--- Log opened Thu Mar 17 00:00:28 2016
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20160317 00:56:57< celticminstrel> PR618 errored. :/
20160317 00:57:09< celticminstrel> If someone wants to merge it anyway though, I'm okay with it.
20160317 00:57:53< celticminstrel> Erroring is not as bad as failing.
20160317 00:58:23< celticminstrel> Though, every sub-build errored, which is slightly suspicious...
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20160317 02:10:04< celticminstrel> vultraz, Aginor, anyone else who cares about formula: should I remove this commit?
20160317 02:10:05< celticminstrel> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/624/commits/08734e6571d65a690d1da8b1e8c27c2976e82906
20160317 02:10:25< celticminstrel> And replace it with a dedicated boolean type in the formula engine?
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20160317 02:35:09< celticminstrel> Also, should I remove this? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/624/commits/ca2da8b4fab069750d46a27b9c6ffe0241b938e7
20160317 02:35:57< celticminstrel> I'm having second thoughts on it since the design of the formula language seems to render the short-circuiting concern irrelevant, except for efficiency concerns.
20160317 02:37:44< celticminstrel> Debug functions in a single formula all end up happening more or less at the same time, for example (okay, there is an order to them, and implementing the short-circuiting does make some small difference, but it's mostly irrelevant and I think only applies to the debug functions.)
20160317 02:39:16< celticminstrel> And it seems that even AI functions that appear to cause a side-effect actually don't do anything at call time.
20160317 02:41:58< celticminstrel> Instead, they return an action object, which tells FAI what to perform.
20160317 02:42:22< celticminstrel> (Which I suspect may be why FAI does not have separate check_attack() etc as the Lua AI does.)
20160317 02:42:34< celticminstrel> (Since an invalid attack evaluates to null.)
20160317 02:43:21< celticminstrel> It's not like implementing short-circuiting changes nothing, but I'm having second thoughts about whether the change is useful. 
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20160317 05:03:17< dzaazd> I've failing to compile wesnoth on OS X. I've been following https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnMacOSX, but have run into "Checking for Ogg Vorbis support in SDL... (cached) no".
20160317 05:03:44< dzaazd> I've brew installed sdl_mixer, which I expected to cover this.
20160317 05:04:09< dzaazd> And directly installed sdl_mixer via https://www.libsdl.org/projects/SDL_mixer/.
20160317 05:04:19< dzaazd> Is this a reasonable place to ask for help with this?
20160317 05:05:07< celticminstrel> This is a reasonable place.
20160317 05:05:30< celticminstrel> Myself and ancestral are likely the best people to talk to, as well as mattsc and... I'm not quite sure... maybe Aginor.
20160317 05:06:02< dzaazd> Do you have suggestions for next steps I should try / logs I should look at / etc?
20160317 05:06:30< celticminstrel> Are you trying to compile 1.12 or 1.13/master?
20160317 05:06:52< dzaazd> master
20160317 05:07:42< ancestral> dzaazd: Hi!
20160317 05:07:55< celticminstrel> And it sounds like you're not using XCode.
20160317 05:08:07< ancestral> dzaazd: Have you tried Homebrew?
20160317 05:08:21< dzaazd> For what it's worth, I had other missing sdl dependencies, but all of the others were resolvable by installing the appropriate looking brew package.
20160317 05:08:31< ancestral> I’m not sure we’ve updated the formula for 1.13
20160317 05:08:38< dzaazd> I'm using homebrew -- I'm not sure what you mean more than that.
20160317 05:08:50< celticminstrel> Oh right, ancestral is in charge of the homebrew formula, I think.
20160317 05:09:06< ancestral> iceiceice helped take it off the ground originally
20160317 05:09:18< celticminstrel> He uses macs?
20160317 05:09:20< ancestral> dzaazd: Are you buliding with —devel?
20160317 05:09:26< ancestral> celticminstrel: He doesn’t :-P
20160317 05:09:40< dzaazd> no -- `scons jobs=3 nls=false`
20160317 05:09:43< ancestral> But you can homebrew with Linux, I think
20160317 05:09:53< celticminstrel> Weird.
20160317 05:10:15< dzaazd> As for homebrew, I ran `brew install wesnoth --only-dependencies` among other things.
20160317 05:10:52< dzaazd> As for xcode, I've installed gcc and stuff with it (iirc) but am otherwise not using it.
20160317 05:11:06< dzaazd> i.e., I'm doing this all with scons / the command line, if that's what you mean.
20160317 05:11:29< dzaazd> I can try building 1.12 first if that would narrow things down.
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20160317 05:15:02< ancestral> gcc?
20160317 05:15:04< ancestral> Why?
20160317 05:15:15< ancestral> You don’t need gcc
20160317 05:15:39< ancestral> Let me try building via homebrew
20160317 05:15:41< dzaazd> Building 1.12 reports "Checking for Ogg Vorbis support in SDL... yes".
20160317 05:16:11< celticminstrel> More likely you installed clang rather than gcc...
20160317 05:16:20< dzaazd> I mostly meant that some of my command line tools were installed via xcode.
20160317 05:16:20< celticminstrel> Since that's the compiler bundled with XCode.
20160317 05:19:10< dzaazd> I'll start git bisecting, since that's something I know how to do.
20160317 05:21:21< ancestral> Okay
20160317 05:23:52< ancestral> dzaazd: Did you see: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=577235#p577235
20160317 05:24:52< ancestral> Also, what version of OS X are you running, btw?
20160317 05:25:16< ancestral> (more curious rather than a need to know)
20160317 05:27:55< dzaazd> I did see that thread. I only skimmed it since it hasn't been updated since early 2015. I'll read more now while bisecting.
20160317 05:28:02< dzaazd> I'm running El Capitan.
20160317 05:28:20< celticminstrel> Which is... 10.10, right?
20160317 05:28:45< dzaazd> 10.11, I believe. I'm running 10.11.3 specifically.
20160317 05:32:58< ancestral> Okay
20160317 05:33:34< dzaazd> The error I'm seeing starts with e8c3e99dadf6ade3b57819bc0c65b7ef4c03a076 "Make SDL2 the default in cmake and scons", so presumably this is an SDL1 vs SDL2 issue.
20160317 05:34:38< ancestral> Ah okay
20160317 05:34:41< ancestral> Yes
20160317 05:34:49< ancestral> the formula probably needs updating
20160317 05:36:35< ancestral> Looking through it right now
20160317 05:38:13 * ancestral is deleiting MacPorts
20160317 05:38:47< celticminstrel> ...eh?
20160317 05:40:39< ancestral> Homebrew isn’t liking someting MacPorts is holding on to apparently
20160317 05:40:47< ancestral> for me anyway
20160317 05:44:09< ancestral> scons: *** [wesnoth] Target disabled because its prerequisites are not met
20160317 05:44:10< ancestral> scons: building terminated because of errors.
20160317 05:44:11< ancestral> Hmm
20160317 05:46:47< ancestral> I ran it again
20160317 05:49:13< ancestral> dzaazd: Okay so the file /usr/local/Library/Taps/homebrew/homebrew-games/wesnoth.rb is telling homebrew what to do
20160317 05:50:23< ancestral> Basically, s/sdl/sdl2
20160317 05:51:04< ancestral> Lines 37-42
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20160317 05:54:57< dzaazd> ancestral: I agree that should be fixed -- but I think that solves the problem of me needing to install the sdl2 brew packages manually.
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20160317 05:55:16< dzaazd> But I've done that, and sdl2_mixer still isn't doing what I need it to.
20160317 05:55:29< dzaazd> I believe the header files aren't getting picked up for some reason.
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20160317 05:57:01< dzaazd> But if you've tried making that change and you see it works, then I'm wrong.
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20160317 06:02:22< dzaazd> I'm trying to figure out how TryRun works, since this is what scons is doing. I think right now I just don't understand the paths.
20160317 06:03:54< ancestral> I am getting an error with translations
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20160317 06:46:43< zookeeper> vultraz, Aginor, so have you done something that would explain why the editor has incredibly poor rendering performance all of a sudden (as in, starting from a couple of days ago, tops)?
20160317 06:47:00< vultraz> nope
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20160317 06:47:50< celticminstrel> vultraz: Anything to say on that formula stuff earlier?
20160317 06:48:02< vultraz> celticminstrel: not really. you know better than I what works best
20160317 06:48:25< celticminstrel> Well, do you think having a dedicated boolean type is better?
20160317 06:49:05< vultraz> dedicated boolean types are nice
20160317 06:49:24< celticminstrel> If there's a dedicated boolean type, there's no reason to have xor and xnor operators.
20160317 06:49:51< celticminstrel> (Provided of course that there's a way to say "interpret this as a boolean". Which there is - "not not val".)
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20160317 06:51:15< zookeeper> vultraz, Aginor, because whereas on a build from the 13th (dunno which exact rev) i get 30fps, on a current build i get 10.
20160317 06:51:24< zookeeper> so, uh, something's changed somewhere.
20160317 06:51:35< vultraz> roll back a few days and see if something changes
20160317 06:51:42< zookeeper> "roll back a few days"
20160317 06:51:48< zookeeper> no i'm not going to spend literally hours bisecting it
20160317 06:52:11< zookeeper> when there's educated guesses to be had
20160317 06:52:29< vultraz> well I checked src/editor for revisions, nothing since the 15th that changed\
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20160317 06:53:45< vultraz> zookeeper: try rolling back bf2ec4df82086a1ba1e3a10bec8bdcce6dc8ab5a
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20160317 06:55:58< vultraz> that's the only likely thing I see
20160317 06:56:21< celticminstrel> So did you want to merge the unit effects branch?
20160317 06:56:42 * zookeeper tries
20160317 06:57:45< vultraz> I'm fine with merging 
20160317 07:07:35< Aginor> zookeeper: no, the latest thing I did that could have affected that was merging my PR
20160317 07:07:53< Aginor> zookeeper: if 1.13.4 is good, and head isn't, I don't think it's me
20160317 07:08:01< Aginor> you could always bisect
20160317 07:08:53< zookeeper> yeah, i'm testing that revision vultraz suggested
20160317 07:09:53< Aginor> ok
20160317 07:10:38< zookeeper> the awful compile times make stuff like this very tedious
20160317 07:11:43< vultraz> indeed
20160317 07:11:51< celticminstrel> Someone should go through and see if they can eliminate other high-use headers.
20160317 07:12:00< celticminstrel> Like display.hpp or variant.hpp.
20160317 07:12:12< celticminstrel> (Changing variant.hpp triggers 243 files to rebuild here.)
20160317 07:12:20< celticminstrel> (Which is, I think, around half the source.)
20160317 07:12:43< celticminstrel> By "eliminate" I mean don't include them in headers - forward-declare the class instead.
20160317 07:13:16< vultraz> what does that file do anyway
20160317 07:13:43< celticminstrel> variant.hpp is the WFL value container.
20160317 07:15:48< vultraz> variant.hpp is included in 6 files
20160317 07:16:00< celticminstrel> How many of those files are headers?
20160317 07:16:20< vultraz> 4
20160317 07:16:38< vultraz> one of which is formula.hpp
20160317 07:16:57< celticminstrel> Do you know what situations an incomplete class can be used in?
20160317 07:17:05< vultraz> I'll check
20160317 07:17:32< celticminstrel> If they're only used in that kind of situation, the include can be deleted and a forward declaration of the class placed near the top.
20160317 07:17:54< vultraz> I know how to forward declare
20160317 07:17:59< celticminstrel> I'm sure you do.
20160317 07:18:41< zookeeper> hmh, no. i reverted bf2ec4d and the two following commits too, but that didn't help.
20160317 07:18:53< vultraz> hm
20160317 07:18:55< vultraz> not sure then
20160317 07:19:18< celticminstrel> GASP. THE FORMULA DEBUGGER WORKS.
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20160317 07:19:34< vultraz> the what?
20160317 07:19:35< zookeeper> i wonder if it could be the sdl 1.2 removal.
20160317 07:19:44< celticminstrel> vultraz: tformula_debugger, I think it is.
20160317 07:19:50< vultraz> zookeeper: unless you're building with sdl1, no
20160317 07:19:57< vultraz> celticminstrel: ah, a dialog?
20160317 07:19:58< celticminstrel> It was disabled behind --new-widgets.
20160317 07:20:12< celticminstrel> And it looks like it might actually be very useful for debugging WFL code.
20160317 07:20:21< vultraz> I think we need to drop --new-widgets
20160317 07:20:25< vultraz> it's broken as hell
20160317 07:20:26< celticminstrel> It's invoked by a WFL function.
20160317 07:21:38< vultraz> using that toggle breaks All The Dialogs
20160317 07:22:06< celticminstrel> You mean passing --new-widgets breaks everything?
20160317 07:22:16< vultraz> yes
20160317 07:22:18< celticminstrel> I merely made the formula debugger not test for the flag.
20160317 07:22:18< vultraz> try it
20160317 07:23:49< celticminstrel> Oh dear, the formula debugger's markup is broken.
20160317 07:24:00< vultraz> what markup?
20160317 07:24:00< celticminstrel> I can still read it, but...
20160317 07:24:04< celticminstrel> Pango.
20160317 07:24:05< vultraz> pango?
20160317 07:24:11< celticminstrel> Yes.
20160317 07:24:14< vultraz> will fix
20160317 07:24:30< celticminstrel> Might be harder than you think, as it'll definitely be dynamically generated.
20160317 07:25:32< celticminstrel> It actually looks valid to me (assuming that in the event of invalid markup it just prints out the markup unparsed).
20160317 07:25:46< vultraz> hm..
20160317 07:25:51< vultraz> actually
20160317 07:25:52< vultraz> hm
20160317 07:25:54< vultraz> celticminstrel: screenshot please
20160317 07:25:57< celticminstrel> Hmm, there are some empty span tags.
20160317 07:28:15< celticminstrel>  http://celmin.pwcsite.com/wesnoth/fdb-broken.png
20160317 07:28:29< celticminstrel> Do you want me to also paste the code so you can reproduce it?
20160317 07:28:42< celticminstrel> (The formula code.)
20160317 07:28:58< vultraz> yes
20160317 07:29:09< celticminstrel> You know how to enter formula code?
20160317 07:29:26< vultraz> no
20160317 07:29:57< celticminstrel> I evaluated three formulas (without the quotes) - "def fib(x)", "def fib(x) if(x <= 2, 1, fib(x-1) + fib(x-2))", and "debug(fib(5))".
20160317 07:30:05< celticminstrel> To evaluate a formula, press F.
20160317 07:31:02< celticminstrel> The first one might need another x on the end of it, I can't recall.
20160317 07:31:41< vultraz> but how do I get the debugger
20160317 07:31:54< celticminstrel> That third formula launches it.
20160317 07:32:01< celticminstrel> Oh right.
20160317 07:32:05< celticminstrel> You need to enable it.
20160317 07:32:16< celticminstrel> Line 162 of formula_debugger.cpp.
20160317 07:32:30< celticminstrel> Just replace gui2::new_widgets with true or something..
20160317 07:32:33< vultraz> markup works for me
20160317 07:32:55< celticminstrel> It didn't happen immediately. I pressed "Step operation" a few times first.
20160317 07:33:17< vultraz> works completely 
20160317 07:33:25< celticminstrel> Hm, weird.
20160317 07:35:24< celticminstrel> Out of curiosity, what was the final value it printed onscreen?
20160317 07:37:50< vultraz> ..the fuck
20160317 07:37:58< vultraz> it suddenly tells me fib() isn't a command
20160317 07:38:07< vultraz> it just worked :|
20160317 07:38:11< vultraz> now it doesn't
20160317 07:38:17< celticminstrel> Maybe you pressed ; instead of F
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20160317 07:38:37< celticminstrel> I've done that before (and the reverse, and also pressing ; and then typing lua code).
20160317 07:38:50< celticminstrel> (I think at least once I even pressed F and then typed Lua code.)
20160317 07:39:28< vultraz> no I definitely pressed F
20160317 07:40:07< vultraz> oh wait
20160317 07:40:12< vultraz> you need to do the first command first
20160317 07:40:21< vultraz> you didn't tell me this
20160317 07:40:44< celticminstrel> Oh, yeah, those three formulas need to be entered in order.
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20160317 07:41:23< vultraz> ah
20160317 07:41:25< vultraz> ok
20160317 07:41:32< vultraz> so it's the second formula that breaks formatting
20160317 07:41:38< celticminstrel> Eh?
20160317 07:41:39< vultraz> before i was trying with the first and third only
20160317 07:41:43< celticminstrel> Oh.
20160317 07:41:59< celticminstrel> Yeah, without the second you wouldn't get anything interesting.
20160317 07:42:50< celticminstrel> Oh my, its representation of maps is missing the commas.
20160317 07:44:21< celticminstrel> ...but not when it prints the final result of evaluating one...
20160317 07:44:38< celticminstrel> I think this dialog might be getting slowed down by Aginor's layered rendering stuff...
20160317 07:44:47< celticminstrel> The text behind it sometimes disappears or something.
20160317 07:45:07< celticminstrel> ...I actually think that clicking any button closes it though, and then reopens it at the next step.
20160317 07:45:24< vultraz> yes, that seems to be the case
20160317 07:46:34< vultraz> im really not sure why this is broken
20160317 07:47:11< celticminstrel> I'm not sure either.
20160317 07:47:24< celticminstrel> I'm also not sure why my recursion doesn't seem to work.
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20160317 08:11:42< vultraz> celmin|sleep: got it
20160317 08:11:50< vultraz> it's the '>' character
20160317 08:11:58< vultraz> er, <
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20160317 08:47:26< zookeeper> i can't bisect the performance issue because i can't compile those revisions because of reasons that are too long to explain.
20160317 09:00:10 * Aginor finally has some time and boots his development machine
20160317 09:03:34 * Aginor pulls
20160317 09:08:30< vultraz> Aginor: I'm tacking some improvements to the gui2 mp lobby
20160317 09:09:03< Aginor> I'm just going to see if I can spot the performance problem
20160317 09:10:16< zookeeper> i tried to go back to the commit after the sdl 1.2 drop, but can't compile that for aforementioned reason, so...
20160317 09:10:47< Aginor> so ummm
20160317 09:10:55< Aginor> what's the performance problem?
20160317 09:11:29< vultraz> he says there's severe fps drop in the editor
20160317 09:11:32< vultraz> i don't observe this
20160317 09:12:02< Aginor> I'm sitting at 50 fps
20160317 09:12:06< Aginor> in the editor
20160317 09:12:37< Aginor> Turning everything into water sees me jumping between 45 and 51
20160317 09:12:57< Aginor> with wesnoth using 50-60% of 1 core
20160317 09:13:04< Aginor> X at 25%
20160317 09:13:57< Aginor> hmm
20160317 09:14:19< Aginor> maximizing the game across both monitors puts me down to ~25fps across both monitors
20160317 09:15:33 * Aginor builds 1.13.4 tag
20160317 09:15:34< vultraz> I'm looking at between 20 and 50 in the DW S1 map in the editor
20160317 09:15:45< vultraz> zookeeper: cannot reproduce
20160317 09:16:20< zookeeper> you haven't said anything of what your fps was before
20160317 09:16:37< vultraz> you can't get more than 50
20160317 09:16:42< zookeeper> i know
20160317 09:16:50< vultraz> (I think we should make the max 60, but that's off topic)
20160317 09:16:54< vultraz> so it doesn't matter what it was before
20160317 09:16:59< vultraz> if I get 50 now that means I was never better
20160317 09:17:04< vultraz> it*
20160317 09:17:19< Aginor> cpu usage is interesting too
20160317 09:17:23< zookeeper> well, yes, true, with that in mind, you can't reproduce
20160317 09:18:14< zookeeper> Aginor, would one need to do something to their dll files after the 1.2 drop? presumably not, but just in case...
20160317 09:18:38< Aginor> zookeeper: no, not unless they already were in a bad state :)
20160317 09:21:02< Aginor> getting 25-28fps in same scenario with 1.3.14
20160317 09:21:19< Aginor> cpu usage is ~75% on one core
20160317 09:21:32< Aginor> and X is at ~25
20160317 09:22:21< Aginor> window size is around 3250x1000
20160317 09:22:21< zookeeper> hrhm. i do have a bunch of local code changes, but i can't see how they could cause a performance drop.
20160317 09:22:22< vultraz> so there's an improvement?
20160317 09:22:50< Aginor> vultraz: I haven't done any tests, but I don't think the number is statisically significant
20160317 09:23:02< Aginor> it's within the margin of error
20160317 09:23:13< Aginor> it's dropped down to ~20fps now
20160317 09:24:02< zookeeper> (well, there _should_ be a slight performance improvement with beaches and stuff since 1.13.4, but probably very slight)
20160317 09:24:02< Aginor> that low fps count makes the hex selector feel rather laggy
20160317 09:24:18< Aginor> zookeeper: I was testing with water only, no beaches
20160317 09:24:24< zookeeper> oh? okay then
20160317 09:25:00< zookeeper> water only isn't that intensive, it's when you mix it with lots of beaches and gray/tropical waters, shallows and deeps, etc
20160317 09:25:29< Aginor> it's intensive enough to cause a performance drop at that level
20160317 09:28:03< zookeeper> gfgtdf, bcb06e4 (the changes to lua_common) is still causing a link error for me: error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "int __cdecl translation::compare(class std::basic_string<char,struct std::char_traits<char>,class std::allocator<char> > const &,class std::basic_string<char,struct std::char_traits<char>,class std::allocator<char> > const &)" (?compare@translation@@YAHABV?$basic_s
20160317 09:28:03< zookeeper> tring@DU?$char_traits@D@std@@V?$allocator@D@2@@std@@0@Z)
20160317 09:29:23< zookeeper> i just have locally reverted the change to that file, and that fixes compilation for me
20160317 09:38:23< Aginor> hmm
20160317 09:38:36< Aginor> I just increased fps by 5-10 in my testcase
20160317 09:38:46 * Aginor enabled hardware acceleration
20160317 09:39:06< Aginor> it might be worthwhile, although it wont help much
20160317 09:39:23< Aginor> I wonder what'll happen if I start converting surfaces to textures :D
20160317 09:39:29< Aginor> probably a big mess
20160317 09:49:14 * Aginor facepalms
20160317 09:49:21< Aginor> my performance tests are invalid
20160317 09:49:27< Aginor> and my changes aren't
20160317 09:49:33< Aginor> actually tested
20160317 09:49:56< Aginor> I was in the wrong repo
20160317 09:53:05< zookeeper> whoops.
20160317 09:54:09< Aginor> yes
20160317 10:02:19< Aginor> at least we know 1.13.4's performance
20160317 10:02:23< Aginor> time to retest master
20160317 10:03:21< zookeeper> uh... huh. i can't profile the performance difference either, at least not with very sleepy. as long as it's profiling, the editor is just... frozen. but that's only with my build from the 13th or so.
20160317 10:04:47< Aginor> I'm not being very scientific about it
20160317 10:04:57< Aginor> I'm just running with --fps and looking at top
20160317 10:05:12< zookeeper> well, that's what i do, too. it's consistent enough.
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20160317 10:08:57< zookeeper> anyway: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/sleepy_low_editor_fps.png <- looks suspicious to me that it's spending that much time on texture creation, and that highlighted destroy stuff looks odd too
20160317 10:09:50< zookeeper> and this is after all terrain images have been loaded, so it's not that
20160317 10:10:18< Aginor> ok
20160317 10:10:24< Aginor> no distinct difference for me
20160317 10:10:31< zookeeper> of course i can't see the full trace of GL_CreateTexture and co so i can't tell where it's coming from
20160317 10:11:03< Aginor> that's probably happening within SDL2 itself
20160317 10:11:10< Elvish_Hunter> Hi :)
20160317 10:11:15< Aginor> as there's no code within wesnoth that calls those functions
20160317 10:11:27< Aginor> hey Elvish_Hunter 
20160317 10:11:30< zookeeper> holy crap this dialog flickering is pretty bad though
20160317 10:11:38< Aginor> hmm
20160317 10:11:40< Aginor> ?
20160317 10:11:41< zookeeper> Aginor, well yes, i meant whatever wesnoth calls that leads to those calls
20160317 10:11:57< Aginor> zookeeper: is it constantly flickering?
20160317 10:12:39< zookeeper> well not literally constantly
20160317 10:12:44< zookeeper> there seems to be some kind of pattern to it
20160317 10:13:15< Aginor> you should only ever see a flicker when it redraws everything, which happens if yhou've drawn over the screen with another window or you've closed a dialog
20160317 10:13:17< zookeeper> like, just open the editor, alt-tab out, back again, go to preferences, browse around a bit... surely you see a lot of flickering?
20160317 10:14:41< zookeeper> if i had to guess, i'd guess that whenever something changes, such as a tooltip comes up, it redraws everything, which includes the map if animated terrains are involved, leading to a flicker
20160317 10:15:23< zookeeper> more specifically: the flicker doesn't seem to happen when for example a tooltip in preferences comes up, it happens when that tooltip disappears
20160317 10:15:46< Aginor> it does too
20160317 10:15:53 * Aginor blames GUI2 preferences
20160317 10:15:58< Aginor> because that's new :D
20160317 10:16:38< zookeeper> i have preferences open, and i've alt-tabbed out. i alt-tab back in, there's two flickers, then it calms down. i can move my mouse carefully around, and for example hit a tooltip. all good so far (except map labels bleed through). however, when i move the mouse so the tooltip disappears, flicker.
20160317 10:16:54< Aginor> yeah, tooltips cause flicker
20160317 10:17:07< vultraz> I activated the tooltips two days ago
20160317 10:17:09< vultraz> :|
20160317 10:17:16< vultraz> they cause no flicker for me
20160317 10:17:43< vultraz> oh
20160317 10:17:45< vultraz> wait
20160317 10:17:46< vultraz> in the editor
20160317 10:17:51< vultraz> yes, in the editor they cause flicker
20160317 10:17:52< Aginor> we need to eliminate that flicker in general
20160317 10:17:59< vultraz> Aginor: flip() refactor?
20160317 10:18:07< Aginor> yeah
20160317 10:18:19< vultraz> alright, I'll work on that 
20160317 10:18:22< Aginor> I'll get started on the weekend I hope
20160317 10:18:27< vultraz> or you?
20160317 10:18:29< Aginor> let's call the branch flickerfix
20160317 10:18:32< vultraz> one of us :P
20160317 10:18:39< Aginor> we can both work on it :)
20160317 10:18:54< vultraz> I can get started, if you point me in the right direction
20160317 10:19:59< Aginor> Check if draw_event is always sent, or only when GUI2 is active
20160317 10:20:15< Aginor> if they're always around, have them call flip() in the event handler (for now)
20160317 10:20:31< Aginor> eliminate all other places calling flip()
20160317 10:20:43< Aginor> hopefully it'll work
20160317 10:20:59< vultraz> what is raise_draw_event()?
20160317 10:21:17< Aginor> something that should probably be removed if it's safe to do so
20160317 10:21:31< Aginor> it doesn't actually send the event, it just pretends it did
20160317 10:21:56< vultraz> hm
20160317 10:21:58< zookeeper> are you sure those GL_CreateTexture calls aren't a result of all this flip stuff you've been doing?
20160317 10:22:01< vultraz> so I take it timer_sdl_draw_event is what we want?
20160317 10:22:19< Aginor> vultraz: yes, that should ideally be left untouched
20160317 10:22:30< Aginor> zookeeper: they certainly will contribute
20160317 10:22:50< Aginor> zookeeper: not doing it more often than needed will be good for performance
20160317 10:23:06< Aginor> zookeeper: but it will be an improvement on the old state of things
20160317 10:25:08< vultraz> hm
20160317 10:25:23< vultraz> grepping for draw_event only gives me all these raise_draw_event_calls
20160317 10:26:00< vultraz> oh wait
20160317 10:26:02< vultraz> I had match case on
20160317 10:27:15< zookeeper> i'm still confused how/why no one else is seeing the performance drop.
20160317 10:27:45< zookeeper> i guess i have to test without even my most innocent-looking local changes
20160317 10:27:51< vultraz> yup
20160317 10:29:23< Aginor> zookeeper: are you on the same windows version as someone else?
20160317 10:29:34< zookeeper> 7
20160317 10:29:36< Aginor> are you using the same SDL2 DLLs
20160317 10:29:44 * zookeeper shrugs
20160317 10:29:56< Aginor> zookeeper: I think wedge009 is on the same version, you could ask him
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20160317 10:38:48< vultraz> I'm on windows 10
20160317 10:38:50< vultraz> for reference
20160317 10:39:03< wedge009> Windows 7 x64 Pro is the OS for my primary machine. I'm pretty sure I'm using the official binaries for SDL 2.0.4 from libsdl.org. I haven't tested master for a couple of days - let me know what to look for in terms of flickering if you want me to confirm something.
20160317 10:39:28< wedge009> Compiling with VC 14/2015.
20160317 10:40:08< Aginor> wedge009: zookeeper is concerned with a performance regression in the editor
20160317 10:40:19< Aginor> zookeeper: vultraz and I cannot reproduce
20160317 10:40:48< wedge009> Ah. I generally don't use the editor. Anything specific to look for or just general sluggishness?
20160317 10:41:12< Aginor> wedge009: I think it's all in the backlog
20160317 10:41:14< vultraz> Aginor: quick question: do I need to use event.user.code at all?
20160317 10:41:33< Aginor> wedge009: afaik, it's just using it
20160317 10:41:43< Aginor> vultraz: I don't think so, not any longer
20160317 10:42:11 * Aginor goes to bed
20160317 10:42:24< zookeeper> wedge009, a good test map is campaigns/Dead_Water/maps/Home_1.map
20160317 10:42:31< vultraz> oh, wait
20160317 10:42:39< vultraz> timer_sdl_draw_event is behind an #ifdef
20160317 10:42:55< wedge009> I read up to a bit before Aginor's disappointment regarding invalid performance testing.
20160317 10:43:11< Aginor> disappointment?
20160317 10:43:17< Aginor> I don't think I expressed any
20160317 10:43:19< wedge009> I know 1st DW scenario is pretty intensive. I'll have a look.
20160317 10:43:23< Aginor> ah
20160317 10:43:34< Aginor> wrong repo kind of thing
20160317 10:43:43< wedge009> Aginor: Just the face-palming about the wrong repository, yeah.
20160317 10:43:47< wedge009> No big deal.
20160317 10:44:31< vultraz> runtime error
20160317 10:44:33< vultraz> fun!
20160317 10:44:38< Aginor> yeah
20160317 10:44:42< Aginor> just a waste of time
20160317 10:44:49< Aginor> anyway
20160317 10:44:51< Aginor> I'm off
20160317 10:44:57< Aginor> catch you laters
20160317 10:44:58< wedge009> Yes, go to sleep!
20160317 10:50:00< Elvish_Hunter> zookeeper, vultraz: you might be interested in this: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/630
20160317 10:50:33< Elvish_Hunter> It's the `hexometer` port to Python that I was talking about yesterday.
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20160317 10:52:13< zookeeper> huh, hmm, what. without any local changes the performance has jumped back to almost normal levels.
20160317 10:52:33< vultraz> so it's your changes :)
20160317 10:52:40< zookeeper> that doesn't make sense. because the older build i keep referencing has basically all the same changes in it.
20160317 10:53:20< zookeeper> and the difference wasn't the one change i had added since then, i tested that separately
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20160317 11:03:29< zookeeper> i got it!
20160317 11:05:14< zookeeper> i had this local change in one place, and i knew that it wasn't the culprit as such. however, at some point while waffling with stuff one "nsurf" had gotten changed to a "surf"
20160317 11:05:54< zookeeper> it must have been when i had to salvage some lost local changes from the stash, and it must have been an older stash than i thought
20160317 11:07:00< wedge009> zookeeper: That's good. I had a check of that DW map and it did take a second or two to load but otherwise I didn't really notice anything terribly slow (though my computer is fairly fast).
20160317 11:07:12< wedge009> Sorry I took so long, was doing some other things while waiting for compilation.
20160317 11:07:40< zookeeper> what sort of fps do you get there (in case you had the fps counter on)?
20160317 11:08:47< wedge009> I can check - how do I switch on the counter?
20160317 11:11:36< wedge009> Never mind, found it.
20160317 11:13:38< wedge009> Maximising the number of water hexes on display, I still hit a maximum of over 50 fps, but it tends to fluctuate in the 40s.
20160317 11:13:59< zookeeper> right
20160317 11:14:23< wedge009> As before CPU usage is nearly a full thread.
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20160317 11:17:49< gfgtdf> zookeeper: 20160317 09:28:03< zookeeper> gfgtdf, bcb06e4 (the changes to lua_common)
20160317 11:17:58< gfgtdf> zookeeper: maybe you build withotu gettext boost ?
20160317 11:18:15< zookeeper> i don't know?
20160317 11:19:22< gfgtdf> zookeeper: check if you build bompiles the gettext_boost.cpp file
20160317 11:21:11< zookeeper> no idea how to do that, but at least there's no files named "gettext"anything in the external libs dir
20160317 11:23:06< gfgtdf> zookeeper: well no its part of wesnoth not  of the exernals
20160317 11:23:33< zookeeper> oh
20160317 11:24:04< gfgtdf> zookeeper: of wesnothlib if you use the msvc projectfiles
20160317 11:24:08< zookeeper> well, i'll check once this compile run finishes
20160317 11:24:14< zookeeper> ah
20160317 11:24:18< zookeeper> i guess it's missing there, then
20160317 11:24:24< zookeeper> or rather
20160317 11:24:31< zookeeper> i just need to compile wesnothlib first
20160317 11:26:37< gfgtdf> zookeeper: hm usually your compiler shodul autmatically notice if wesnothlib was changes when you attempt to build wesnothand recompile it first
20160317 11:27:14< zookeeper> i had the same problem with something else before too, and just compiling wesnothlib first fixed it
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20160317 11:52:36< zookeeper> gfgtdf, yeah, that worked
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20160317 12:18:35< irker202> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 86261779f22e / data/gui/default/widget/scroll_label_verbatim.cfg: tscroll_label: update to verbatim style (matches description now) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/86261779f22e9ed08313a2f48814e4c96595dc82
20160317 12:18:36< irker202> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e8dd50aa8c92 / data/gui/default/window/formula_debugger.cfg: tformula_debugger: use verbatim scroll labels https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e8dd50aa8c92b54f958f8f8e3909a57c2bdbcc58
20160317 12:19:50< irker202> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0a8247d837a2 / src/ai/formula/ai.hpp: Forward-declare a variant header include https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0a8247d837a2718706f5a6948d0f943d25ca49cf
20160317 12:23:52< vultraz> Aginor: ok, so I realized that timer_sdl_draw_event is in the GUI2 event dispatcher, and as such, only works with gui2
20160317 12:24:29< vultraz> Aginor: also looks like raise_draw_event() cannot be removed completely
20160317 12:24:45< vultraz> Aginor: it results in behavior like gui1 menu items not drawing :|
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20160317 12:35:29< vultraz> ehhh
20160317 12:35:30< vultraz> hm
20160317 12:35:38< vultraz> yeah, the handling is weird
20160317 12:36:07< vultraz> Aginor: use of raise_draw_event() and flip() seem intertwined 
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20160317 12:36:49< vultraz> I'm still trying to figure out how removing one affects the use of the other
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20160317 13:23:44< fabi> hi
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20160317 14:21:29< vultraz> gfgtdf: it seems tlistbox::remove_row is broken for horizontal listboxes
20160317 14:24:37< mattsc> celmin|sleep: was wesnoth.put_unit() changed?  (not in your PR, but before)
20160317 14:25:55< mattsc> Oh, right.  The order of the parameters was changed.
20160317 14:26:26< mattsc> Sigh, I am having lots of problems with the MAIs, and I am not sure (yet) what the sources are.
20160317 14:27:37< vultraz> :/
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20160317 14:46:14< mattsc> Oh, hmm, dimensions of Dark Forecast map have changed too…
20160317 14:46:34< mattsc> Looks like I need a more organized approach to this.
20160317 14:46:47< mattsc> This = checking and updating the MAIs.
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20160317 15:44:44< celmin|sleep> Yup, so that it could be installed as a "method" in the unit metatable.
20160317 15:45:28< celmin|sleep> The old ordering does still work.
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20160317 16:00:04< mattsc> celticminstrel: does remiving units with put_unit() still work?
20160317 16:00:33< celticminstrel> Yes, but it should be changed to erase_unit().
20160317 16:01:00< mattsc> ok
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20160317 16:33:35< fabi> vultraz: Hi, do you have a little time for me?
20160317 16:34:28-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@f054135038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160317 16:34:36< gfgtdf> fabi: are you still planning to use teh "core" feature ?
20160317 16:35:04< fabi> gfgtdf: I don't plan to use the Wesnoth engine at all anymore.
20160317 16:35:15< gfgtdf> ok
20160317 16:35:49< fabi> Especially do I not want to contribute anymore code to the c++ codebase.
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20160317 16:36:24< fabi> gfgtdf: Why do you ask?
20160317 16:36:25< celticminstrel> The what feature?
20160317 16:36:50< gfgtdf> fabi: y the question was more whteher there are any addons that use that feature  and whether we should remove it from the titlescreen menu.
20160317 16:36:51< fabi> gfgtdf: I hope you do not want to remove it. It was a feature request by zookeeper.
20160317 16:37:23< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: You're talking about moving it, not removing it, right?
20160317 16:37:28< celticminstrel> eg, putting it in prefs somewhere.
20160317 16:38:00< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y
20160317 16:39:13< celticminstrel> It's a useful feature with a limited audience, so I think that makes more sense than having it on the main screen.
20160317 16:40:08< zookeeper> it's a good feature to have, but yes obviously <insert obvious things>
20160317 16:40:21< celticminstrel> Also, when I tried, I don't think the "no addons" core actually worked.
20160317 16:40:27< celticminstrel> That is to say, it loaded addons.
20160317 16:41:46 * celticminstrel wonders what's so special about verbatim labels and why vultraz used them in the formula debugger.
20160317 16:42:50< fabi> vultraz: The ladder community asked me to add some mp maps they consider polished and exciting to data.
20160317 16:43:11< fabi> vultraz: With your permission I will do that.
20160317 16:43:47< vultraz> celticminstrel: monospace font
20160317 16:44:05< vultraz> fabi: what maps?
20160317 16:44:08< celticminstrel> Ahh, nice. Of course... that means it's now going to look terrible due to the font issues, but... oh well.
20160317 16:44:25< celticminstrel> (Assuming it's the same monospace as the gamestate inspector.)
20160317 16:44:47< celticminstrel> It's a good change, even if it's broken on Macs.
20160317 16:44:47< fabi> vultraz: Clearing Gushes, Ruined Passage, Ruphus Isle, Scarred Foothills, Swamp Of Dread, The Walls Of Pyrennis
20160317 16:45:07< celticminstrel> It's an HttT MP map! :O
20160317 16:45:25< fabi> vultraz: Tombs Of Kesorak and Hellhole
20160317 16:46:12< vultraz> fabi: where are they?
20160317 16:46:36< vultraz> though perhaps you should speak to zookeeper 
20160317 16:46:45< fabi>  Sandbox Map Picker addon
20160317 16:46:47< vultraz> imo you can add them as long as they're polished
20160317 16:46:48 * celticminstrel hopes these names mean something to vultraz, because apart for that one they're all completely meaningless to me.
20160317 16:46:58< vultraz> they do not :P
20160317 16:48:17< vultraz> celticminstrel: do you know how to escape pango markup?
20160317 16:48:28< vultraz> it was the '<' character in your formula that was breaking the formatting
20160317 16:48:34< celticminstrel> vultraz: Not sure, try HTML entities.
20160317 16:48:38< celticminstrel> eg, &lt;
20160317 16:48:45< celticminstrel> Or &gt; for >
20160317 16:48:57< celticminstrel> Failing that, look up the Pango documentation.
20160317 16:49:26< zookeeper> uh, yeah, "some nameless dudes asked for 8 new maps to be added" is not enough information for anyone to say anything about their inclusion.
20160317 16:50:18< celticminstrel> Well, I guess he's given you enough info to actually download them and try them out, at least.
20160317 16:50:32< fabi> I think the fact that the ladder players want them added is good enough.
20160317 16:50:44< fabi> And that kind of unfriendlyness hurts the project.
20160317 16:50:51< fabi> You should better watch your mouth zookeeper.
20160317 16:50:55< zookeeper> fabi, what's your relation to the ladder community (of which i know nothing about)? i didn't think you played any MP and have no idea why they'd ask you.
20160317 16:50:59< zookeeper> are you drunk again?
20160317 16:51:24< fabi> fuck you
20160317 16:51:25< vultraz> fabi: don't make me regret adding you back to the project
20160317 16:51:49< celticminstrel> I don't think ladder players wanting them added is good enough by itself, but... somehow I feel like I can trust their opinion of whether they're balanced and such.
20160317 16:52:00< celticminstrel> So it's at least reason enough to evaluate them.
20160317 16:52:07< celticminstrel> In my opinion.
20160317 16:52:15< fabi> ^ That is the right spirit.
20160317 16:52:17< zookeeper> Sandbox Map Picker addon, eh... yeah, worth a look. there's not been new MP maps added in ages.
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20160317 16:53:41< celticminstrel> (I too was confused by the fact that they chose to ask fabi for this, though.)
20160317 16:53:58< celticminstrel> (Nothing against fabi, he just doesn't strike me as the person you'd go to for adding maps.)
20160317 16:55:03< vultraz> gah, damn formatting thing
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20160317 17:00:39< zookeeper> i'm not in charge of multiplayer maps and i have no opinion on gameplay merits, but if new ones are added then of course they need to have proper descriptions (some of them don't), checked for typos (some of them have some), the scenarios properly indented and stuff (some of them aren't), and possibly weird exceptional rules explained or removed (at least rime grotto).
20160317 17:02:01 * zookeeper wishes multiplayer maps didn't have this weird tradition of creditation in the descriptions, but meh
20160317 17:05:50< vultraz> we should probably remove that
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20160317 17:09:44< zookeeper> looks like there's much fewer of those than i remembered, anyway
20160317 17:11:50< celticminstrel> So about the formula PR.
20160317 17:12:20< vultraz> i can find how to escape the characters in pango, but not c++
20160317 17:12:24< celticminstrel> Not many people have commented on it. Should I go ahead and merge it?
20160317 17:12:32< celticminstrel> Before merging, should I squash some commits?
20160317 17:12:39< celticminstrel> vultraz: How in Pango?
20160317 17:12:52< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Any objections to merging PR618?
20160317 17:12:54< vultraz> python
20160317 17:12:56< vultraz> sorry
20160317 17:12:58< vultraz> not pango
20160317 17:13:04< vultraz> at least I think it's python
20160317 17:13:06< vultraz> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1760070/how-to-escape-characters-in-pango-markup
20160317 17:13:16< celticminstrel> Uh.
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20160317 17:14:32< celticminstrel> vultraz: https://docs.python.org/2/library/cgi.html#cgi.escape
20160317 17:14:37< celticminstrel> That explains what the function does.
20160317 17:15:00< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: why did you add a lua_settop in initiliaze ? 
20160317 17:15:17< celticminstrel> You can replicate its behaviour by running through the string (by index) in reverse and using str.replace(i, 1, "escaped form") if it's one of those characters.
20160317 17:15:20< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: What?
20160317 17:15:27< vultraz> ....what?
20160317 17:15:40< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/618/commits/5bfb9fba32a164b1beda0a585b193622d2eeccbb#diff-cbc1ee771a060a08f4e069e6049ce7acR4545
20160317 17:16:14< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Oh right, I think I remember. For some reason I was getting crashes, and that fixed it, if I recall correctly.
20160317 17:16:59< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm this looks like the wrong way to fix it to me
20160317 17:17:04< celticminstrel> vultraz: Which part don't you understand?
20160317 17:17:13< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: you shodul rather change set_builtin_effect not to leave those things on the stack
20160317 17:17:29< vultraz> celticminstrel: you want me to check every character in the string?
20160317 17:17:31< vultraz> in a loop?
20160317 17:17:34< vultraz> and do..something?
20160317 17:17:39< celticminstrel> vultraz: Yes.
20160317 17:18:07< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Oh yeah, I guess I am leaving something on the stack in set_builtin_effects. Whoops.
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20160317 17:18:55< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: It doesn't hurt to leave that extra settop in, does it? I'll fix the set_builtin_effect thing.
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20160317 17:20:16< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: lua_pop(L, 2) should be correct, right?
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20160317 17:20:38< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y i'd think so
20160317 17:22:32< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i actually think it'd be better to have a 'push_builtin_effect' (instead of 'set_builtin_effect') and do the rest in initiloze()
20160317 17:23:00< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: one of te advantages woudl be that you woudl need to quer wesnoth.effects only once and not for every element int he loop
20160317 17:23:21< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: I was modelling it after set_wml_action. >_>
20160317 17:23:35< celticminstrel> What you say makes sense though.
20160317 17:23:40< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y i know, same pllied to set_wml_action
20160317 17:23:44< gfgtdf> applies*
20160317 17:24:01< celticminstrel> So, basically, if I were to do that...
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20160317 17:24:31< celticminstrel> Fetching the table and the final rawset would be moved out to the initialize function, right?
20160317 17:25:12< celticminstrel> Basically the first and last line.
20160317 17:25:45< celticminstrel> Okay, this is too complicated to do on github after all. I'll update it a bit later then.
20160317 17:26:40< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Any objections to merging after I change this?
20160317 17:27:13< vultraz> celticminstrel: but I don;'tj know what to replace them with
20160317 17:27:58< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well not really, i still dont really see the usecases for it but neigher it think its bad.
20160317 17:30:46< celticminstrel> So vultraz or anyone else... any objections to merging the formula PR? And, if not, should I squash some commits first or just leave it with 30 or whatever commits?
20160317 17:31:32< vultraz> squash if you feel they're too WIP
20160317 17:31:37< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i still vote for removing forula from wesnoth after finding a solution for the gui2 code
20160317 17:31:57< celticminstrel> Most of them aren't WIP, just small single-feature commits.
20160317 17:37:03< vultraz> then it's fine
20160317 17:40:20< celticminstrel> Do fullscreen dialogs suppress redrawing of stuff behind them? I wonder if the formula debugger would be sped up by making it fullscreen. (On the other hand, it constantly closes and reopens, so who knows...)
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20160317 17:43:31< vultraz> no idea
20160317 17:46:00< celticminstrel> Even if it doesn't make it any faster, at least it would surely prevent me from  accidentally clicking "Next operation" instead of "Step operation" due to the fact that the dialog grows taller every time I click the latter.
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20160317 17:49:43< vultraz> should I enable the dialog?
20160317 17:49:47< vultraz> ie, remove the new widgets check
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20160317 17:51:26< celticminstrel> That's fine with me, as long as it's not used anywhere (checking now).
20160317 17:51:38< celticminstrel> Alternatively, replace the new_widgets check with a check for debug mode.
20160317 17:51:49< celticminstrel> Then it wouldn't matter if it's used anywhere.
20160317 17:52:20< celticminstrel> (The debug mode that you activate with ;debug, not the one you activate with --debug; they might be the same though, not sure.)
20160317 17:52:42< celticminstrel> It's not used anywhere.
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20160317 18:13:07< Necrosporus> I have noticed that there are a lot of changes in development version's translations
20160317 18:16:22< celticminstrel> Good changes? Bad changes?
20160317 18:17:38< Necrosporus> At least in some places
20160317 18:18:04< Necrosporus> And changing names of unit is usually a bad change because it makes tactical literature outdated
20160317 18:21:06< celticminstrel> When was the name of a unit changed?
20160317 18:21:42-!- irker918 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160317 18:21:42< irker918> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 80823d7987cd / src/formula_debugger.cpp: Enable formula debugger in debug mode https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/80823d7987cdc499c8900fccb46ee13f42b1bf67
20160317 18:22:53< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, somewhere between 1.12 and 1.13
20160317 18:23:13< celticminstrel> vultraz: I think it could cause problems if the formula debugger somehow activated while the formula debugger is displaying; should that dialog disable debug mode when shown and, if it was previously enabled, re-enable it when closed?
20160317 18:23:17< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: Which unit?
20160317 18:23:26< vultraz> probably the giant crab
20160317 18:23:37< Necrosporus> One third of mainline units
20160317 18:23:42< celticminstrel> Eh?
20160317 18:23:47< vultraz> eh???
20160317 18:23:50< celticminstrel> What are you talking about? :|
20160317 18:23:52< Necrosporus> Compare https://www.wesnoth.org/units/trunk/mainline/ru_RU/mainline.html and 
20160317 18:24:10< Necrosporus> unit names in russian translation
20160317 18:24:36< celticminstrel> Okay what am I comparing too.
20160317 18:24:40< Necrosporus> Compare with https://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.12/mainline/ru_RU/mainline.html
20160317 18:25:15< Necrosporus> Oh, it changed too
20160317 18:25:32< celticminstrel> I'll check 1.10 version then.
20160317 18:25:37< Necrosporus> Yes
20160317 18:26:09< celticminstrel> Which race should I look at?
20160317 18:26:25< Ravana_> I noticed berserker image moved few pixels up between these 2 links
20160317 18:26:40< vultraz> yes
20160317 18:26:51< celticminstrel> That's a really weird thing to notice, Ravana_ 
20160317 18:27:09< celticminstrel> Oh, I see some differences in merfolk.
20160317 18:27:23< Ravana_> well, I don't know much russian, so I observed all changes
20160317 18:28:43< celticminstrel> I don't know any Russian and can't remember the English names of this unit line off the top of my head...
20160317 18:29:23< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, point the cursor
20160317 18:29:29< celticminstrel> Eh?
20160317 18:29:33< Necrosporus> the name in link is english
20160317 18:29:35< celticminstrel> Oh!
20160317 18:29:44< celticminstrel> Heh, weird but handy.
20160317 18:29:46< celticminstrel> Okay.
20160317 18:30:18< Ravana_> thats because file names are from unit ids
20160317 18:30:39< Necrosporus> Колдунья to Чаровницы (that's a plural name)
20160317 18:31:52< celticminstrel> Hmm, based on rudimentary Wiktionary lookup, the old name seems more accurate for the Merman Javelineer.
20160317 18:32:58< celticminstrel> I can't tell for the Entangler since Wiktionary doesn't have those words.
20160317 18:33:28< celticminstrel> I dunno, I assume all or most of these changes had reasons related to increasing the accuracy of the translation, but I don't know any Russian so I can't be sure.
20160317 18:34:26< Necrosporus> I think that some names are better in new versions some in old
20160317 18:35:34< celticminstrel> The Druid's second attack is still called "séduction" in French. I should get around to reporting this weirdness.
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20160317 18:38:22< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, still, I think that it's inappropriate to change unit names in stable
20160317 18:38:51< celticminstrel> Eh, maybe in a stable branch.
20160317 18:38:57< Necrosporus> Some translation changes are acceptable but not unit names and not naes of attack
20160317 18:39:51< celticminstrel> Interesting how French translated "cavalier" to "cuirassier" but used "cavalier" for a different unit...
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20160317 18:40:46< celticminstrel> ...surely "loup noir" is not the correct translation of "dire wolf"...
20160317 18:42:03< celticminstrel> Wikipedia is no help, they use the scientific name. 
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20160317 20:09:11< vultraz> celticminstrel: monospace fonts are broken on mac?
20160317 20:09:18< celticminstrel> Yes.
20160317 20:09:28< vultraz> same pango issue?
20160317 20:09:35< celticminstrel> Yes, I think so.
20160317 20:09:38< vultraz> blagh
20160317 20:09:40< celticminstrel> It's probably using Courier or Monaco.
20160317 20:10:04< celticminstrel> And worse, punctuation doesn't show up at all most of the time.
20160317 20:10:08< gfgtdf> are there alternaitves to pango ?
20160317 20:10:10< vultraz> we need to fix that bug
20160317 20:11:11< gfgtdf> hmm i just tried to instll msvc 2015 not engough disk space..
20160317 20:12:01< vultraz> D:
20160317 20:12:03< vultraz> nuu
20160317 20:14:14< Necrosporus> Who is more cool, a necromancer or a dark sorcerer?
20160317 20:14:20< Necrosporus> They were switched around
20160317 20:14:29< celticminstrel> Huh, really?
20160317 20:14:50< Necrosporus> Yes, in old versions of wesnoth, necromancer was lvl2 and dark sorcerer lvl3
20160317 20:15:13< gfgtdf> Necrosporus:  i think the curent makes more sense
20160317 20:15:22< Necrosporus> probably
20160317 20:15:23< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: specialyl since teh lvl 1 is called drak adept
20160317 20:15:27< celticminstrel> Uhh. That's wrong.
20160317 20:15:35< celticminstrel> Dark sorcerer is level 2 and necromancer is level 3.
20160317 20:15:42< Necrosporus> Currently 
20160317 20:15:48< Necrosporus> but it was other way around before
20160317 20:15:56< celticminstrel> Okay, fair enough, I guess, but I still think it makes more sense this way.
20160317 20:16:08< Necrosporus> Probably
20160317 20:16:29< Necrosporus> Necromancer is more specialized version of dark sorcerer perhaps
20160317 20:17:04< Necrosporus> but in other hand, dark sorcerer knows not just necromancy
20160317 20:17:22< celticminstrel> I would say the necromancer also knows more than just necromancy?
20160317 20:17:35< Necrosporus> it could for example master the magic of darkness
20160317 20:17:45< Necrosporus> like mage of light but opposite
20160317 20:17:53< Necrosporus> probably
20160317 20:18:00< celticminstrel> Hmm, I suppose what you're saying is that there could be another advancement path from dark sorcerer.
20160317 20:18:16< Necrosporus> Maybe
20160317 20:18:25< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: is there a way to make the .git directory smaller ? Like in only the commits from the last year?
20160317 20:18:38< celticminstrel> I wish. :(
20160317 20:18:52< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, with a spell to corrupt enemy units
20160317 20:19:05< celticminstrel> You could try uh... what was it again...
20160317 20:19:21< celticminstrel> ...oh, but that actually wouldn't reduce the size, would it...
20160317 20:19:30< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: Define "corrupt"
20160317 20:19:38< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: y my intention is do reduce the size
20160317 20:20:29< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Does 'git branch -a' show a ton of old remote branches? You might be able to delete some of those to free a little space, at least if they're unmerged branches.
20160317 20:20:52< celticminstrel> Deleting merged branches of course won't do anything to save space, because those commits are also in the master branch.
20160317 20:21:14< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, for example make them attack a random unit during next turn, without control of the owner
20160317 20:22:11< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm let me check
20160317 20:24:46< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: it shows me tons of "remotes/upstream/..."
20160317 20:25:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: (in red color, not sure what that means)
20160317 20:25:24< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: The red probably means either "remote" or "not merged". I'm just guessing here.
20160317 20:25:59< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i also still have the 1.12 branch locally, maybe i shodul remove it by now
20160317 20:26:24< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Those are local copies of branches in the github repo. You can probably delete them with 'git branch -d' or 'git branch -D' (the latter forces deletion of unmerged branches).
20160317 20:26:33< celticminstrel> I haven't personally tried this yet, mind you.
20160317 20:26:52< celticminstrel> Mainly because I suspect that one of the programs I use would just redownload them if I did it.
20160317 20:28:21< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: what is the size of your .git directoy in wesnoth ?
20160317 20:29:20< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: ~2.7GB
20160317 20:30:01< celticminstrel> BTW, deleting unnecessary branches from your own fork on github may also be useful.
20160317 20:30:45< celticminstrel> What I did at one point was 'git push --prune', which deletes any remote branches that don't exist locally.
20160317 20:30:55< celticminstrel> vultraz: ^ I recommend this
20160317 20:31:35< celticminstrel> (Though of course, first make sure there are no remote branches of your own you want to keep that don't exist locally.)
20160317 20:31:48< celticminstrel> (By "of your own" I mean ones that don't exist in the main wesnoth repo.)
20160317 20:32:58< celticminstrel> :/
20160317 20:33:10 * celticminstrel tried git branch -D on one of them just now and it didn't work.
20160317 20:34:15< celticminstrel> There's also 'git remote prune upstream' (or replace upstream with another remote), but I suspect that wouldn't do much (if anything) do reduce size...
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20160317 20:35:23< celticminstrel> Ah, you need 'git branch -r -d' (or -D) to delete remote-tracking branches.
20160317 20:35:41< celticminstrel> Aha. "if git fetch was configured not to fetch them again'
20160317 20:36:07< celticminstrel> This sounds like it could be useful.
20160317 20:39:12< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: im traing to do a git gc now could take some time
20160317 20:39:30< celticminstrel> Yeah, that could help, especially if you rebase frequently.
20160317 20:39:36< celticminstrel> (As I do. >_> )
20160317 20:39:52< celticminstrel> When you rebase, the old version of the commits still hangs around for awhile.
20160317 20:41:28< celticminstrel> It looks like you can prevent git from downloading literally everything by changing the fetch= line in the [remote "upstream"] section in .git/config. (Which can also be changed with the 'git config' command somehow.)
20160317 20:42:06< celticminstrel> It defaults to something like +refs/heads/*:refs/remotes/upstream/*
20160317 20:42:42< celticminstrel> I'm guessing you could change it to (for example) +refs/heads/master:refs/remotes/upstream/master to only fetch the master branch by default.
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20160317 21:29:09< gfgtdf> hmm the git gc is not 92% completed
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20160317 21:41:14< gfgtdf> hmm 99% now
20160317 21:41:33< celticminstrel> vultraz: Were you fixing the markup issue in the formula debugger, or should I do it?
20160317 21:44:29< vultraz> celticminstrel: can you do it
20160317 21:44:34< celticminstrel> Sure.
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20160317 21:53:27< celticminstrel> Hmm. Still getting the error... did I miss something?
20160317 21:53:35< celticminstrel> Ohh, yes, I did.
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20160317 21:58:18< celticminstrel> Another interesting thing I discovered - "where" variables are also lazily-evaluated.
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20160317 22:00:14< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: that gc command decreased the size of the .git directoy from 4.4 gb to 1.8 gb
20160317 22:00:20< celticminstrel> Wow.
20160317 22:01:57-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160317 22:03:19< celticminstrel> I'm a bit dubious of the colours here...
20160317 22:03:24< celticminstrel> vultraz: What do you think?
20160317 22:03:51< celticminstrel> Yellow seems to mean "step out" and red is the result.
20160317 22:03:59-!- irker054 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160317 22:03:59< irker054> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 4e6a4e8aad24 / data/core/images/terrain/mountains/ (29 files): Cleaned up off-hex stray pixels https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4e6a4e8aad24bdd5628d2124b4c13f29a732434d
20160317 22:04:02< celticminstrel> Green I guess is "step in".
20160317 22:04:15< celticminstrel> It's the red that's dubious really.
20160317 22:04:16< zookeeper> ^ i may have gone a bit OCD there, but once you see it it's hard not to fix it
20160317 22:05:41< zookeeper> it makes the game run faster, no matter how immeasurably :p
20160317 22:05:52< celticminstrel> Really? How does it do that?
20160317 22:12:29-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@f054135038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 45.0/20160303134406]]
20160317 22:12:57< celticminstrel> For now, I've changed it to orange.
20160317 22:15:41-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.45] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160317 22:18:21< celticminstrel> ...what the heck is "Unhandled event 2304".
20160317 22:19:30< celticminstrel> Looks to be from src/gui/auxiliary/event/handler.cpp:431.
20160317 22:19:54< vultraz> celticminstrel: what?
20160317 22:20:37< celticminstrel> I don't know if you're asking me about what I just said or about what I pinged you about.
20160317 22:20:38< vultraz> what do I think of what?
20160317 22:20:53< celticminstrel> Read the next few lines.
20160317 22:21:07< celticminstrel> And the one just above that too.
20160317 22:21:07< vultraz> I don't understand
20160317 22:21:17< vultraz> for the formula debugger?
20160317 22:21:22< celticminstrel> Oh, I guess nowhere did I mention that I was talking about the formula debugger.
20160317 22:21:26< celticminstrel> Yes.
20160317 22:21:34< celticminstrel> Sorry.
20160317 22:21:47< vultraz> I don't understand the colors
20160317 22:22:11< celticminstrel> Red means the result of evaluating some segment of the formula.
20160317 22:22:30< vultraz> that doesn't seem intuitive
20160317 22:22:33< zookeeper> celticminstrel, it does it by resulting in less images being blitted for the adjacent hex onto which the extra pixels fall
20160317 22:22:33< celticminstrel> I'm not sure how to describe the meaning of green and yellow. One interpretation would be this:
20160317 22:22:35< vultraz> that seems like an error
20160317 22:22:50< celticminstrel> Green means "now we are stepping into a new segment of the formula".
20160317 22:23:12< celticminstrel> Yelow means "now we have finished evaluating this segment of the formula and are stepping back up to the next level".
20160317 22:23:21< celticminstrel> Green is also used for the trace counter.
20160317 22:24:05< celticminstrel> [Mar 17@6:22:35pm] vultraz: that seems like an error
20160317 22:24:06< celticminstrel> That was kinda my train of thought too.
20160317 22:25:16< celticminstrel> For now 3I changed the red to orange; it looks better than red, at least.
20160317 22:31:08< irker054> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 541dbb95c919 / data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: Fixed Clean Gray Cobbles drawing transitions on itself https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/541dbb95c919cddf3e80f6d599a9bfa1662789f1
20160317 22:32:20< vultraz> zookeeper: would you mind if I add the Shroud and maybe Fog implementations from AtS to mainline
20160317 22:32:28< vultraz> right now the "shroud" and "fog" terrains we have are bs
20160317 22:32:30< vultraz> they're nothing
20160317 22:32:58< celticminstrel> Huh?
20160317 22:33:05< zookeeper> and the ones you'd add would look exactly like real shroud and fog?
20160317 22:33:21< vultraz> yes
20160317 22:33:29 * celticminstrel thinks of those terrains more as "transparent", anyway - useful for masks.
20160317 22:33:46< vultraz> we have Void for that
20160317 22:33:46< zookeeper> sounds good to me
20160317 22:34:37< zookeeper> how would fog work then?
20160317 22:34:51< vultraz> zookeeper: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b6kbtd7j340wjqm/shroud%20and%20fog.PNG?dl=0
20160317 22:35:13< zookeeper> an overlay?
20160317 22:35:19< vultraz> yes
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20160317 22:35:22< vultraz> both are  overlays
20160317 22:35:31< celticminstrel> No vultraz, I'm pretty sure that's not what void is for...
20160317 22:36:23< zookeeper> ok, but if you'd change them to overlays, then what happens to the terrain codes?
20160317 22:36:41< zookeeper> i mean, i think i know what we should do to them, but i'm not sure whether you had the same thing in mind :p
20160317 22:37:02< vultraz> hmmm
20160317 22:37:09< vultraz> I'll do whatever you suggest
20160317 22:38:09< zookeeper> right. in that case, we should keep the current [terrain]s but add hidden=yes, and then add new ones as overlays (_f -> ^_f)
20160317 22:39:13< celticminstrel> In my opinion it makes more sense for shroud to not be an overlay.
20160317 22:39:36< celticminstrel> Though, I guess it's not nonsensical for it to be an overlay, either.
20160317 22:39:53< celticminstrel> It's just that when there's shroud, you don't see anything underneath it, right?
20160317 22:39:57< zookeeper> well, yeah. kind of. but as an overlay it's less likely to mess with multihex patterns and other transitions.
20160317 22:40:02< vultraz> right
20160317 22:40:05< vultraz> plus, you can remove it
20160317 22:40:07< vultraz> or add it
20160317 22:40:18< celticminstrel> Provided there isn't another overlay already there. :P
20160317 22:40:24< zookeeper> sure
20160317 22:41:17< celticminstrel> Fog certainly makes more sense as an overlay, though with only two layers it still won't really be able to fully replicate actual fog.
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20160317 22:42:36< zookeeper> hrhm
20160317 22:43:18< zookeeper> then again, if they're overlays then you can't combine them with for example the impassable overlay, so i guess even fog would need to be naturally impassable?
20160317 22:43:49< zookeeper> i'm not sure if the current one is... i assume it is
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20160317 22:44:06< vultraz> why would it need to be impassable 
20160317 22:44:46< zookeeper> because the usual usecase would be edges of the map or other barriers
20160317 22:44:54< zookeeper> what else would you use it for?
20160317 22:45:21< vultraz> well the case in ats is to replicate a fog effect while over units
20160317 22:45:43< vultraz> like a dense fog that doesn't clear for units
20160317 22:47:32 * zookeeper scratches head
20160317 22:48:09< zookeeper> the shroud doesn't involve any new images, right? it just uses the existing ones?
20160317 22:49:03< zookeeper> speaking of which, i don't even know why the current one doesn't
20160317 22:49:12< vultraz> {OVERLAY_L                                *^Zos                   1              void/void }
20160317 22:49:13< vultraz> {TRANSITION_RESTRICTED_LF *^Zos (!,*^Zos) 1 overlay void/void }
20160317 22:49:20< vultraz> the code in umc
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20160317 22:50:03< zookeeper> right
20160317 22:50:21< zookeeper> eh, don't put anything in quite yet, i want to ponder on it a bit
20160317 22:50:31< vultraz> alright
20160317 22:51:40< zookeeper> like, it's easy enough to just add rules to make both get drawn like their real counterparts, but i find it rather hard to say how especially fog should actually behave
20160317 22:52:47< vultraz> If we're talking about these terrains, I'd also like to propose either removing Experimental Fake Map Edge or dropping the 'Experimental' moniker
20160317 22:53:23< zookeeper> yeah, it shouldn't be very experimental after the >5 years it's been in...
20160317 22:53:49< vultraz> except it's horribly broken
20160317 22:53:56< vultraz> it doesn't work like a map edge at all
20160317 22:54:05< vultraz> it doesn't interact well with the actual map edge
20160317 22:54:16< vultraz> as far as I can tell, it's useless
20160317 22:55:09< zookeeper> the main problem with it is that it doesn't interact with the actual edge
20160317 22:55:36< zookeeper> if it did, then i'd think it'd be much more natural padding for stuff like multiplayer map edges than the completely awful void that the multiplayer map designers for some unfathomable reason prefer
20160317 22:56:14< vultraz> well, then it needs to be fixed, transition-wise
20160317 22:56:27< zookeeper> cavewall? fine. chasms? fine. anything with a nice transition? fine. void, where everything just floats there completely flat? horrible.
20160317 22:56:54< vultraz> yup
20160317 22:57:08 * vultraz tests a contrast bump on the wood footbridges
20160317 22:57:48< zookeeper> wooden, plank, or hanging?
20160317 22:58:33< vultraz> Wooden
20160317 22:59:08< zookeeper> a slight one, maybe, if you absolutely must
20160317 22:59:15< zookeeper> they look completely fine to me though
20160317 22:59:39< vultraz> they look a bit dull, which is why I'm testing
20160317 22:59:45< vultraz> I just noticed
20160317 23:01:15< vultraz> you're not working on these files are you?
20160317 23:01:28< vultraz> bridge/wood*
20160317 23:03:11< zookeeper> nope
20160317 23:05:59< zookeeper> perhaps you'd instead/also like to handle the latest wiki registration request
20160317 23:06:04-!- Dugi [93fbd396@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.251.211.150] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160317 23:06:12< celticminstrel> Oh hey, a Dugi.
20160317 23:06:28< Dugi> Hello.
20160317 23:08:30< vultraz> zookeeper: I did
20160317 23:09:59< irker054> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 8b2ba647d16a / data/core/images/terrain/bridge/ (37 files): Slight contrast bump to Wooden Bridges (regular and rotten) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8b2ba647d16a651294737c194848f6f54295982d
20160317 23:10:06< vultraz> looks much better
20160317 23:10:19< Dugi> Some time ago, I submitted this idea to the ideas forum https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43792 and I got only little reply from anyone in the development team, just an endorsement from Beetlenaut. Since I have most of the code already written in the source code of the linked website, I could make a contribution of it. But I want to hear the voice of someone in a place of power first.
20160317 23:10:20< vultraz> amazing what simple contrast bumps can do
20160317 23:11:59< vultraz> Dugi: looks good to me, feel free to submit a PR
20160317 23:12:24< Dugi> What is a PR? Pull Request?
20160317 23:12:26< celticminstrel> I kinda like the current name generation, though it's true it occasionally produces pretty weird names.
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20160317 23:13:09< vultraz> Dugi: yes
20160317 23:13:41< celticminstrel> I wonder how it compares speed-wise.
20160317 23:13:48< celticminstrel> CFG vs Markov
20160317 23:14:08< celticminstrel> I'm trying to remember what makes a gramamr context-free.
20160317 23:14:18< celticminstrel> vs not
20160317 23:14:41< vultraz> I thought we pulled names from a long list in a the config file
20160317 23:14:46< celticminstrel> No.
20160317 23:14:53< celticminstrel> Those names are used as input for a Markov chain.
20160317 23:14:59< vultraz> A what now?
20160317 23:15:08< celticminstrel> Which randomly generates names that are similar to those in the list.
20160317 23:15:19< vultraz> huh
20160317 23:15:20< vultraz> ok
20160317 23:15:33< celticminstrel> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain
20160317 23:15:52< celticminstrel> Maybe that link's not so great actually... hmm...
20160317 23:16:21< celticminstrel> Well, whatever.
20160317 23:17:30< Dugi> The idea behind my approach is that it's more configurable. The most obvious consequence is avoiding crappy names, but you can also get fancier stuff, like surnames or titles. For example this: http://physics.muni.cz/~dugi/index.fcgi/cfggen-bWFpbj17bmFtZX1cbntuYW1lfVxue25hbWV9XG57bmFtZX1cbntuYW1lfVxue25hbWV9XG57bmFtZX1cbntuYW1lfVxue25hbWV9XG57bmFtZX1cbntuYW1lfVxue25hbWV9XG57bmFtZX1cbntuYW1lfVxue25hbWV9XG57bmFtZX0KbmFtZT17cHJlZml4
20160317 23:17:41< celticminstrel> I don't understand how the grammar is being specified on your web page...
20160317 23:17:43 * zookeeper has no particular opinion on name generation, except that the general theme of what the names look/sound like shouldn't be changed just because
20160317 23:17:50< Dugi> Base64
20160317 23:18:01< celticminstrel> That is very obviously not Base64.
20160317 23:18:25< Dugi> Hm, I mean the link is the generator's source code in Base64.
20160317 23:18:34< celticminstrel> Oh, I think I get it.
20160317 23:18:54< celticminstrel> Dugi: I was referring to the format of the code in the text box.
20160317 23:18:56< zookeeper> Dugi, oh and i haven't forgotten/abandoned that Other Thing (tm), just taking my (long) time with it as usual
20160317 23:19:16< Dugi> zookeeper: Longer than usual.
20160317 23:19:33< celticminstrel> That sample grammar seems too simple to me.
20160317 23:19:41< celticminstrel> But I guess more complex stuff is possible too.
20160317 23:19:50< vultraz> that page doesn't show properly for me
20160317 23:20:14< Dugi> What browser do you have? I do have some small issues on some browsers.
20160317 23:20:28< vultraz> chrome
20160317 23:21:08< celticminstrel> Dugi: In your opinion, is better name generation needed for all races, or is the Markov chain sufficient for some of them?
20160317 23:21:15< Dugi> I had some issues on Opera, but Chrome was always fine for me... Try Firefox, I was mainly testing it on that one. However, since it's a problem with the library I am using, I can't do much about it.
20160317 23:21:34< zookeeper> Dugi, i dunno, it's not unusual for my usual to end up being years. but in this case i've just legitimately been busy with all the other stuff i've been doing here.
20160317 23:21:54< celticminstrel> zookeeper is making me curious. >_>
20160317 23:22:17< Dugi> zookeeper: I am not complaining. I have other stuff to do.
20160317 23:22:33< Dugi> zookeeper: I mean that I can do other things, no problem.
20160317 23:22:36< vultraz> the only project I know of was addon server reviews
20160317 23:22:42< vultraz> but afaik that was scraped 
20160317 23:22:59< zookeeper> celticminstrel, glorious, secret things that will annoy certain people and delight mainly myself, i guess. i'll publish it eventually :P
20160317 23:23:21< vultraz> but it sounds like Plans are happening behind our backs :P
20160317 23:24:01< Dugi> vultraz: That's something unrelated. shadowmaster was adamant in his totally counterproductive idea to add a login system to comment instead of storing IP addresses for some time to prevent cheating. Nobody would comment if logging in was necessary. So it went deadlock.
20160317 23:24:13< Dugi> vultraz: It's merely an add-on.
20160317 23:25:13 * celticminstrel pokes Dugi for answer
20160317 23:25:42< vultraz> Dugi: I wanted a system where your profile extended to more than just addons
20160317 23:25:53< Dugi> Regarding the CFG generator, it might not be necessary in all cases, as far as I know some races don't have disturbing names, but if you wanted to add something fancier....
20160317 23:26:06< Dugi> vultraz: So scrape my code and do it yourself.
20160317 23:26:18< vultraz> I don't have the time or the skills
20160317 23:26:27< celticminstrel> I like that you don't have to create an account to do stuff in Wesnoth (MP games, publishing addons, etc).
20160317 23:26:55< vultraz> I do not
20160317 23:27:01< vultraz> we should have accounts
20160317 23:27:07< vultraz> plus, then we'd have player metadata
20160317 23:27:13< Dugi> vultraz: You seem to have plenty of time. When you spend it making minor facelifts to some rarely used graphics. But the point about skill might matter. If you admit yourself that you don't have skill for something, you most likely don't have it.
20160317 23:27:40< Dugi> vultraz: If I wrote that shadowmaster wanted something else, would you support that idea too?
20160317 23:27:58< vultraz> Dugi: for god's sake, I'm not shadowmasters puppet 
20160317 23:28:07< vultraz> you sound like fabi 
20160317 23:28:19< fabi> yeah
20160317 23:28:27< celticminstrel> I don't like having to create tons of accounts for every little thing.
20160317 23:29:15< vultraz> celticminstrel: an account would allow you to track mp stats
20160317 23:29:17< Dugi> celticminstrel: Yes, that is what I thought. I often write a comment to some article and when I realise that I have to log in, I better abandon the text.
20160317 23:29:23< fabi> Hi Dugi :-)
20160317 23:29:24-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20160317 23:29:25< vultraz> completed campaigns across computers
20160317 23:29:27< vultraz> etc
20160317 23:29:36< Dugi> vultraz: Those MP guys would push implementing a ladder system then.
20160317 23:29:43< vultraz> so?
20160317 23:30:01< celticminstrel> A ladder system is probably something to be implemented server-side, possible as a bot, surely?
20160317 23:30:02< Dugi> fabi: Hi. I just wanted to drop in... it seems I'll spend here a half of the night.
20160317 23:30:16< vultraz> I've never been specifically opposed to a ladder system
20160317 23:30:17< fabi> That can happen.
20160317 23:30:25< celticminstrel> As for MP stats, you can still track them (and we do) without accounts.
20160317 23:30:27< vultraz> I don't believe in the whole "it would make thinks competitive" view
20160317 23:30:31< Dugi> vultraz: Well, someone clearly is when it's not implemented for ages.
20160317 23:30:38< vultraz> celticminstrel: I meant on a player basis
20160317 23:30:51< vultraz> celticminstrel: say if you want to know how many times you've played a map, or what your best faction is
20160317 23:31:13< Dugi> vultraz: Also, that would bias the presence on the add-on server towards the multiplayer community and MP add-ons, which are generally played much less, would get much more support.
20160317 23:31:21< Dugi> vultraz: I mean feedback, not support.
20160317 23:31:26< fabi> Dugi is right. I pretty much share his opinions on that matter.
20160317 23:31:31< celticminstrel> vultraz: If it's stats for yourself, they can be tracked client-side and stored on your computer. If you need server-side stats, you can estimate based on IP addresses.
20160317 23:31:39< fabi> And most likely some more.
20160317 23:31:58< vultraz> celticminstrel: not the best solution
20160317 23:32:27< vultraz> Dugi: again, I say: 'so?'
20160317 23:32:47< celticminstrel> It's not a bad solution.
20160317 23:33:08< vultraz> celticminstrel: your stats would be reset when you installed wesnoth on a new machine
20160317 23:33:15< Dugi> vultraz: Well, reviews mostly from the MP players PoW are not ideal for most players who don't play MP much.
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20160317 23:33:35< vultraz> obviously, they would comment on mp addons
20160317 23:34:13< vultraz> I don't have time for this discussion right now
20160317 23:34:17< Dugi> vultraz: Reviews for SP campaigns mostly from the MP players point of view are not ideal for most players who don't play MP much.
20160317 23:34:27< vultraz> yes, we all know wesnoth has a million things that have to be done
20160317 23:34:38< vultraz> it will take another decade to do half
20160317 23:34:45< Dugi> vultraz: You need to add more slight contrast bumps to Wooden Bridges, I usee.
20160317 23:35:00< vultraz> *(@$&*(@#$&(*@*(
20160317 23:35:02< celticminstrel> vultraz: I don't really see a problem with it, and, if Wesnoth goes on Steam, people who really care about that can use the Steam version anyway.
20160317 23:35:31< vultraz> celticminstrel: we can;t use steamworks features, meaning no cloud storage
20160317 23:36:10< vultraz> Dugi: I add contrast to wooden bridges because it's a simple thing that can be done right now
20160317 23:36:14< celticminstrel> ...oh right.
20160317 23:36:30< vultraz> Dugi: do you even know how much time the dev team has been putting into getting things done the past few months?
20160317 23:36:45< celticminstrel> ...
20160317 23:36:57< Dugi> vultraz: Well, you obviously procrastinate on Wooden Bridges too much.
20160317 23:37:04< celticminstrel> ...
20160317 23:37:07< vultraz> ...
20160317 23:37:09< celticminstrel> ...
20160317 23:37:10< celticminstrel> ...
20160317 23:37:11< celticminstrel> ...
20160317 23:37:13< vultraz> I'm out
20160317 23:37:17< celticminstrel> Guys. Stop this.
20160317 23:37:29< vultraz> Be back later
20160317 23:37:36< celticminstrel> Have fun.
20160317 23:38:51< Dugi> Ehm, sorry, I got too carried away.
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20160317 23:51:27< celticminstrel> Dugi: Do you use formula language much? $(...) in variable substitution or formula= in unit filters.
20160317 23:53:00< celticminstrel> (Or, I guess, even FormulaAI.)
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20160317 23:53:15< Dugi> celticminstrel: Mostly $(...). Why are you asking?
20160317 23:54:33< celticminstrel> Anything more complicated than simple arithmatic? 
20160317 23:54:58 * celticminstrel is asking because I've been hacking at the formula engine lately and am thus interested in people's thoughts on it.
20160317 23:55:15< Dugi> I don't use it much.
20160317 23:56:35< Dugi> I am not coding WML much recently. Lua is usually better, but unfit for handling old codes written in WML.
20160317 23:57:01< Dugi> I am off to bed. Good night.
20160317 23:57:05< celticminstrel> Bye.
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 18 00:00:53 2016