--- Log opened Tue Dec 15 00:00:53 2015
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20151215 02:49:14< vultraz> " /// @todo fendrin: comment this monster"
20151215 02:49:34< fendrin> vultraz: ?
20151215 02:49:41< vultraz> i found this in the code
20151215 02:49:49< fendrin> hihi
20151215 02:50:26< vultraz> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/game_events/action_wml.cpp#L534
20151215 02:52:15< vultraz> wow there are a bunch of comments attributed to you
20151215 02:52:30< vultraz> mostly joystick stuff...
20151215 02:52:32< vultraz> huh
20151215 02:52:52< fendrin> well, before I was kicked, I basically was the project 
20151215 02:52:54< vultraz> fendrin: any idea what that specific one meant? comment it out? add explanatory comments?
20151215 02:52:59< fendrin> together with iceiceice
20151215 02:53:32< fendrin> just have a look what new features in 1.12 are my work
20151215 02:53:44< vultraz> indeed
20151215 02:53:49< vultraz> you did a lot
20151215 02:54:21< fendrin> And I am doing even more yet
20151215 02:54:29< fendrin> since I can work on Wesmere full time right now
20151215 02:54:42< vultraz> Wesmere is the... new website
20151215 02:54:48< fendrin> yeah
20151215 02:55:47< fendrin> regarding the comment
20151215 02:55:50< fendrin> idk
20151215 02:56:23< fendrin> an a second glance that code block isn't that scary
20151215 02:57:25< fendrin> do you think it needs commenting to be understandable?
20151215 02:58:30< vultraz> not really
20151215 02:58:51< vultraz> i think the tag could use some refactoring, tho
20151215 02:59:31< fendrin> it should go into lua space
20151215 02:59:50< fendrin> like every game mechanic should
20151215 03:00:04< fendrin> and not refactored 
20151215 03:00:25< fendrin> with the positive side effect that I could steal it for Wesmere 
20151215 03:00:39< vultraz> again, Wesmere is the new *website*
20151215 03:00:41< fendrin> the new website
20151215 03:00:44< vultraz> not wesnoth 2.0
20151215 03:00:46< fendrin> yeah
20151215 03:00:51< vultraz> I don't get what you're talking about
20151215 03:01:35< celticminstrel> You need a reason other than "everything should be Lua" to go and port it to Lua, though.
20151215 03:02:02< fendrin> I don't want to suggest that.
20151215 03:02:25< fendrin> Do what you want with the old codebase, not longer my thing
20151215 03:02:48< vultraz> we have yet to see a new codebase :P
20151215 03:02:48< fendrin> ride the dead horse some more :-)
20151215 03:02:56< celticminstrel> The Lua port of [message] was also done because of another consideration .
20151215 03:03:18< vultraz> if someone gives us a new codebase, great
20151215 03:03:26< fendrin> well
20151215 03:04:07< fendrin> codebase don't fall from heaven
20151215 03:04:17< celticminstrel> There's not much point building a "new codebase", either.
20151215 03:04:30< fendrin> why not?
20151215 03:04:34< celticminstrel> It would just create zillions of new bugs and lots of extra work.
20151215 03:04:53< fendrin> I see.
20151215 03:04:57< celticminstrel> If you can get there slowly through smaller refactoring jobs, then okay, sure.
20151215 03:05:29< fendrin> c++ isn't refactored into MoonScript that easily. I prefer a clean room re-implementation.
20151215 03:05:35< celticminstrel> It's just that, at a certain point, rewriting/refactoring brings at least as much trouble as it solves.
20151215 03:05:40< iceiceice> celtricminstrel: for normal code bases maybe
20151215 03:05:49< iceiceice> but wesnoth's code base is about 10 times larger than it should be i think
20151215 03:05:50< vultraz> personally I think we just need to start over for wesnoth 2
20151215 03:05:54< vultraz> it's large
20151215 03:06:02< vultraz> it's buggy already
20151215 03:06:10< vultraz> could be done a lot simpler
20151215 03:06:13< iceiceice> so i think the "small refactoring jobs" and "adding tests for everything to do those refactoring jobs" will probably be slower than starting over
20151215 03:06:14< celticminstrel> Starting over would probably kill the project.
20151215 03:06:21< vultraz> celticminstrel: possibly
20151215 03:06:24< iceiceice> its not clear what we have to lose though
20151215 03:06:28< vultraz> celticminstrel: but it's already dying :P
20151215 03:06:59< fendrin> I think it needs to die to make place for something new.
20151215 03:07:12< celticminstrel> Don't just kill it off on your own.
20151215 03:07:19< vultraz> fendrin: well i think most everyone agrees with that
20151215 03:07:20< iceiceice> celticminstrel: if people wanted it to last forever they would have made more unit tests
20151215 03:07:21< iceiceice> and like
20151215 03:07:28< iceiceice> tried to prevent people from breaking it
20151215 03:07:43< iceiceice> and documented all the obscure parts of it that make it work
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20151215 03:08:00< celticminstrel> Starting over would likely also end up producing a different game.
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20151215 03:08:08< vultraz> celticminstrel: indeed
20151215 03:08:19< vultraz> celticminstrel: in fact, that would be good
20151215 03:08:19< celticminstrel> But I like this game, so...
20151215 03:08:22< iceiceice> celticminstrel: if we start over and use a portable language,
20151215 03:08:28< iceiceice> like, if most of the core logic was written in lua,
20151215 03:08:35< iceiceice> basically every other new game engine that is announced
20151215 03:08:37< celticminstrel> It wouldn't be "bad" to produce a different game.
20151215 03:08:39< iceiceice> and most that are in the past 5 years,
20151215 03:08:43< iceiceice> use lua in some form
20151215 03:08:55< iceiceice> it would be basically implausible that the game could "die" for lack of a supported engine
20151215 03:08:56< vultraz> celticminstrel: i think wesnoth 2 should have improved mechanics as well
20151215 03:09:33< vultraz> iceiceice is right
20151215 03:11:00< fendrin> Well, I can't balance a new game alone.
20151215 03:11:19< fendrin> So Irdya will start as a Wesnoth clone. Just doing what Wesnoth does, only better.
20151215 03:11:32< celticminstrel> "better"
20151215 03:11:40< fendrin> much better
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20151215 06:01:17< Johnny_> I have a few ideas to make wesnoth not better is any one open to listen??
20151215 06:02:02 * Johnny_ slaps Gambit around a bit with a large fishbot
20151215 06:02:37< ancestral> “not better?”
20151215 06:02:49< ancestral> I can think of hundreds of ways to make Wesnoth not better
20151215 06:03:10< Johnny_> lol My bad typo, I mean better
20151215 06:03:18< ancestral> Ah, alright then
20151215 06:03:34< ancestral> Follow up question:
20151215 06:04:01< ancestral> What ideas do you have that have not been both frequently suggested and recently suggested?
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20151215 06:25:02< fendrin> hi Johnny_
20151215 06:25:08< fendrin> I like to hear your ideas
20151215 06:25:26< fendrin> especially if they have been frequently suggested
20151215 06:26:09< ancestral> Johnny_ was mentioning about how he would like to have larger, or configurable number of units for recall
20151215 06:26:10< fendrin> I once planed just to implement everything from the frequently proposed and rejected list.
20151215 06:26:35< ancestral> I explained some of the drawbacks, such as OOS in multiplayer
20151215 06:26:53< ancestral> If it were a player game preference
20151215 06:27:28< ancestral> If it were an app-wide change, it would affect gameplay across campaigns and may require re-balancing of maps
20151215 06:28:12< fendrin> So basically starting a campaign with some higher level recalls?
20151215 06:29:24< Johnny_> no Fendrin, 
20151215 06:30:25< Johnny_> Fendrin, like doing away with the cap and allowing people to choose how on their own.
20151215 06:31:21< Johnny_> Fendrin I also have the Idea of Combining Xp points between Units so it would upgrade them faster.
20151215 06:31:50< Johnny_> 0
20151215 06:32:11 * Johnny_ slaps fendrin around a bit with a large fishbot
20151215 06:32:25< fendrin> hihi
20151215 06:33:39< Johnny_> I am unsure if those ideas would fly, 
20151215 06:34:24< fendrin> it sounds like creating an era supporting them isn't tthat hard, have you ever tried?
20151215 06:34:27< Johnny_> Fendrin Under Pref in the game you allow people to choose what to do with auto saves, why not do the same with Recalled Units??
20151215 06:35:10< fendrin> I am not sure what you exactly propose regarding the recall list.
20151215 06:35:58< Johnny_> I just like to keep more units to recall, then the cap allowed.
20151215 06:36:33< fendrin> I never noticed that there is a limited recall list.
20151215 06:36:34< Johnny_> The issue about combining xp would also help people build up a stronger army.
20151215 06:37:18< Johnny_> yeah, they put one in, quite a while ago. many people don't really see it.
20151215 06:37:28< fendrin> ah
20151215 06:37:30< ancestral> In other words, it’s a work-around to avoid the risk of playing with a “glass cannon” unit
20151215 06:37:31< fendrin> a new feature
20151215 06:37:57< ancestral> A fragile unit that, if given enough XP, will level into something much more powerful
20151215 06:38:14< ancestral> If you surround it with grunts, there’s little risk
20151215 06:38:38< fendrin> What happens when the limit of the recall list is reached?
20151215 06:38:49< fendrin> units just die?
20151215 06:39:03< Johnny_> the unit just dies
20151215 06:39:22< fendrin> seriously?
20151215 06:39:25< ancestral> Anyway, transferring experience sort of defeats the purpose of experience in my mind.
20151215 06:39:31< Johnny_> their is a certain why they determine what to keep
20151215 06:39:55< Johnny_> true, abt the xp, in many cases.
20151215 06:40:15 * fendrin needs to read the changelogs
20151215 06:40:45< ancestral> With the recall list, at some point, if you run out of slots, you have to release someone
20151215 06:41:05< ancestral> I mean, you aren’t going to remember extra units outside the list
20151215 06:41:24< ancestral> Otherwise, what’s the point of a list if you can have limitless others outside the list?
20151215 06:42:17< Johnny_> bingo when you reach it they are gone forever
20151215 06:42:39< ancestral> So are you saying, if you had max units in recall
20151215 06:42:52< ancestral> Then the next scenario half of them died
20151215 06:43:12< ancestral> You’d like the chance to recall one of the units that you were forced to release last time to fill a vacant slot?
20151215 06:43:45< fendrin> And at what amount is the limit of the recall list?
20151215 06:43:52< Johnny_> In wesnoth with the cap they gone forever if you reach the cap, 
20151215 06:44:01< ancestral> Kind of like releasing a player from a sports team, then after a rash of injuries, hiring him back on to fill a roster spot
20151215 06:44:41< Ravana_> you can write modification that effectively extends possible recall list by switching some of those units into variables
20151215 06:45:07< Johnny_> lol its like that thought about football.
20151215 06:45:15< Ravana_> assuming single scenario doesn't give enough to reach the cap
20151215 06:45:17< ancestral> I don’t think the game actually has a limit…
20151215 06:45:25< ancestral> I think it’s the campaign or scenario
20151215 06:45:39< ancestral> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/BuildingScenariosBalancing#Player.27s_recall_list
20151215 06:45:41< Johnny_> the cap is around 30
20151215 06:46:00< ancestral> I guess I haven’t tried to get to 30 before…
20151215 06:46:27< fendrin> So in which campaigns/scenarios is the limit used?
20151215 06:47:11< Johnny_> Ravana I could that but I want it for all camps.
20151215 06:47:24< ancestral> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SingleUnitWML
20151215 06:47:30< ancestral> “recall: Place unit on recall list. Always successful.”
20151215 06:47:40< Johnny_> Fendrin it is in many of them. I know it is in the mainlines.
20151215 06:47:41< Ravana_> Johnny_: yes, thats what [modification] means
20151215 06:47:48< ancestral> Does that mean there is no (relatively speaking) technical limit
20151215 06:48:07< ancestral> (aside from overflows, memory issues, etc.)
20151215 06:48:23< fendrin> Johnny_: I have never seen that limit in mainline.
20151215 06:49:03< fendrin> "Some campaigns try to limit the player's recall list (such as Evacuation in EI)"
20151215 06:49:19< fendrin> Eastern Invasion has the limit.
20151215 06:49:35< Johnny_> Fendrin just count the Units on the next Scenarios and you win one with more than 30 units you will see it than.
20151215 06:50:32< ancestral> There was a bug apparently in 1.11.13 that might have affecetd the recall list between scenarios
20151215 06:50:56< fendrin> I rather would like to grep for the code in question than just playing random campaigns/scenarios in the hope of finding one that features the limitation.
20151215 06:50:58< Johnny_> no this is not a bug, 
20151215 06:51:46< Johnny_> they just did this with out people not knowing, too much.
20151215 06:52:49< ancestral> Johnny_: I’m not sure there is a limit. I feel like you happened upon a campaign that set an artificial limit
20151215 06:53:07< ancestral> But fendrin is right, it’s possible to go through the source code to find out
20151215 06:53:34< ancestral> It sounds like it either could be a bug, or an undocumented “feature”
20151215 06:53:59< fendrin>   {LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS 2 "Direwolf Rider" 3}
20151215 06:54:07< fendrin> That is in Evacuation
20151215 06:54:10< Johnny_> it is not documented, just some thing I have figured out. 
20151215 06:54:22< ancestral> That’s a macro, no?
20151215 06:54:29< ancestral> Of course most macros aren’t documented
20151215 06:54:37< fendrin> but that is only restricting the number of direwolf's to recruit
20151215 06:54:47< shadowm> Direwolves.
20151215 06:54:54< ancestral> Heh
20151215 06:55:08< shadowm> vultraz: Could you help me with the front page and intro blurbs for the 1.13.2 announcement?
20151215 06:55:16< Johnny_> Ancestral just try what I say above wining a one with more than 30 units, and then check the recall on the next sec.
20151215 06:55:25< vultraz> shadowm: sure, what do you need
20151215 06:55:30< shadowm> Otherwise I will just do an Ivanovic and copy-paste from a previous post.
20151215 06:55:40< shadowm> I need front page and intro blurbs for the 1.13.2 announcement.
20151215 06:55:47 * ancestral thinks it deserves to be two words, “Dire Wolf” — but then again, having never actually seen such a beast…
20151215 06:56:07< shadowm> Hi ancestral what's the situation with 1.13.2?
20151215 06:56:17< ancestral> shadowm: I have my package done, but I really really need to test it on a 10.10 machine
20151215 06:56:34< ancestral> I have a USB drive imaging 10.10, it’s a long story
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20151215 06:56:49< shadowm> Imaging?
20151215 06:56:52< ancestral> It runs on 10.11 but looks like crap (known issue)
20151215 06:57:24< ancestral> The how is unimportant
20151215 06:57:38< ancestral> I just need a 10.10 machine to test with
20151215 06:57:45< ancestral> Or any brave souls here with a 10.10 machine
20151215 06:57:50< Johnny_> ancestral their could be many of them with caps, but I am just pointing out the main ones.
20151215 06:58:10< ancestral> shadowm: It’s my first piece of agenda in the morning
20151215 06:58:24< ancestral> If it works, I’m ready
20151215 06:58:25< Johnny_> I also telling you how to find them, 
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20151215 06:59:11< fendrin> IE 12 has no code in there that manipulates the recall lists.
20151215 07:00:18< Johnny_> I am not sure what to think about the caps, but I would like it it their was not :((
20151215 07:00:47< fendrin> Johnny_: Which version of Wesnoth?
20151215 07:00:51< fendrin> What campaign?
20151215 07:00:55< fendrin> which sceanrio?
20151215 07:02:48< Johnny_> caps have been around for some time.   yes, I am aware of one of them and why it is their, but just try the Idea I suggest, then you will see what I mean about caps.
20151215 07:04:49< fendrin> So your idea is to try any campaign, at any wesnoth version?
20151215 07:05:06< fendrin> And you are aware of one of them and why but you don't tell me?
20151215 07:06:30< vultraz> shadowm: I just realized yesterday that the wose portraits aren't mentioned in the changelog
20151215 07:06:34< vultraz> or my map_file key..
20151215 07:07:37< vultraz> shadowm: also how long do you want the intro blurb?
20151215 07:07:39< Johnny_> it is just because of the scenario, meaning only on one scenario that is the only one I know it. 
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20151215 07:08:15< fendrin> Johnny_: And what scenario are you talking about?
20151215 07:08:18< shadowm> vultraz: It's the holiday season, so you probably should at least reference that in some way? It's funny you are asking me seeing as how you are the communications guy now.
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20151215 07:08:54< shadowm> And yes, I realize you asked me about the length, not the content. I believe I don't need to explain how utterly pointless length is as a metric with text.
20151215 07:09:06< Johnny_> Fendrin it is in Heir to the Throne and on only one scenario. but in all camps and scenario I notice a cap on about 30 units.
20151215 07:10:16< Johnny_> fendrin now do you kind of see what I see??
20151215 07:10:31< fendrin> most likely not :-)
20151215 07:11:12< Johnny_> Fendrin play a scenario with over 30 units, and after you win it. you will only be able to recall about 30 of them.
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20151215 07:13:01< Johnny_> ancestral are you stil here??
20151215 07:13:07< ancestral> Yes
20151215 07:13:24< Johnny_> gmornin appleman, sory no apples for me today. LOL
20151215 07:14:08< ancestral> Johnny_: Do you know how to file a bug report, or feature request?
20151215 07:14:27< ancestral> for Wesnoth
20151215 07:14:27< Johnny_> Frendrin does that help, any ??
20151215 07:15:03< Johnny_> I just thought I would come here instead. :((
20151215 07:15:10< ancestral> That’s okay
20151215 07:15:24< fendrin> Well, I will try to reproduce.
20151215 07:15:27< fendrin> But that needs some time.
20151215 07:15:44< ancestral> It’s great to discuss things with others, but there are many, many bugs and feature requests. Having them in a tracker helps keep track of them.
20151215 07:16:03< fendrin> So it is most likely a bug.
20151215 07:16:09< ancestral> And it allows other people who aren’t in the channel right now to test it too!
20151215 07:16:10< fendrin> Since I never heard of that limit before.
20151215 07:16:51< Johnny_> Fendrin use debug it will work faster
20151215 07:17:05< ancestral> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Reportingbugs
20151215 07:17:53< vultraz> shadowm: I have something, but it's kinda cheesy 
20151215 07:18:10< shadowm> Ugh, then it probably is horrible.
20151215 07:18:29< Johnny_> Ancestral they did this many many versions ago, so I don't think it is a bug and I don't think it is coming back.
20151215 07:19:03< ancestral> Johnny_: So maybe it was in an old version?
20151215 07:19:58< Johnny_> nope I have one of the Most update to date.  I old versions their was no cap, but Lately their has been some.
20151215 07:20:13< ancestral> The last stable and development versions are the ones we’re concerned about. If it happens in 1.12.* or 1.13.* then it is of interest and worth reporting
20151215 07:20:21< Johnny_> typo in older versions.
20151215 07:21:07< ancestral> Even if it turns out that, say, the development staff believes it’s expected and/or required behavior
20151215 07:21:18< ancestral> Johnny_: It
20151215 07:21:33< ancestral> It’s better to report a bug that might not be a bug then never report them ;-)
20151215 07:21:59< Johnny_> lol true, 
20151215 07:22:21< Johnny_> I think thy are ware of it and they did it on purpose.
20151215 07:22:38< fendrin> we are they
20151215 07:22:42< shadowm> I'm sure the Wesnoth devs aren't so silly as to place an arbitrary limit on recalls.
20151215 07:22:51< fendrin> and I don't know about it
20151215 07:22:53< shadowm> Not on purpose, and not in mainline, anyawy.
20151215 07:23:42< ancestral> When it comes to this sort of thing, what motivates me is to make things better.
20151215 07:24:18< ancestral> If you feel this might make Wesnoth better (you did say this as the very first thing after all!)
20151215 07:24:38< ancestral> Then submitting the bug report is a good idea
20151215 07:24:57< Johnny_> true
20151215 07:25:11< Johnny_> Fendrin now do believe me??
20151215 07:25:30< fendrin> You might have discovered a bug.
20151215 07:25:40< fendrin> But I don't think it was on purpose.
20151215 07:25:45< ancestral> It doesn’t take very long, and if you really want, I’ll walk you through it
20151215 07:26:03< fendrin> wesnoth isn't building here for some reason
20151215 07:26:26< Johnny_> don't worry about it. if I did it is very Minor. 
20151215 07:27:16< Johnny_> just inform people, I feel it was on Purpose, but every person has a point of view what to think.
20151215 07:27:25< ancestral> We submit bugs for UI glitches, missing sounds, names that are misspelled. Minor issues are good to report too.
20151215 07:27:55< ancestral> Johnny_: There could be a very good reason, and all the same, there could be no reason at all for the limit
20151215 07:27:58< Johnny_> that is why I came up with a great idea for this issue.
20151215 07:29:05< Johnny_> just keep the thought going around for others to look into this. if it is a bug it has been around for quite some times.
20151215 07:29:34< shadowm> Look, the worst thing that can happen is that your bug will be marked Invalid or Won't Fix and then forgotten forever. It's not the end of the world if it turns out there's a valid reason for the behavior you're observing (and the only possible valid reason is having an add-on installed that limits your recall list).
20151215 07:30:08< Johnny_> sorry got to run. have gr8 day and have a gr8 Holiday. 
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20151215 07:30:21< fendrin> hmmm
20151215 07:30:36< ancestral> Always assume everyone has a super short attention span.
20151215 07:31:08< ancestral> This is something I learned having worked at a job.
20151215 07:31:31< shadowm> Much emphasis, very important.
20151215 07:32:02< ancestral> Maybe he’ll learn that one day…
20151215 07:32:03< fendrin> recall_list is just a vector
20151215 07:32:13< shadowm> As for possible reasons for such a bug: memory corruption, memory corruption, memory corruption, or a debug aid that someone accidentally committed.
20151215 07:32:16< fendrin> I can't imagine what kind of bug would cap that vector at 30
20151215 07:32:25< ancestral> 32 is 2^8
20151215 07:32:35< ancestral> Sorry, wrong number
20151215 07:32:39< ancestral> 2&5
20151215 07:32:49< fendrin> :-)
20151215 07:32:52 * ancestral can’t type
20151215 07:33:06< ancestral> 32 is close to 30
20151215 07:33:14< fendrin> Yeah
20151215 07:33:18< fendrin> Maybe he is right
20151215 07:33:38< fendrin> and there is a bug
20151215 07:33:50< ancestral> Funny thing is this would actually be a pretty awesome bug
20151215 07:34:06< fendrin> I just don't get why he insists that it was introduced on purpose.
20151215 07:34:18< fendrin> By that scary "them" folk.
20151215 07:34:38< shadowm> It shouldn't be too hard for someone skilled in Lua to concoct a simple test case with a zillion units.
20151215 07:34:54< shadowm> Then advance the scenario and check if the unit count is the same on both sides of the transition.
20151215 07:36:04< shadowm> Who added wesnoth.effects?
20151215 07:36:47< shadowm> gfgtdf: wesnoth.effects isn't documented yet either it seems, along with [resource].
20151215 07:37:52< vultraz> did I document map_file... ive forgotten...
20151215 07:38:10< shadowm> Maybe I'm underestimating people's clairvoyance skills, but somehow I don't think it's the best idea to add items to R_N without also making sure to document them on the wiki for posterity.
20151215 07:39:11< shadowm> (Also, just a thought, perhaps I should go back to pestering people to document their stuff after pushing, or designate a lackey to do that for me.)
20151215 07:39:46< ancestral> You can’t submit anonymous bug reports anymore?
20151215 07:40:00< shadowm> Nah, Gna.org bugged out.
20151215 07:40:18< ancestral> Oh, maybe I need an originator email 
20151215 07:40:38< shadowm> Not really sure if that'll help, I suspect it won't.
20151215 07:43:29< fendrin> I just translated the wesmere. lua api into moonscript and the wiki into ldoc. There are a lot of strange things in there.
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20151215 07:44:24< shadowm> Tempted to phase out Xdelta patches or at the very least drop them from announcements.
20151215 07:45:16< fendrin> s/wesmere/wesnoth
20151215 07:45:54< fendrin> Having all in one file helps a lot.
20151215 07:46:26< fendrin> Maybe someone wants to backport my work and then the api is autogenerated
20151215 07:47:17< shadowm> ancestral: Okay, so let me get this straight... Wesnoth's display looks absolutely garbled on 10.10 (with SDL 1.2) and the package won't run on previous versions unmodified?
20151215 07:47:49< ancestral> No, the display looks bad in 10.11 with SDL 1.2
20151215 07:48:05< shadowm> Oh, so it's fine on 10.10 then?
20151215 07:48:11< ancestral> Presumably
20151215 07:48:20< ancestral> Hence why I need to test it
20151215 07:48:39< ancestral> The package doesn’t want to run on other versions, other than the one it’s built for, unless the Pango files are swapped out
20151215 07:48:51< shadowm> Ever looked into system virtualization?
20151215 07:48:55< ancestral> (Two issues, I suppose)
20151215 07:49:06< ancestral> shadowm: Yeah, that would be nice
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20151215 07:50:11< shadowm> IIRC VirtualBox can run OS X on OS X.
20151215 07:50:18< ancestral> Well, I tried that
20151215 07:50:28< ancestral> Some versions work with some versions of VirtualBox
20151215 07:50:59< ancestral> I tried installing 10.6.3 on a version of VirtualBox. It worked, but then I updated to 10.6.8 and it broke
20151215 07:51:15< ancestral> I might have more success with a commercial product (like Parallels Desktop)
20151215 07:51:54< ancestral> The major problem I’d run into shortly is disk space. My SSD is relatively tiny, so external storage is probably easier. At which point, if the computer can boot into it, why not do it natively?
20151215 07:52:22< ancestral> But, long term, sure, I’m with you. Virtualization is pretty awesome.
20151215 07:52:45< shadowm> Because some of us don't want to reboot to perform some quick (10 mins approx) software testing.
20151215 07:53:22< ancestral> Yes, true
20151215 07:53:52< shadowm> And I can't stand Windows as an OS, so if I have the option to not use all its functionality I'll surely take it. ;)
20151215 07:57:55< ancestral> Now you have me thinking, if Parallels Desktop can do it
20151215 08:01:21< fendrin> okay, can't reproduce the 30 something unit limit on current master. 
20151215 08:01:25< fendrin> httt 
20151215 08:01:31< fendrin> done manually not scripted 
20151215 08:02:02< fendrin> although memory issues tend to be heisenbugs
20151215 08:03:05< ancestral> fendrin: I got suckered into submitting it: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?24180
20151215 08:03:37< fendrin> yeah, can't hurt :-)
20151215 08:03:37-!- shikadibot [~shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20151215 08:03:59< shadowm> shikadibot: file /src/display_chat_manager.cpp
20151215 08:03:59< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL to file src/display_chat_manager.cpp: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/display_chat_manager.cpp
20151215 08:05:39< shadowm> neverEnough_: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/game_preferences.cpp#L364 -- Pretty sure the logic here is backwards if I'm supposed to be able to see disconnection notifications.
20151215 08:07:27< fendrin> Now I have 50 Ancient Lich + Delfador
20151215 08:07:39< fendrin> I should play httt with them.
20151215 08:07:52< vultraz> hah!
20151215 08:08:51< fendrin> It feels somehow strange that they all have no name
20151215 08:09:12< ancestral> I suppose when you’re as old as an ancient lich
20151215 08:09:23< fendrin> I forgot my name?
20151215 08:09:23< ancestral> You’ve probably forgotten what your name was
20151215 08:09:27< fendrin> :-)
20151215 08:11:32< fendrin> Hmmm, the water hypnotizes me
20151215 08:11:44< fendrin> s/the water/the new water
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20151215 08:14:07< vultraz> indeed
20151215 08:16:04< shadowm> neverEnough_: NEVER MIND WHAT I SAID I'm dumb.
20151215 08:16:54< shadowm> Although...
20151215 08:17:21< shadowm> Why am I not seeing the message when All is selected in preferences then...
20151215 08:18:10-!- ancestral [~ancestral@184-100-99-25.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: End Transmission.]
20151215 08:19:00< shadowm> Oh ahahahahahaha this has a server-side component to it and I haven't rebuilt the server yet.
20151215 08:21:20< Aginor> 'lo
20151215 08:22:04< vultraz> Aginor: so, uh, still waiting to merge?
20151215 08:22:12< shadowm> Hi there Aginor.
20151215 08:22:38 * shadowm raises an eyebrow at vultraz.
20151215 08:24:44< shadowm> Okay I chose a really bad time of day to do this.
20151215 08:25:16< shadowm> Ah, there it is.
20151215 08:25:35< Aginor> vultraz: yes...
20151215 08:26:05< Aginor> I haven't gotten a "release is done" email yet :)
20151215 08:26:29< vultraz> shadowm: why are you keeping him waiting :|
20151215 08:26:42< Aginor> vultraz: I can wait longer
20151215 08:26:51< Aginor> it's more important to not screw up a release
20151215 08:27:11< shadowm> I was just going to authorize the merge but then you made that face.
20151215 08:27:25< shadowm> Now I'm unsure if you understand why I kept him waiting.
20151215 08:28:05< vultraz> God dammit
20151215 08:28:23< shadowm> Aginor: Anyway, since getting the announcement out has taken much longer than I originally intended for reasons beyond my control, just... merge away. If things go horribly wrong with 1.13.2 I'll just fork 1.13.2 into a branch and have people push changes there. (But at this point it's highly unlikely it'll be necessary.)
20151215 08:28:25< fendrin> popcorn!
20151215 08:28:40< Aginor> shadowm: all good
20151215 08:29:05< Aginor> I'll probably not hit the button tonight though, I am tired and want to go to bed early. Tomorrow or Thursday it'll happen though
20151215 08:29:57< shadowm> I apologize for keeping you waiting through the weekend. I also apologize to vultraz for not being in control of my health.
20151215 08:30:18< vultraz> Well now you make me feel like an ass :|
20151215 08:30:24< Aginor> shadowm: look after yourself, worry less about this :)
20151215 08:30:25< vultraz> I wasn't aware that was a ting
20151215 08:30:43< Aginor> vultraz: if in doubt, don't be an ass.
20151215 08:30:46< Aginor> :D
20151215 08:30:50< Aginor> life philosophy
20151215 08:31:06< Aginor> it's much harder to live up to than it sounds
20151215 08:32:22< shadowm> neverEnough_: Okay, just tested again, it's all good, don't worry about it.
20151215 08:39:50< shadowm> The server is very displeased by my multitasking.
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20151215 08:42:24< shadowm>   Last response time: 7.1 s
20151215 08:44:18< shadowm> vultraz: Wose portraits?
20151215 08:44:26< vultraz> shadowm: indeed
20151215 08:44:31< vultraz> well, singular
20151215 08:44:55< shadowm> Ah, a new Ancient Wose portrait.
20151215 08:45:24< shadowm> Is there anywhere nice to show it off?
20151215 08:45:52< vultraz> Uh...
20151215 08:46:04< vultraz> I think i tried to figure that out when I screenshotsaturdayed it
20151215 08:46:09< shadowm> DM's "Ur-Thorodor" scenario, got it.
20151215 08:46:40< shadowm> Yeah what happened to screenshot Wednesdays?
20151215 08:46:51< shadowm> You've not really done that in months I think.
20151215 08:47:24< shadowm> And I told you you might want to find other people to help you with that stuff.
20151215 08:49:06< shadowm> I'm going to make the server even sadder by uploading the shots.
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20151215 09:13:28< shadowm> vultraz: Updated draft, will work on the front page post later.
20151215 09:14:48< shadowm> Oh crap.
20151215 09:15:17< shadowm> Can people even access the 1.13 campaignd?
20151215 09:17:23< vultraz> shadowm: good intro
20151215 09:17:48< shadowm> Okay, if they couldn't then they now certainly can.
20151215 09:19:46< shadowm> Eh, just realized that I picked the worst possible screenshot for the new water.
20151215 09:19:55< shadowm> DW S1 is all shallow water.
20151215 09:20:21< shadowm> Not to mention that it's the turquoise variant.
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20151215 13:12:20< zookeeper> shadowm, vultraz, uh, where are you keeping the draft? there's no WIP thread in the mod forum as usual
20151215 13:12:32< vultraz> uh
20151215 13:12:34< vultraz> there is?
20151215 13:12:45< zookeeper> oh. duh. there is.
20151215 13:13:00< vultraz> :P
20151215 13:13:01< zookeeper> i just missed it
20151215 13:13:04< vultraz> silly zo
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20151215 13:13:09< vultraz> zookeeper*
20151215 13:13:26< zookeeper> yes
20151215 13:20:42< vultraz> zookeeper: btw about that 'handle internally as color= thing"... basically what I'm doing now is calling the same function withd ifferent color creation functions.. do you want me to make it so red,green.blue= gets concatenated into one color= string and then passed using one method to the function>
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20151215 13:27:04< vultraz> ie, always do function(string_to_color(color)))
20151215 13:27:32< vultraz> instead of function(create_color(rec, green, blue)) OR function(string_to_color(color))
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20151215 13:33:46< zookeeper> uh, what would the user-facing difference be?
20151215 13:36:16< vultraz> nothing
20151215 13:36:23< vultraz> (i do need to remove the deprecating warning)
20151215 13:37:52< zookeeper> well then i have no opinion
20151215 13:43:31< vultraz> ok ill leave it as in
20151215 13:43:34< vultraz> is*
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20151215 13:59:32< gfgtdf> shadowm: i documented [resource] and wesnoth.effects http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Units#wesnoth.effects and http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ModificationWML#The%20[resource]%20toplevel%20tag
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20151215 15:08:11< irker694> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 9eb6e66e7b9e / src/ (help/help_text_area.cpp map_label.cpp sdl/utils.cpp sdl/utils.hpp): Reimplement string_to_color, using map label implementation http://git.io/v0aDp
20151215 15:08:12< irker694> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 5813eb0aadfb / src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Pass color value directly to game_display::float_label http://git.io/v0aye
20151215 15:08:13< irker694> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 43709fe49d97 / src/unit_frame.cpp: Simplify color creation case in unit_frame::redraw http://git.io/v0ayv
20151215 15:08:15< irker694> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master c43df77725c9 / src/ (game_events/action_wml.cpp map_label.cpp scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp): Added support for color= in [unstore_unit] and [print] http://git.io/v0ayJ
20151215 15:08:18< irker694> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 65c0df23432c / data/core/macros/image-utils.cfg: Updated COLOR_* macros to use color= http://git.io/v0ayU
20151215 15:10:08< vultraz> zookeeper, celticminstrel ^
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20151215 15:32:08< irker694> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 61740fe3c0b6 / src/game_initialization/ (connect_engine.cpp flg_manager.cpp): Remove no_recruit flag (experimental) http://git.io/v0ah6
20151215 15:43:32< celticminstrel> I still think it's better to keep alpha as a separate key, if we want to add it eventually.
20151215 15:43:57< celticminstrel> That's already how it's done in animations, I think. Though I haven't looked at the code.
20151215 15:45:18< gfgtdf> vultraz: does this also implement opracy for floating labels?
20151215 15:45:58< irker694> wesnoth: CelticMinstrel wesnoth:master b5b907afd3c2 / data/core/macros/image-utils.cfg: Include all components in COLOR_* macros http://git.io/v0VLh
20151215 15:46:23< vultraz> celticminstrel: not strictly necessary but ok
20151215 15:46:32< vultraz> gfgtdf: I haven't tested but I believe it might
20151215 15:46:39< celticminstrel> I actually think it'd be good if the game gave an error if there aren't exactly three components.
20151215 15:46:42< vultraz> in sdl2 of course
20151215 15:46:45< celticminstrel> Or, at least a warning.
20151215 15:46:53< vultraz> celticminstrel: what for?
20151215 15:46:55< celticminstrel> I know it's not "strictly necessary" but I think it's better.
20151215 15:47:10< celticminstrel> But whatever.
20151215 15:47:19< celticminstrel> That's my opinion, anyway.
20151215 15:49:33< vultraz> gfgtdf: the alpha field isn't even used in sdl1.2
20151215 15:49:53< celticminstrel> It's not like SDL1.2 doesn't support alpha.
20151215 15:50:11< celticminstrel> Whether or not it uses the fourth field in the colour struct isn't the point here.
20151215 15:50:13 * vultraz shrugs
20151215 15:50:39< celticminstrel> Judging by the code, I don't think your PR allows for opacity in floating labels.
20151215 15:50:50< celticminstrel> Though I guess it does depend on string2rgb.
20151215 15:51:04< celticminstrel> Actually no, it doesn't.
20151215 15:51:15< celticminstrel> Because int_to_color only uses the RGB components.
20151215 15:51:27< celticminstrel> So yeah, pretty sure it doesn't. Unless map labels somehow already supported it.
20151215 15:52:01< celticminstrel> zookeeper disagrees with me on how opacity should be implemented.
20151215 15:52:18< vultraz> honestly
20151215 15:52:31< vultraz> i dunno if we should handle opacity on the tag level
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20151215 15:53:09< celticminstrel> Well, animations already do.
20151215 15:53:32< gfgtdf> are there any usecases where one woudl want proacy in those cases?
20151215 15:53:34< celticminstrel> Oh, I thought it was an opacity= key, but apparently it's actually an alpha= key.
20151215 15:53:45< celticminstrel> Would want what? Opacity?
20151215 15:54:12< vultraz> we could just leave it as the 4th argument of color
20151215 15:55:12< celticminstrel> That's what zookeeper suggested; I'm not so keen on it, but if that's what everyone prefers, then whatever. I think some people might look at that and think "what on earth could the 4th number be?".
20151215 15:55:26< vultraz> well, they can read the wiki :P
20151215 15:55:30< celticminstrel> True.
20151215 15:55:43< vultraz> we're not writing Programming For Dummies 
20151215 15:56:19< celticminstrel> We could also expand string_to_color to support other modes.
20151215 15:56:26< celticminstrel> Something like rgb(1,2,3)
20151215 15:56:35< celticminstrel> Then to use alpha they'd say rgba(1,2,3,4)
20151215 15:56:58< vultraz> we could
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20151215 15:58:12< vultraz> but not right now
20151215 15:58:16< celticminstrel> Sure.
20151215 15:58:28< vultraz> next on my list of Things To Do...
20151215 15:58:39< vultraz> I'm considering removing small_profile 
20151215 15:58:41< celticminstrel> Though I might try it after I finally finish the unit saving thing.
20151215 15:59:03< vultraz> the only reason we have the small-sized portraits is for the help system
20151215 15:59:12< vultraz> but we can just scale them down
20151215 15:59:20< vultraz> so, there's really no reason to keep them around
20151215 15:59:49< celticminstrel> There might be some particular reason why the help system has small portraits. Maybe the scaling is harder than you think.
20151215 16:00:01< vultraz> Well
20151215 16:00:07< celticminstrel> But I do agree with the thought. It's kinda silly to have two of every generic portrait.
20151215 16:00:09< vultraz> a few portraits have small crops
20151215 16:00:17< vultraz> as well as a scale
20151215 16:00:29< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20151215 16:01:59< celticminstrel> Those could be done with IPF, but if you were to do that, then you would have to keep small_profile (and just delete the image files).
20151215 16:11:13 * Soliton . o O ("we're not writing Programming For Dummies"  does that mean you have to be an expert programmer to write WML? you'll have to read the documentation carefully because we will not expend any effort to make things easy and intuitive?)
20151215 16:11:48< vultraz> No
20151215 16:12:03< vultraz> Just that we shouldn't worry too much about things like "the 4th number is alpha""
20151215 16:13:24< Soliton> ok. so "no" but really yes.
20151215 16:16:57< vultraz> It's also weird to say that we're not expending effort to make things simple and intuitive when I recently reimplemented one of the huge violators of that (the old MENU_IMG_TXT stuff) 
20151215 16:17:21< vultraz> with easy and intuitive standard WML
20151215 16:19:52< Soliton> i was wondering if that's the direction we're going in based on what i quoted not anything else.
20151215 16:20:07< vultraz> It is not.
20151215 16:21:33< Soliton> well, seems like it if an alpha key or rgba hint like proposed above is not worth it because some wiki page explains what all the numbers mean.
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20151215 16:51:50< zookeeper> well i think rgba is a very basic concept, as far as games and modding goes. if someone understands that three numbers means rgb, then i doubt they fail to guess that an optional fourth number means rgba.
20151215 16:52:23< zookeeper> s/number/value
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20151215 17:29:23< vultraz> celticminstrel: the crop changes in the small profile is usually minimal
20151215 17:29:54< celticminstrel> What was the original reason for having separate profile and small_profile?
20151215 17:30:18< vultraz> I assume to provide small versions for the help broweser 
20151215 17:30:20< vultraz> browser 
20151215 17:30:27< celticminstrel> But why?
20151215 17:30:29< vultraz> zookeeper: true?
20151215 17:30:38< vultraz> celticminstrel: I assume because of space issues
20151215 17:31:34< zookeeper> true, most likely
20151215 17:32:43< zookeeper> you can crop off tops of spears and other stuff that would otherwise make the small profile too small
20151215 17:33:19< vultraz> I'm considering a design for the unit pages that would use the full profile
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20151215 17:35:00< vultraz> guess I'd need to make it gui2 first, though
20151215 17:35:02< vultraz> bleh
20151215 17:35:27< celticminstrel> That'd be a lot of work, I expect.
20151215 17:35:36< vultraz> indeed :P
20151215 17:36:05< vultraz> plus not even sure if gui2 can handle it
20151215 17:40:06< zookeeper> what we really need
20151215 17:40:11< zookeeper> is GUI3
20151215 17:40:35< vultraz> no no
20151215 17:40:37< vultraz> GUI X
20151215 17:40:38< vultraz> :P
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20151215 18:19:34< Kwandulin> What does 'parry' do? Found here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EffectWML
20151215 18:27:42< celticminstrel> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UnitTypeWML#Attacks
20151215 18:32:41< Kwandulin> sounds nice
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20151215 19:10:56< Necrosporus> What game engine would you recommend for an rpg with most of game play consisting of fighting? I thought about using wesnoth engine, but juding how slow it was in the only RPG I have seen, I guess it's not a very good idea
20151215 19:13:28< iceiceice> Necrosporus: choosing a game engine depends a lot on your goals for the project
20151215 19:15:03< celticminstrel> Yeah, Wesnoth isn't an RPG after all.
20151215 19:15:24< Necrosporus> Even though it works for Trader Strange Legacy
20151215 19:15:35< Necrosporus> But each save is about 6 megabytes
20151215 19:16:44< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: each save beeing 6 megabytes isnt really wesnoth engines fault
20151215 19:16:46< celticminstrel> I'm working on reducing save size a bit.
20151215 19:17:07< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: It's partly Wesnoth's fault since it stores a very large amount of redundant information in the save file.
20151215 19:17:12< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: most large saves are cuaes by wml actionwml using a lot of macros
20151215 19:17:20< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, wesnoth saves a lot of redundant data, including complete replay
20151215 19:17:25< celticminstrel> But, it could be partly the scenario's fault, too.
20151215 19:17:44< Necrosporus> It's not the problem by itself
20151215 19:18:00< Necrosporus> but each turn in that addon is slooow unless you disable autosave
20151215 19:18:04< celticminstrel> What gfgtdf is mentioning is events, I guess...
20151215 19:18:17< celticminstrel> I wonder if there's a way to cut events from the save file.
20151215 19:18:37< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes there is: you cna use lua +wesnoth.dofile/require
20151215 19:18:45< celticminstrel> No, that's not it.
20151215 19:18:46< gfgtdf> can*
20151215 19:19:02< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, maybe you should not cut events
20151215 19:19:05< celticminstrel> I think there is a way, actually.
20151215 19:19:07< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: sure thats it
20151215 19:19:13< Necrosporus> but should we use it?
20151215 19:19:19< celticminstrel> But only for events with a uniquely defined id= key.
20151215 19:19:26< Necrosporus> Wesnoth isn't RPG engine
20151215 19:19:57< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Bringing up Lua isn't the point here. The point is if there's a way to omit events from the save file without rewriting them as Lua.
20151215 19:20:03< celticminstrel> And I think there might be.
20151215 19:20:17< celticminstrel> But it would require a little work on the part of the scenario author too.
20151215 19:20:36< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well you dont need to rewrite them in lua you can just write them ibn lau to begin with
20151215 19:20:57< shadowm> gfgtdf: So you did, but you didn't add them to the LuaWML index or Templte:WML_Tags.
20151215 19:20:59< celticminstrel> Some people probably find ActionWML easier to deal with.
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20151215 19:21:30< celticminstrel> Also, using ActionWML means they don't have to go learn another language.
20151215 19:21:37< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: ??
20151215 19:21:39< celticminstrel> I do agree that using Lua is better, mind you.
20151215 19:21:41< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: you ahve to learn wml
20151215 19:21:50< celticminstrel> Yes, I know.
20151215 19:21:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: and lua is mcuh more commonly used
20151215 19:22:00< celticminstrel> But you don't have to also learn Lua.
20151215 19:22:21< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, I have always used actionwml though
20151215 19:22:30< Necrosporus> I do not know how to use lua for that
20151215 19:22:50< celticminstrel> It's sort of a different style if you do it in Lua.
20151215 19:23:14< celticminstrel> Especially if you do pure Lua with no [event] tags (which I'm pretty sure is possible).
20151215 19:23:55< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: in current wesnoth version there is no way to have [event]s witohut writing them so savefiles.
20151215 19:24:10< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: this sure doesnt mean that you cannot make teh savegames smaller
20151215 19:24:15< celticminstrel> Right, and what I said is that that could possibly be changed.
20151215 19:24:43< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: often the used actionswml is quite redundant, specially when long macros are used
20151215 19:24:51< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, and how do you do an event without [event]?
20151215 19:25:07< celticminstrel> You don't need to save events that were added from units, so if you can identify that an event comes from a unit, you can omit it.
20151215 19:25:53< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y that makes sense, and it wouldnt ba hard to implement it: those events ar alraady marked in the game engine
20151215 19:26:00< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: There's an event hook in Lua, as I recall. It's not as convenient as using [event] though, I think. Lua should probably add some better interfaces to the event system.
20151215 19:26:12< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: but note that changing the orderof the events migth change teh gamestate
20151215 19:26:23< celticminstrel> The other type of event that you might be able to omit is one that has an ID.
20151215 19:26:48< celticminstrel> Or rather, you could reduce such an event to a mere [event]id=blah[/event] declaration or something similar.
20151215 19:26:58< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: events with ids can also be created dynamically
20151215 19:27:14< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: it is quite possibel the the content of one event with the same id changes during a sceanrios
20151215 19:27:58< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, why not to keep entire game state in safe though? There's and advantage that you could recover remote scenario from any save made with that scenario and examine it for say cheats (like events which adds gold to other side)
20151215 19:28:12< celticminstrel> I think with regards to unit events there's not really a need to worry about changing the order, as there's no guarantee about the order already. If they can be created dynamically, then that could cause some problems, but if the contents can change, that's more significant of a problem. I think both problems are solvable, but not sure if it's actually worth it.
20151215 19:28:36< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: there is guaranetee about the order
20151215 19:28:58< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, I create events from within events quite often
20151215 19:28:58< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: the [event] is added when the unittype is added to the scenario the first time
20151215 19:29:25< Necrosporus> for example if you want to set turn limit after the gamer finds a certain point
20151215 19:29:31< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: Obviously you do need the entire game state, but in some cases you could reduce save size by referencing back to the scenario file rather than duplicating.
20151215 19:29:56< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: Also, an [event] within an [event] isn't really a problem.
20151215 19:30:01< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, what if you change scenario file without replacing saves?
20151215 19:30:17< celticminstrel> If it's referencing, it would then use the updated events.
20151215 19:30:22< celticminstrel> Which is, usually, a good thing.
20151215 19:30:46< Necrosporus> What happens currently if you say, save, then remove scenario and load a save?
20151215 19:31:03< celticminstrel> I think it can still load.
20151215 19:31:29< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: wel it wont work correcntly then, but this is alreydy teh case for other ressources liek units
20151215 19:31:36< celticminstrel> Is it really true that the content of an event can change, though? I don't know of any way to actually do that (and [insert_tag] doesn't count, because the content of the event should be thought of as its pre-substitution form).
20151215 19:31:58< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well you can remove teh event and create a different event with the same id
20151215 19:32:04< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, create and event within event with same id?
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20151215 19:32:40< celticminstrel> That's not a case of the content of an event changing though. That's a case of duplicate IDs, which would be something that would need to be warned about or something.
20151215 19:33:26< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: but currentl that allowed without problems and im quite sure that there are people who do examctly that
20151215 19:34:04< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: do you know this fr: https://gna.org/bugs/?23917 ?
20151215 19:34:20< celticminstrel> I think the only way to deal with duplicate IDs under the system I was outlining would be to detect them and then treat them the same as an event with an ID - ie, write them to the save file in full.
20151215 19:34:50< celticminstrel> Const events...
20151215 19:35:01< celticminstrel> I think I might've seen that.
20151215 19:35:35< celticminstrel> Hmm, events are stored in two separate places in the savefile?
20151215 19:36:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: also note that referencinf such local resources automatically required all players of a mp game to download that adon
20151215 19:36:21< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes every savefile confaint two 'gamestates'
20151215 19:36:24< gfgtdf> contains
20151215 19:36:25< celticminstrel> Actually, come to think of it, couldn't they just be completely removed from [replay_start]? The events at [replay_start] should be identical to the initial state given in the scenario file, right?
20151215 19:37:05< Necrosporus> I wonder if it would be a good idea, to rewrite wesnoth completely, using accumulated experience and porting good parts, and replacing WML completely with some other language, designed from scratch. Perhaps some sort of YAML
20151215 19:37:10< celticminstrel> You're wrong about downloading though, if I understand it correctly - it would require the person who loads the save to have the add-on, but once it's loaded, it shouldn't matter, right?
20151215 19:37:24< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: the content of replay_start is used for replays and people who replay a scsnario often dont have teh location [scenario] available
20151215 19:37:48< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: im not wrong.
20151215 19:38:13< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: That would take forever and, more likely than not, fizzle out a quarter of the way through. Though I've heard at least one person might be attempting it already.
20151215 19:38:27< Necrosporus> btw it would be nice if replays worked even if you have a never version of addon or game installed
20151215 19:38:46< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Ah, I see, maybe removing it from [replay_start] isn't such a good idea... but, what about storing it in [replay_start] only for replay scenarios and omitting it there for scenarios that have a [snapshot]?
20151215 19:38:47< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: at teh beginning of every game teh host sends a 'savefile' to the other players, whcih si tehn used for al plaers startign points.
20151215 19:39:49< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Ah. Well, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to amend that "savefile" a little before sending it, by inserting any referenced events or whatever else.
20151215 19:39:59< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm but then the [replay_start] woudlnt be available when relaoding a save and thus isnt avaialable at the end of teh scenario when the replay file is created.
20151215 19:40:19< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Is the replay file normally created on all clients?
20151215 19:41:07< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, why do you want to do it at all? Is it just because I complained about oversized savefiles? I think that it's the problem of trader strange legacy, because it's very complex and stores lost of variables
20151215 19:41:56< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: You could very well be right there, but it's still true that Wesnoth savefiles store a lot of redundant information, and I think if there's a way to eliminate that, it wouldn't be a bad thing.
20151215 19:42:57< celticminstrel> Maybe the omission of events from [replay_start] is a bad idea, but... given that all the initial events are right there in [replay_start], maybe the [snapshot] version of the events could be tweaked to reference those from [replay_start] rather than duplicating them.
20151215 19:43:06< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes, whevery the game notices that is has no [replay_start] it created one. Specially this menas that if you remove the [replay_start] and [replay] from a arbitary savefile and load it., the game will create a [reply_start] form that snapshow which allows you to replay the scenario starting form the snapshot of that savefile
20151215 19:43:19< celticminstrel> I guess that idea was indeed a flop, then.
20151215 19:43:46< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: we also have this fr: https://gna.org/bugs/?23353
20151215 19:43:51< celticminstrel> (Note that I wasn't talking about omitting the [replay_start] altogether though, just the events within it. But that's over now, I guess it's a bad idea.)
20151215 19:44:08< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: it basiacally suggest to store teh replay_start ina  speraate file which is the referenced form other savefiles
20151215 19:44:38< celticminstrel> I think that would be bad, except maybe for autosaves.
20151215 19:45:04< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: why woudl that e bad?
20151215 19:45:16< celticminstrel> The last line of the FR basically sums it up.
20151215 19:45:39< celticminstrel> But for autosaves I think it would be fine.
20151215 19:45:40< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: the last line also suggests a fix for that problem
20151215 19:45:58< celticminstrel> Well, doing it only for autosaves would also be a fix for the problem.
20151215 19:46:21< celticminstrel> That would mean adding a fourth savefile type though.
20151215 19:46:24< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: you can also sens autosaves to others...
20151215 19:46:33< celticminstrel> Right now you can, yeah.
20151215 19:46:40< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: really, there is not difference beween autosaves and normal saves
20151215 19:46:49< celticminstrel> I know.
20151215 19:47:20< celticminstrel> I'm suggesting that, if FR 23353 were implemented, it might be better to add that distinction and only apply it to autosaves.
20151215 19:48:21< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i dont see why
20151215 19:51:06< celticminstrel> The vast majority of saves are probably autosaves (assuming most people leave the feature enabled).
20151215 19:52:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: only a very little part of teh saves are autosaves, becasue by defult teh game onyl keeps ~10 sutosaves
20151215 19:52:07< celticminstrel> But I think saves that are not autosaves are more likely to be sent to others. This is just my opinion though.
20151215 19:55:20< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, I set autosave limit to maximum
20151215 19:55:28< celticminstrel> Hmm, something like FR 23353 could be done by having mid-game saves reference the start-of-scenario save, though that would be a little different.
20151215 19:55:37< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: I think I've set it pretty high too, not sure if it's max.
20151215 19:56:07< Necrosporus> max is unlimited, though I set it to max value under the unlimited
20151215 19:56:13< celticminstrel> If it's just referencing a start-of-scenario save, maybe there's no need for an Export Game button - you just need to send two files instead of one.
20151215 19:57:24< Necrosporus> its not very convenient
20151215 19:57:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: start of senario saves are quite different from [replay_start] (start of scenario saves basiaball reference the [scenario] id)
20151215 19:57:33< Necrosporus> I doubt that it's a big deal
20151215 19:57:35< celticminstrel> True.
20151215 19:58:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: in the orignal suggestion is also just sending 2 files instead of one (the savefiel and the [replay_start] file)
20151215 19:58:04< Necrosporus> I mean that wesnoth self-contained saves have their plus sides too
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20151215 19:58:23< celticminstrel> So what do you think of events in [snapshot] referencing back to their definitions in [replay_start] instead of repeating those definitions?
20151215 19:59:05< Necrosporus> only if you implement some mechanics to make saves with same id same
20151215 19:59:14< celticminstrel> Maybe it could even be done without event IDs... reference by an index list instead...
20151215 19:59:25< Necrosporus> though why would you do it anyway? Are events that big?
20151215 19:59:30< celticminstrel> They can be.
20151215 19:59:41< celticminstrel> Events can get huge sometimes.
20151215 20:00:37< Necrosporus> for example?
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20151215 20:01:43< aquileia> <vultraz> celticminstrel: the crop changes in the small profile is usually minimal
20151215 20:02:05< gfgtdf> Necrosporus:  in addons like 'Trader Strange Legacy' events or [menu_item]s are a huge part of the data.
20151215 20:02:25< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: you know that mp addon between 'darness and light'?
20151215 20:03:31< aquileia> vultraz: Ahem... no? Kitty and LordBob rendered a few of the small portraits separately to improve readability, and e.g. lances are cropped at the top, which isn't allowed for the standard portraits
20151215 20:04:48< aquileia> I guess our interpolation algorithms are good enough to resize them, but we definitely need the option to crop them
20151215 20:05:20< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, nope
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20151215 20:06:24< Necrosporus> Is it a good addon?
20151215 20:06:33< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: well its savefiles are so big that when you save teh game and reload it the server refuses it becasue the wmldocument is too big.
20151215 20:07:10< Necrosporus> Oh
20151215 20:07:21< Necrosporus> how big is that big?
20151215 20:07:48< gfgtdf> 40mb i think but i'm not sure.
20151215 20:16:18< celticminstrel> [Dec 15@2:58:23pm] celticminstrel: So what do you think of events in [snapshot] referencing back to their definitions in [replay_start] instead of repeating those definitions?
20151215 20:16:21< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: ^
20151215 20:16:44< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y i forgot
20151215 20:17:03< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: that woudl be quite similar to the const events right?
20151215 20:17:44< celticminstrel> Yeah, I guess it would be similar, but without the concept of permancy or requiring the scenario author to explicitly allow it.
20151215 20:19:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm y i think this makes sense, but this then also means that savefiel will be rubbish if the [replay_start] is missing while previously it was just not possible toplay the replay then
20151215 20:20:33< celticminstrel> The only way [replay_start] would be missing is if someone edited to remove it, right?
20151215 20:21:06< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: maybe you can add a new part [common_events] or something to the savefile whcih contains those events which are tehn referenced from snapshow and replay_start?
20151215 20:21:10< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i think yes
20151215 20:21:40< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20151215 20:23:02< celticminstrel> I guess [replay_start] and [snapshot] have the same format currently?
20151215 20:23:13< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes
20151215 20:23:41< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: they are both created by play_controller::to_config
20151215 20:23:49< celticminstrel> I wonder if it's really important for it to work without [replay_start]...
20151215 20:25:43< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: there is this fr https://gna.org/bugs/?23354 whcih suggests to adda  noption to play wesnoth without replays whcih also impled to add an option to remove [replay_start] form savefiles
20151215 20:27:02< celticminstrel> If you remove [replay_start] and [replay] from a saved game, will it still work currently?
20151215 20:27:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes
20151215 20:28:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well exacpt the replay
20151215 20:28:07< celticminstrel> Well of course.
20151215 20:28:09< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: actually even the replay will work mostlikley
20151215 20:28:15< celticminstrel> Huh? How?
20151215 20:28:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: that means if you load teh game, make some turns and teh save the game
20151215 20:28:49< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: then you can replay those turns if you load the seconds savegame with load replay
20151215 20:29:06< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: if the first savefile had neogher [replay] nor [replay_start]
20151215 20:29:20< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: that is, at lest how it is intended to work on 1.13.1
20151215 20:29:21< celticminstrel> Oh, you mean replay of turns beyond the state saved in that edited savefile.
20151215 20:29:29< celticminstrel> That makes sense.
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20151215 21:21:14< irker570> wesnoth: Peter Elmers wesnoth:master fc5b3e5ed222 / src/actions/attack.cpp: refactor some replay validation out of perform_hit http://git.io/v0oei
20151215 21:21:14< irker570> wesnoth: Peter Elmers wesnoth:master 2f2ea4bedbb6 / changelog src/actions/attack.cpp: Fix bug 23108: expected damage for aborted attacks http://git.io/v0oeP
20151215 21:21:14< irker570> wesnoth: Peter Elmers wesnoth:master 7076df5ee6d1 / changelog: fix typo in changelog http://git.io/v0oeX
20151215 21:21:15< irker570> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master afd693d358ac / src/actions/attack.cpp: Merge branch 'bug23108' of https://github.com/pelmers/wesnoth into pelmers-bug23 http://git.io/v0oe1
20151215 21:22:47< irker570> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 1f10111a1e43 / changelog: Update changelog http://git.io/v0ovW
20151215 21:33:47< celticminstrel> That's not good...
20151215 21:34:11< celticminstrel> Did that alter the changelog for 1.13.0?
20151215 21:39:56-!- Necrosporus_ [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20151215 21:40:44< celticminstrel> Is it considered bad form to add someone else to the credits?
20151215 21:42:12-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20151215 21:45:48< celticminstrel> Because the author of that PR is not in the credits.
20151215 21:46:00< celticminstrel> Unless he had a different name or something.
20151215 21:46:35< celticminstrel> Which I doubt.
20151215 21:52:06-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F250A838D1341BE57A716AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20151215 21:52:23< shadowm> gfgtdf: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=ModificationWML&diff=56981&oldid=56980
20151215 21:53:20< shadowm> Also added it to the sidebar...
20151215 21:54:00< celticminstrel> I suddenly wonder if any other old PRs that were merged resulted in erroneous changes in older changelogs... though I just noticed that you actually fixed it in this case.
20151215 21:57:10< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i cannot see where i shodul have changed the 1.13.0 changelog
20151215 21:58:29< gfgtdf> shadowm: thx for adding it in the sidebar
20151215 21:58:31< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Any particular reason why you only included half of his original changelog note?
20151215 21:58:44< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Yeah, it looks like you replaced his changelog commit with one of your own.
20151215 21:58:45< gfgtdf> shadowm: y that text seemed odd to me but i didnt see that there were teh commas missing.
20151215 21:59:30< celticminstrel> shadowm: Should I add him to the credits or try to get him to add himself?
20151215 21:59:45< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i removed teh changelog changes when merging becasue it casues merign conlicts and it would be less work to reapply those changelos than to solve those ocnfics
20151215 21:59:59< celticminstrel> But you only reapplied half of it.
20151215 22:00:43< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i didnt seemsm important to me, i just got the imporssion that he noted the same thign twice in teh changelog
20151215 22:01:08< celticminstrel> Well, okay then.
20151215 22:03:26-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD119104008160.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20151215 22:04:24< shadowm> gfgtdf: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=LuaWML:Units&diff=56983&oldid=56978
20151215 22:04:33< shadowm> celticminstrel: Who?
20151215 22:04:54< celticminstrel> shadowm: The author of the PR gfgtdf just merged - Paul Elmers
20151215 22:05:26< shadowm> If they don't have another open PR atm just add them yourself.
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20151215 22:07:16< shadowm> Added wesnoth.effects to the index.
20151215 22:08:13< celticminstrel> ...sorry, Peter not Paul. Why did I say Paul?
20151215 22:09:33< irker570> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master a71685a082a3 / changelog data/core/about.cfg: Update credits http://git.io/v0oGy
20151215 22:10:19< celticminstrel> Thinking about adding something like wesnoth.register_event()...
20151215 22:10:33< celticminstrel> ...and probably unregister too...
20151215 22:10:52< celticminstrel> Though wesnoth.game_events.on_event kind of serves that role a bit...
20151215 22:11:23< celticminstrel> But if I understand correctly, it always runs before any registered events.
20151215 22:12:13< celticminstrel> So it doesn't really respect order if you mix Lua and ActionWML event handling...
20151215 22:13:37< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: what hould wesnoth.register_event do?
20151215 22:13:48< celticminstrel> The exact same thing as the [event] WML tag.
20151215 22:14:01< celticminstrel> Except using a Lua function instead of a sequence of ActionWML.
20151215 22:14:22< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well lua on_event happening before wml events is also a welldefined order
20151215 22:14:33< celticminstrel> True, true.
20151215 22:14:47< celticminstrel> Maybe there's a way to improve the on_event interface as well.
20151215 22:14:57< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm you can mostlikley easily write that in lua by caling wesnoth.aml_actions.evel
20151215 22:15:08< celticminstrel> It also seems to be kind of poorly documented.
20151215 22:15:13< celticminstrel> By calling what?
20151215 22:15:21< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: why? i think its quiet easy to understand
20151215 22:15:37< gfgtdf> by using wesnoth_wml_actions to call [event] actionwml by lua
20151215 22:16:17< celticminstrel> Right, but the drawback of that is that the [event] tag can't use a Lua function in place of the ActionWML (though you can sort of hack it in with a [lua] tag).
20151215 22:16:38< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y, i thought of the lua tag
20151215 22:16:42< celticminstrel> Maybe it should be in helper instead then, since it's something that can already be done.
20151215 22:17:10< celticminstrel> But would still be useful, I think.
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20151215 22:34:10< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Something like this? http://pastebin.com/AX4qR6pB
20151215 22:35:35< celticminstrel> Though it could use improvement (currently it clutters up the helper namespace with functions that may only be ca;;ed once).
20151215 22:35:54< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y something liek that
20151215 22:36:11< celticminstrel> ^called
20151215 22:36:20< celticminstrel> Do you think it's worth adding to mainline?
20151215 22:36:56< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: idk i always used on_event in my addons and didnt have problems with it.
20151215 22:37:38< celticminstrel> Well, there's only a problem if you mix Lua and WML events. If you do everything in Lua, on_event should be just fine.
20151215 22:37:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: but those were usually 'camaign engine' event and not 'story' events.
20151215 22:37:55< celticminstrel> As far as I can tell.
20151215 22:37:58< celticminstrel> Hmm?
20151215 22:38:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: whats exatly the problsm if you mix it ?
20151215 22:38:18< celticminstrel> Well, it may not be a problem for everyone, of course.
20151215 22:38:37< celticminstrel> on_event is always called first before the WML events, according to the wiki.
20151215 22:39:50< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i think we shoudl maybe implement some order=<float> attribute for [event] to insert the event at a specific place instead of appending them at the end
20151215 22:40:00< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: (unrelated to on_event that is)
20151215 22:40:15-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20151215 22:40:21< celticminstrel> While the thought isn't bad, I think order=<float> would be of very little use.
20151215 22:40:53< celticminstrel> Especially if there are a lot of events added later in the scenario, it won't always be clear which position you want it to be placed at.
20151215 22:41:11< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: what woudl you di different?
20151215 22:41:13< celticminstrel> Although, if you turn the event queue into a priority queue, maybe...
20151215 22:41:31< gfgtdf> do*
20151215 22:41:33< celticminstrel> Provided that events of equal priority go in declaration order...
20151215 22:41:44< celticminstrel> That might work... maybe that's even what you were thinking of.
20151215 22:44:41< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: do we have some restructions n event names? liekonly beeing in [a-zA-Z0-9_ \-] or soemthing?
20151215 22:44:45< gfgtdf> restructions
20151215 22:44:49< gfgtdf> restrictions
20151215 22:44:57< celticminstrel> Something like that.
20151215 22:45:06< celticminstrel> Oh yeah, I forgot to include the event name in that snippet.
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20151215 22:57:02< gfgtdf> shadowm: Near the end of the release notes below you will find a list of the most important bugs known at the time of release. Some items are due to be fixed in version 1.13.2
20151215 22:57:10< gfgtdf> shadowm: shoudln this be 1.13.3 ?
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20151215 23:02:28< shadowm> Yes, fixed.
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20151215 23:49:49< shadowm> celticminstrel: Yes, stderr.txt is Windows-only.
20151215 23:51:20-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20151215 23:51:34< shadowm> ancestral: Would you be opposed to me posting the announcement before the OS X package is ready?
20151215 23:51:46< ancestral> Go ahead, that’s fine
20151215 23:52:02< ancestral> I’m finishing up the install. I got an error (yay!) so here I am
20151215 23:52:30 * shadowm ponders whether to wait for vultraz to hand him the GitHub and Twitter assets or just go ahead.
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20151215 23:56:01< shadowm> I see the NSIS installer assets weren't updated.
20151215 23:56:37< shadowm> Oh man I think I'll need to download like 200 MiB over a slow connection if I want to prepare this stuff myself.
20151215 23:56:53< shadowm> I'll just wait for vultraz.
--- Log closed Wed Dec 16 00:00:21 2015