowm> SP replays (and replays in general I guess) will still be pretty noisy though.
20151112 22:24:03< gfgtdf> shadowm: yes, replay in general (execpt replay downloaded replays from replays.wesnoth )
20151112 22:25:24< shadowm> So the options are to patch the server and warn people about replays, or revert the commit and warn people about not using 1.12.54...
20151112 22:25:37< shadowm> 1.12.5.
20151112 22:26:59< gfgtdf> shadowm: we can also patch the client to not show an error on unti checksum mismatch
20151112 22:27:17< shadowm> Yes, but that's more or less equivalent to the second option.
20151112 22:27:44< gfgtdf> shadowm: well the second option woudl cuase imcompabilities between 1.12.5 and 12.6
20151112 22:27:50< shadowm> Same deployment costs, that is.
20151112 22:28:13< shadowm> Which one do _you_ prefer?
20151112 22:29:43< gfgtdf> shadowm: i think patching the server is a good idea but i'm not sure whether it will be easy with simple_wml.
20151112 22:32:25< gfgtdf> shadowm: I dont really like the thought of 1.12.4 beeing 'better' (as in giving less errors) than 1.12.5  so i don't really want to revert it.
20151112 22:33:06< gfgtdf> shadowm: i also dont know how installing/updating works on non-windows so i specially don't know how likeley it is that people update it fast
20151112 22:33:34< shadowm> Even less likely than on Windows (which is already not as likely as it ought to be, due to the download size).
20151112 22:34:06< shadowm> Except for OS X, which for this purpose is equivalent to Windows.
20151112 22:36:35< shadowm> There's people who compile from source and are able to get the update right away, people who get it from distributions following a "stable distribution" model (and probably are stuck with 1.12.1 or 1.12.0 anyway, unless using an optional backports repository), and people who get it from "rolling distributions", which tend to have an update delay depending on various factors.
20151112 22:36:38< gfgtdf> shadowm: i think patching the client (1.12.6) not show a OOS message in this case is rather easy and shoudl be done regardless of what else is done
20151112 22:37:56< shadowm> Yeah, I agree, but we probably should also avoid displaying the warning in stderr or demote it to the info loglevel; otherwise people who look at stderr regularly may keep reporting it as a bug.
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20151112 22:40:57< shadowm> Sigh. I'm really sorry for giving everyone a hard time by inadvertently introducing a new OOS source while touting 1.12.5 as an OOS fix release.
20151112 22:41:49< shadowm> I guess what I didn't realize is that checksumming is done for the entire set of unit data, not piecewise for each tag.
20151112 22:47:27< zookeeper> i'm missing the context, what commit broke things?
20151112 22:48:23 * shadowm hands zookeeper the squeaky hammer.
20151112 22:48:35< zookeeper> i thought it was a _mallet_
20151112 22:48:59-!- irker749 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20151112 22:49:00< irker749> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:gfgtdf-patch-2 d3d86cbcfd07 / src/actions/create.cpp: dont show OOS error on unit checksum mismatch http://git.io/v8jdT
20151112 22:49:04 * shadowm hands zookeeper the squeaky mallet.
20151112 22:49:08< shadowm> zookeeper: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b7e172994fbd84f4896cea93db3a7bee74362ca1
20151112 22:49:30< zookeeper> whoops
20151112 22:50:23< shadowm> The design of this method seems a bit inefficient.
20151112 22:51:16< shadowm> Is config a COW type or not? I always forget.
20151112 22:52:07< gfgtdf> shadowm: copyonwrite? i think its not just just always deepcopying
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20151112 22:52:20< shadowm> Yeah.
20151112 22:52:27< shadowm> s/method/function/
20151112 22:53:21< shadowm> I suppose it doesn't _need_ to be efficient if it's not called for every single operation involving units, but still, we do copy a lot of data to a throwaway config.
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20151112 22:58:01< mattsc> fabi: I don’t have time to stay online or to think about whether this is really what you want, but I wrote a brute force method of getting the type a unit advances from some while ago: 
20151112 22:58:08< mattsc> https://github.com/mattsc/Grnk-git/blob/master/Grnk/lua/advances_from.lua
20151112 22:58:50< mattsc> I also don’t remember right now if it works in general or whether it was simply “good enough” for my campaign.
20151112 22:59:16< mattsc> That’s all.  Bye.
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 13 00:00:16 2015