--- Log opened Sat Feb 06 00:00:35 2016
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20160206 22:06:53< iMakepeace> So I'm writing this campaign; I test every scenario up to number 10 and it works perfectly; I write number 11 and try to test it; and all of a sudden the program isn't recognising any of the scenarios.  Am baffled.
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20160206 22:10:16< zookeeper> that's because of the error(s) you undoubtedly get
20160206 22:10:46< iMakepeace> I don't know what sort of errors they are, though.  I have three campaigns online and this has never happened before.
20160206 22:11:14< zookeeper> you don't get any errors, or you don't know what they mean?
20160206 22:11:37< iMakepeace> I don't know what sort of error is causing this piece of weirdness.  There's no error message.
20160206 22:12:47< zookeeper> right
20160206 22:13:07< iMakepeace> Also, I've just replayed one of my other campaigns and that still works fine.
20160206 22:13:24< zookeeper> if you're on windows, there should be a file called stderr.txt in the install directory
20160206 22:13:36< iMakepeace> I'm not.  I run Ubuntu.
20160206 22:13:58< iMakepeace> Um, sorry.  That probably complicates things.
20160206 22:14:09< zookeeper> oh okay. then i guess the log should be somewhere in your userdata: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/EditingWesnoth#The_user_data_directory
20160206 22:14:19< zookeeper> maybe
20160206 22:14:25< iMakepeace> Thanks!  I'll have a look at that.
20160206 22:14:28< zookeeper> i don't know/recall how that stuff works on *nix
20160206 22:14:55< zookeeper> anyway, long story short: if having your .cfg for your scenario 11 causes such a problem, then that means you have some kind of syntax error in that file
20160206 22:15:01< iMakepeace> Well, at least it's something to try.  I've been pretty well pulling what's left of my hair out.
20160206 22:15:21< zookeeper> it's odd if you don't get any kind of error messages though, but at least there should be something in stderr
20160206 22:15:28< iMakepeace> H'mm.  So why does it not recognise any of the previous scenarios any more?
20160206 22:15:39< zookeeper> or maybe there's no long file and you just have to run the game from the command line and see the output
20160206 22:15:43< zookeeper> s/long/log
20160206 22:16:51< iMakepeace> That's possible.  I mean, I just about live in that folder; I do a lot of Wesnoth coding.
20160206 22:16:54< zookeeper> because when it's reading all your scenario files, it blows up on whatever problem that one file has, and isn't smart enough to just discard the broken parts so it just blows up everything and gives up
20160206 22:17:09< iMakepeace> Ahhh.  Now that is helpful.  Thank you!
20160206 22:18:45< zookeeper> anyway, yeah, that stderr thing is windows-only so you'll have to just look at the console output i guess
20160206 22:19:15< iMakepeace> Thanks.  At least I know where to look for the problem now.  It's been driving me up the wall.
20160206 22:19:46< iMakepeace> Usually, when there's a syntax error in one scenario, it tells me.  It even tells me which line it is.  But not this time.
20160206 22:21:02< zookeeper> yeah i don't really have any educated guesses as to what sort of problem it might be, but you should see something helpful in the output.
20160206 22:21:34< iMakepeace> It's good to be able to talk to someone about it who at least knows what I'm on about.  I appreciate it - thank you.
20160206 22:24:01< zookeeper> you can usually get some help here if you're stuck on something (although it might take a while for someone to respond)
20160206 22:24:24< zookeeper> and if all else fails you can usually use brute force to find where the problem stems from: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14859
20160206 22:24:59< iMakepeace> Brute force?  I like it.  The dwarf technique.  If it misbehaves, bash it with an axe.
20160206 22:26:44< iMakepeace> Yes, that's sound advice.  Probably not needed in this case, because it all worked fine for several scenarios; I test as I go, which helps.
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20160206 22:49:08< DeFender1031> Hey zookeeper, i've been playing UtBS, and it has this interesting mechanic whereby despite already being at the max level already, when kaleh or the dust devil advance, a dialog comes up asking in what way you want them to improve. Seeing that made me wonder why it's not like that with all max-level units in the entire game. The little benefit you get for advancing ordinary "purples" (as i think of them) ends up being very 
20160206 22:49:09< DeFender1031> much not equal to advancing "blues". If instead of (or in addition to) a little more health, they were also able to increase some other trait by one-point-per-advancement, that might make experience gained by purples a little less of a waste than it currently is. (Though obviously, it'd be a huge undertaking to add those kind of advancement options for every unit in the entire game.) I mean, imagine if say, units with 
20160206 22:49:11< DeFender1031> leadership had the choice of adding a level (thus increasing their leadership ratios) or adding one damage to their melee attack, that would be a much more interesting game than just "okay, all my guys are at purple, i have nothing left to look forward to", don't you think?
20160206 22:52:59< zookeeper> DeFender1031, basically it's because if the units could actually increase their damage or leadership bonus or other attributes like that, it'd make it much more appealing to go for a small number of super units
20160206 22:53:22< DeFender1031> and that's a... bad thing?
20160206 22:54:45< zookeeper> well, yes
20160206 22:54:53< DeFender1031> why's that?
20160206 22:56:47< zookeeper> the game (or, well, most campaigns anyway) are really designed more for a wider variety of units and for the player to have to accept some losses, and the more time and XP the player invests into single units, the more unfair it'll feel when you actually perma-lose them, and the harder it'll be to resist saveloading
20160206 22:57:22< zookeeper> like, it's fine if people want to play like that, but i don't think that's something that the game should encourage in the form of special bonuses for max-level units
20160206 22:57:38< zookeeper> because that sends the signal that that's what you're supposed to do, instead of leveling up more low-level units
20160206 22:58:00< DeFender1031> eh, people feel that way anyway. Besides, I figure the increase in experience needed to keep super-advancing your units that way would make that unfeasible anyway... Not to mention that those kinds of advancements are STILL not equivalent to actually advancing blues.
20160206 22:58:55< zookeeper> originally, you didn't even get the +3 max HP, all the XP was just wasted :P
20160206 22:59:15< DeFender1031> so i've read.
20160206 22:59:52< zookeeper> now, i don't think it'd break anything if you could choose like +1 melee damage once, or something like that, but i also think there's just not enough good possibilities like that available
20160206 23:02:29< zookeeper> you can't really have options which offer radical improvements (like increasing MP), because then you start losing differentiation between unit types. you shouldn't be able to make your heavy infantry as fast as your royal guards, etc.
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20160206 23:03:28< DeFender1031> Really? I feel like there's a lot of potential here... i would think (depending on the unit) the things that would make sense would be like +1 speed, +1 damage for one attack, add various traits (fearless, leadership, whatever), add one level (for units with leadership or some other trait where level matters), or how about increase a healer or lightcaster's range by one, so that instead of having to be adjacent, they can be 
20160206 23:03:29< DeFender1031> a space away, stuff like that
20160206 23:04:02< DeFender1031> i hear the concern, but again, i feel like if the amount of experience necessary for a super-charge increased drastically enough each time, it would make it unfeasible
20160206 23:04:39< DeFender1031> also, some of the improvements could have a limit on how many times they could be done per unit.
20160206 23:05:15< DeFender1031> but yeah, i wouldn't offer +1 movement to slow units... that's be for things like scouts or riders.
20160206 23:06:45< Ravana_> I believe there are modifications for this already
20160206 23:07:07< Ravana_> Augu Modifications maybe
20160206 23:07:08< DeFender1031> indeed, i also wouldn't allow leadership units to advance more than one or two levels past max... you don't want to have your level 1 elvish fighter suddenly dealing 20 damage per blow, that'd be far too overpowered.
20160206 23:07:19< zookeeper> range extension of any kind is pretty much out of the question, it'd be a complete departure from the usual rules. adding traits would be awkward, leadership level a bit less awkward but very powerful...
20160206 23:08:22< DeFender1031> look, it'd definitely change some of the game dynamics, but I do feel like a balance could be found which would allow this to work without overpowering everything
20160206 23:09:50< DeFender1031> (also, i want to make it clear that i'm not expecting, nor even trying to convince anyone to make this happen. At this point I just think it's an interesting discussion).)
20160206 23:09:50< zookeeper> sure, maybe it could work. i'm just saying i don't think anyone's really interested in pursuing it.
20160206 23:10:19< zookeeper> that said, it's certainly something that an add-on could do (and even add to all units globally)
20160206 23:10:24< DeFender1031> right. like i said, it'd be a lot of work.
20160206 23:10:34< DeFender1031> hmmm...
20160206 23:10:44< zookeeper> i'm just still happy that AMLA gives you a fullheal :p
20160206 23:10:56< zookeeper> because once, it didn't
20160206 23:11:10< DeFender1031> AMLA? Advancing Max Level... A-something?
20160206 23:11:27< zookeeper> after max level advancement
20160206 23:11:34< DeFender1031> gotcha
20160206 23:11:44< Ravana_> but advancing max level again would also fit
20160206 23:11:54< zookeeper> yeah
20160206 23:12:01< DeFender1031> figured it was the veteran way of saying "leveling a purple guy". :P
20160206 23:12:19< zookeeper> it was awkward, because everyone else was able to heal by leveling up, but your max-level units could never get an instant fullheal during a scenario
20160206 23:12:20< DeFender1031> interesting, i didn't know that.
20160206 23:12:31< DeFender1031> yeah, that's frustrating
20160206 23:12:57< Ravana_> AMLA doesn't need to give heal though, just most of them do
20160206 23:13:18< Ravana_> (up to 99 times)
20160206 23:13:34< DeFender1031> speaking of which, at some point, i advanced a full-health kaleh, and for some reason, all of the options left him with 7 less than full health. For one of those, (the one I ended up actually choosing) it left him with 3 less than he had already had
20160206 23:14:04< DeFender1031> Ravana_, if someone manages to AMLA the same unit more than 99 times, something is very very wrong.
20160206 23:14:25< Ravana_> indeed, saw it happen when through items one unit has max xp 1
20160206 23:15:04< DeFender1031> what do you mean?
20160206 23:15:05< zookeeper> kaleh's AMLAs are a bit of a mess
20160206 23:15:13< zookeeper> i'll definitely change them once the new units go in
20160206 23:16:26< Ravana_> royal rumble has up to 8 items that give max xp *0.5, and games start with 30% modifier, so when teaming up its really easy to get low max xp
20160206 23:16:32< DeFender1031> zookeeper, probably another reason why it would be hard for someone to pursue specializing the AMLAs for all units... if it's that difficult to get just one of them right in a very specialized campaign, I'd imagine it would not be simple to get it right for everyone everywhere.
20160206 23:18:00< zookeeper> that's more like because kaleh's AMLAs work in a very convoluted way
20160206 23:18:08< zookeeper> for... some reason
20160206 23:18:28< DeFender1031> Ravana_, so basically, you can have a ML tear through wave after wave of low-hp units and hit 99?
20160206 23:18:40< Ravana_> ML?
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20160206 23:21:38< DeFender1031> zookeeper, hmm... I wish I had the time and energy to devote to joining this project. I love the game and I love (well implemented) specialized programming languages, and would love to learn WML and help out... But I also have a very demanding job... Sigh. Real life. :/
20160206 23:22:04< DeFender1031> Ravana_, "Max Level", the same "ML" as in "AMLA" :P
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 07 00:00:53 2016