--- Log opened Fri Dec 04 00:00:10 2015
20151204 00:00:12-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20151204 00:05:10< shadowm> Yeah.
20151204 00:11:02-!- ancestral [~ancestral@209.181.254.220] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20151204 00:16:02< shadowm> ancestral: By the way, there's a specific reason I wanted you and loonycyborg to look at the email.
20151204 00:17:00< shadowm> The reason is whether you have the ability to work on the packages over the second or third weekends this month, or you have different plans that'd conflict with that.
20151204 00:17:29< celticminstrel> Abilities and weapon specials are full of filters... I wonder if it's safe to just omit them...
20151204 00:17:57< ancestral> shadowm I am unavailable from the 21st through the 28th, but otherwise, I will be around
20151204 00:18:10< fabi> celticminstrel: May I ask what you are working on?
20151204 00:18:19< shadowm> Ah, good.
20151204 00:18:52< celticminstrel> fabi: Eliminating all the unnecessary info about units that's saved in saved games.
20151204 00:18:55< shadowm> Since nobody has raised any objections I guess we'll go with the  11th in order to be able to merge sdl2 ASAP.
20151204 00:19:39< fabi> celticminstrel: To reduce their footprint?
20151204 00:19:44< celticminstrel> Yes.
20151204 00:20:11< fabi> I am thinking about the same thing on the Irdya game server.
20151204 00:20:23< shadowm> In good part there's a lot of redundant info because we kind of sort of allow people to perform certain modifications on units directly because they aren't all supported by [effect].
20151204 00:20:45< shadowm> For example, [effect] doesn't allow changing a singular unit's level, direct alteration of the WML does.
20151204 00:21:09< celticminstrel> My approach is roughly "save it only if it's different from the base".
20151204 00:21:26< shadowm> If [effect] supported everything we could really only store identification data and have really lightweight unit nodes.
20151204 00:21:29< fabi> base == being a unit type?
20151204 00:21:35< celticminstrel> No fabi.
20151204 00:21:40< celticminstrel> The "base" is the unit obtained by taking the base unit type (including variation and gender) and applying any modifications.
20151204 00:22:08< fabi> I see.
20151204 00:22:11< celticminstrel> So, changes resulting from modifications won't be duplicated by storing both the modification and the result of it.
20151204 00:22:49< fabi> Why not using the unit_type as base?
20151204 00:23:24< celticminstrel> Well, I am using the unit type as a base, but then also applying gender, variation, and modifications to get the base to compare against.
20151204 00:23:56< celticminstrel> Gender, variation, and modifications can easily be reapplied at load time.
20151204 00:24:22< fabi> So all of the [attack]s for example would not be in the savefile of they don't differ from the unit_type, right?
20151204 00:24:30< celticminstrel> So there's no need to store anything other than the unit type, which gender it is (ie, male or female), the variation name, and the list of modifications.
20151204 00:24:54< celticminstrel> The attacks should be omitted if they don't differ from the "base", even if they do differ from the unit_type.
20151204 00:25:08< fabi> oh
20151204 00:25:10< fabi> that works
20151204 00:25:32< celticminstrel> In practice, the attacks will nearly always differ from the unit type, you know. :P
20151204 00:25:38< celticminstrel> Because of traits.
20151204 00:25:49< fabi> hmmm
20151204 00:26:19< celticminstrel> ...or at least, very frequently. I guess it's possible to have both traits not affecting the attacks.
20151204 00:26:32< fabi> Okay, depends on how traits are implemented. I am already thinking to much in Wesmere and not Wesnoth anymore.
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20151204 00:27:13< celticminstrel> Traits are modifications, so the "base" has them already applied.
20151204 00:28:18< fabi> Currently Wesnoth should be able to load a savefile without having the addon shipping the units installed, right?
20151204 00:28:28< shadowm> No.
20151204 00:28:33< fabi> If there is no extra artwork, sounds, images used.
20151204 00:28:54< celticminstrel> The host (who does have the addon installed) would need to load the savefile in that case.
20151204 00:29:00< shadowm> You get the "Unknown unit type" error and get quit back to the title screen/lobby.
20151204 00:31:44< fabi> Since I don't bother to produce extra safefiles but just dump the (lua interpreter) environment in which the scenario code is executed to disc, I don't have much implementation to work on.
20151204 00:32:00< fabi> Still keeping them small might be nice.
20151204 00:32:21< fabi> So I will keep an eye of what you do, maybe I can catch some inspiration :-)
20151204 00:32:28< celticminstrel> I'm not sure what to do with unit abilities and weapon specials though.
20151204 00:32:48< shadowm> Same as with [attack]?
20151204 00:33:33< celticminstrel> I suppose I could use the config diffing feature and actually write the resulting diff directly...
20151204 00:34:33< shadowm> I tend to think the best way is to disallow direct modification of most attributes and not worry about diffing.
20151204 00:36:17< celticminstrel> I could assume the specials and abilities are never changed by direct modification and just omit them altogether.
20151204 00:36:35< celticminstrel> Or I coud do the opposite and include them regardless of whether they've changed.
20151204 00:36:59< celticminstrel> Or I could do some sort of diffing thing.
20151204 00:37:29< fabi> I wonder if producing human readable savefiles isn't a relict. 
20151204 00:37:33< celticminstrel> I think I've seen specials or abilities being deleted by direct access (and possibly added?), but I don't recall ever seeing them modified.
20151204 00:37:34< shadowm> The problem with diffing is that it'd increase save time a lot.
20151204 00:37:58< celticminstrel> I'm already using diffing, actually... but I deleted all children, so it only diffs the attributes, which wouldn't take as long.
20151204 00:38:02< shadowm> Consider turn-by-turn autosaves, and some of the most ludicrous add-ons out there unit-count-wise.
20151204 00:38:23< fabi> Like human readable mapfiles.
20151204 00:38:24< celticminstrel> Is it reasonable to assume specials and abilities are never changed by direct access, though?
20151204 00:38:39< celticminstrel> fabi: What do you mean by "human readable".
20151204 00:38:42< shadowm> I propose not assuming, but rather enforcing.
20151204 00:38:46< fabi> They made a lot sense back, when no editor existed and terrain was described by a single letter.
20151204 00:39:04< fabi> celticminstrel: You basically produce wml and write it into a savefile.
20151204 00:39:15< celticminstrel> That's what's done right now, isn't it?
20151204 00:39:22< fabi> This is what I call human readable.
20151204 00:39:24< fabi> right
20151204 00:39:35< fabi> And I think that is a relict.
20151204 00:40:02< shadowm> It's gzipped by default, though.
20151204 00:40:36< celticminstrel> shadowm: Okay, so how would this be enforced, then?
20151204 00:40:56< celticminstrel> fabi: I don't know what you mean by "relict". Unless you mean "relic"...
20151204 00:40:59< shadowm> "We no longer allow modifying xyz attributes/nodes directly, use [effect] instead."
20151204 00:41:10< shadowm> If someone tries it just has no effect.
20151204 00:41:19< fabi> Yeah, sorry for ma English.
20151204 00:41:25< celticminstrel> Okay, there are two ways they could try that I know of...
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20151204 00:41:32< celticminstrel> store/unstor, or modify_unit.
20151204 00:41:35< celticminstrel> ^+e
20151204 00:41:57< shadowm> [modify_unit] is syntactic sugar built on top of the same mechanism, really.
20151204 00:41:59< fabi> celticminstrel: Ah, no. My dictonary says relict is right.
20151204 00:42:03< celticminstrel> So, getting modify_unit to ignore [abilities] and [specials] is possible.
20151204 00:42:32< fabi> I mean stuff that made sense back when my grandpa fought in world war 2.
20151204 00:43:09< gfgtdf> i dont rally think that attacks and such take a lof of space in teh safeile
20151204 00:43:23< shadowm> I guess the problem is that this would either overcomplicate [modify_unit]'s implementation or cripple it substantially... Hm.
20151204 00:43:32< gfgtdf> specialyl when they are not changed, the unit types usualy only haev a few attacks
20151204 00:44:09< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Uh, they take up probably ~20 lines per unit, and quite a bit more if they have specials.
20151204 00:44:10< gfgtdf> what takes muhc more spae ate for exampel all those variaations that are stored in the savefile (for walking corpes for example)
20151204 00:44:13< fabi> gfgtdf: Hello. I wonder if you overtake the maintainance of LoW or just doing some bugfixing. I would like to see my old stuff adopted by competent hands. 
20151204 00:44:50< shadowm> gfgtdf: The thing is that nothing takes up that much space on disk with compression on. It's the process of producing that WML that'd benefit the most from some trimming.
20151204 00:44:51< celticminstrel> modify_unit uses unstore_unit, right? So I could have unstore_unit somehow never alter abilities or specials...
20151204 00:45:04< gfgtdf> fabi: im currently just doing some bugfixing, 
20151204 00:45:31< gfgtdf> fabi: i am not really good in making story or dialogues so i dont really think i can taker over a mainline campaign easily.
20151204 00:45:46< fabi> Well
20151204 00:46:11< fabi> story and dialogues, I had esr for. 
20151204 00:46:32< shadowm> We have people able to help with that, don't worry.
20151204 00:46:39< celticminstrel> I don't think [effect] can actually change existing abilities or specials, only add or remove them.
20151204 00:46:48< fabi> So if that holds I am no longer a proper maintainer since he left (or was left).
20151204 00:47:03< celticminstrel> I don't think I've ever heard of anyone changing abilities or specials, though, so that might not be a problem.
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20151204 00:47:38< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: actually i think changing specialy is what people often want to do but its rather complicated
20151204 00:47:58< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: for exmple you can not only change the value=, you must also change teh desciption text
20151204 00:48:16< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: so you cannot easiyl implenet a [effect] to change teh value of an ability
20151204 00:48:17< shadowm> It's generally easier to use [effect] to change data one or two tags deeper in my experience.
20151204 00:48:19< celticminstrel> As far as I know, people tend to treat specials as "black boxes", probably because they're usually hidden behind a macro.
20151204 00:48:34< celticminstrel> shadowm: I'm not sure what you mean by that?
20151204 00:48:41< celticminstrel> ^specials and abilities
20151204 00:48:47< shadowm> Adding/removing specials and abilities.
20151204 00:50:07< celticminstrel> Still confused.
20151204 00:50:16< shadowm> Generally, while you can do it directly you are not supposed to assume anything about their order, especially if [object] and [advance[ment]] modifications get involved.
20151204 00:50:57< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20151204 00:51:01< shadowm> So it's much easier to add or remove them without regard to the existing order by using [effect], which either adds specials/abilities at the end of the set, or removes them by identifying tag and id attribute.
20151204 00:51:30< celticminstrel> And rather than modifying them directly, it's easier to remove one and add an altered one, right?
20151204 00:51:41< shadowm> Yes.
20151204 00:51:59< celticminstrel> So I guess I could just ignore them for the purpose of saved games.
20151204 00:52:21< celticminstrel> Their definitions are stored in the unit type, after all. (Or in a modification.)
20151204 00:52:23< shadowm> And altering an ability is already quite questionable in practice, because odds are you are changing some aspect that's part of its effects.
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20151204 00:52:52< shadowm> Effects which are described in a description that's assumed to be unique and global to all units with that ability, esp. for the help system.
20151204 00:53:36< shadowm> So you probably wouldn't have two units with the "regenerates" ability displaying completely different behavior, for example.
20151204 00:53:44< celticminstrel> It would probably be better if abilities and specials were defined at [units] toplevel and just referenced from the unit.
20151204 00:54:02< fabi> gfgtdf: So let me ask again, do you like to takeover LoW? Assuming you have with the prose.
20151204 00:54:18< fabi> s/have with/have help with
20151204 00:54:26< gfgtdf> fabi: hm idk yet.
20151204 00:55:04< fabi> :-(
20151204 00:55:08< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i still think it would be better to have a look at the variation first, make a mp scenario recruit a Walking corpe and a skeleton and compate their sides in savefiles
20151204 00:55:19< gfgtdf> sizes*
20151204 00:55:27< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: I'll look at that too.
20151204 00:55:56< celticminstrel> But is that really an issue? Variations aren't part of a unit. They're only part of a unit_type.
20151204 00:56:47< celticminstrel> I should omit [advancement] tags, I guess...
20151204 00:56:56< celticminstrel> (Toplevel ones, not ones under [modifications])
20151204 00:57:19< fabi> celticminstrel: Aren't technically variations just unit_types. I had my hands spoiling unit_type wml reading a little.
20151204 00:57:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: iirc calking corpes take x10 the size if a normal units becasue of the variations
20151204 00:57:36< gfgtdf> walking*
20151204 00:57:38< fabi> iirc variations are compiled into unit types.
20151204 00:57:49< fabi> at wml reading
20151204 00:57:57< gfgtdf> fabi: i also thought so
20151204 00:57:59< celticminstrel> I think a variation works basically the same as extending a unit with [base_unit].
20151204 00:58:01< fabi> so they would never reach a safefile anyway
20151204 00:58:10< gfgtdf> fabi: mabye we coudl just somply remove them from savefiles?
20151204 00:58:18< celticminstrel> Except it doesn't produce a separate unit_type.
20151204 01:00:03< celticminstrel> There seem to be events saved as well.
20151204 01:00:32< fabi> I guess the difference is that variations can be switched more easily than unit types.
20151204 01:00:39< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: it is very possible and often done that wml/lua creates abilities/waepons epcials dynamicaly so refecting then at toplevel wouldnt work for them
20151204 01:00:58< celticminstrel> I think switching a variation probably works identically to switching a unit_type.
20151204 01:01:51< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: I haven't seen that much, except maybe the leadership ability (but that's no longer the case) and the plague ability.
20151204 01:02:15< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: still people do that
20151204 01:02:38< celticminstrel> Referencing them could still allow it though.
20151204 01:02:54< celticminstrel> You'd create the new ability and add it to the list of known ones, then reference it.
20151204 01:03:14< celticminstrel> I have no plans at this point to actually do that kind of refactoring though.
20151204 01:03:19< fabi> gfgtdf: Well, I would go and get rid of human readable savefiles and dump some interpreter state.
20151204 01:03:45< fabi> That solves a lot of problems.
20151204 01:03:53< fabi> And is easy to implement.
20151204 01:04:00< celticminstrel> It could also create problems.
20151204 01:04:02< shadowm> Except for the need for a live patching equivalent.
20151204 01:04:14< fabi> celticminstrel: Which ones?
20151204 01:04:19< celticminstrel> There are two main problems with binary files.
20151204 01:04:35< fabi> Lua binaries are platform independent.
20151204 01:04:37< celticminstrel> 1) Their layout may depend on the machine you compiled the game on.
20151204 01:04:51< fabi> Lua binaries are platform independent.
20151204 01:05:05< celticminstrel> 2) On some platforms, if you're not careful, the data could be corrupted on read/write.
20151204 01:05:23< gfgtdf> fabi: Our main datastructures are not lua, 
20151204 01:05:24< fabi> Also not true for the solution I choosed.
20151204 01:05:31< celticminstrel> We can't just dump Lua state, because the Lua state is a tiny fraction of the gamestate.
20151204 01:05:46< gfgtdf> fabi: also we have already teh code for reading them from wml its just cheap to use tehn also to red savefiles
20151204 01:05:51< celticminstrel> fabi: #2 is true for all binary files.
20151204 01:06:14< celticminstrel> If Lua has its own functions to read and write these dumps, then it probably already takes the proper care, though.
20151204 01:06:34< fabi> yes
20151204 01:06:44< celticminstrel> (Basically, on Windows, if you forget to open the file in binary mode, the data may be corrupted.)
20151204 01:06:49< fabi> I mean, I have thought all of them through very well.
20151204 01:07:12< fabi> Working on my project for about half a year now.
20151204 01:07:21< celticminstrel> Dumping the Lua state is actually not unreasonable, the only question is where to dump it to.
20151204 01:07:24< fabi> And tested it 
20151204 01:07:43< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i really dont think 'programmersmight  forgot to open file in binary mode' i an issue
20151204 01:08:05< celticminstrel> It's an issue that you need to worry about when writing your code to handle these files.
20151204 01:08:16< celticminstrel> And it's an issue that you never need to worry about if you use text files.
20151204 01:08:26< celticminstrel> Note that text files are not necessarily human-readable, though.
20151204 01:08:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: you also need to open the files in text mode if tehy are text files..
20151204 01:08:34< shadowm> You'll write your code once and then proceed to forget about it.
20151204 01:08:39< celticminstrel> Yes.
20151204 01:08:44< shadowm> I really don't see how it's a concern.
20151204 01:08:52< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: If they're text files, it'll work regardless of whether you open it in binary mode.
20151204 01:09:18< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: also this is really  related to the c++ language not teh teh files itself
20151204 01:09:21< celticminstrel> But non-binary is the default, so it's not something to worry about.
20151204 01:09:24< celticminstrel> Well yes.
20151204 01:10:01< celticminstrel> Issue #2 is pretty minor, anyway. Issue #1 is the one you'd really need to worry about.
20151204 01:10:37< fabi> The biggest problem I see is that people no longer can inspect the savefiles to get an idea about the game state.
20151204 01:10:50< shadowm> Or to patch it.
20151204 01:10:54< fabi> Although that "feature" is more a lack of better ways to do it.
20151204 01:11:31< celticminstrel> Both issues are solvable, of course.
20151204 01:12:08< celticminstrel> I don't see any benefits of switching to a binary save format, though.
20151204 01:12:25< shadowm> Really the most important thing that Wesnoth lacks is the ability to update events when you make a change in a scenario mid-game.
20151204 01:13:02< shadowm> You don't want to re-play 30 turns just to see whether your cutscene code fix works.
20151204 01:13:53< shadowm> Okay, sure, there's :fire/:throw and stuff nowadays, but what if the testing relies on more specific conditions that'd be a PITA to recreate by hand?
20151204 01:14:04< celticminstrel> It should be possible to do this, since the replay data is stored in the savegame...
20151204 01:14:13< gfgtdf> shadowm: with lua you dont have that problem since wesnoth.dofile() load teh files evrytime fresh from disk
20151204 01:14:26< gfgtdf> shadowm: y or using te replay
20151204 01:14:34< celticminstrel> But my impression is that the replay data isn't actually used when loading?
20151204 01:14:42< celticminstrel> Instead, it loads from a snapshot.
20151204 01:14:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes but you can play teh replay
20151204 01:15:09< shadowm> Correct, right now you can edit the snapshot's copy of the events and reload that save.
20151204 01:15:33< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: and then save st the end of the replay (although that migth be broken in 1.12)
20151204 01:15:49< shadowm> The current "solution" is not very convenient when macros or large amounts of code are involved, though.
20151204 01:16:00< celticminstrel> The snapshot is not actually required, is it? It's more of a shortcut?
20151204 01:16:14< celticminstrel> So adding an option to ignore it might be useful.
20151204 01:16:20< gfgtdf> shadowm: it is required when loading the savefile
20151204 01:16:25< gfgtdf> celticminstrel  i meant
20151204 01:16:27< shadowm> I mean, you could make the game internally replay all 50 turns every time.
20151204 01:16:28< celticminstrel> Though if you've changed events, you could also get replay errors, right?
20151204 01:16:43< shadowm> But I'm not sure how that'd be preferable to the snapshot.
20151204 01:16:53< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: how do you mean?
20151204 01:17:05< celticminstrel> I don't have a problem with the snapshot in general.
20151204 01:17:40< gfgtdf> shadowm: most of my addons use a lot of lua and only a few [event] so i never had that problem.
20151204 01:17:53< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: If you change events in the scenario and then watch the replay, it's possible to get replay errors, isn't it? We'll assume here that it's a replay save with no snapshot.
20151204 01:17:58< shadowm> gfgtdf: Admittedly, this is why nowadays I tend to write more complex logic using custom WML tags implemented in Lua, yes.
20151204 01:18:30< shadowm> If something breaks I can just quickly patch the Lua and reload to test my changes.
20151204 01:18:39< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: the replay will usually replay teh game from [replay_start] using [replay] in the savefile
20151204 01:18:49< shadowm> But if we are talking of saving the entire interpreter state to disk, doesn't that mean that that too would have to go?
20151204 01:19:07< fabi> Very inspiring speech in here today. 
20151204 01:19:11< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: the [snapshot] is used when loading the savegame normally
20151204 01:19:50< fabi> I get a lot of ideas and points for my TODO list.
20151204 01:20:19< shadowm> I mean, I understand it, the interpreter state includes things such as all variables (e.g. wesnoth.wml_actions).
20151204 01:20:56< shadowm> If we'd save and load it from disk, then wouldn't we necessarily have to ignore the code it was originally generated from?
20151204 01:21:10< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: which reminds me of this fr: http://gna.org/bugs/?23353
20151204 01:21:50< celticminstrel> In theory it's probably possible to include functions in the interpreter state dump, but I wonder if that's safe when those functions are implemented in C(++)...
20151204 01:22:07< shadowm> Eh no.
20151204 01:22:27< fabi> celticminstrel: Iceiceice nearly converted every actionWML to lua by now.
20151204 01:22:27< shadowm> In that case they'd be pointers, right? That obviously wouldn't work across different platforms or binaries.
20151204 01:23:12< celticminstrel> fabi: That's not really true. There's still a lot of ActionWML that are implemented in C++. And it's not the WML tags that are really worrisome, it's the API functions in wesnoth.*
20151204 01:23:29< celticminstrel> shadowm: Yeah, I think they'd be pointers, so I suspect it wouldn't be safe.
20151204 01:23:38< fabi> Why would you like to dump them?
20151204 01:23:40< shadowm> Presumably you just exclude that kind of thing from serialization.
20151204 01:23:59< celticminstrel> fabi: You said "dump the interpreter state". The wesnoth table is part of that interpreter state.
20151204 01:24:09< fabi> well
20151204 01:24:11< celticminstrel> But yeah, it's something you would want to exclude.
20151204 01:24:25< fabi> the interpreter which executes the event handlers
20151204 01:24:29< fabi> but yes
20151204 01:24:38< fabi> Wesnoth is not ready for that.
20151204 01:25:10< celticminstrel> Perhaps it would be safe if the wesnoth table were a userdata rather than a table.
20151204 01:26:23< fabi> If you move *every* game mechanic into Lua space everything becomes so easy.
20151204 01:27:02< fabi> And accesible for UMC designers more easily.
20151204 01:27:19< fabi> But I do not want to propose that.
20151204 01:27:20< shadowm> How large would the Lua interpreter be in that case, though? :p
20151204 01:27:25< shadowm> *interpreter state
20151204 01:28:18< shadowm> If there's a way to exclude specific things from serialization then the issue with C++ functions ceases to exist.
20151204 01:28:39< shadowm> Because we surely don't want every save defining how combat and movement works, right?
20151204 01:29:03< shadowm> (In this parallel dimension where Lua defines core gameplay aspects like those.)
20151204 01:33:36< shadowm> fabi: Thoughts about this?
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20151204 01:35:13< shadowm> Okay, fine, you probably still don't believe I'm genuinely interested in this. It's not nice to ignore parts of your intended audience, though.
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20151204 01:36:51< fabi> Dumped to disc is only the "Environment" you execute event handlers (actionWSL) in.
20151204 01:37:09< fabi> This is completely enough to load/save a Wesmere scenario state.
20151204 01:37:21< fabi> "Environment" is a fixed term in that case.
20151204 01:38:02< fabi> The Lua manual explains it nicely.
20151204 01:38:22< vultraz> What's going on here
20151204 01:38:32< fabi> A savefile is smaller than current Wesnoth savefiles.
20151204 01:38:39< fabi> hi vultraz
20151204 01:40:18< shadowm> Ah, so it is possible to juggle multiple separate states around.
20151204 01:43:05< fabi> I guess I am a pure Lua developer now. C++ seems so alienating in the meantime.
20151204 01:43:19< fabi> Or better to say MoonScript which is easy to fell in love with.
20151204 01:47:27< fabi> vultraz: We are talking about savefiles, what exactly do you want to know?
20151204 01:51:04< shadowm> gfgtdf: By the way, if I understand this correctly, I can handle events entirely using Lua using wesnoth.game_events.on_event?
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20151204 01:52:52< shadowm> (Do you know much about this feature even? I guess I don't know that to begin with.)
20151204 02:06:01< shadowm> vultraz: How many people have given you feedback on the new Create Unit dialog thus far?
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20151204 02:07:22< shadowm> Ugh, peer is such a jerk, always resetting people's connections.
20151204 02:07:29< shadowm> 23:06:02 <shadowm> vultraz: How many people have given you feedback on the new Create Unit dialog thus far?
20151204 02:08:39< vultraz> shadowm: 0
20151204 02:09:03< shadowm> So this is why you were mad at me. :p
20151204 02:09:33< shadowm> You really should've got other people to help with the feedback thing first, because you know I'm not one to sugar-coat opinions.
20151204 02:09:34< vultraz> Yes
20151204 02:09:59< shadowm> So first and foremost, nicely done.
20151204 02:10:36< shadowm> Second: it segfaults when entering a filter that doesn't match anything, and the left panel tends to glitch out all of the time.
20151204 02:11:08< shadowm> That means that for many units I'm somewhat unsure what the intended display is.
20151204 02:11:33< vultraz> Oh, so THAT'S why it was crashing
20151204 02:11:39< vultraz> Invalid filter
20151204 02:11:49< vultraz> I observed it but could never reliably reproduce 
20151204 02:12:14< vultraz> The left panel not displaying info properly is a gui2 issue >_>
20151204 02:12:27< shadowm> The Ancient Lich (first selection in mainline Wesnoth) looks correct, but everyone else's info tends to disappear or gets shifted around in unexpected ways.
20151204 02:12:41< vultraz> Right
20151204 02:12:50< vultraz> that's because I don't have an invalidate_layout call
20151204 02:12:59< vultraz> However, that call would cause the dialog to dynamically reside
20151204 02:13:01< vultraz> resize*
20151204 02:13:04< vultraz> which we don't want
20151204 02:13:24< shadowm> About the icon display...
20151204 02:13:29< vultraz> If you're judging aesthetics, use the Ancient Lich 
20151204 02:13:58< shadowm> It's such a hard thing to judge because I'm like four different people for this effect.
20151204 02:14:52< pydsigner> gfgtdf: Could you maybe set up some autocorrect to change lof → lot?
20151204 02:15:17< shadowm> 1) UMC creator, primarily coder (let's pretend I'm not an artist for convenience's sake, I'll explain why later)  2) Mainline developer (I want to please the audience but don't have aesthetics in mind)  3) User (I focus on aesthetics before functionality to decide whether I want to buy your product)
20151204 02:15:34< shadowm> And since the idea is to deploy this model elsewhere, all three are relevant opinions.
20151204 02:16:09< shadowm> So, from an aesthetics point of view, it's pretty good, bar bugs.
20151204 02:17:14< shadowm> A problem is that the race and alignment icons are not necessarily instantly identifiable, but this might be the sum of two factors: 1) no tooltips; 2) lack of familiarity (if this stuff was everywhere I'd probably get used to it, assuming the icons are all visually unique).
20151204 02:17:54< vultraz> There are tooltips, they're just at the bottom of the screen
20151204 02:18:05< vultraz> I want to fix this by having location-based tooltips
20151204 02:18:31< shadowm> OTOH, I can already tell that the icon for liminal is rather...
20151204 02:18:52< shadowm> I mean no offense to the artist, but this at first glance looks like a snowflake.
20151204 02:19:14< shadowm> I'm not entirely sure what it's supposed to be. Stars? We have stars at night, you can barely see them during twilight.
20151204 02:19:36< vultraz> (artist is me) But yes, I kinda was going for stars. I'm not sure what would adequately represent twilight 
20151204 02:19:58< shadowm> I get that neutral is supposed to be lawful + chaotic, but doing this literally might not be the best idea.
20151204 02:20:10< shadowm> The icon is a shining moon.
20151204 02:20:19< shadowm> And chaotic is a non-shining moon.
20151204 02:20:39< shadowm> Just food for thought.
20151204 02:21:13< shadowm> Have you consulted more experience artists?
20151204 02:21:29< shadowm> d
20151204 02:21:57< vultraz> No
20151204 02:22:00< shadowm> In particular, people skilled in creating icons. It doesn't sound like much, but it does require a more specific skillset than general art.
20151204 02:22:13< vultraz> I could talk to LB
20151204 02:22:17< shadowm> General art is created to be appreciated for what it is.
20151204 02:22:24< vultraz> Really, I just made them so there'd be something to use
20151204 02:22:42< shadowm> Icons exist for a more practical purpose, and creating good icons requires an understanding of visual language (and psychology).
20151204 02:23:29< shadowm> So, okay, race icons, I know these are LordBob's and I'm not sure what I think about them individually.
20151204 02:23:41< shadowm> My concern is with the general idea, though.
20151204 02:24:16< shadowm> This is the part where that thing I vaguely alluded to above suddenly becomes incredibly relevant and important, in good storytelling tradition.
20151204 02:24:38< shadowm> I have multiple custom races. Do I need to give them all icons?
20151204 02:24:54< shadowm> What happens if I don't assign icons to them? What happens if I can't get anyone to make icons for them?
20151204 02:25:33< vultraz> Yes, they need icons
20151204 02:25:35< shadowm> Will it look worse in practice than sprites speaking in lieu of portraits, or will no-one really have a problem with this?
20151204 02:26:07< shadowm> I'm a poor person and can barely afford an Internet connection, so I can't pay anyone to make those icons.
20151204 02:26:35< fabi> vultraz: Are there screenshots?
20151204 02:26:40< shadowm> I don't have icon design skills, and people don't seem interested in helping me (and most people don't have icon design skills either!). What should I do?
20151204 02:27:09< vultraz> You, personally, can ask LB
20151204 02:27:14< vultraz> He made icons for me
20151204 02:27:19< vultraz> In face, I still have the faerie icon
20151204 02:27:23< vultraz> fact*
20151204 02:27:26< shadowm> vultraz, I'm speaking in hypotheticals here. :p
20151204 02:27:36< shadowm> I'm not a poor person and I can pay people to make icons.
20151204 02:27:39< vultraz> In a general case, they can use a general icon 
20151204 02:27:57< shadowm> The fictitious person I was roleplaying as can't, though.
20151204 02:27:58< vultraz> Though
20151204 02:27:59< vultraz> Hm
20151204 02:28:25< vultraz> Yeah, they'll just have to copy one of the generic race icons into a specific folder path
20151204 02:28:31< vultraz> and name it after the race
20151204 02:28:48< shadowm> Eh? I assumed the icon path would be specified in WML.
20151204 02:29:43< shadowm> Okay, I see there are some generic icons.
20151204 02:30:05< shadowm> Not sure which one I'd assign the Shaxthals or Demons, though.
20151204 02:32:13< shadowm> Okay, so I guess that's a solution.
20151204 02:32:48< shadowm> I'll leave it to other less privileged UMC makers to decide how they feel about it when the time comes.
20151204 02:32:57< gfgtdf> shadowm: yes you cna handle events entirely with wesnoth.game_events.on_event
20151204 02:33:21< shadowm> vultraz: Now the level icon. The 'L' is redundant.
20151204 02:33:26< gfgtdf> shadowm: iirc i actually do that in scenario with robots although the code might already be a bit rusty any i might code it differently now
20151204 02:33:48< gfgtdf> shadowm: but know that a on_event handler wont prevent undoing so you need to manually prevent undoing
20151204 02:33:59< gfgtdf> shadowm: iirc there isa  note inthe wiki about this
20151204 02:34:07< shadowm> vultraz: I feel that if you keep the L then there's pretty much no reason for it to be presented in the icon form rather than as a regular text level, from an aesthetic viewpoint.
20151204 02:34:14< shadowm> Level? I mean label.
20151204 02:34:38< gfgtdf> shadowm: also i dont know how on_events handles whitespaces/underscores
20151204 02:34:57< shadowm> gfgtdf: Yeah, I saw the note. Am I supposed to keep the old value of wesnoth.game_events.on_event around like with the other game_events items?
20151204 02:35:26< gfgtdf> shadowm: yes
20151204 02:35:36< vultraz> shadowm: the icons go by a hardcoded path and race id, not by wml-specified path
20151204 02:35:47< gfgtdf> shadowm: you can eigher call then before or after your code (dependent on whether you want your code to be executed first)
20151204 02:35:47< shadowm> gfgtdf: Huh. Does it do anything by default, or is this just for compatibility with other UMC?
20151204 02:36:04< gfgtdf> shadowm: its for compability
20151204 02:36:08< gfgtdf> shadowm: afaik
20151204 02:36:15< gfgtdf> shadowm: i'm not sure
20151204 02:36:19< vultraz> shadowm: the L is there to make it obvious it's level
20151204 02:36:35< vultraz> shadowm: also, it's in the icon section since it's important info. where else could it go?
20151204 02:36:52< shadowm> gfgtdf: Hm, okay, thanks for the info.
20151204 02:37:26< gfgtdf> shadowm: also note that on_event doesnt really support filter for events.
20151204 02:37:49< shadowm> I assume I just need to do wesnoth.match_unit and stuff on the current event context by hand then.
20151204 02:37:59< gfgtdf> yes
20151204 02:39:54< shadowm> vultraz's Create Unit dialog for reference: http://i.imgur.com/t0hE5oa.png
20151204 02:40:41< gfgtdf> shadowm: i know about the dialog
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20151204 02:41:12< gfgtdf> shadowm: when i tested it it ued to show a lot of image not found symbold in teh lieft side panel
20151204 02:41:17< gfgtdf> used*
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20151204 02:41:45< gfgtdf> shadowm: i think it shoudl rather not show symbols than teh symbol not found image
20151204 02:41:53< shadowm> gfgtdf: Did you test it against add-on units maybe?
20151204 02:42:04< gfgtdf> shadowm: no i didnt
20151204 02:42:21< shadowm> The image not found icon isn't defined by the dialog, it's the image cache/loading mechanism's fallback when it can't find an image and you have debug mode enabled. Non-debug mode users will not see it.
20151204 02:42:23< gfgtdf> shadowm: it was teh lawful/chaotic images that were missing
20151204 02:42:40< gfgtdf> shadowm: well that dialog only show up in debug mode
20151204 02:42:52< shadowm> Eh, true. :p
20151204 02:43:16< shadowm> But it's relevant if this gets used in other dialogs and the sidebar later.
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20151204 02:44:10< gfgtdf> shadowm: i actually think the main window cenarrn is that hardest/last past we shoudl try to convert to gui2
20151204 02:44:46< shadowm> Well, this design doesn't necessarily have to be implemented in GUI2.
20151204 02:44:52< gfgtdf> i forgot what 'cenarrn' meant
20151204 02:45:08< shadowm> Sidebar?
20151204 02:45:25< gfgtdf> hmm maybe
20151204 02:45:56< gfgtdf> but i think i want talking about that main game window as a whole
20151204 02:46:24< shadowm> GUI2 obviously makes changes like this easy (when it's not bugged), but if we really want the same aesthetic everywhere then there's no reason to not do it with GUI1 or the main UI "framework".
20151204 02:46:46< shadowm> vultraz: Check the logs.
20151204 02:47:23< shadowm> Another concern I have is that placing all numbers on the same line will inevitably break with larger numbers, and you know UMC people are obsessed with numbers.
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20151204 02:47:57< gfgtdf_> hmm got dc
20151204 02:48:00< gfgtdf_> shadowm: hmm the race icions migth have teh advantage that they always have teh same side and don't need to be translated
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20151204 02:48:10< vultraz> gfgtdf_: I dunno why the alignment icons would show up for you
20151204 02:48:19< shadowm> gfgtdf_: Maybe check you know who's add-on's thread for some screenshots to get an idea of exactly how large we'll have to support.
20151204 02:48:30< shadowm> Er, that was for vultraz, not you.
20151204 02:48:58< gfgtdf_> shadowm: also note that the ingame units need to how more info than unit types (status problems, side...)
20151204 02:49:04< gfgtdf_> show*
20151204 02:49:22< shadowm> Yes.
20151204 02:49:33< gfgtdf_> shadowm: why exactly is large?
20151204 02:49:51< shadowm> HP > 100 for example.
20151204 02:50:08< shadowm> I'd not be surprised if XP > 1000 was a common thing too.
20151204 02:50:18< gfgtdf_> shadowm: i've seen hp > 1000 in  multiple scenario in mp and sp
20151204 02:50:42< vultraz> shadowm: honestly, it shouldn't be a problem
20151204 02:50:49< gfgtdf_> shadowm: also i've seen (max)xp > 1000 whcih the current gui doesnt really support
20151204 02:50:52< vultraz> 4 digits instead of 2
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20151204 02:51:37< gfgtdf> i have also sees units in mp and in p with a ridiciously amount of attacks, i already thought of whether it makes sense to add a scrollbar to teh rigth sid epanel
20151204 02:52:18< shadowm> vultraz: Well, not with this dialog, because GUI2 knows how to rearrange the layout to fit more stuff. We don't have the same convenience in the main themeable UI. And even if we did, we don't want the sidebar changing size only because someone suddenly decided to drop a 2^16 HP unit in front of the player.
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20151204 02:57:07< shadowm> So, what I'm saying is, in the main sidebar you'll need to make 6 possibly large numbers together on the same line.
20151204 02:57:36< shadowm> And in the rarely-mentioned Unit List dialog as well (it exists).
20151204 02:57:51< shadowm> *fit together              ugh what's with me and words tonight
20151204 02:58:42< gfgtdf> shadowm: which dialog you mean ?
20151204 02:59:15< shadowm> I'm also unsure (and this is a more abstract issue) whether people handle a row of numbers better than a column.
20151204 02:59:31< shadowm> gfgtdf: Menu → Unit List
20151204 03:03:48< vultraz> shadowm: I think the sidebar could have them on top of each other as now
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20151204 03:30:57< shadowm> vultraz: But yeah, maybe encourage people to test this when 1.13.2 comes out.
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20151204 03:31:07< shadowm> Er, not test, just to look at it.
20151204 03:31:18< shadowm> Or you can keep having router problems, that's fine too.
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20151204 03:56:07< celticminstrel> Is it my imagination, or does the unit description take up quite a bit more vertical space?
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20151204 03:56:19< celticminstrel> Compared to the old dialog.
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20151204 04:30:58< Aginor> neverEnough: the ttypes is a a part of the delphi coding style being brought across by the developer who wrote it and came from a delphi background :)
20151204 04:32:16< Aginor> shadowm: can I change my mind and request a wesnoth cloak? :)
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20151204 04:38:45< fabi> so are there screenshots somewhere?
20151204 04:47:30< Aginor> fabi: is that directed to me?
20151204 04:47:46< fabi> vultraz: ^
20151204 04:47:50< fabi> sorry
20151204 04:49:19< Aginor> no worries :)
20151204 04:50:00< fabi> I am curious about some the unit dialog.
20151204 04:54:13< Aginor> shadowm: are you stocked up on coffee mugs? http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.336165331
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20151204 05:05:55< vultraz> [13:39:52]	shadowm	vultraz's Create Unit dialog for reference: http://i.imgur.com/t0hE5oa.png
20151204 05:05:58< vultraz> fabi: ^
20151204 05:06:24< fabi> thank you
20151204 05:07:35< fabi> yeah
20151204 05:07:36< vultraz> fabi: do you have feedback?
20151204 05:07:44< fabi> it is nice
20151204 05:08:12< shadowm> Aginor: Sure, I've prodded our person responsible for cloaks.
20151204 05:08:41< fabi> Well, I have always been a little distracted by the "Profile" button.
20151204 05:09:07< fabi> Maybe the unit images itself can be the button?
20151204 05:09:14< vultraz> Sadly, no
20151204 05:09:18< vultraz> GUI2 sucks that way
20151204 05:09:19< fabi> Being highlighted by mouse hovering to indicate it.
20151204 05:09:32< fabi> why should it?
20151204 05:09:52< vultraz> You'd need a custom 72x72 button image and definition 
20151204 05:10:34< fabi> I am not so sure.
20151204 05:10:50< shadowm> Eh, no not really. It should be possible to make the button's label serve as one/the image layer in its canvas.
20151204 05:11:34< shadowm> Widget definitions use formulas for a reason, after all.
20151204 05:11:57< fabi> On a side note: Clicking on the sidebar's unit box also brings up the unit's unit_type's help browser page.
20151204 05:12:26< fabi> So that would also be some kind of unifying the way the gui works.
20151204 05:13:54< fabi> L4 / Undead / Chaotic ?
20151204 05:14:13< vultraz> Yes
20151204 05:14:32< fabi> The huge L4 is not exactly my taste.
20151204 05:14:54< fabi> I would prefer to have a third icon there. And the "L4" somewhere else but smaller.
20151204 05:15:11< vultraz> A third icon for what?
20151204 05:16:22< fabi> good question
20151204 05:17:03< celticminstrel> I think you should have a third option for gender.
20151204 05:17:25< vultraz> A third option?
20151204 05:17:28< vultraz> There is no third option
20151204 05:17:32< celticminstrel> "Random"
20151204 05:17:41< vultraz> Oh
20151204 05:17:43< vultraz> Hm
20151204 05:17:44< fabi> yes
20151204 05:17:50< fabi> and it should be the default
20151204 05:17:51< celticminstrel> Also, as long as we're allowing gender selection, what about variation selection...
20151204 05:17:56< vultraz> D:
20151204 05:18:19< celticminstrel> Though I guess variation selection is a big thing that should be done separately once the dialog is otherwise finished.
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20151204 05:55:05< Aginor> shadowm: thanks
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20151204 06:52:10< zookeeper> vultraz, i did give you feedback on it! i complained about the filter textbox not receiving focus by default like the old one did
20151204 06:56:28< zookeeper> and i don't think it needs to be repeatedly pointed out how weird it is to have any unique iconology for a debug dialog when there's all the space in the world for text as usual.
20151204 06:59:09< zookeeper> and if the right panel doesn't need labels like "traits" and "attacks", then they serve no purpose in the create unit dialog either
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20151204 07:05:10< shadowm> I think it was repeatedly pointed out that the dialog rewrite was a convenient excuse to try out the icon-based sidebar panel design.
20151204 07:05:42< shadowm> I.e. because it's much faster to prototype this stuff in GUI2.
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20151204 07:15:35< vultraz> What he said, yes
20151204 07:15:54< vultraz> I was experimenting with use of fewer text labels 
20151204 07:16:01< vultraz> And going for more of a visual scheme 
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20151204 07:29:59< zookeeper> i know
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20151204 07:45:18< irker726> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 692ba74df965 / src/gui/ (22 files in 2 dirs): Fixed spelling of 'focused' http://git.io/vRCiJ
20151204 07:46:21 * shadowm hits vultraz with the squeaky mallet.
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20151204 07:50:56< shadowm> I may as well repeat myself here:
20151204 07:52:06< shadowm> 1) It's not a 'fix', you just decided to re-spell it your way.  2) The author was quite attached to British spellings, at least for the WIP version of the GUI2 API.  3) I know I wouldn't want to try resolving conflicts if I had _that_ thrown at me without prior warning.
20151204 07:53:28< vultraz> AGH. I broke something.
20151204 07:53:56< vultraz> Downside of this new log system, using wconsole prevents any logs from being saved
20151204 07:54:07< vultraz> And a crash just closes the console window
20151204 07:54:10< vultraz> So you see nothing
20151204 07:54:29< shadowm> Start it from a command line prompt.
20151204 07:54:45< shadowm> Also, yes, you obviously broke everything because you didn't update data/gui/.
20151204 07:55:27< vultraz> There we go
20151204 07:55:32< shadowm> And using --wconsole did prevent logs from being written before too (1.13.1), for obvious reasons.
20151204 07:56:42< shadowm> A single file descriptor can only be attached to one file, unless you use pipes.
20151204 07:57:06< irker726> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 523d14d261ae / data/gui/ (19 files in 3 dirs): Fixed spelling of 'focused' in data http://git.io/vRCXy
20151204 07:57:51< shadowm> Okay let it go on record that I did not request or approve these commits.
20151204 07:58:27< irker726> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e1a570021322 / src/gui/dialogs/unit_create.cpp: tunit_create: focus filter box instead of unit list by default http://git.io/vRC1v
20151204 07:59:05< vultraz> zookeeper: ^
20151204 07:59:14< zookeeper> yay
20151204 08:00:03< irker726> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e77c68b03126 / src/gui/dialogs/game_load.cpp: tgame_load: focus filter box instead of savegame list by default http://git.io/vRC1Y
20151204 08:00:12< vultraz> And now I'm out
20151204 08:00:40< fabi> vultraz: bye
20151204 08:00:52< shadowm> I have no idea how I'm going to note on the wiki that the spelling is different since 1.13.2.
20151204 08:02:09< shadowm> I guess I'll just wait to see if you change your mind within the next 48 hours, and regenerate and reupload the documentation as-is otherwise.
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20151204 08:08:05< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#7865 (master - 692ba74 : Charles Dang): The build was broken.
20151204 08:08:05< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/94817379
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20151204 09:46:13< loonycyborg> shadowm: I have no plans that would conflict with it
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20151204 10:08:44< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#7868 (master - e77c68b : Charles Dang): The build has errored.
20151204 10:08:44< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/94818818
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20151204 10:15:52< Aginor> vultraz: :(
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20151204 16:01:10< Ivanovic> Aginor: tinyhippo will contact you about the cloak
20151204 16:01:23< Ivanovic> basically asking if you want the offered cloak and then setting it
20151204 16:02:59< Ivanovic> [17:02:49] <tinyhippo> ivanovic: if he gets back to me whenever, I'll apply the cloak
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20151204 18:37:39< Aginor> 'lo
20151204 18:38:17< Aginor> is anyone around who's done a build in Visual Studio?
20151204 18:38:42< gfgtdf> y
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20151204 18:41:44< Aginor> I'm trying to do a build of master using aquelia's libraries
20151204 18:42:01< Aginor> And I'm hitting the following error:
20151204 18:42:02< Aginor> 1>about.obj : warning LNK4075: ignoring '/EDITANDCONTINUE' due to '/SAFESEH' specification
20151204 18:42:05< Aginor> 1>SDLmain.lib(SDL_win32_main.obj) : warning LNK4217: locally defined symbol _fprintf imported in function _ShowError
20151204 18:42:08< Aginor> 1>SDLmain.lib(SDL_win32_main.obj) : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol __imp____iob_func referenced in function _ShowError
20151204 18:42:11< Aginor> 1>C:\Users\test\Documents\wesnoth\projectfiles\VC9\Debug\wesnoth.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 1 unresolved externals
20151204 18:42:25< Aginor> do you know what might be missing?
20151204 18:44:14< gfgtdf> Aginor: first meanst that you passed flag (EDITANDCONTINUE which is for debugging) to the linker which was ignored becasue it is incompatible to SAFESEH flag.
20151204 18:44:25< gfgtdf> Aginor: did you try to build sdl yourself ?
20151204 18:44:53< gfgtdf> Aginor: becasue those errors come from sdllib is seems
20151204 18:45:41< Aginor> no, those libraries comes from https://github.com/aquileia/external/archive/VC14.zip
20151204 18:45:58< celticminstrel> __imp____iob_func and _ShowError both sound like internal implementation details.
20151204 18:46:08< gfgtdf> Aginor: hmm well seems like you are not teh onyl wone with that problem: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/30412951/unresolved-external-symbol-imp-fprintf-and-imp-iob-func-sdl2
20151204 18:46:23< Aginor> project settings are the default ones for our project
20151204 18:46:27< celticminstrel> Well, the second could be WinAPI, I suppose.
20151204 18:46:30< Aginor> gfgtdf: but I'm building SDL1
20151204 18:46:47< celticminstrel> Oh, wait.
20151204 18:47:09< celticminstrel> ShowError is defined in SDLmain then?
20151204 18:47:25< Aginor> using VS2015 as aquileia told me to do
20151204 18:48:30< gfgtdf> Aginor: you coudl still try the fixed that are suggested in that  page.
20151204 18:48:30< Aginor> I guess I could try recompiling SDL
20151204 18:48:37< gfgtdf> Aginor: or that
20151204 18:48:58< gfgtdf> Aginor: i wonder why you build with sdl1 ?
20151204 18:50:33< Aginor> gfgtdf: to pipeclean the build process
20151204 18:50:59< Aginor> have it working in the same manner as anyone else, then make changes
20151204 18:51:33< Aginor> gfgtdf: are there any properties that fix requires me to change or is it just in code?
20151204 18:52:09< Aginor> I am not comfortable with trying to find things in MSVC's project properties, it takes me a lot of time :D
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20151204 18:52:53< gfgtdf> Aginor: the first wanring is in project properties.
20151204 18:53:15< Aginor> yes, I gathered as much from your explanation
20151204 18:53:21< Aginor> I do want a debug build though
20151204 18:53:52< gfgtdf> Aginor: accoring to that page the error can maybe be fixed by just addin 'extern "C" { FILE __iob_func[3] = { *stdin,*stdout,*stderr }; }' spmewhere in the cpp files
20151204 18:54:13< gfgtdf> Aginor: by debug build you mean beeing able to chnage teh code while it runs ?
20151204 18:54:54< Aginor> gfgtdf: no, I want to be able to inspect symbols in the debugger without having them optimised away, get full stack traces and be able to step through code
20151204 18:56:06< gfgtdf> Aginor: yes the /EDITANDCONTINUE flasg tries to enable beeign able to changew teh code during debugin (at least in vs2010 this doent really work for c++ code so i never used it related in wesnoth)
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20151204 18:56:53< gfgtdf> Aginor: but also normal debugexecutable is very slow, i usually never zuse it as long as i see another option to fix it
20151204 18:58:44< Aginor> aquileia had gotten some success with a not-to-slow debug build so I was hoping he could tell me which settings to use when/if he shows up
20151204 18:59:09< Aginor> although I guess with it being Friday night in Europe he might have better things to do :)
20151204 19:01:40< Aginor> mind you, I should probably go outside and do my gardening before the sun gets too vicious
20151204 19:02:00< Aginor> gfgtdf: doing those changes does not fix the errors
20151204 19:02:17< gfgtdf> Aginor: still exactly teh same errros ?
20151204 19:08:54< Aginor> gfgtdf: yes
20151204 19:09:03< Aginor> I've given up on that now and copied in SDL2
20151204 19:09:39< Aginor> now I'll probably spend the next 15 minutes compiling
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20151204 19:22:41< zookeeper> i build in VS but i'm not much help since i have little idea what i'm doing.
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20151204 19:24:28< Aginor> zookeeper: that makes two of us
20151204 19:25:05< Aginor> I wonder why it's so incredibly slow to compile in the VM, I've fed it plenty of memory and CPU cores
20151204 19:28:15< zookeeper> i don't know. i can only guess that it's things like heavy use of templates and everything being included everywhere and that kind of thing which i think someone on the internet once said makes compilation slower :p
20151204 19:28:20< Ivanovic> Aginor: regarding your cloak, you should have received a message from tinyhippo
20151204 19:28:37< Aginor> Ivanovic: I did, I was asleep at the time but I have responded
20151204 19:28:47< Aginor> but I think tinyhippo is away at the moment
20151204 19:28:51< Aginor> Ivanovic: thank you
20151204 19:28:52< Ivanovic> okay, then you should "soon" receive the cloak
20151204 19:29:24< Aginor> excellent
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20151204 19:32:04< Aginor> zookeeper: yes, templates play a big part of that. I was more commenting on the perceived slowness of the VM over my bare metal linux host
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20151204 19:32:20< zookeeper> right
20151204 19:32:36< Aginor> I should have enabled the right settings to have it run pretty fast :D
20151204 19:34:03< Aginor> cpu utilization never tops 30% either with makes me think the build isn't very parallell
20151204 19:34:41< fabi> Aginor: -j 4 
20151204 19:35:43< Aginor> fabi: in visual studio?
20151204 19:36:00< fabi> doesn't it build using scons?
20151204 19:36:06< Aginor> no
20151204 19:36:13< fabi> hmmm year
20151204 19:36:26< fabi> last time I worked on Windows. ~1998
20151204 19:36:41< Aginor> it uses some xml based project format and msbuild
20151204 19:36:59< Aginor> which seems to be ant mixed up with make
20151204 19:37:31< fabi> isn't using cygwin or mingw less painfull on windows?
20151204 19:38:35< Aginor> fabi: but that's not where people have reported crashes
20151204 19:39:46< fabi> I see.
20151204 19:48:55< Aginor> and the stupid thing is still compiling
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20151204 19:55:26< Aginor> bah
20151204 19:55:29< Aginor> same stupid error
20151204 19:55:48< Aginor> 1>SDL2main.lib(SDL_windows_main.obj) : warning LNK4217: locally defined symbol ___iob_func imported in function _ShowError
20151204 19:56:03< Aginor> I shall give up on this for now and go and slay my garden
20151204 19:56:28< Aginor> those weeds will never know what put them in the compost
20151204 19:56:47< fabi> rofl
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20151204 20:10:55< zookeeper> celticminstrel, shadowm, so if some/lots of unit data was no longer being stored in variables/savefiles and direct modification of them removed, would they still be readable ($unit.level and so on) and/or accessible via [filter_wml]?
20151204 20:12:16< zookeeper> s/accessible/filterable
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20151204 20:15:12< gfgtdf> shadowm: any prorgess on https://gna.org/bugs/?23632? do you plan to backport https://gna.org/bugs/?23632 to 1.12 ?
20151204 20:15:28< zookeeper> celticminstrel, shadowm, what i've always hoped for is for everything to be accessible and modifiable through variables, but that savefiles would only store the things which differ from the unit type, and i can't really see decreasing the accessibility of single unit data that we have now as a workable long-term plan.
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20151204 20:18:40< PauloPuglia> hi!hola!
20151204 20:18:45< gfgtdf> PauloPuglia: hi
20151204 20:20:09< PauloPuglia> im a fan lol
20151204 20:20:44< fabi> :-)
20151204 20:21:50< PauloPuglia> i just read that have problems :(
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20151204 20:54:46< shadowm> gfgtdf: Not yet, doubt it'll take me long when I get to it, but it's not too likely I'll backport the changes to 1.12.
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20151204 21:36:35< celticminstrel> zookeeper: What I'm doing will only affect savefiles, so nothing changes with [store_unit] and [filter_wml] and such... except maybe that changes made within [abilities] and [specials] are ignored by [unstore_unit].
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20151204 21:44:01< shadowm> gfgtdf: Surely we don't really need the debug command warnings in SP...
20151204 21:46:38< zookeeper> celticminstrel, we have that somewhat-frowned-upon FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT macro in core which directly modifies specials... :p
20151204 21:47:10< shadowm> Oh, my favorite macro.
20151204 21:47:11< celticminstrel> It can probably be rewritten to use [object] though?
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20151204 21:47:40< shadowm> vultraz: http://i.imgur.com/QVO0siY.png
20151204 21:48:00< zookeeper> celticminstrel, maybe
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20151204 21:51:01< celticminstrel> Since it only adds and removes specials.
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20151204 21:55:03< gfgtdf> i really hate the FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT  macro....
20151204 21:55:20< shadowm> The code or the effects? :p
20151204 21:55:53< gfgtdf> it happened multiple times to me that i had to restert a scenario becasue my strategy didnt work because i finly noticed it was impossible to hit that unit.
20151204 21:56:16< gfgtdf> een worse if i have an ai ally who fights against an enemy unit which cannot be hit becasue offorce chance to hit
20151204 21:56:24< gfgtdf> even*
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20151204 21:57:30< gfgtdf> i really think that if scenario designes don't want us to kill a certain unit they shoudl make it visible instead of requirung the user to look at the wml code why the stategy failed.
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20151204 21:59:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: do you know what currently happens currently when [attacks] is omitted?
20151204 22:00:03< zookeeper> gfgtdf, sure, it was intended as a fallback only, but arguably on easier difficulties it's realistically possible to get burned by it
20151204 22:01:07< zookeeper> there's no way to absolutely guarantee for example that a player can't luck their way through all the enemies and kill the story-critical enemy leader
20151204 22:02:20< gfgtdf> zookeeper: well the point is that FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT does this invisibly to the user
20151204 22:02:25< zookeeper> whenever it's used to make an enemy unkillable, that's basically a problem with the scenario; they should all gracefully handle the unlikely event that the player succeeds in that
20151204 22:02:48< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: What?
20151204 22:03:04< gfgtdf> zookeeper: hmm this didnt happen on mainline or TO ME SO ITS MAYBE THE THE WML ATHOURS FAULT
20151204 22:03:14< gfgtdf> zookeeper: SRY FOR CAPSW WAS ACCIDENTLY
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20151204 22:03:24< gfgtdf> zookeeper: shit again..
20151204 22:03:30< zookeeper> :P
20151204 22:04:23< zookeeper> personally i find that use of the macro pretty useless in retrospect, even if i did add it to a couple of places.
20151204 22:04:32< zookeeper> the important use is to guarantee that the player will hit something
20151204 22:04:53< zookeeper> like, the rats at the beginning of DiD's second-to-last scenario, or the dark adept in EI's third scenario
20151204 22:05:07< zookeeper> in those cases you're completely at the mercy of luck and if you happen to miss, you lose
20151204 22:06:00< gfgtdf> zookeeper: well it is possible that your whole plan for a scenario relies on getting a leader or something assasinated. You feel betrayed if you notice afterwards that there is a FORCE_CHAHCE_TOHIT involved.
20151204 22:06:03< celticminstrel> I do agree it's bad form to use FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT to make an enemy impossible to hit.
20151204 22:06:13< zookeeper> but, with that macro you can guarantee that the player will get those first few lucky hits in, which they'll have to attempt anyway so it's not really even abusable
20151204 22:06:34< zookeeper> gfgtdf, well in that case you've already completely ignored the objectives
20151204 22:06:44< celticminstrel> I think I've only used it to increase the chance of hitting an enemy.
20151204 22:06:54< gfgtdf> zookeeper: but teh main reason why i hate is is becasue i one played a scenario where the enemy leader equipped with FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT did more or less alone kill the whoe army of my allied si side.
20151204 22:06:57< zookeeper> i'm not saying it's a good thing to happen, but you have to purposefully attempt something the scenario implicitly tells you not to
20151204 22:07:00< celticminstrel> Maybe to decrease the chance of an enemy hitting your own units.
20151204 22:07:08< zookeeper> gfgtdf, what scenario is that?
20151204 22:07:18< gfgtdf> zookeeper: dont rmember, some addon
20151204 22:07:18< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: What was that about omitting [attacks]?
20151204 22:07:39< zookeeper> oh, add-on. well that's their problem then :P
20151204 22:08:31< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: do you know how the [unit]s are currently generated from wml?
20151204 22:09:49< celticminstrel> I'm not sure what you're asking here...
20151204 22:10:09< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: what i mean is specially that just removing the [attacks]s from a unit in case its the same as in the unittype cfg work becasue it will be resetted to the [unit_type]+ [effect]s applied.
20151204 22:11:08< celticminstrel> Consider the ActionWML [unit]. You don't include attacks there, after all.
20151204 22:11:33< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well you can include teh attacks
20151204 22:12:12< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: and it wont get the [attack]s from the unit_tyoe if it has [effect]s that change them.
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20151204 22:20:56< celticminstrel> In that last case, I think it's better to say that it does get the attacks from the unit_type, and then the [effect]s change them.
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20151204 23:18:44< aquileia> Aginor: Still around?
20151204 23:19:38< aquileia> I could push the debug performance fix to master or sdl2 if you want
20151204 23:20:37< aquileia> BTW, the project file in sdl2 requires SDL 2, so if you used that, it'd explain why you got unresolved externals
20151204 23:21:26< aquileia> As far as MSVC is concerned, master ony works with SDL 1.2 and sdl2 only works with SDL 2
20151204 23:22:24< aquileia> Of course, you can change the settings
20151204 23:24:18< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: if you can the normal [unid] code to behave that way you'll break multiple addons
20151204 23:25:07< gfgtdf> change*
20151204 23:36:59< aquileia> Aginor: According to the page gfgtdf linked, Visual Studio 2015 deprecated ___iob_func and moved it to legacy_stdio_definitions.lib - you'll have to either add that library to your linker's "Additional library dependencies" or compile SDL yourself
20151204 23:37:53< Aginor> aquileia: please do push that debug change
20151204 23:37:57< aquileia> wedge009: ^ concerning the VC14 branch of external
20151204 23:38:21< Aginor> I eventualy got it resolved by recompiling sdl2, adding the library never worked for me
20151204 23:40:59< aquileia> Aginor: git can't auto-merge the fix across master/sdl2 - I'd prefer to only push to sdl2 in order to prevent merge conflicts later on when your work is merged. Is that ok?
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20151204 23:44:32< irker399> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:sdl2 ed780b0058bd / projectfiles/VC9/ (6 files): vcproj: Disable stack validity check http://git.io/vRRTn
20151204 23:46:06< aquileia> Aginor: ^
20151204 23:46:40< aquileia> BTW, from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows : "Changes in the VC project files can be merged without needing to rebuild Wesnoth. Just delete any loose files in VCx (except wesnoth.ncb, wesnoth.suo, wesnoth.sdf) and replace them by the contents of VC9. "
20151204 23:47:41< aquileia> As long as you keep these three files and the Debug dir, you won't have to build again from scratch
20151204 23:48:27< gfgtdf> aquileia: did you test whether this does actualy improve the perfomance?
20151204 23:49:06< aquileia> It does for me. It's still slow, but you can work with it
--- Log closed Sat Dec 05 00:00:36 2015