--- Log opened Mon Feb 01 00:00:35 2016
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20160201 05:50:51-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | http://wesnoth.org | Latest stable version: 1.12.5 | Latest development version: 1.13.2 | Check the upness of Wesnoth servers: http://status.wesnoth.org | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: https://bpaste.net
20160201 05:50:51-!- Topic set by shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] [Wed Dec 16 04:33:40 2015]
20160201 05:50:51[Users #wesnoth]
20160201 05:50:51[ _iwc          ] [ Elsi_      ] [ Lirion     ] [ scythetwirler  ] 
20160201 05:50:51[ aeonchild     ] [ Falcon-    ] [ lobby      ] [ shadowm        ] 
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20160201 05:50:51[ Crendgrim     ] [ iwaim      ] [ Nean       ] [ vincent_c      ] 
20160201 05:50:51[ DDR           ] [ janebot_   ] [ oldlaptop  ] [ vn971          ] 
20160201 05:50:51[ DeFender1031  ] [ Jetrel     ] [ Pepe_      ] [ vultraz        ] 
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20160201 05:50:51[ elias         ] [ jurkan     ] [ Ravana_    ] [ Yaiyan         ] 
20160201 05:50:51[ EliDupree_    ] [ knotwork_  ] [ Rhonda     ] 
20160201 05:50:51-!- Irssi: #wesnoth: Total of 59 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 59 normal]
20160201 05:50:52-!- Home page for #wesnoth: http://www.wesnoth.org
20160201 05:50:56-!- Channel #wesnoth created Sun Nov 26 06:42:43 2006
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20160201 08:36:41< Rhonda> vn971: ping? :)
20160201 08:42:11< Rhonda> Anyone else on a Ubuntu trusty system and able to help with a package test?
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20160201 10:28:54< vn971> Rhonda: I could, I think. (pong.)
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20160201 10:29:56< Rhonda> :)
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20160201 10:42:01< vn971> Rhonda: what should/can I do?
20160201 10:42:32< Rhonda> Install the package from that PPA, run it and see if it works, then write that to the bugreport.
20160201 10:43:55< vn971> Rhonda: ough. I generally do not use PPA-s. They're strange and binary. But well, I'll try to do as an exception.
20160201 10:44:10< Rhonda> The whole archive is binary. :)
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20160201 10:48:10< vn971> Rhonda: which PPA to use? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothBinariesLinux
20160201 10:48:35< vn971> Rhonda: I see a repo under your name, but it's wesnoth-devel
20160201 10:50:30< Rhonda> vn971: https://launchpad.net/~rhonda/+archive/ubuntu/wesnoth-backport-tests
20160201 10:52:52< Rhonda> oh
20160201 10:53:04< Rhonda> maybe you can also just try/use the ppa of vincent_c :)
20160201 10:54:18 * vn971 trying "wesnoth-backport-tests" now
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20160201 10:55:20< vn971> BTW, I don't quite understand why debian-sid forces all dependencies of a project to be the newest. Otherwise I could just take wesnoth-1.12 from sid and be over with.
20160201 10:58:47< Rhonda> It doesn't "force", so to say.
20160201 10:59:46< Rhonda> Dependencies are a rather tricky thing.  There is this thing called ABI/API level, and if that changes in a library stuff compiled against it needs at least that version.  It's put as precaution to avoid segfaults.
20160201 11:01:37< vn971> Rhonda: well yes, but I saw examples where the official wiki of a project says it needs version X, whereas in sid I see X+++
20160201 11:01:54< vn971> Rhonda: last time I saw that in hedgewars to be pricise.
20160201 11:01:58< vn971> precise
20160201 11:03:17< Rhonda> Yes, that's because X changed its API, so if the package gets compiled against it later the save call is to say X++ because that was the last version that changed the API.
20160201 11:03:45< Rhonda> But it would compile against X.  That's just not available in the archive at the time when it was compiled.
20160201 11:07:09< vn971> Rhonda: wait, the most safe thing is to compile agains the same version as the project officially wants, isn't it? So a question then, why not write dependency requirements as "X+" ?
20160201 11:08:00< Rhonda> The *build* dependencies are written as that indeed.
20160201 11:08:23< Rhonda> But that's different from what the *binary* is compiled against in the end with respect to availability.
20160201 11:25:08< vn971> Rhonda: well, and why not specify runtime dependencies as they are in the official project, "X+" ?
20160201 11:25:42< vn971> Rhonda: I'm not saying they're wrong. I just can't understand that.
20160201 11:40:34< vn971> Rhonda: OK, I tried to use it, it works AFAICT.
20160201 11:40:56< vn971> Rhonda: You mean the launchpad bug tracker, right?
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20160201 11:54:00< Rhonda> Because the runtime dependency doesn't work that way in binaries because of API/ABI.  I can understand that you don't understand it because it's fairly complicated, but it's the way it has to work. :)
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20160201 18:03:54< vn971> hm, I get a "Lua error" on one of the built-in maps.
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20160201 18:04:12< vn971> 20160201 21:03:40 warning unit: Unknown attribute 'no_recruit' discarded.
20160201 18:04:12< vn971> 20160201 21:03:41 error scripting/lua: [string "..."]:24: attempt to index local 'actual' (a nil value)
20160201 18:04:12< vn971> stack traceback:
20160201 18:04:12< vn971> 	[string "..."]:24: in function 'leader_matches'
20160201 18:04:12< vn971> 	[string "..."]:27: in function 'detect_faction'
20160201 18:04:13< vn971> 	[string "..."]:34: in function 'bytecode'
20160201 18:04:13< vn971> 	/usr/share/games/wesnoth/1.12/data/lua/wml-tags.lua:277: in function 'cmd'
20160201 18:04:14< vn971> 	/usr/share/games/wesnoth/1.12/data/lua/wml-tags.lua:320: in function </usr/share/games/wesnoth/1.12/data/lua/wml-tags.lua:284>
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20160201 18:04:43< vn971> I get it if I start the map "Hornshark Island" with 1 player only (the other is Empty).
20160201 18:10:47 * zookeeper looks
20160201 18:12:02< zookeeper> yeah, the scenario code doesn't take that possibility into account
20160201 18:14:25< zookeeper> i'm not sure how much sense starting it with one player only can make, but i guess it's worth fixing anyway
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20160201 18:29:01< zookeeper> fixed
20160201 18:29:11< zookeeper> i won't bother porting that to 1.12 though...
20160201 18:47:39< vn971> zookeeper: yes, makes sense exactly as you say. Thanks.
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20160201 19:23:25< vn971> BTW, should the manual be updated? It says ZOC applies to all units, whereas I see only "lvl 1 +" are giving a ZOC. (Maybe it is a strange map I'm testing in?)
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20160201 19:24:25< celticminstrel> Level 0 units have never had a ZoC as far as I know.
20160201 19:24:38< celticminstrel> (At least in anything mainline.)
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20160201 19:27:33< zookeeper> yeah, looks like lvl0 units are not mentioned there, but they should be
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20160201 20:11:55< vn971> zookeeper: if anyone's interested, I can PR.
20160201 20:13:21< zookeeper> eh, i guess i can make the addition now anyway, so just say if you have suggestions for wording
20160201 20:14:48< zookeeper> i was thinking of...
20160201 20:14:58< zookeeper> -Each unit generates a zone of control in the hexes immediately surrounding it,
20160201 20:14:58< zookeeper> +Excepting level 0 units, each unit generates a zone of control in the hexes immediately surrounding it,
20160201 20:15:55< zookeeper> "Excepting" is a bit awkward so i guess "Except for"
20160201 20:17:08< vn971> zookeeper: maybe "Each unit above level 0 generates ..." ?
20160201 20:23:00< vn971> dunno.
20160201 20:24:54< zookeeper> or "Each unit — except for level 0 units — generates ..."
20160201 20:35:24< vn971> zookeeper: yeah, sounds good.
20160201 20:35:56< vn971> Each unit (with the exception of level 0 units) generates ...
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20160201 20:36:45< vn971> I don't know the common wesnoth text style. (I'm also not native to English.)
20160201 20:39:03< zookeeper> nothing really sticks out as clearly superior to me, so i guess i'll default to my own suggestion :P
20160201 20:42:14< zookeeper> done
20160201 20:52:19< vn971> zookeeper: yeah, cool.
20160201 20:53:25< zookeeper> found anything else? not that two per day isn't good
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20160201 21:18:03< vn971> zookeeper: nothing important. BTW, can you link the commit? (Or just tell the hash.)
20160201 21:19:32< Ravana_> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/59ba795de4f6796dd52e5768f2a135b33ef84b63
20160201 21:24:28< vn971> zookeeper: I'd like more links to be in the text. For example, for the following use-case:
20160201 21:24:28< vn971> * you are a beginner in wesnoth
20160201 21:24:28< vn971> * you see an enemy unit. Suppose it's undead or elvish.
20160201 21:24:28< vn971> * you click on it and you want to see all other units your enemy can buy
20160201 21:24:28< vn971> * struggling, you click the link to "Undead" race (or Elves)
20160201 21:24:28< vn971> * you still can't see units buyable by this race.
20160201 21:24:49< vn971> proposed fix: link "Undead" faction from "Undead" race. Same for elves.
20160201 21:27:34< vn971> that's not a real rule of course. A careful description should be made such as "units of this race generally belong to the <a>***</a> faction"
20160201 21:29:16< vn971> That is a "wish" though, not a bug.
20160201 21:29:37< vn971> Ravana_: thanks.
20160201 21:35:41< zookeeper> hrhm
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20160201 21:38:20< Ravana_> off-turn view of currently used eras factions recruit lists would be nice, but quite straightforward to add as modification too
20160201 21:38:45< zookeeper> vn971, the undead race page already lists all undead units, is the problem with that it lists the higher-level units too (which usually aren't recruitable)?
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20160201 21:41:38< zookeeper> of course, the race pages could link to the multiplayer faction pages... if such pages existed
20160201 21:41:49< vn971> zookeeper: the problem is that it's not simple enough. Firstly, the race page lists _all_ units of this race. Including upgrades and "hero" super-units. While I, as a beginner, would be most intersted to see basic units only. Secondly, I won't see units of the same faction but different race.
20160201 21:42:56< vn971> zookeeper: so, starting with "Troll whelp" I would like to be able to navigate to "Troll race", then "Northeners faction".
20160201 21:43:24< vn971> and finally see "Grunt" and "Darewolf rider"(or how it is called)
20160201 21:43:31< zookeeper> sure, but the problem is that that only makes sense in multiplayer
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20160201 21:44:01< vn971> zookeeper: in what cases would it not make sence? (I may not know all the options.)
20160201 21:44:02< zookeeper> it'd be mostly confusing in single-player, at least when the enemy recruits differ noticeably from the corresponding faction
20160201 21:44:11< vn971> zookeeper: sounds pretty reasonable in Campaign, too.
20160201 21:44:28< Ravana_> zookeeper: could you check https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43781 , I suspect that the answer Dugi provided is not serious. Though I don't know enough about mainline to say for sure
20160201 21:44:40< zookeeper> vn971, well if you're only up against trolls, and the help pages give you the impression that it also means orcs and goblins and wolf riders and nagas?
20160201 21:44:55< vn971> zookeeper: I only played single-player in the last few months.. (Multi-player was a long time ago and I forgot everything.)
20160201 21:45:46< zookeeper> like, there are no factions in campaigns, factions are only a multiplayer thing. in campaigns the enemy sides recruit whatever the scenario designer wanted to, sometimes they're very unusual combinations, or just a few units of a given race.
20160201 21:46:31< vn971> zookeeper: but single-player is the same as multi-player in that regard, no?
20160201 21:46:48< vn971> zookeeper: meaning if I play a single game agains some AIs.
20160201 21:47:57< Ravana_> multiplayer means that scenario is in [multiplayer], not that there have to be multiple people
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20160201 21:48:53< zookeeper> yeah, you can play multiplayer scenarios/eras/etc alone, it's still called multiplayer
20160201 21:49:03< Ravana_> though multiplayer games may just as well mess with recruit lists and everything else
20160201 21:49:31< zookeeper> single-player == campaigns
20160201 21:49:50< zookeeper> (even if there is one or two multiplayer campaigns too, but in this context they count as single-player too)
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20160201 21:50:25< vn971> "it'd be mostly confusing in single-player, at least when" -- well, yes.. That's why I propose to have a careful text like "generally belong to"
20160201 21:51:05< zookeeper> so, anyway, in campaigns enemies tend to recruit everything they can, so when you've seen the enemy units you've likely seen all they can recruit already. in multiplayer it could arguably be useful for newbies to be able to view what each faction can recruit.
20160201 21:51:47< zookeeper> so a help page for each era and faction would be a good idea, and those pages should then be linked to from the race pages too
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20160201 21:52:57< Ravana_> there is factions page for core units already
20160201 21:53:27< vn971> zookeeper: yes, exactly like Ravana_ says!
20160201 21:53:32< Ravana_> though multiplayer could be larger section
20160201 21:53:38< vn971> zookeeper: that's why I propose this in the first place. It's easy to do.
20160201 21:54:50< zookeeper> Ravana_, oh, duh, i scanned the help page menu several times but missed the "Eras" entry every time
20160201 21:55:12< vn971> zookeeper: just link from the already-existing "Undead race" to "Undead faction" (and for some other races, too).
20160201 21:55:19< Ravana_> oh, and when talking about easy text fixes, then :alias is missing from Commands>General commands
20160201 21:55:53< Ravana_> though actually it can't go to that section, since it is only available with : and not with /
20160201 21:58:05< zookeeper> hmmhmm. i wonder if the links from race to faction pages should be an automatically-generated list. like, check all eras and factions and add links to the ones which contain the unit.
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20160201 21:59:27< Ravana_> that would be useful, though then the (missing) faction pages should be generated too
20160201 22:00:02< vn971> zookeeper: that's a good question. The problem I see: recruit lists may be per-player and even dynamically-changing.
20160201 22:00:04< Ravana_> even if just as Faction #23, followed by list of units
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20160201 22:01:05< Ravana_> I believe that changed recruit lists should be hidden by default
20160201 22:04:36< vn971> also, the current "Factions" list is static. So if we are about to change something, we must change the whole scope (race->faction link generation, faction list generation).
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 02 00:00:36 2016