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20160222 17:14:12< DeFender1031> is there a way to place an image on the map in such a way that it A: extends past the edges of the hex if necessary and B: appears BEHIND units when they are standing on that hex? [item] seems to have halo= and image= which do drastically different things in several unrelated areas with no way to accomplish a mix of those options. Among other differences, it seems that halo does A but not B, and image does B but not A. Am I 
20160222 17:14:13< DeFender1031> doing this wrong?
20160222 17:16:31< zookeeper> the only way to do that is either to split the image into several and use [item] image=, or to use scenario-level [terrain_graphics] (which might or might not be workable in your case)
20160222 17:17:19< zookeeper> look at the ANIMATED_* macros in core/macros/deprecated-utils.cfg for an example of the latter
20160222 17:18:36< zookeeper> and yes, it's super annoying that [item] image= is limited to the hex size
20160222 17:18:37< DeFender1031> thanks
20160222 17:19:14< DeFender1031> i think i'm just going to go with splitting the image. easy enough to do in photoshop with the helpful terrain/mask.png
20160222 17:19:31< DeFender1031> (i had actually already started splitting the image before you answered)
20160222 17:20:57< zookeeper> i think someone might have even written some lua hack to automatically split an image like that, using the ~CROP IPF
20160222 17:21:04< zookeeper> not that i'd know where exactly to look
20160222 17:27:44< DeFender1031> eh, it's fine. I already had to create a custom image because [item] doesn't seem to have any pixel-positioning attributes.
20160222 17:30:43< zookeeper> that's something you could actually do with [terrain_graphics] :P
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20160222 17:40:58< DeFender1031> perhaps... but terrain_graphics looks kind of complicated... i suppose i could try it out.
20160222 17:44:02< zookeeper> nah, it isn't. i can paste you what you need for the multi-hex thing
20160222 17:46:29< DeFender1031> i'd appreciate that, thanks
20160222 17:47:13< DeFender1031> i've been trying to avoid asking about stuff here as much as possible, because i don't want to be annoying.
20160222 17:47:37< DeFender1031> though that may mean that i'm doing lots of things in a very complicated manner.
20160222 17:51:41< DeFender1031> Then again, in the span of about a week i've taught myself enough to make a pretty complicated cutscene scenario, including how to do some decent pixel-editing, WML, the preprocessor, events, animations, custom units... maybe i'm not SUCH a lost cause :P
20160222 17:52:16< zookeeper> ok, just give me a few minutes...
20160222 17:54:50< DeFender1031> sure, take your time.
20160222 17:55:53< zookeeper> the image won't go beyond the surrounding 6 hexes, does it?
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20160222 17:58:22< zookeeper> http://pastebin.com/NSzAJ8Fz
20160222 17:59:06< zookeeper> it ended up more awkward than i originally thought, as it actually needs two [terrain_graphics] to properly center a multihex image like that onto fixed coordinates
20160222 17:59:13< zookeeper> 16,7 in this case
20160222 18:00:24< zookeeper> any parts of the image which go outside the hexmap represented by map= are clipped off.
20160222 18:01:29< DeFender1031> not what i'm currently working with, no.
20160222 18:01:45< DeFender1031> hmm
20160222 18:02:29< zookeeper> ask if something doesn't make sense
20160222 18:03:29< DeFender1031> might take me a bit, at the moment the whole thing doesn't make sense, so i'll have to take some time to cross reference what you did here with the documentation for each thing. Once I do that, if it still doesn't make sense, i'll ask.
20160222 18:03:32< DeFender1031> and thanks.
20160222 18:04:36< zookeeper> basically the first tag sets a flag on the hex you specify, the second rule then applies the dragon image onto any hexes which have that flag (+ their surroundings)
20160222 18:05:53< zookeeper> the only reason there's two tags and not one is because you need the map= to be able to make the image span multiple hexes, but you cannot combine that with hard-coded x,y coordinates, because if you do, the coordinates will be relative to the top left hex of the map=, and that'd be awkward :p
20160222 18:05:56< zookeeper> if that makes any sense
20160222 18:06:19< zookeeper> so, the easiest way is to use a simpler rule first to flag the hex you want, and then a more general rule to apply the image to it
20160222 18:07:09< DeFender1031> hmm
20160222 18:08:10< DeFender1031> i'm not sure i follow how map= works
20160222 18:08:10< zookeeper> if you wanted to do the same thing with hex-sized images, then you should just do what the aforementioned macros in deprecated-utils.cfg do
20160222 18:08:48< zookeeper> the map= works by checking which places on the gamemap the given pattern matches. * means the hex can be anything, and 1 means it corresponds with the [tile] that has pos=1
20160222 18:09:13< zookeeper> so it matches any place where there's a hex which has the dragonthing flag and which is surrounded by lots of anything
20160222 18:10:07< zookeeper> i guess it might be kind of unintuitive :p
20160222 18:10:54< DeFender1031> yeah, i'll have to play with it more to try to understand it.
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20160222 18:12:36< zookeeper> basically you don't need to modify it at all, aside from changing the coords, flag and image
20160222 18:13:12< DeFender1031> right
20160222 18:13:24< DeFender1031> still, i like to understand what it is i'm doing...
20160222 18:13:30< zookeeper> sure
20160222 18:14:36< DeFender1031> hmm... if i understand correctly, if i were to add another * to lines 12, 14, and 16, this would be usable for something which extends two hexes to the right instead of just one?
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20160222 18:15:25< zookeeper> yes
20160222 18:15:43< zookeeper> or you can add new rows to the bottom, to make it extend further down
20160222 18:15:54< DeFender1031> got it
20160222 18:16:12< DeFender1031> so this map thing is LITERALLY a map of the surrounding tiles to affect along with this one
20160222 18:16:19< zookeeper> it is
20160222 18:16:36< DeFender1031> okay, i think it makes sense now
20160222 18:16:53< zookeeper> note that if you added rows to the top or columns to the left, you'd need to adjust the center= coordinates as well, because as the comment says, they're relative to the top left of the map=
20160222 18:17:19< zookeeper> and in that map=, 90,144 is the center of the 1 hex
20160222 18:18:50< zookeeper> and you can center it anywhere you want naturally, it's just that in this case it rather makes sense to center it on the hex you gave the coordinates for
20160222 18:19:04< DeFender1031> right
20160222 18:19:21< DeFender1031> it's not hard to figure out the pixel values for centering though
20160222 18:20:02< DeFender1031> i just did a heck of a lot of animations which used the magic number 108 a lot. :P
20160222 18:22:11< DeFender1031> hmm... by "top left", does that mean the first one on the first row or second row (both could be considered top-left)
20160222 18:22:20< zookeeper> the terrain graphics system is wonderful in that it can do virtually anything, even if it's kind of complicated and it's hard to understand the interactions when you got hundreds of rules
20160222 18:22:25< DeFender1031> oh wait, nevermind, i'm an idiot
20160222 18:22:38< DeFender1031> the top row is the outer one, not the inner one.
20160222 18:22:48< DeFender1031> heh
20160222 18:24:41< zookeeper> oh and the only reason the topmost row exists there at all is because if you leave it out, the game still internally considers it the way i wrote it (as in, has to have a top left hex), and in that case the relationship of the map= and the center= coords would be less clear
20160222 18:25:09< zookeeper> which is something i at one point found terribly confusing, because usually those kind of rules are written without the top row (that is, only having 7 hexes)
20160222 18:26:10< zookeeper> if there's one thing i find to be the most awkward thing in the whole system, it's that
20160222 18:26:19< DeFender1031> i noticed. last week when i was just starting out, i had been wondering whether the map editor had a bunch of hacks in it to make the neighboring hexes fit together more nicely (like some other map editors i've seen). When I examined the map output and noticed that the hex codes were all, in fact, the same no matter which variation of that hex type was showing, it became clear to me that there was some kind of deterministic 
20160222 18:26:21< DeFender1031> system in place.
20160222 18:27:03< DeFender1031> that IS pretty awkward. though, that could all be avoided if it were to center based on the 1
20160222 18:27:10< DeFender1031> unless... can this have more than one 1 in it?
20160222 18:27:16< zookeeper> yes
20160222 18:27:22< zookeeper> it can have anything :>
20160222 18:27:35< DeFender1031> what does it mean if there's more than one 1?
20160222 18:28:33< zookeeper> it means that the rule only matches locations where there's several hexes with the dragonthing flag, arranged in the given pattern
20160222 18:29:43< zookeeper> which, in this case (unless you use it multiple times) can't actually ever happen
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20160222 18:30:26< DeFender1031> ah
20160222 18:30:34< zookeeper> it's something that's basically only used in making actual terrain graphics, unnecessary for single-image use like this
20160222 18:30:42< DeFender1031> but using a different set of filter criteria, it could
20160222 18:30:51< DeFender1031> right
20160222 18:31:32< DeFender1031> so i'm guessing you could also create multiple filters like that, give each a different number, and specify the arrangement that must exist (a 1 here, a 2 there, whatever here)
20160222 18:31:43< zookeeper> yes
20160222 18:32:11< DeFender1031> fascinating
20160222 18:32:24< zookeeper> and, like, if you wanted a dragon on every mountain hex, you could just remove the first rule entirely, and replace has_flag=dragonthing with type=M*
20160222 18:32:52< DeFender1031> which would be a ridiculous thing to do, but it's a good example
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20160222 18:36:28< DeFender1031> (actually, my first creation when i was starting out last week before the serious story i'm doing now was to create a campaign where my leader and recruit list were a custom "super dragon" with fire dragon as the base unit, but with movement set ridiculously high, all resistances set to max, all terrain defense set to max, movement costs set to 1 for all terrain (including impassible) etc. It ended up being exactly the same kind 
20160222 18:36:29< DeFender1031> of silly your example would be. Needless to say, it was a very short fight.)
20160222 18:36:54< natarajs> Hi. In the 'To the Harbor of Tirigaz' scenario in SotBE (BfW v. 1.12.1), won't a goblin knight who drinks the Holy Water get arcane melee attack?
20160222 18:37:37< zookeeper> natarajs, no, because he's stupid and drank it instead of pouring it on the wolf's claws and teeth
20160222 18:37:45< DeFender1031> isn't the holy water in that scenario just there as a joke?
20160222 18:37:49< zookeeper> yeah
20160222 18:37:58< natarajs> Lol.. Oh man..
20160222 18:38:05< DeFender1031> i laughed so hard at that
20160222 18:38:19< DeFender1031> and yeah, natarajs, it's the rider drinking it, not the wolf :P
20160222 18:38:40< zookeeper> arguably, the goblin should have arcane teeth at that point
20160222 18:39:04< DeFender1031> arguably, but the goblin doesn't actually have a bite attack so...
20160222 18:39:11< zookeeper> sadly
20160222 18:39:23< DeFender1031> it would have been disappointing if it weren't so darn funny
20160222 18:39:50< natarajs> DeFender1031: Yeah, I realized it when I saw the attack type hadn't changed. Thought I's confirm anyway. Nice joke! :-))
20160222 18:40:12< zookeeper> maybe a spin-off campaign about a goblin rider who fought with kapou'e and then went on to fight undead unarmed using his teeth that were the wonder of the whole clan
20160222 18:40:39< zookeeper> no one knew why he could kill ghosts by biting them when no one else could
20160222 18:40:48< zookeeper> but he became legendary because of that
20160222 18:41:43< DeFender1031> hahahaha
20160222 18:43:26< DeFender1031> actually, speaking of which, how does canon work? Obviously everything in mainline is canon, but is there any additional information anywhere that is also considered canon? Are popular add-ons considered canon? What kind of backlash can an author expect if their add-on conflicts with another add-on?
20160222 18:49:32< zookeeper> i guess nothing outside of mainline is really considered canon, but it's kind of... loose
20160222 18:51:12< zookeeper> and add-ons can contradict each other however much they want, they don't have to adhere to some collective UMC canon, but of course no one wants someone to take their characters and do something completely contradictory with them
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20160222 18:52:13< zookeeper> but i doubt anyone minds if there's multiple contradictory add-on stories about something originally referenced in mainline
20160222 18:53:03< zookeeper> like, if i have an add-on about the first wesfolk invasion, then you're free to make your own different story about it, as i don't own the idea
20160222 18:53:42< zookeeper> but if you take my original characters and use them in your version, then i'd look at you a bit funny
20160222 18:55:43< natarajs> zookeeper: Did the no. of contributors increase substantially after the call for help last year?
20160222 18:56:26< zookeeper> natarajs, not really substantially
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20160222 18:58:38< zookeeper> i must admit i don't really have a clear picture of how many people appeared after it, and how many stayed and did something substantial
20160222 18:58:53< natarajs> That's just sad but I'm party to it too. :-/
20160222 18:59:14< celticminstrel> I think probably about three?
20160222 18:59:23< celticminstrel> That I can think of.
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20160222 19:25:29< DeFender1031> zookeeper, what's this "call for help" natarajs refers to?
20160222 19:27:13-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160222 19:29:23< natarajs> DeFender1031: check the wesnoth.org news section on the main page. Last item.
20160222 19:30:16< natarajs> DeFender1031: or better yet, http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=42912#p587671
20160222 19:30:34< celticminstrel> ...are those news posts automatically fetched from the forum?
20160222 19:31:53< DeFender1031> ah, thanks.
20160222 19:32:59< DeFender1031> interesting. i don't know how much time i'll have to devote to it, but i'd love to help
20160222 19:33:20< DeFender1031> i know C++ and now i (sort of) know WML
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20160222 19:39:51< DeFender1031> don't know lua or python though.
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 23 00:00:51 2016