--- Log opened Mon Nov 30 00:00:23 2015
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20151130 00:25:29< Tulvar> anyone know the best way to reach the user Melon?
20151130 00:26:03< Tulvar> though I suspect their gone, last post was 2009
20151130 00:26:03< shadowm> He's not been around in like half a decade.
20151130 00:26:25< shadowm> Yup.
20151130 00:27:00< shadowm> Best thing you could try is sending him a PM and hoping to get a response within a finite amount of time.
20151130 00:27:30< Tulvar> sad
20151130 00:27:35< Tulvar> Really great spriter
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20151130 01:34:09< zeth> How do I change movement costs for a single unit, do have have to make a whole new unit_type?
20151130 01:34:36< zeth> I tried adding [modifications] to the [side] tag (the unit is the leader) but it didn't work
20151130 01:35:04< zeth> ([modifications][movement_costs] to be precise)
20151130 01:35:45< shadowm> [modifications] takes three possible tags in 1.12: [trait] (unit traits listed on the sidebar), [object] (a proper modification like those usually provided by items), and [advance] (AMLA).
20151130 01:36:00< shadowm> [object] is both a modification and an action that can be used in events: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML#.5Bobject.5D
20151130 01:36:22< shadowm> Like the other two tags, it can contain one or more [effect]s: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EffectWML
20151130 01:36:57< shadowm> There is an effect syntax that sets a unit's movement costs ([effect] apply_to=movement), described in that page.
20151130 01:38:10< shadowm> Also, when [object] is used as part of a unit's [modifications], the unit [filter] is ignored and may be omitted entirely, for more concise syntax.
20151130 01:38:12< zeth> Oh great, sorry I read those pages before but I was too dumb to realise they applied here. 
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20151130 01:39:26< shadowm> No worries, this info is not really presented in the most convenient format anyway, so most people struggle with it at first.
20151130 01:40:55< zeth> Doing WML reminds me of once I had to use TCL
20151130 01:41:22< zeth> Being string based but also it carrying on despite erros
20151130 01:41:26< shadowm> Also, [movement_costs] _can_ be provided as a sibling (not child) of [modifications], but the reason most people would use a trait or object with an appropriate effect instead is that direct changes like that may be lost later of the unit advances or gains an AMLA.
20151130 01:41:39< zeth> Normally am I used to C and Python where if it is not perfect, the whole thing dies in flames.
20151130 01:42:33< shadowm> Yeah, WML is too lenient most of the time and the engine will happily ignore stuff it doesn't expect to see.
20151130 01:45:12< shadowm> This tends to result in highly frustrating debug sessions for us add-on authors, especially when the cause is a simple typo that's easy to overlook.
20151130 01:45:15< zeth> So I am not sure I understand this. I have [object][effect][movement_costs] does that seem correct?
20151130 01:46:04< shadowm> Yes, though the [effect] needs to have the apply_to=movement_costs attribute (and optionally replace=yes/no (default no)).
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20151130 01:49:37< zeth> Okay not working yet. I have apply_to=movement_costs inside [effect]
20151130 01:49:57< zeth> Then I still have [movement_costs], am I on the right track?
20151130 01:50:11< shadowm> Yes.
20151130 01:50:28< zeth> Then inside that I have id=Ur and terrain=20
20151130 01:50:43< shadowm> Yeah, that's not the movement costs table syntax.
20151130 01:51:10< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UnitsWML#.5Bmovetype.5D -- the [movement_costs] tag is a table of <terrain_id>=<cost> values.
20151130 01:52:00< shadowm> The terrain id is not the terrain code you'd normally see on the map file or use for filtering, but rather a longer string like 'flat' (all flat terrains), 'frozen' (snow/ice terrains), etc.
20151130 01:52:26< shadowm> data/core/units.cfg has a lot of examples.
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20151130 01:54:23< zeth> so the simpliest thing to do is to change my map?
20151130 01:54:57< shadowm> Hm, no, using movement costs is not that difficult, really.
20151130 01:55:18< zeth> I made a spider web but the spider keeps running off the web tiles (despite being a guardian), the web tiles and the road are both flat 
20151130 01:55:49< shadowm> There are only about a dozen possible terrain ids. For movement cost and resistance calculation, all terrains use the stats of each terrain's ancestor.
20151130 01:56:07< zeth> When the first player unit turns up it will work its way down the player's line, attacking everything.
20151130 01:56:09< shadowm> For example, all grassland and dirt and road terrains inherit from a hidden 'flat' terrain, so their stats are the same as 'flat'.
20151130 01:56:13< zeth> I want it to stay on the web
20151130 01:56:31< zeth> so if I make the web not flat or make the area around not flat, then that is how I do it?
20151130 01:57:21< zeth> I was trying to price the spider out of leaving the web
20151130 01:57:28< zeth> is there a simplier way?
20151130 01:57:44< shadowm> Well, yes, you'll have to come up with a terrain layout that allows you to keep the spider constrained in that case.
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20151130 02:02:15< zeth> Ok, I made the web tiles as hills
20151130 02:02:23< zeth> Now I got to make the spider hate flat
20151130 02:04:10< zeth> Sorry my understanding runs much slower than your typing
20151130 02:04:31< zeth> I am now trying with flat=50 inside movement_costs inside effect inside object inside side.
20151130 02:05:36< shadowm> [object] goes in [modifications].
20151130 02:07:41< zeth> Ok, great I think that works
20151130 02:07:47< zeth> Thanks very much
20151130 02:08:58< zeth> Yep, when you run onto the road, the spider just stands on the edge of the web
20151130 02:09:03< zeth> angrily looking at you
20151130 02:09:36< zeth> Brill
20151130 02:11:20< zeth> Thanks shadowm
20151130 02:11:28< celticminstrel> I think you can also invent a new terrain id, but I'm not quite sure how that's done.
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20151130 02:12:38< zeth> Necessity is the mother of invention :) Now web being hills means the spider gets 60% defence instead of 30% which is good.
20151130 02:13:13< shadowm> celticminstrel: Orphans.
20151130 02:13:32< celticminstrel> Ah.
20151130 02:14:00< celticminstrel> So basically, no aliasof=
20151130 02:14:09< shadowm> If a terrain doesn't inherit from any other terrain, it's considered a base terrain (as in other terrains being able to derive from it, not base vs. overlay).
20151130 02:14:21< shadowm> Exactly.
20151130 02:14:50< celticminstrel> ...can a terrain have a movement alias but no defence alias and thus only work for movement costs...?
20151130 02:15:30< shadowm> That's an excellent question.
20151130 02:15:38< shadowm> Meaning I don't know the answer. :p
20151130 02:15:51< fabi> celticminstrel: How would that work?
20151130 02:16:19 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20151130 02:16:40< fabi> Do you want to define a terrain that is a parent for mixed ones but this defines only movement costs?
20151130 02:17:14< fabi> Then you can make the derrived terrain using only the better one for defense and set the base terrain to the worst value possible
20151130 02:17:30< celticminstrel> It was just something I randomly wondered, not something I was actually trying to do.
20151130 02:19:12< fabi> You can use an alias for defense that is different from the movement alias
20151130 02:19:42< fabi> Meaning a terrain can behave like a mix of forest and water when it comes to movement (mangroove maybe)
20151130 02:20:09< celticminstrel> I know, so that's why I wondered if you can use one of those and omit the other, thus making it a base terrain in one situation but not in the other.
20151130 02:20:11< fabi> but be a child of swamp and mountain when it comes to defense values
20151130 02:20:25< fabi> yes that is also possible
20151130 02:20:29< celticminstrel> ...I like the mangrove idea.
20151130 02:20:33< shadowm> aliasof technically sets the default def|mvt|vision_alias I believe.
20151130 02:21:07< fabi> celticminstrel: yeah, their has been some artwork effords made for it already...
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20151130 02:21:15< fabi> after I suggested it
20151130 02:21:21< fabi> years ago
20151130 02:21:58< shadowm> Link?
20151130 02:22:14< shadowm> Not that I have a use for tropical terrains anymore, sadly.
20151130 02:23:55< fabi> celticminstrel: Of course the defense value of mangroove would not be a mix between mountain and swamp :-)
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20151130 02:24:58< celticminstrel> Well, yeah.
20151130 02:24:58< zeth> I think if I finish my campaign then later I can had a joke feature of that if you are killed by the spider, you see another webbed up body on the web. But would require make 20 more webbed up units. 
20151130 02:25:11< zeth> with the correct heads
20151130 02:25:12< shadowm> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=546632#p546632 ?
20151130 02:25:22< fabi> I guess movement would be worse of swamp and forest.
20151130 02:25:22< celticminstrel> Do you have a link handy, fabi?
20151130 02:25:28< fabi> While defense can be best of swamp and forest
20151130 02:25:32< celticminstrel> Hmm. Maybe.
20151130 02:25:53< fabi> celticminstrel: Sorry, no. I have not bookmarked it.
20151130 02:26:17< shadowm> http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=60451&mode=view
20151130 02:26:23< celticminstrel> Those mangroves (first link) somehow don't match the style of the other forests.
20151130 02:26:34< celticminstrel> Oh, both links are the same, I guess.
20151130 02:27:01< shadowm> I think it's a combination of two factors:
20151130 02:27:32< shadowm> 1) shadow angle  2) no transition to water (so they look like they are floating above water in the air)
20151130 02:28:23< shadowm> The shadows' angle in particular makes them look like they are overlaid on the map rather than part of it.
20151130 02:28:37< celticminstrel> Looks like he never followed up on all the criticism. At least, not in the same thread.
20151130 02:28:53< shadowm> But now I realized that my crappy connection still hasn't loaded several images later down the page.
20151130 02:30:48< shadowm> Oh never mind, I was already looking at the latest images and somehow went back to page 2 afterwards.
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20151130 02:46:19< zeth> When an ulfserker fights an adept, the sound effect is perfect. 
20151130 02:46:39< zeth> Whomever made that was a genius
20151130 02:47:13< shadowm> Heh. I wish I didn't have that spoiled for me.
20151130 02:47:52< zeth> Ooo sorry, I assumed you were all 10-year wesnoth experts who have seen everything :) 
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20151130 02:48:21< shadowm> No, I mean that years ago I wasn't aware that the sound was actually used in mainline, then someone told me what it was for.
20151130 02:49:04< zeth> Ah okay, I found it out in play. Made me crack up.
20151130 02:50:16< shadowm> It did manage to startle me some years later anyway, late at night.
20151130 02:56:46< fabi> zeth: AI0876 used to scare other visitors of the FOSDEM in 2012. That was great fun. What surprised me during development some years ago: I was listening to radio rivendell, a webradio broadcasting all sort of fantasy themed music.
20151130 02:57:06< fabi> zeth: AI used to scare other visitors with the berserker's laugh.
20151130 02:57:17< zeth> Nice
20151130 02:57:25< fabi> Then suddenly radio rivendel started to play a wesnoth tune.
20151130 02:57:30< zeth> I never been to FOSDEM, I keep thinking of it
20151130 02:57:37< zeth> Nice, well the music is very nice
20151130 02:57:58< zeth> While making this campaign I also watched return of the jedi and forgot to turn wesnoth off. 
20151130 02:57:59< fabi> I first thought it was me messign with the music code 
20151130 02:58:18< fabi> took me some time to get that not wesnoth is playign that tune
20151130 02:58:30< zeth> Watched the whole Luke Vs Vader scene without realising it was wesnoth music not the star wars music
20151130 02:58:36< fabi> hihi
20151130 02:58:49< fabi> zeth: We will meet at next years FOSDEM again.
20151130 02:58:55< fabi> Do you want to join us there?
20151130 02:59:09< celticminstrel> Would that sound also be used if an ulfserker fights a mudcrawler?
20151130 02:59:48< fabi> celticminstrel: Why should it?
20151130 02:59:59< celticminstrel> Because mudcrawlers also don't have a melee attack.
20151130 03:00:03< fabi> Doesn't have the mudcrawler have a melee attack?
20151130 03:00:03< zeth> does mudcrawler have no melee attach?
20151130 03:00:10< fabi> :-)
20151130 03:00:16< celticminstrel> Only the giant mudcrawler does.
20151130 03:00:17< shadowm> L0 mudcralwers don't, L1s do.
20151130 03:00:20< zeth> great minds thing alike
20151130 03:00:29< celticminstrel> Yeah that.
20151130 03:00:31< shadowm> (The UtBS version of the L0 does as well, but that doesn't count.)
20151130 03:00:56< celticminstrel> Huh.
20151130 03:00:56< celticminstrel> I should still play UtBS someday.
20151130 03:01:16< celticminstrel> I might be a bit turned away by its classification as "hard", though...
20151130 03:01:28< shadowm> It's not hard at all.
20151130 03:01:38< zeth> Yes he makes the sound against mudcrawler
20151130 03:01:44< shadowm> At least not in the first two difficulty levels, anyway.
20151130 03:01:46< zeth> Just tested it
20151130 03:02:04< fabi> zeth: Why don't have a look at the code?
20151130 03:02:12< fabi> that is faster than testing
20151130 03:02:20< zeth> I had a scenario with mudcrawler open
20151130 03:02:27< fabi> :-)
20151130 03:02:33< zeth> debug mode - stick a dwarf next to him
20151130 03:04:56< fabi> celticminstrel: The warning on UtBS is more about different game mechanics.
20151130 03:05:43< fabi> Meaning non mainline units. And a different time of day schedule.
20151130 03:06:05< fabi> Although it is quite mild compared to what is on the addon server nowadays.
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20151130 03:12:40< shadowm> UtBS is actually the first campaign I ever completed without cheating.
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20151130 03:18:24< shadowm> I miss those times, when Wesnoth felt like a true masterpiece I could admire and observe and lick and touch without feeling the urge to complain about minor details that nobody really cares about.
20151130 03:18:52< vultraz> True, dat
20151130 03:19:11< shadowm> When the art of UMC making seemed like an art.
20151130 03:19:35< shadowm> And I didn't have two original campaigns to take care of.
20151130 03:20:13< shadowm> Eh no, actually, I think I prefer feeling like a god with the users at my mercy.
20151130 03:20:24< zeth> Really interesting article in the last Raspberry Pi magazine, I think it applies to a lot of open source projects
20151130 03:20:43< shadowm> Throwing luck-based missions at them and watching them writhe in pain in the bowels of the earth.
20151130 03:21:02< zeth> The Raspberry Pi bloke was talking to eric schmidt from Google
20151130 03:21:15< zeth> or the latter was advising the former
20151130 03:22:12< zeth> About how eventually, free or almost free wins, so the Raspberry Pi project shouldn't try to make high end devices 
20151130 03:22:27< zeth> it was said better in the magazine
20151130 03:22:39< zeth> which is probably why they don't put me in charge of Google
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20151130 03:28:09< zeth> Thanks for chatting, Good night
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20151130 04:57:29< That_Guy> im at a hotspot and it logs me out once every hour or so, and then i log back in... however my games keep disconnecting when i lose conection and change my mac address... i was wondering if there was any way(dev help pls) too reconnect with a different mac to the same game i was in before... i tested stopping my process(wesnoth) and restarting it and it seems to reconnect fine, but when i change my mac address then everything screws up
20151130 04:57:54< That_Guy> is there any way to remedy this? and perhaps attempt to reconnect from a different location?
20151130 04:58:08< That_Guy> or is it designed out of security so you cant do this?
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20151130 12:06:29< Tulvar> aeonchild, what you up to?
20151130 12:06:58< aeonchild> starting to fall asleep I think
20151130 12:07:10< Tulvar> ah lucky you
20151130 12:07:22< Tulvar> i'm on a night of an overactive mind
20151130 12:07:51< aeonchild> Mine keeps going to places I don't want it to be but I think I'll still fall asleep thankfully
20151130 12:07:58< aeonchild> i'm just a litlte scared of what dreams I might have
20151130 12:08:15< Tulvar> I don't tend to sleep on nights like that
20151130 12:08:39< Tulvar> As those trends for me are too predictable as to how the dreamtime will look
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 01 00:00:24 2015