--- Log opened Thu Feb 11 00:00:28 2016
--- Day changed Thu Feb 11 2016
20160211 00:00:28< zookeeper> shadowm, ok, so...
20160211 00:01:07< zookeeper> shadowm, so when i saw "world map" i immediately thought you meant a map of the whole world
20160211 00:01:44< shadowm> I meant the Great Continent map.
20160211 00:02:27< shadowm> The portion that covers the kingdom of Wesnoth and its general neighborhood etc. The stock map that's used for the titlescreen.
20160211 00:02:49< zookeeper> so, yes, kinda: https://github.com/wesnoth/resources/blob/master/image-localization/maps/Heir_To_The_Throne/localization.xcf
20160211 00:02:54< zookeeper> but do you need it to have text labels too?
20160211 00:03:36< shadowm> See what I mean about the repository being a disorganized mess?
20160211 00:04:22< shadowm> I'm not sure I care about the text labels atm. I wanted the map for an experiment.
20160211 00:04:35< shadowm> So... only 1280x960, I see.
20160211 00:04:53< zookeeper> well... i don't, actually. the only confusing thing about it is the "cartography-tools" dir because one naturally assumes it has something relating to current cartography.
20160211 00:05:03< zookeeper> and yes, only 1280x960
20160211 00:05:08< shadowm> There's an /images dir.
20160211 00:05:22< shadowm> Every other subdir of the root has images in it except for the one or two that have sound files.
20160211 00:05:40< shadowm> The title screen/stock map is in a HttT-centric directory for some reason.
20160211 00:06:10< shadowm> The old maps are still lying around, the locations are different to the new map for completely orthogonal reasons.
20160211 00:06:45< shadowm> Underscores and hyphens are mixed around haphazardly as well.
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20160211 00:07:12< shadowm> There are files named "*logo*" in like four different directories.
20160211 00:07:33< shadowm> There are two different sets of SVGs for the current logo.
20160211 00:07:37< zookeeper> yeah, i guess it's a bit disorganized... :>
20160211 00:07:58< zookeeper> but at least all the stuff _is_ there somewhere. that's a lot already :P
20160211 00:08:01< shadowm> Unused garbage is lumped together with stuff we actually use.
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20160211 00:08:32< zookeeper> anyway, if you grab the flat version from the xcf, it won't have shadow and the folds displacement and all that, but if it's just for an experiment then i guess you don't mind.
20160211 00:08:48< zookeeper> but if you need one with labels and all the fancy stuff, i can pretty easily make one for you
20160211 00:10:12< shadowm> I'll get back to you if I need anything else then.
20160211 00:12:40< zookeeper> sure
20160211 00:13:25 * zookeeper hurries to catch sleep
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20160211 00:52:34< shadowm> vultraz: 18:45:29 <shadowm> vultraz: Re https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/34838f3819a6099e715315298aa91ff1a439680c consider lexical_cast_default instead.
20160211 00:53:31< shadowm> Also, consider using the empty() method instead of comparing with an empty string.
20160211 00:53:49< shadowm> Greatly consider that.
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20160211 03:13:05< ancestral> Are there any bugs with color cursors now that we’re SDL2?
20160211 03:16:41< shadowm> Last time I checked they are still disabled by default, and Wesnoth seemed to interpet this now as "enabled whenever I feel like".
20160211 03:16:58< shadowm> No idea if it's been fixed since though.
20160211 03:37:55< ancestral> Looks good on my end in SDL2
20160211 03:39:01< shadowm> Just checked again, it still does the same thing.
20160211 03:39:34< shadowm> Color cursors disabled in Preferences causes them to be used in the title screen before entering a game.
20160211 03:40:47< shadowm> When running with a clean configuration set, not when manually disabling them.
20160211 03:44:21< shadowm> vultraz: What happened to the tooltips and descriptions for the Compress saved games option?
20160211 03:44:59< shadowm> s. and ./.
20160211 03:49:45< shadowm> In fact, now none of the Advanced Preferences options that had descriptions have them displayed anywhere in the UI.
20160211 03:49:55< shadowm> This is bad.
20160211 03:50:28< shadowm> Can we get them displayed at the bottom of expanded entries?
20160211 03:51:33< shadowm> Expandable entries are also begging for a margin at the bottom when expanded.
20160211 03:52:10< shadowm> Hm, the list is lacking in margins in general.
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20160211 03:53:43< shadowm> This screenshot alone should hopefully illustrate the issue: http://i.imgur.com/DP7fNR6.png
20160211 03:54:15< ancestral> What do those white arrows mean?
20160211 03:54:22< celticminstrel> Ooh, looks nice.
20160211 03:54:23< ancestral> Go the right?
20160211 03:54:27< ancestral> *Go to
20160211 03:54:34< celticminstrel> Apart from those issues.
20160211 03:54:37< shadowm> Also, ugh at those blurry left/right borders on combo boxes.
20160211 03:54:56< celticminstrel> I guess the arrow means you click to select the value, or something. I dunno.
20160211 03:55:02< shadowm> And ugh at blurry edges in general.
20160211 03:55:16< ancestral> I’m [still] confused by the presence of both a check box and yes/no value
20160211 03:55:32< shadowm> ancestral, celticminstrel: The arrow entries bring up subdialogs.
20160211 03:55:36< ancestral> Why do I need yes/no to tell me if I’ve checked the box?
20160211 03:55:40< celticminstrel> Yeah, that seems a little weird too.
20160211 03:56:03< celticminstrel> Customize orb colours needs to be implemented.
20160211 03:56:15< shadowm> Yeah I was talking about this last night and proposed a couple of alternatives, it's a bit redundant.
20160211 03:56:26< ancestral> shadowm: I am curious… how does one come up with white arrow meaning “subdialog?”
20160211 03:56:34< shadowm> (The design, I mean, not the fact that we're talking about this again.)
20160211 03:56:39< ancestral> (Not trying to criticize, just trying to learn more)
20160211 03:56:41< shadowm> ancestral: Who the hell knows.
20160211 03:56:48< celticminstrel> Ask vultraz, I guess.
20160211 03:56:56< shadowm> I didn't choose the icons, in case you are wondering. ;)
20160211 03:57:06< ancestral> I didn’t think so ;-)
20160211 03:57:16< ancestral> Well, perhaps I make a suggestion
20160211 03:57:33< ancestral> maybe two
20160211 03:57:37< shadowm> But in most UIs, a right triangular arrow of some sort generally indicates an action that brings up something.
20160211 03:57:43< ancestral> A button that says “more” or “advanced” or… something
20160211 03:57:47< ancestral> on that line
20160211 03:57:48< shadowm> s/right//
20160211 03:58:06< shadowm> For example, a submenu (in a menu), a dropdown menu (on a button or toolbar item), etc.
20160211 03:58:12< ancestral> And/or the other option (which I totally understand many people probably don’t realize)…
20160211 03:58:20< ancestral> An ellipsis ‘…’
20160211 03:58:37< ancestral> In application menus, an ellipsis means you are going to get a dialog with more options
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20160211 03:59:00< shadowm> That's a good point. We used to have the ellipsis idiom among our tentative UI guidelines.
20160211 03:59:19< shadowm> But then uh I kind of forgot about it and no-one made an effort to enforce that either.
20160211 03:59:45< celticminstrel> An ellipsis would be good, yeah.
20160211 03:59:55< ancestral> All that being said, I totally get this dialog is a beast, and I applaud the work you have done so far
20160211 04:00:31< ancestral> I’m sure it will be an improvement
20160211 04:01:43< shadowm> vultraz did all the actual coding. I just laid out the foundations (the tstacked_widget's fix that allowed for implementing tabbed dialogs), made a very rough draft of the first three pages, and provided some guidelines to follow with regards to Advanced.
20160211 04:02:29< shadowm> And I believe gfgtdf made the combobox widget.
20160211 04:03:07< celticminstrel> Yeah, he did.
20160211 04:09:48< ancestral> Hmm
20160211 04:10:02< ancestral> The Display Dwarf
20160211 04:10:11< ancestral> I guess he’s looking?
20160211 04:10:58< shadowm> He's checking himself on the mirror maybe?
20160211 04:11:19< ancestral> I almost want to see someone in a costume
20160211 04:11:22< ancestral> or building a wooden frame
20160211 04:11:32< shadowm> And the Advanced dwarf is wielding an electric guitar because why the hell not right.
20160211 04:11:53< ancestral> Wow
20160211 04:11:58< ancestral> Missed that one
20160211 04:12:22< ancestral> The Display Dwarf looks like he’s shaving
20160211 04:13:30< ancestral> I wonder if the “general” double entendre translates well
20160211 04:13:36< ancestral> I’m going to guess“no” 
20160211 04:13:48< shadowm> Probably not to many languages.
20160211 04:14:21< shadowm> It does translate well to Spanish because the translations of both "General" (as in general stuff) and "General" (the rank) are also "General".
20160211 04:24:04< celticminstrel> I guess it'd probably translate to most Romance languages.
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20160211 05:54:35< irker287> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master 56ea3a7d248e / data/core/encyclopedia/geography.cfg: Help: Fix typo in Help -> Encyclopedia -> Geography -> Great Ocean. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/56ea3a7d248e585a195a3064a7c234305026354c
20160211 05:54:35< irker287> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e186a18846ff / data/core/encyclopedia/geography.cfg: Merge pull request #594 from sigurdfdragon/Help_Typo_Fix_Great_Ocean https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e186a18846ffeeba5df2b82281ae2f01adbb0750
20160211 05:58:08< vultraz> shadowm: the blurry edges of the combobox are because they uses images not generated lines. 
20160211 05:58:26< vultraz> I've been pondering whether that should be the case
20160211 05:58:54< shadowm> Yes, they definitely should use procedural rectangles and look like crap forever.
20160211 05:59:17< shadowm> NO.. We are not building a Windows 10 component.
20160211 05:59:38< shadowm> You were supposedly going to ask LordBob for help with this.
20160211 05:59:42< vultraz> The text boxes do.
20160211 05:59:50< vultraz> But again, this is part of a larger problem
20160211 05:59:52< shadowm> Combo boxes are buttons.
20160211 05:59:56< shadowm> Text boxes are not buttons.
20160211 06:01:07< shadowm> Also, are you ever going to backport spelling fixes to 1.12?
20160211 06:01:28< vultraz> Blah
20160211 06:02:11< shadowm> I even explained pofix to you in at least one occasion.
20160211 06:05:57< vultraz> Could you do it?
20160211 06:06:04< vultraz> I'm kinda busy with other stuff (not just wesnoth)
20160211 06:06:20< shadowm> Only if you get me the list of commits that need to be backported.
20160211 06:06:58< shadowm> And in that case you should be perfectly able to do it yourself at a later time as long as you do it before the next coming of Jesus Christ.
20160211 06:07:57< shadowm> Or the next stable release, whichever happens first.
20160211 06:08:38< shadowm> (Probably not the latter, since as far as I know there've been absolutely no bug-fixes on 1.12 since 1.12.5, therefore no reason to make a release right now.)
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20160211 07:23:28< shadowm> I guess this is the last Wesmere screenshot I posted? http://i.imgur.com/o3dGOCR.png
20160211 07:24:21< shadowm> Have another one: http://i.imgur.com/w7Vwy15.png
20160211 07:26:24< vultraz> niiiiiiiiice O_O
20160211 07:29:28< shadowm> I probably should start using Git for this, because I need to rearrange things significantly if I want to accomodate the trailer the way I want it.
20160211 07:32:58< shadowm> One thing I can't seem to decide on my own right now is whether we should keep a News section on the front page, or have a separate News page, or use the News forum exclusively for this, including a link to it somewhere visible.
20160211 07:33:56< shadowm> The third seems like a deplorably solution from a UX/SEO perspective but makes everything instantly easier for the release team.
20160211 07:34:37< shadowm> It's also a tremendously problematic solution from a technical standpoint since the front page ought to be available even in the event that the forums/SQL server go kaput.
20160211 07:35:51< shadowm> The second and first solutions are about the same from the aforementioned technical standpoint because either the release team has to manually edit crap every time, or (preferably) I'll finally write a script to generate the news section periodically by scraping the forums database.
20160211 07:36:49< shadowm> UX/SEO-wise the first seems more attractive than the second, but some would argue that there's little point in having the News in the front page because regular users (the people who actually care) rarely check the front page.
20160211 07:37:11< shadowm> BUT it could also be argued that prospective users may also want to get a sense of how active the project is before hitting Download.
20160211 07:37:59< shadowm> OTOH having the news in the front page has the potential to make the page seem needlessly cluttered, and it also kind of doesn't work with the proposed single-column layout.
20160211 07:38:46< shadowm> Etcetera. See why I'm not terribly enthusiastic about this project?
20160211 07:39:58< vultraz> I don't like the way every section except download ignores the whitespace on the right
20160211 07:39:58< shadowm> I probably deserve this for sketching the thing on paper and mysteriously forgetting to account for any of the aforementioned possible News section placements.
20160211 07:40:30< shadowm> ... Yes. That's what I meant with "I need to rearrange things significantly if [...]".
20160211 07:41:34< vultraz> I imaging you want the trailer right at the top in the middle?
20160211 07:42:27< vultraz> imagine
20160211 07:42:51< shadowm> No, not right at the top.
20160211 07:43:12< vultraz> where, then
20160211 07:43:19< shadowm> LET ME FINISH TYPING.
20160211 07:43:50< shadowm> It should be where the screenshots "strip" (believe that's what it's called in the code even though it's a grid right now) right now, except centered on the full page width rather than pushed to the left by the download button.
20160211 07:44:09< vultraz> ah
20160211 07:44:11< vultraz> yes, I agree
20160211 07:44:36< shadowm> Yes, the download button is what's pushing everything to the left, and that's because it was originally going to have more options arranged in a column.
20160211 07:45:12< vultraz> I am aware
20160211 07:45:15< shadowm> Then I scraped that plan but since I've worked unversioned this whole time, I've not dared to rearrange things fearing that I might accidentally typo 8 months of work away.
20160211 07:45:52< shadowm> But I'm pushing this to a repository in a few minutes so I can go crazy with the layout again without risking losses.
20160211 07:46:00< vultraz> Do send me the link
20160211 07:46:10< shadowm> I can send you the link but you'll get a 403.
20160211 07:46:36< vultraz> not github?
20160211 07:46:41< shadowm> Nope.
20160211 07:46:55< shadowm> And even if you could see it, you wouldn't be able to do anything with it because the source is Sass, not pure CSS.
20160211 07:47:05< shadowm> (Same as Iris.)
20160211 07:47:39< shadowm> (Except mysteriously less legible.)
20160211 07:47:47< vultraz> And?
20160211 07:48:09< shadowm> Question too vague.
20160211 07:48:23< vultraz> " you wouldn't be able to do anything with it"
20160211 07:48:29< shadowm> Oh, you mean you want me to upload the site itself.
20160211 07:49:11< shadowm> That probably won't happen because again it's Sass and I've not worked out the deployment strategy yet.
20160211 07:50:13< vultraz> so only you can work on it
20160211 07:50:43< shadowm> Too many cooks spoil the broth.
20160211 07:51:06< shadowm> And since the code is a colossal mess right now because it's full of discarded experiments and alternatives to keep in mind for later.
20160211 07:51:56< vultraz> well, it should at least be a repo somewhere that we can access in the event you get hit by a bus
20160211 07:52:21< shadowm> No, not really.
20160211 07:52:42< shadowm> You see, this is about as personal a project to me as my campaigns.
20160211 07:52:56< shadowm> If I get hit by a bus it ought to die with me, not get butchered by someone else.
20160211 07:53:31< shadowm> At least until I decide to officially transfer ownership of the repository to the Battle for Wesnoth Project, which won't happen until it's finished and ready.
20160211 07:53:38< vultraz> :|
20160211 07:53:44< vultraz> but that's not the greater good
20160211 07:54:03< shadowm> Do you ask artists to release their WIP .psds too?
20160211 07:55:13< shadowm> Trust me, there's not much use in having the WIP code since there are a lot of details and non-details pending that either only exist in my head or on my sketchbook.
20160211 07:56:34< shadowm> For example, I haven't even started properly work on the inner pages (read: MediaWiki) style beyond any shared rules.
20160211 07:57:17< shadowm> Mainly because it involves tedious snooping around in code that's beyond my control (read: MediaWiki).
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20160211 09:29:33< Aginor> I think it's worthwhile having the news on the front page, it (usually) gives an indication of how abandoned a project is
20160211 09:30:36< vultraz> hey Aginor :D
20160211 09:31:26< Aginor> hi vultraz 
20160211 09:31:45< vultraz> long time no see
20160211 09:32:06< Aginor> it's not been that long
20160211 09:32:13< Aginor> I've just had a rather full packed week
20160211 09:32:29< vultraz> ah
20160211 09:32:31< vultraz> same here
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20160211 10:07:07< vultraz> Aginor: you getting any lack of rain down there?
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20160211 12:41:15< vultraz> shadowm: is this what you had in mind? https://www.dropbox.com/s/eunpak4p3iidbm4/advprefs_w_descrip.PNG?dl=0
20160211 13:01:45< vultraz> shadowm: also, proposal to replace any 'Delete' button with an icon of a trash can
20160211 13:02:43< zookeeper> ah, i have one more trick i can pull. instead of ~CS'ing the water variants, i'll just draw a static translucent overlay (with transitions) on top of them. it won't look as good, but it cuts down the number of surfaces required immensely.
20160211 13:04:24< zookeeper> dunno why i didn't consider that earlier.
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20160211 13:06:50< vultraz> zookeeper: what is this about new surfaces?
20160211 13:08:54< zookeeper> vultraz, the massive memory hogging of the water is because a new surface is created for every frame of every tile of every tropical/gray variant of every transition direction
20160211 13:09:10< vultraz> but...why O_O
20160211 13:09:53< zookeeper> because that's how IPF's work. when you do a ~CS, the shifting doesn't just magically happen at render time, it happens by creating a new copy of the original image and then shifting its pixels
20160211 13:10:58< zookeeper> if using foo.png takes up X memory, then foo.png~CS(-1,-1,-1) takes up 2 * X (the original + the new shifted copy)
20160211 13:26:27< vultraz> it should happen at render time
20160211 13:26:36< vultraz> anything else is bad design :/
20160211 13:27:39< zookeeper> sure
20160211 13:30:43< vultraz> we need opengl
20160211 13:53:17< zookeeper> looks like it's not very straightforward to do the overlay transitions right because of the complicated transparency interactions, but that just means i have to spend proper effort on it.
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20160211 14:14:26< irker603> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 20350715eaa6 / data/advanced_preferences.cfg: Don't display Orb Color option for now https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/20350715eaa67085118c3b41dcf794d1a50b6f8a
20160211 14:18:36< vultraz> ok, I don't know who did this, but zomming is now EXTREMELY fast o_O
20160211 14:18:54< vultraz> zooming*
20160211 14:19:06< vultraz> maybe it's just sdl2
20160211 14:19:09< vultraz> but wow
20160211 14:21:01< vultraz> interesting...
20160211 14:22:24< vultraz> the editor also experiences this, but after a few seconds delay when zooming to a new level
20160211 14:22:30< vultraz> after that, it's fast
20160211 14:22:36< vultraz> probably a cache thing
20160211 14:26:59< vultraz> reported findings here http://gna.org/bugs/?17997
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20160211 15:04:35< gfgtdf> vultraz: maybe you want to file an upsteead bugreport for the pango issue ?
20160211 15:05:13< vultraz> gfgtdf: the character size thing?
20160211 15:06:47< gfgtdf> vultraz: no general 'pango fails to parse comma seperated list on windows non-linux' thing.
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20160211 15:09:37< vultraz> gfgtdf: i guess i could
20160211 15:09:53< vultraz> gfgtdf: im not sure what the optimal workaround with be tho
20160211 15:14:28< vultraz> gfgtdf: maybe loop through the list and try to load each font?
20160211 15:14:45< vultraz> and use the first sucessful one?
20160211 15:14:51< gfgtdf> vultraz: hmm wait i'll try to file an upsteas bugrreport
20160211 15:19:57< gfgtdf> vultraz: do you kmow which pango version ancestral usees '?
20160211 15:20:03< vultraz> no
20160211 15:20:31< vultraz> im using 1.28.3 and i think he's using a more recent one tho
20160211 15:23:37< gfgtdf> vultraz: i actualyl think the best workargound is to put a space in each empty line.
20160211 15:23:54< vultraz> gfgtdf: no, that's not a good workaround
20160211 15:24:15< vultraz> gfgtdf: plus there's the character width thing
20160211 15:25:30< gfgtdf> vultraz: which cahracter with thing ?
20160211 15:26:21< vultraz> gfgtdf: what i said in the bug report about newlines. there's a 3003 width difference when using DVS and the full list
20160211 15:26:55< gfgtdf> vultraz: hmm yes, you ypou know which is the 'correct' result ?
20160211 15:27:00< gfgtdf> do you*
20160211 15:27:14< vultraz> gfgtdf: I assume the one gotten when using DVS
20160211 15:37:35< gfgtdf> shadowm: you know what that 'junicode' font is that is specified in fonts.cfg ? i cannot finsa  'junicode' file in fonts/ directory
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20160211 17:05:27< irker603> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:master 7815744c61d7 / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj src/SConscript: vcproj: Add preference_dialog https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7815744c61d7852012ea45081a02d49244b4a6de
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20160211 18:27:09< vultraz> ancestral: what version of pango do you use?
20160211 18:27:21< ancestral> Hmm
20160211 18:27:49< ancestral> I think the latest stable one sex
20160211 18:27:51< ancestral> *sec
20160211 18:28:18< ancestral> 1.8.0 for the modules and
20160211 18:29:03< ancestral> 1.0.0.2101 for libpango and libpangocairo
20160211 18:29:27< ancestral> I can’t remember how to build/download the module files
20160211 18:29:57< ancestral> (I’ll be back in 1½ hours)
20160211 18:30:08< ancestral> I’ll check irclogs later
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20160211 18:47:00< vultraz> ancestral: well the game info dialog says i have 1.28.3. i don't know how that corresponds 
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20160211 20:59:53< ancestral> vultraz: You know, I never checked what version of Pango I have from within the game info dialog
20160211 21:00:32< ancestral> I have to rebuild
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20160211 21:03:19< shadowm> gfgtdf: It's a font called Junicode.
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20160211 21:05:06< shadowm> zookeeper, vultraz: Caching the results of IPF is not bad design.
20160211 21:05:24< shadowm> Remember Wesnoth uses software rendering, and always has, since 2003.
20160211 21:06:09< shadowm> Going over 5184 pixels of every unit frame every time an animation is played to apply some palette transformation on it isn't something you want to do all the time.
20160211 21:08:08-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160211 21:08:31< shadowm> If you are going to call that bad design then get out of here and don't come back until you can provide a patch to give us hardware-accelerated rendering on all platforms without regressions or incompatibilities.
20160211 21:08:59< shadowm> (That = using software rendering in an era when cross-platform support was way poorer.)
20160211 21:09:24< shadowm> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eunpak4p3iidbm4/advprefs_w_descrip.PNG?dl=0 <-- Yes, that's what I said.
20160211 21:09:39-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160211 21:10:05< shadowm> Replacing buttons with icon buttons only works as long as they are always paired with other buttons that can replaced likewise.
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20160211 21:10:30< shadowm> If you are going to have an icon button next to a text button assigned to the same element that usually means you ran out of icons.
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20160211 21:11:02< ancestral> vultraz: Pango build: 1.38.1; build 1.36.3
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20160211 21:11:38< shadowm> It's otherwise a good idea.
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20160211 21:20:00< gfgtdf> shadowm: but in fonts/ there is no such font
20160211 21:24:56< shadowm> That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. :p
20160211 21:25:59< shadowm> Looks like Espreon added it to the list to help with the runic Old English translation.
20160211 21:27:18< shadowm> So, with Cairo/Pango, any fonts we don't ship can still be used, at least on Linux (using fontconfig) and Windows (using the native font API).
20160211 21:27:48< shadowm> I'm not sure SDL_ttf/FreeType can do this, but it's irrelevant anyway since the codepoints in question aren't supported by SDL_ttf IIRC.
20160211 21:28:26< shadowm> Anyway the bottomline is that you shouldn't worry about it, and if you actually want to know _why_ we have a system alternative listed you'll have to ask Espreon.
20160211 21:34:08< gfgtdf> shadowm: hmm but then that code assumes that this font is present on all supported systems
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20160211 21:34:58< irker114> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0394fe0a34e7 / / (2 files in 2 dirs): tpreferences: display descriptions of advanced preferences if available https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0394fe0a34e771db3bed334010de0017966cf397
20160211 21:37:15< celticminstrel> Next step: Implement orb colour selection. :P
20160211 21:37:33< vultraz> blah :P
20160211 21:37:50< vultraz> widget groups will be needed
20160211 21:37:57< celticminstrel> For the orbs?
20160211 21:39:18< celticminstrel> Hmm, I guess that makes sense, yeah.
20160211 21:39:38< celticminstrel> Not radio-buttons, but maybe still toggle-buttons (unlabelled ones).
20160211 21:45:44< vultraz> plus again, I disapprove of the whole thing option anyway
20160211 21:48:34< vultraz> i might just never implement it
20160211 21:48:42< vultraz> well, the frontend, that is
20160211 21:50:57< celticminstrel> I think it's good to have.
20160211 21:51:08< vultraz> color blind option, yes
20160211 21:51:14< vultraz> but not to customize every orb color
20160211 21:51:26< vultraz> it's a HUGE OAB violation
20160211 21:51:33< celticminstrel> OAB?
20160211 21:51:43< vultraz> Options Are Bad
20160211 21:51:59< celticminstrel> Well, if you want to think that way, just remove the whole Advanced Preferences section.
20160211 21:52:10< vultraz> I have no idea why it was even implemented in the first place since a true color blind mode would extend to more than just the orbs 
20160211 21:52:40< celticminstrel> What else would it entail?
20160211 21:53:01< vultraz> tod tint and terrain color
20160211 21:53:16< celticminstrel> I'm not sure I agree on your OAB thing though.
20160211 21:53:19< shadowm> I'd be more concerned about team colors than anything else.
20160211 21:53:47< vultraz> well, yes
20160211 21:53:48< shadowm> Terrains tend to be pretty unique in aspects other than color palette.
20160211 21:53:48< vultraz> that too
20160211 21:53:54< celticminstrel> Team colours are probably less important than the ability to easily tell whether a unit is friend or foe.
20160211 21:54:01< celticminstrel> And that's what the orbs do.
20160211 21:54:10< vultraz> not really. i look at TC
20160211 21:54:13< vultraz> not orbs
20160211 21:54:16< celticminstrel> If you have multiple allies, it's less important to be able to tell them apart.
20160211 21:54:21< celticminstrel> You look at TC, sure.
20160211 21:54:29< celticminstrel> You're not everyone.
20160211 21:54:29< shadowm> The scenario's objectives may require you to spare or attack enemies in a specific order.
20160211 21:54:47< vultraz> TC is more obvious at a glance, is the point
20160211 21:54:53< celticminstrel> I disagree.
20160211 21:54:55< vultraz> so yes, TC would be covered by a color blind mode 
20160211 21:54:57< shadowm> Also, regarding OAB, not all options are bad.
20160211 21:55:02< vultraz> ^ this
20160211 21:55:09< shadowm> Otherwise we'd not have a need for a Preferences dialog.
20160211 21:55:12< celticminstrel> ^
20160211 21:55:27< shadowm> The options that are bad are those that introduce additional configurations that we need to support (in documentation, bug reports, etc.).
20160211 21:55:34< celticminstrel> I don't think TC is any more obvious than orbs.
20160211 21:55:40< vultraz> OAB refers to things like the Reverse Time Graphics settings
20160211 21:55:48< vultraz> (now removed)
20160211 21:55:50< shadowm> I already explained the "compulsive option clicker" phenomenon and its implications.
20160211 21:55:51< celticminstrel> Which I still don't really understand.
20160211 21:55:57< celticminstrel> What the point of it was, I mean.
20160211 21:56:08< shadowm> vultraz: No, that didn't really fall under OAB.
20160211 21:56:13< vultraz> celticminstrel: it literally flipped the TOD image horizontally
20160211 21:56:21< celticminstrel> I know what it did.
20160211 21:56:22< shadowm> No-one cares whether the sun in ToD pictures moves clockwise or counter-clockwise.
20160211 21:56:29< gfgtdf> vultraz: i'll try to move teh hotkey dialog to gui2
20160211 21:56:36< celticminstrel> I don't understand why some people seem to think it's necessary to have.
20160211 21:57:03< vultraz> celticminstrel: some people = eee ess arr
20160211 21:57:27< shadowm> ... NO.
20160211 21:57:32< shadowm> He was opposed to its existence.
20160211 21:57:39< celticminstrel> It's not like the sun rises in the west if you live in the southern hemisphere.
20160211 21:57:41< vultraz> wait really?
20160211 21:57:43< shadowm> http://shadowm.ai0867.net/files/the-reverse-time-graphics-talk.log
20160211 21:57:46< vultraz> then who was the guy who demanded its return
20160211 21:57:53< vultraz> i thought it was him
20160211 21:58:06< vultraz> ahhhh
20160211 21:58:08< vultraz> ok
20160211 21:58:09< vultraz> I got it backwards
20160211 21:58:50< vultraz> that conversation is so absurd 
20160211 21:59:10< vultraz> oh, the days when wesnoth devs had nothing better to argue about
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20160211 22:01:28< shadowm> Ah the days when we didn't have newbies arbitrarily deciding task priorities. :p
20160211 22:02:16< vultraz> Was that ever not the case?
20160211 22:02:27< shadowm> Yep.
20160211 22:02:44< shadowm> They could decide on their own tasks, but they certainly didn't get to boss senior developers around.
20160211 22:03:37< vultraz> But apparently we no longer have senior developers :)
20160211 22:04:35< celticminstrel> We don't?
20160211 22:05:19< vultraz> the position vanished somewhere around the turn of the decade
20160211 22:05:30< vultraz> or maybe later
20160211 22:05:34< vultraz> but it's technically gone
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20160211 22:10:07< vultraz> [9:08:17 AM] Sairins: I included it so that runes would be able to show up in GUI 1 and "GUI 0"
20160211 22:10:08< vultraz> [9:09:09 AM] Sairins: I believe the stuff handled by sdl_ttf was able to render them
20160211 22:10:10< vultraz> [9:09:38 AM] Sairins: A system alternative... what did he mean?
20160211 22:10:11< vultraz> shadowm: ^
20160211 22:19:56< vultraz> (that's espreon, fyi)
20160211 22:20:24< vultraz> gfgtdf: 
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20160211 22:41:21< gfgtdf> vultraz: ?
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20160211 22:49:33< aeth> My favorite part about compiling Wesnoth is that it seems to be the only thing that uses 100% of all 8 threads for a while. Although I'm sure there are other ways to do this, maybe e.g. compiling KDE or something.
20160211 22:50:09< vultraz> gfgtdf: you were asking about the font
20160211 22:50:12< aeth> I'm going to submit some SDL2 pull requests as soon as I look up how to fork something on github without having to re-checkout or re-compile it.
20160211 22:52:08< aeth> Shouldn't the new Desert Mountains be Mountains,Sand instead of Mountains because Khalifate units don't do well on mountains?
20160211 22:53:13< celticminstrel> Is there some reason why the Khalifate should do well on desert mountains?
20160211 22:54:04< aeth> Well, the mountains aren't replacing dry mountains afaik, so they're a totally new terrain not used anywhere. So there's no balance reason for either yet.
20160211 22:54:44< aeth> Intuitively, though, if they do well on Desert (Sand) and Dunes (Sand, Hills), then why would they do poorly on Desert Mountains (Mountains, no sand), though?
20160211 22:58:00< aeth> It hurts my map intuition because Dunes is both sand and hills, and is the desert equivalent of hills. Idk if it's just my intuition, though.
20160211 22:59:18< zookeeper> i just felt it was inintuitive that those kinds of mountains would be aliased to sand as well. because, like, they're not covered in sand the way snowy mountains are covered in snow.
20160211 23:03:41< aeth> Yeah but (1) hexes are possibly abstractions for much larger areas of land so I kind of assume there's sand there anyway and (2) "sand" doesn't really mean just sand imo, it means desert in general (as well as sandy beaches, I guess)
20160211 23:10:16< gfgtdf> vultraz: right
20160211 23:11:12< zookeeper> aeth, maybe. we have a plenty of time to change that still, if needs be.
20160211 23:11:51 * zookeeper is inclined to make kaleh and nym both the same unit type
20160211 23:12:19< zookeeper> (units with plenty of advancement choices, that is)
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20160211 23:18:56< aeth> How much time do we have to change things? Roughly. I have lots of little things that would probably be tiny pull requests on Github, but setting it up will probably take a whole day so I've been procrastinating.
20160211 23:19:12< aeth> Oh, also, now that we've moved to SDL2, does that mean shaders for things like lighting?
20160211 23:19:14< zookeeper> well, the rest of the development cycle, more or less.
20160211 23:19:37< zookeeper> however long that shall last this time around
20160211 23:19:41< aeth> It would be fun to play around with light sources in indoors/cave maps.
20160211 23:20:48< zookeeper> uh, how would that even work? in any case, no, something like that would still require a lot of work.
20160211 23:22:53< aeth> Two ways that could work. Very minor appearance changes, or a major reworking of e.g. how ToD (e.g. indoor/cave ToD) changes the appearance of things.
20160211 23:23:18< zookeeper> in any case, unless i'm completely mistaken, one of the most straightforward low-hanging fruits might be to do ToD lighting via shaders. you could just run the shader the whole main view surface, i'd imagine.
20160211 23:23:37< aeth> Right.
20160211 23:23:57< aeth> So you could make the ToD system a shader, and then get rid of the illuminated tile and replace it with a more complicated light source alteration thing.
20160211 23:24:15< aeth> And by you I mean me :-p
20160211 23:25:11< aeth> It would be really cool to see the wall torches and a few other light sources light up the cave a bit (though probably not enough to make a combat difference)
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20160211 23:26:29< shadowm> 20:19:14 <aeth> Oh, also, now that we've moved to SDL2, does that mean shaders for things like lighting?
20160211 23:26:33< shadowm> No.
20160211 23:26:39< shadowm> We're still using software rendering.
20160211 23:27:39< shadowm> We'll need some major architectural changes first if we want to actually use OpenGL and GLSL.
20160211 23:28:11< zookeeper> shadowm, one wouldn't need major architectural changes to do something like what i suggested though, right?
20160211 23:28:14< aeth> If we were to use shaders, the table here says the lowest common version available to everyone is 3.3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_%28computer_graphics%29#Implementations_of_rendering_APIs
20160211 23:28:26< aeth> Via Intel's mesa drivers.
20160211 23:28:57< aeth> Even when Intel catches up to 4.2, it probably wouldn't be worth using past 3.3 because my old graphics card only supported up to 3.3 and I'm sure there is hardware that plays Wesnoth even older than that.
20160211 23:29:05< shadowm> aeth: Well, yes, that's an answer to... whatever question wasn't asked.
20160211 23:29:33< shadowm> zookeeper: I'd dare say yes because we still need to set up a GL context.
20160211 23:29:40< aeth> You said we'd need major architectural changes for OpenGL, and I looked up the highest possible version we can go to (3.3)
20160211 23:29:52< aeth> Although with all the time it will take, maybe Vulkan will be out by then :-p
20160211 23:29:59< shadowm> And once we're using a GL context we absolutely must use OpenGL instead of software rendering.
20160211 23:30:15< aeth> Instead of using OpenGL and taking several months, we can switch to Vulkan and take several years ;-)
20160211 23:31:55< zookeeper> shadowm, sure, i just thought that that's not terribly complicated. and that software rendering can somewhat easily be turned into hardware rendering by continuing to do individual drawing of stuff in software and only hardware-rendering the whole output buffer once per frame.
20160211 23:31:59< zookeeper> but i don't know much about that.
20160211 23:32:21< shadowm> I've been told before that that is actually more expensive in the end.
20160211 23:32:41< aeth> I don't know anything about porting something that already exists to OpenGL. It's probably complicated.
20160211 23:32:46< zookeeper> yeah, maybe it is
20160211 23:38:25< zookeeper> the kaleh/nym advancement thing is a bit problematic. i don't want to mix gaining levels and gaining AMLAs which don't increase level. but that means you'd only get to make two advancement choices before you've already hit lvl3. it sounds low compared to the current mess, but maybe it would be enough since you'd still have 6 possible endpoints if at every level you have 2 choices.
20160211 23:40:06< zookeeper> err. s/6/4
20160211 23:42:00< zookeeper> i guess you could still have a few extra AMLAs become available at lvl3
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 12 00:00:02 2016