--- Log opened Sat Jan 30 00:00:04 2016
--- Day changed Sat Jan 30 2016
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20160130 00:03:39< zookeeper> koz, no, there are not
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20160130 15:57:07< vn971> hm, funny fact. If you kill your own Leader with [harm_unit], wesnoth will tell you that you won the game (Victory!).
20160130 15:58:25< vn971> that is probably a bug. Wesnoth probably analyzed the game, saw I killed all Leaders expect one in my turn and considered me to be the winner.
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20160130 16:00:48< vn971> if I kill my Leader in my turn, the game enters an "infinite" loop giving AI players their turns.
20160130 16:01:26< vn971> * sorry, if there are 2 computer players and 1 human, killing the human leader in the first turn forces wesnoth into the loop.
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20160130 16:04:18< vn971> sorry again, correction on the first bug. I was playing 1human-vs-1human, so when I killed my own leader, wesnoth might immediately considered the second human player to be the winner and show his message. A bit wierd anyway.
20160130 16:15:15< DeFender1031> How does any of that not make sense? If your leader dies, you lose, no?
20160130 16:17:12< zookeeper> well, it's confusing if/when the victory dialog just says that "you" win (which IIRC it does even in multiplayer) instead of which player wins.
20160130 16:17:53< zookeeper> there's some quirks like that which don't make much sense in hotseat
20160130 16:29:03< DeFender1031> ah
20160130 16:31:03< DeFender1031> I guess it's the game telling you that if you're so bad that you managed to lose on your own turn, that you've wrapped back around to being the winner (of losing the worst) :P
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20160130 17:41:33< vn971> zookeeper, DeFender1031, the important bug I see is that killing a leader with [harm_unit] will make the game fall into loop.
20160130 17:41:56< zookeeper> yeah that sounds bad
20160130 17:42:20< vn971> making you watch AIs fighting each other until the game is over (not giving you your turn or showing any kind of "game lost" pop-up).
20160130 17:43:08< DeFender1031> ah, i didn't realize that watching computer players beat each other up after you lose wasn't default (i've never actually played multiplayer)
20160130 17:46:55< vn971> if that would be of any use, here's the WML script: http://pastie.org/10702034
20160130 17:49:46< Ravana_> I see no reason why game should end just because there is no human player alive, as long as remaining ai are from different teams
20160130 17:50:14< vn971> Ravana_: well, it does if you lose your leader normally.
20160130 17:50:29< vn971> Ravana_: so it's inconsistency either way.
20160130 17:50:38< vn971> (as I see it.)
20160130 17:50:41< Ravana_> it does, because it is marked as loss condition, or because there is event that makes you lose?
20160130 17:51:26< vn971> hm. Honestly, I don't know. It's just a default mode if you start a game vs one AI.
20160130 17:51:49< vn971> Ravana_: I guess it's a loss condition (on your Leader).
20160130 17:52:29< Ravana_> I guess you can try see what happens when you add fire_event=yes there
20160130 17:52:45< vn971> Ravana_: the user interface does not mention loss conditions though. Only victory condition. That's a default message every one can see if you start a new game vs 1 AI.
20160130 17:53:12< Ravana_> how you see AI fight each other when there is only one AI?
20160130 17:54:22< vn971> Ravana_: sorry, you're right. 2 AIs.
20160130 17:55:17< vn971> Ravana_: the loop starts with "fire_event=yes", too.
20160130 17:56:14< vn971> Ravana_: desktop notifications show "vasya has taken control -> ai2 has taken control -> ai3 has taken control -> ..."
20160130 17:56:36< vn971> Ravana_: dunno if the last info is interesting.
20160130 17:57:49< Ravana_> I guess something might be done, though personally I believe it should be left as part of scenario design
20160130 18:03:54< Ravana_> I didn't want to have to deal with killing units so I didn't add that option to my menu, only changes without killing http://pastebin.com/p2t88zwP
20160130 18:11:15< vn971> Ravana_: so you think different ways of killing Leaders _should_ yield different results?
20160130 18:11:55< Ravana_> certainly, as long as it is done by code
20160130 18:13:23< zookeeper> surely that's a bug. if you lose when your leader dies, then you should... you know, lose when your leader dies.
20160130 18:14:01< zookeeper> i'm a bit surprised that's possible though, i'd have thought the victory checks would be performed every turn start or something
20160130 18:14:29< vn971> Ravana_: I'm not sure we will not have _some_ kind of add-on that does some additional damages. This damage could kill a Leader, but you will not lose the game. I now tested it, you can move the rest of your units in subsequent turns normally.
20160130 18:15:46< vn971> zookeeper: yup, surprising a bit. I tried to test just that with keeping a helper unit alive (see prev message).
20160130 18:16:09< Ravana_> I keep several such specials, and would consider this situation something that I should fix in event code, rather than problem with game
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20160130 18:22:18< vn971> Ravana_: wait, suppose I have an addon that does some strike-back damage. Suppose it's done with [harm_unit]. Do you really mean my addon should test whether the unit I harm is a Leader, and do some special tricks in that case?
20160130 18:24:01< Ravana_> actually, I get your point, I won't argue against changing it more
20160130 18:24:40< vn971> Ravana_: ok.
20160130 18:25:05< vn971> Ravana_: BTW, no chance at pumping the ubuntu version yet? (As a security update.)
20160130 18:25:24< Ravana_> I am not core developer
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20160130 18:27:15< vn971> Ravana_: ah, right, it was Rhonda. I confused the names.
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20160130 18:29:47< zookeeper> vn971, if you wouldn't mind submitting a bug report about it at http://bugs.wesnoth.org then that'd be great
20160130 18:30:05< vn971> > zookeeper: ... the victory checks would be performed every turn start or something
20160130 18:30:05< vn971> I'd vote for checking harmed unit immediately. Otherwise - who knows - I may be able to defeat the enemy Leader in the same turn
20160130 18:30:45< zookeeper> yeah.
20160130 18:31:52< vn971> // zookeeper: then it would be a matter which rule will apply first (at the start of next turn).
20160130 18:32:18< vn971> zookeeper: cool, I'll submit the bug.:)
20160130 18:33:09< zookeeper> great, thanks
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20160130 18:55:47< vn971> zookeeper: dammit!! I wrote a full bug report, pressed "submit" only to find out that "You're not logged in". What's worse, going backwards in browser history does not bring back the text I wrote.
20160130 18:56:43< vn971> zookeeper: F5 button still asks whether I want to re-submit.. And is a POST request. OK, I'll try to register and press F5 after that.
20160130 18:57:35< zookeeper> uh. yeah, that sucks.
20160130 18:58:21< zookeeper> i've developed a habit of copypasting anything i try to post in an unfamiliar place, because something similar has happened to me too many times.
20160130 19:00:07< vn971> zookeeper: yeah.. I generally have a similar habit, but my habit doesn't seem so good though. I thought gna.org is very simpl-ish and would not do anything smarter than just POST with fields. (Like phpbb and others.) Apparently it is trickier.
20160130 19:00:19< Ravana_> I use addon that autosaves forms
20160130 19:08:48< vn971> zookeeper: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?24361
20160130 19:09:41< zookeeper> looks good to me
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20160130 19:18:24< vn971> zookeeper: ooooouch. Damn, I was so wrong.. Actually, it doesn't matter how you lose your Leader. The game won't end and will continue.
20160130 19:18:57< vn971> zookeeper: wesnoth didn't say "losing Leader = defeat", but I assumed it so (wrongly).
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20160130 19:50:20< zookeeper> vn971, uh, so is one of the AI sides on the same team as you?
20160130 19:51:02< zookeeper> are you really on 1.12.0?
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20160130 20:43:10< nuti-naguti> hi
20160130 20:53:07< APic> Hi.
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20160130 22:57:17< vn971> * was offline. Dunno how to delete the gna.org ticket I created.
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20160130 23:29:03< vn971> hah, why do I get this thread: http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22878  when I look up how to quickly start a game with an add-on..
20160130 23:29:46< vn971> I'm flooding right now, anyway. Feel free to ignore the last link.
20160130 23:30:15< shadowm> ... flooding? As in a flood of water?
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20160130 23:41:45< vn971> shadowm ah, sorry, that must be a russian-only phrase. Means sending some messages (for example lots of messages) with no particular meaning/goal.
20160130 23:42:42< nuti-naguti> do you russian?
20160130 23:43:28< vn971> nuti-naguti: as a matter of fact, I am. Although I'm not very proud with many recent things Russians do and in fact wanna migrate.
20160130 23:43:57< vn971> * many things Russians recently did
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20160130 23:45:05< Ravana_> that phrase is common in english too
20160130 23:45:27< shadowm> vn971: You mean _you_ are flooding _us_ with that kind of message? Because in that case it's not a Russian thing, it's just that AFAICT you only sent three messages in the span of 90 minutes to a channel that hasn't seen any other activity at all. :p 
20160130 23:45:39< shadowm> (And which rarely sees activity in general.)
20160130 23:45:44< nuti-naguti> he means flood attack
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20160130 23:47:04< nuti-naguti> it's common in webmaster vocabulary
20160130 23:47:20< shadowm> "Flood attack" is more commonly associated with denial-of-service schemes.
20160130 23:48:19< vn971> shadowm I meant that the message is not very serious and has similarities to the (very specific) term I used.
20160130 23:48:56< shadowm> If _this_ conversation was everyone's idea of a flood attack, then system admins would have a much easier life, I tell you that.
20160130 23:49:08< vn971> shadowm ;)
20160130 23:49:10< nuti-naguti> :)
20160130 23:49:29< zookeeper> i'd demonstrate what actual annoying flooding looks like, but i don't want to be that guy
20160130 23:49:32< vn971> anyway, I do have a question about creating a quick game with my addon (for testing it).
20160130 23:49:43< vn971> anybody knows how to do that quickly?
20160130 23:50:00< zookeeper> how to do... what, exactly?
20160130 23:50:07< vn971> there is `wesnoth --multiplayer`, but it will start addon-less game as far as I see.
20160130 23:50:31< vn971> and I can launch a new game manually. But it takes lots of clicks:
20160130 23:50:48< Ravana_> there is usually no need to completely close wesnoth before new test
20160130 23:51:20< vn971> re-launch wesnoth, click "multiplayer", click "offline game", [adjust settings], click start, click start again, choose 1 human player and 1 AI, click start again, click once for "game goals" pop-up to disappear. And finally be able to test the addon on a fresh game.
20160130 23:51:22< Ravana_> that is only needed when changing some core configuration that addons can't touch
20160130 23:51:46< shadowm> You need --scenario <scenario id> and --era <era id> if you are going to use --multiplayer, I think (I'm just parroting --help, I've never used this).
20160130 23:51:49< vn971> Ravana_: ah, right, good consideration. Though it still leaves lots of clicks..
20160130 23:51:50< nuti-naguti> which addon do you made, mate?
20160130 23:52:03< nuti-naguti> did*
20160130 23:52:26< nuti-naguti> probably i can test it later too)
20160130 23:52:38< vn971> nuti-naguti: currently just experimenting for fun, TBH. But I'm considering whether I can make "No Randomness Mode" nicer.
20160130 23:52:42< Ravana_> adjust settings part should also be possible to just include in scenario file
20160130 23:52:49< nuti-naguti> umm
20160130 23:53:10< nuti-naguti> yet another truerandom addon)
20160130 23:53:39< vn971> nuti-naguti: deterministic actually. Just how "No Randomness Mod" works.
20160130 23:54:09< vn971> it has wrong battle predictions though, I wondered if I could somehow defeat that.
20160130 23:54:39< nuti-naguti> mm but random it's just a part of a game
20160130 23:55:21< nuti-naguti> in the long term
20160130 23:55:33< vn971> nuti-naguti: actually, I understood that while playing the "No Randomness". Just takes some fun away and makes the game more serious.
20160130 23:55:54< nuti-naguti> like poker for example
20160130 23:56:08< nuti-naguti> i understand, don't worry
20160130 23:56:10< vn971> nuti-naguti: then again, I like to play with rules more than to play the game itself sometimes.
20160130 23:56:10< nuti-naguti> ))
20160130 23:56:59< nuti-naguti> it always happened with games lik this
20160130 23:57:17< nuti-naguti> i mean that most active developers ussualy
20160130 23:57:55< vn971> this behavior can be considered broken, but I even managed to implement some crazy rules for Heroes3 with those totally unusable ERM scripts.
20160130 23:58:21< nuti-naguti> mm
20160130 23:58:40< nuti-naguti> heroes 3.5?
20160130 23:59:19< vn971> nuti-naguti: yep, those. 3.68 or something like that (part of 3.5 unofficial series)
20160130 23:59:26< nuti-naguti> homm is not very moddable as i know
--- Log closed Sun Jan 31 00:00:31 2016