--- Log opened Mon Dec 07 00:00:34 2015
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20151207 03:17:49< aidanhs> emscripten (asm.js) uses doubles for all floating point values so rounding may be different to archs where there are two different sizes (i.e. most). but I suspect the commit wasn't talking about emscripten :)
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20151207 04:55:43< Aginor> shadowm: yes
20151207 04:58:22< shadowm> Aginor: But you still don't have a project cloak.
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20151207 05:59:58< Aginor> shadowm: no, that's their slackness though
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20151207 10:56:05< Soliton> gfgtdf: what do you mean by when? at which commit? at what day it was noticed? at which point in a game it happened?
20151207 10:59:08< Soliton> neverEnough: yes, that code is to announce moderators that observe non-observable games.
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20151207 12:49:52< gfgtdf> Soliton: that commit messsage mentioned your name, so i thought you might knw womsething about that
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20151207 13:32:48< Soliton> right and indeed i do. that doesn't change the fact that i do not understand the question... which is why i asked for clarification.
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20151207 14:15:20< gfgtdf> Soliton: that commitmessage says that floats/doubles can behave differently on different machines but if i undertood the wikipedia page about IEEE 754 corrently this is exatly what cannot happen on mormal machines. So im asked on which machines exactly this can be reproduced (and whether we still support them).
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20151207 15:12:47< gfgtdf> zookeeper, celicministrel any opinion on https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/557 ?
20151207 15:13:14 * zookeeper blinks
20151207 15:13:26< zookeeper> what's the rationale?
20151207 15:14:46< zookeeper> to use the same logic for all three different scatterings (units, embellishments, items)?
20151207 15:19:55< gfgtdf> zookeeper: the main ratuonale is the such a tag is usefule for wml authors, i've seen multiple addons that place items and do it in a bad (slow) way.
20151207 15:20:54< gfgtdf> zookeeper: the use if it in these 3 minaline macros is just to prove its something you commonly want to do.
20151207 15:22:54< zookeeper> well, if it works then it's fine by me. although i think you need to still handle PADDING_RADIUS in SCATTER_UNITS it seems
20151207 15:24:42< zookeeper> plus it seems you indented with tabs
20151207 15:24:46< gfgtdf> zookeeper: right te tag already uspports it but it seems like i fogot to add radius={PADDING_RADIUS} in [random_placement] in SCATTER_UNITS
20151207 15:35:56< zookeeper> no objections from me, then
20151207 16:06:41< Soliton> gfgtdf: pretty sure i've been on x86 64bit at the time. not sure what rusty's arch was though. i'm fairly certain you can get different results from floating point calculations on the same platform with merely different compiler (options).
20151207 16:10:33< gfgtdf> Soliton: youd you name me such a compiler option?
20151207 16:11:53< Soliton> -ffast-math for gcc i'd guess.
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20151207 17:20:47< gfgtdf> Soliton: hmm in this case i think we should not support compiling with -ffast-math (or disable mp for -ffast-math builds)
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20151207 17:25:57< Soliton> gfgtdf: it was an example. i'm sure there are more and that different compilers with different calling conventions etc will not produce precisely "compatible" calculations to begin with.
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20151207 17:28:38< gfgtdf> Soliton: do you think its enogh to check std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559() to prevent such OOS ?
20151207 17:34:10< Soliton> gfgtdf: i think it's enough to avoid floating point calculations.
20151207 17:35:02< gfgtdf> Soliton: using no floating ppiont calulations is a guge limitation
20151207 17:35:22< gfgtdf> Soliton: wml can use floating point calculation
20151207 17:35:40< gfgtdf> Soliton: in lua 'double' is the only number type
20151207 17:36:19< gfgtdf> Soliton: so don't think that we can live without floating point calulcation.
20151207 17:42:41< Soliton> all that has unfortunately very little bearing on the existence of a simple check to prevent all potential OOS from floating point calculations.
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20151207 18:03:07< neverEnough> how to enable the "DBG_MP <<" messages ? is it an option at compile time?
20151207 18:05:58< Soliton> --log-debug=all
20151207 18:06:22< Soliton> all can be replaced by something more appropriate.
20151207 18:09:32< neverEnough> there is a list of appropriate params?
20151207 18:10:08< Soliton> --logdomains
20151207 18:10:18< neverEnough> thx
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20151207 19:38:57< gfgtdf> could it be that travis is horribly slow?
20151207 19:39:10< gfgtdf> im sure it wasnt that show some weeks ago
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20151207 19:39:15< gfgtdf> slow
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20151207 19:50:22< celticminstrel> It usually takes over half an hour for each build, I think.
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20151207 20:53:24< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master dc786dc181ce / data/ (core/macros/terrain-utils.cfg core/macros/utils.cfg lua/wml-tags.lua): add tag [random_placement] http://git.io/vRPHA
20151207 20:53:24< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 2a0c24e12f74 / data/campaigns/ (5 files in 5 dirs): use [random_placement] in some mainline scenarios. http://git.io/vRPHx
20151207 20:53:24< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 5db889eb1481 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: reset variable after [random_placement] http://git.io/vRPHp
20151207 20:53:25< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 856839e93f61 / data/ (8 files in 7 dirs): Merge pull request #557 from gfgtdf/lua_placement http://git.io/vRPHh
20151207 20:54:15< gfgtdf> celticminstrel	: yes but it seems to take forever even for teh buidl to begin
20151207 20:55:13< celticminstrel> Unfortunately, I couldn't think of a better name. I would've suggested one if I had any ideas.
20151207 20:55:27< celticminstrel> Have you documented it on the wiki yet?
20151207 20:56:24< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: you can here https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/builds see tavis builds whcih shoudl handle my pr and even teh buidl from 6 hur ago hasnt started yet
20151207 20:56:29< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: no not yet
20151207 20:57:55< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 3eadad182252 / changelog: Update changelog http://git.io/vRP73
20151207 20:58:52< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: did you aleady document [for(each)] ?
20151207 20:59:09< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20151207 20:59:15< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: ah right now i see it
20151207 20:59:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i searched it under internal actions wml
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20151207 21:11:05< gfgtdf> is 'very many' correct english ?
20151207 21:11:26< celticminstrel> Probably? I need more context to be sure.
20151207 21:11:59< celticminstrel> I think it's used more in negative constructs.
20151207 21:13:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i added the doumentation: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/InternalActionsWML#.5Brandom_placement.5D
20151207 21:14:43< gfgtdf> i think i shodul rename some of teh attributes
20151207 21:14:47< celticminstrel> Looks good, but should be 1.13.2 and later, not 1.13.0.
20151207 21:15:22< gfgtdf> i sugges to change 'radius' to 'distance' and maybe 'num_items' to num_locations. or just 'number'
20151207 21:15:38< gfgtdf> y right
20151207 21:16:13< celticminstrel> Ah, yeah, radius could be renamed.
20151207 21:17:15< celticminstrel> "distance" is a pretty vague name though.
20151207 21:18:46< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm you have a better name?
20151207 21:19:17< celticminstrel> Not sure... I thought of "proximity", but I'm not sure if that's quite right either...
20151207 21:21:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: 'spacing' coudl be an alterntive but im not suire this is better than distance
20151207 21:22:15< celticminstrel> I think pretty much anything is better than "distance".
20151207 21:22:37< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: you really seem to hate 'distance'
20151207 21:23:41< iceiceice> why not just 'minimum distance'
20151207 21:23:52< celticminstrel> min_distance would be okay, I guess.
20151207 21:25:27< gfgtdf> any opinion on whether/how to change num_items ?
20151207 21:25:49< celticminstrel> I think it's fine, but I'm also okay with num_locations.
20151207 21:26:05< celticminstrel> Or even number.
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20151207 21:26:21< celticminstrel> So I guess that's a longwinded "no". >_>
20151207 21:32:54< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 9d656ad75566 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: update [randon_placement] http://git.io/vRXvv
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20151207 21:38:26< zookeeper> gfgtdf, did you test all the scenarios you changed?
20151207 21:38:47< gfgtdf> zookeeper: no not all
20151207 21:39:04< zookeeper> oh and there's at least some tabs and weird indentation still, 07_Crossroads.cfg
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20151207 21:40:29< irker480> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master a9f141c58e21 / data/core/macros/utils.cfg: fixup SCATTER_UNITS http://git.io/vRXJd
20151207 21:50:00< zookeeper> gfgtdf, ah, i didn't realize something before: [filter] should really be [filter_location]
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20151207 22:13:17< gfgtdf> does anyone know how this location filter works: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg#L1902 ?
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20151207 22:14:08< gfgtdf> i'd say it eogher returns 0 or ~pi*8^2 locations dependenton whether teh locations on ghost_spawn[$random] macthes teh lcations, does it really wokr that way ?
20151207 22:16:11< vultraz> I think it's any locations adjacent to side 1 units within an 8 hex radius of x,y also matching those terrains 
20151207 22:17:42< gfgtdf> vultraz: hmm but this page: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardLocationFilter#Notes_about_Radius_Usage says radius shodul go into an [and] if it mens that i read corrently
20151207 22:18:07< vultraz> radius doesn't always have to go into [and]
20151207 22:19:10< vultraz> but zookeeper would know better
20151207 22:19:12< celticminstrel> You didn't read correctly, obviously.
20151207 22:19:20< celticminstrel> That link doesn't say anything of the sort.
20151207 22:19:30< gfgtdf> vultraz: y but i said 'if it means that'
20151207 22:19:43< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i also didnt say anythign about the sort
20151207 22:20:01< celticminstrel> Uh.
20151207 22:20:17< celticminstrel> I feel like you're taking an idiom literally here.
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20151207 22:21:34< gfgtdf> ?
20151207 22:22:36< celticminstrel> The link doesn't say that radius should go in an [and].
20151207 22:23:12< celticminstrel> It just explains how it works when in an [and] and when not in an [and].
20151207 22:24:47< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: so?
20151207 22:25:00< celticminstrel> ...never mind.
20151207 22:29:13< zookeeper> in that instance, radius gets applied last
20151207 22:29:17< zookeeper> so that's how it reads
20151207 22:29:47< zookeeper> that said, please don't push to UtBS unless you really need to
20151207 22:30:43< zookeeper> makes it more work for me to merge the desert elf stuff
20151207 22:32:10< zookeeper> i suppose i need to mess with it by hand a lot anyway, so i guess it's fine... as long as there's nothing complicated which touches on the things i've had to change
20151207 22:36:34< gfgtdf> zookeeper: and then the code reads as 'spawn n units in range 8 iff the randomly chosen location fulfills the condition' whish doesnt soudn liek in intended behviour to me
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20151207 22:41:05< zookeeper> gfgtdf, i don't know what the intended behavior is nor can i exactly formulate what the code does
20151207 22:41:20< zookeeper> i'd suggest don't worry about it
20151207 22:41:55< zookeeper> i might rewrite it myself anyway, since there's a lot of that kind of stuff in the campaign that i might touch as part of the new desert elves project
20151207 22:42:17< zookeeper> (especially in that scenario... everything works kinda awfully in it)
20151207 22:46:07< iceiceice> gfgtdf: learned of some strange problem today with C++11, clang  and <locale>
20151207 22:46:11< iceiceice> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34124994/is-this-simple-c-program-using-locale-correct
20151207 22:46:29< iceiceice> idk if it will affect wesnoth but i saw that we include <locale> in the gettext boost file
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20151207 22:57:03< gfgtdf> iceiceice: hmm that seems more related to latest gcc/clang version than to std::locale so i don't eally think i can halp with that.
20151207 22:57:45< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think std::locale is just one of the few parts of std that is not header-only. But this problems sounds liek it could happen on other places too
20151207 22:57:59< iceiceice> yeah i dont know how important it is
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20151207 22:58:18< iceiceice> i guess it means that if you use clang with gcc's libstdc++ then you can crash unless you include this define
20151207 22:58:29< iceiceice> but it might only affect like, linux poeple building with clang, and travis
20151207 22:58:37< iceiceice> i think apple actually uses libc++
20151207 22:58:55< iceiceice> so maybe it wont affect releases, idk
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20151207 23:06:25< gfgtdf> zookeeper: what is the desert elves project? I always thought its just new images for the destert elves.
20151207 23:07:21< zookeeper> gfgtdf, a redesign of their whole unit tree. which is actually pretty much done and needs playtesting and some iteration, except for the art.
20151207 23:07:49< zookeeper> it's in https://github.com/ln-zookeeper/wesnoth/tree/quenoth if you're interested
20151207 23:09:49< gfgtdf> zookeeper: ok i see
20151207 23:18:08< gfgtdf> zookeeper: i wonder whether it would be eafier to implement the formation ability with [chance_to_hit] apply_to=opponent on the own unit.
20151207 23:19:24< zookeeper> gfgtdf, wouldn't work if the enemy attacks you with ranged, since you have no weapon
20151207 23:20:10< gfgtdf> zookeeper: right.
20151207 23:20:13< zookeeper> it'd be the easier method for any unit which has both melee and ranged attacks, but since those units don't, the special has to be given to the enemies
20151207 23:24:16< gfgtdf> zookeeper: what do you think about randm [filter] in [random_placement] to [possible_locations] ?
20151207 23:24:38 * zookeeper does not compute
20151207 23:26:54< gfgtdf> zookeeper: randm mens rename
20151207 23:27:46< zookeeper> well... it's better than [filter] but worse than [filter_location]
20151207 23:31:42< vultraz> zookeeper: what do you think of team_name -> team and user_team_name -> team_display_name OR side_name
20151207 23:31:52< zookeeper> i much prefer to use well-established tag names like that. [filter] always means a SUF, [filter_location] always means a SLF. using other names means it's not as immediately obvious what the tag does, even if the name in isolation is perhaps more descriptive
20151207 23:32:52< zookeeper> vultraz, "team" sounds ok, but team_display_name and side_name are awkward
20151207 23:33:09< zookeeper> but you know what i really think :p
20151207 23:33:16< zookeeper> anyway, i was off to bed ->
20151207 23:34:38< gfgtdf> vultraz: any plan about what whether to remove the 'name' field in [side] or how to use it ?
20151207 23:34:53< vultraz> gfgtdf: name field in side?
20151207 23:35:05< vultraz> IIRC any name= in side is used for the leader
20151207 23:35:08< gfgtdf> vultraz: yes [side]name?
20151207 23:35:10< gfgtdf> =
20151207 23:35:27< gfgtdf> vultraz: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/team.cpp#L122
20151207 23:36:44< vultraz> gfgtdf: yeah, remove that
20151207 23:37:01< vultraz> name= keys in [side] just get used for the leader so that's useless
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20151207 23:38:38< vultraz> plus name= sounds like it should do the same as user_team_name (or side_name, if I rename it that)
20151207 23:39:11< gfgtdf> vultraz: user_team_name is teh name of the team
20151207 23:39:56< vultraz> gfgtdf: actually, no. it's just the name the side gets displayed as 
20151207 23:40:19< gfgtdf> vultraz: the mp select dialog also uses this string when offering to change teh teams
20151207 23:40:29< gfgtdf> mp connect dialog i mean
20151207 23:40:50< vultraz> gfgtdf: from which side does it get the value?
20151207 23:41:10< gfgtdf> vultraz: the first side it finds for each team_id
20151207 23:41:17< gfgtdf> vultraz: iirc
20151207 23:42:10< vultraz> ok so if I have side 1 and 2 on team foo and side 3 on team bar, and side 1 with a team name "bat" and side 2 "baz", if I change teams to team foo it will show as team "bat"?
20151207 23:42:27< gfgtdf> vultraz: thats what i thought
20151207 23:42:36< gfgtdf> vultraz: but you'll only be sure once you tested it
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 08 00:00:45 2015