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20160302 13:00:15< DeFender1031> hmm... it seems like x=, y=, directional_x=, and directional_y= in animation frames don't take zoom into account, but halo_x= and halo_y= do. (For example, if i'm zoomed out to 50%, with x=100, the image will still be positioned 100 pixels over (and nowhere near where it should be), but at the same zoom level with halo_x=100, the halo will only be moved over by 50 pixels. The behavior of the image positioning very much seems 
20160302 13:00:16< DeFender1031> like a bug to me.
20160302 13:14:01< zookeeper> quite possible. i doubt anyone ever thinks to test anything with zoom
20160302 13:18:17< zookeeper> a bug report about that (with a simple test animation or something) would be good since we don't exactly have anyone actively working with that stuff right now
20160302 13:34:58< DeFender1031> seems like zoom is a relatively new feature (i don't recall it being in 1.10) and all the cases it affects are not fully thought out
20160302 13:35:47< DeFender1031> for example, [lock_view] doesn't prevent zoom and there's no way to force the zoom level to 100%
20160302 13:35:54< zookeeper> no, zoom's been available almost always. that there's a slider for it under the minimap is a new thing though.
20160302 13:36:02< DeFender1031> hmm
20160302 13:36:08< zookeeper> it's just something that i think very few people actually use
20160302 13:36:13< zookeeper> so it's a bit neglected
20160302 13:36:54< DeFender1031> right. makes sense
20160302 13:38:17< DeFender1031> btw, aside from some bugs affecting one and not the other, and some features only being available for image, what IS the practical difference between image and halo in animation frames? What's the point of having two separate things like that?
20160302 13:40:26< zookeeper> i don't think there's really anything you can do with halo that you couldn't do without them, halos are a historical thing although still very convenient (easier to just use a halo in an existing frame than to create a separate subanimation to display it).
20160302 13:41:24< DeFender1031> hmm
20160302 13:42:26< DeFender1031> so i'd LIKE to go submit a bug report, but I have no idea what in the world it even means to have git duplicate a sheep, let alone what the command would be. WTH is this?!
20160302 13:42:55< zookeeper> oh, gna's quirky captchas? the answer is surely "clone"
20160302 13:44:32< DeFender1031> ah... uhdoy!
20160302 13:44:51< zookeeper> they've mistakenly assumed that everyone who wants to register is a developer who is familiar with a particular version control system :p
20160302 13:45:19< DeFender1031> gnu types tend to be somewhat elitist like that, yeah
20160302 13:45:43< Smar> why gnu doesn’t have its own version control, by the way... :P
20160302 13:46:44< zookeeper> halos were originally just for drawing transparent effects (spells for example) on top of the unit, but you could now do the same without halos if you wanted to, you'd just need to specify some layering and separate frames for drawing it. so, it's just a historical relic but still convenient for simple effects.
20160302 13:47:47< DeFender1031> gotcha
20160302 13:48:39< DeFender1031> would be nice though if halos had the same attributes as image (or the attributes applied equally to halos), like alpha= and halo_alpha=, blend_color= and halo_blend_color=, etc.
20160302 13:49:02< DeFender1031> okay, so now i have an account, but i can't figure out how to actually submit a new bug report
20160302 13:49:21< DeFender1031> ah, found it
20160302 13:49:33< DeFender1031> GNA's design is terrible, btw.
20160302 13:50:38< zookeeper> yeah it's rather inconvenient. at least when you're not familiar with it after having spent 10 years looking at it.
20160302 14:20:45< DeFender1031> well, i finally managed to submit the bug
20160302 14:23:12< DeFender1031> anyway, about zoom, the fact that this bug is even possible to occur indicates to me that the zoom feature is not cleanly implemented
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20160302 14:52:23< zookeeper> DeFender1031, most likely the person who added the x,y offsets and similar just forgot to consider zoom and to run those numbers through some function which adjust them based on zoom level.
20160302 14:53:33< zookeeper> since the halo offsets work right, it might even be a simple fix if one is lucky.
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20160302 14:56:58< DeFender1031> zookeeper, right, though if i were implementing zoom (not knowing anything else about the internals of the engine, mind you), i'd probably do it by just having the engine set a smaller viewport size than it actually is and then magnify the output back to the actual size of the screen, that way it's self-contained rather than forcing every other place in the code which renders anything to account for the zoom level.
20160302 15:00:29< celticminstrel> That is, indeed, the correct way to handle zoom (more or less).
20160302 15:00:42 * celticminstrel has no idea if that's how it was done in Wesnoth.
20160302 15:01:06< celticminstrel> Of course, that's "zoom in".
20160302 15:01:16< zookeeper> well, then you'd end up magnifying all text (labels, damage text, etc) too, which is probably not desirable.
20160302 15:01:39< celticminstrel> That's true.
20160302 15:01:52< zookeeper> and possibly scaling like that would have been too expensive in software in real-time, i dunno.
20160302 15:01:57< celticminstrel> I don't think that would really hurt, but fair enough, I guess.
20160302 15:02:08< celticminstrel> It might be too expensive in software.
20160302 15:04:26< DeFender1031> ah, right. latency issues...
20160302 15:05:07< DeFender1031> not sure i agree about the text... i kind of feel like if you're asking for zoom, zoom is what you'll get.
20160302 15:10:41< DeFender1031> i also think it'd probably be less expensive if https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?24469 were followed...
20160302 15:12:35< celticminstrel> That was a recent discussion.
20160302 15:12:45< celticminstrel> Or, the result of one, rather.
20160302 15:12:58< celticminstrel> So I imagine it'll likely get implemented.
20160302 15:20:29< DeFender1031> i know, i checked the date.
20160302 15:21:12< celticminstrel> Well, the date alone isn't sufficient to conclude that it was a discussion, but fair enough.
20160302 15:29:47< celticminstrel> Oh, I guess the issue mentioned it, okay.
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20160302 17:33:57< DeFender1031> is there a simple way to filter location by the hex which is adjacent to one unit and closest to a second unit? and if not, is there a built-in way to calculate the shortest distance between two given hexes? (if not, i'll either script this manually or pull off another feat of macro engineering like my rectangle macro)
20160302 17:34:17< DeFender1031> there's [find_path] but that's not quite the same thing...
20160302 17:37:15< celticminstrel> I feel like the answer might be "yes", but let me re-read the question...
20160302 17:37:33< celticminstrel> Ah, closest. Hmm.
20160302 17:37:45< celticminstrel> So uh.
20160302 17:37:56< celticminstrel> You are writing a location filter that should match just one location?
20160302 17:39:11< celticminstrel> Ah, it sounds like [find_path] is indeed related - you essentially want the first step in that path, right?
20160302 17:39:33< DeFender1031> well, i'm trying to figure out which hex to move a unit to to make them be next to another without leaving it to the engine to automatically pick one by telling the unit to move to the same space
20160302 17:39:41< DeFender1031> hmmmmmmm
20160302 17:39:47< DeFender1031> reverse it
20160302 17:39:49< DeFender1031> clever
20160302 17:40:11< DeFender1031> though, that won't work if the unit is surrounded by spaces with different movement types...
20160302 17:40:44< celticminstrel> I imagine there must be a built-in way to calculate distance somewhere...
20160302 17:40:48< DeFender1031> meaning, if the closest space to the other guy is shallow water, and the other is flat, and it's a human, it will probably give me the wrong space
20160302 17:40:56< DeFender1031> find_path does calculate distance
20160302 17:41:03< DeFender1031> but it also takes movement into account
20160302 17:41:30< DeFender1031> found_path.hexes is the full distance
20160302 17:41:36< celticminstrel> Hmm, map_location does not have any distance calculator that I can see.
20160302 17:41:40< DeFender1031> but like i said, it takes movement into account.
20160302 17:43:59< celticminstrel> Could you get around that by setting the unit's movement to 100 or something first and restoring it afterwards?
20160302 17:44:16< celticminstrel> That would still not allow paths through terrains the unit can't enter at all, but I would think that's fine.
20160302 17:44:43< zookeeper> i see no indication of whether [find_path] finds the quickest path for the given traveler, but it might.
20160302 17:44:55< zookeeper> worth trying out
20160302 17:45:05< celticminstrel> It probably uses the Lua pathfinding function.
20160302 17:45:10< zookeeper> it does
20160302 17:45:29< celticminstrel> So...
20160302 17:45:41< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, actually, it would. seems the game makes the move cost of forbidden terrains 99 (i discovered this when i was first screwing around and gave a super dragon 5000 mp)
20160302 17:45:44< celticminstrel> "Returns the shortest path from one location to another"
20160302 17:45:54< zookeeper> shortest != quickest
20160302 17:46:00< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20160302 17:46:05< celticminstrel> Seems like it.
20160302 17:46:38< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: I thought they changed that.
20160302 17:47:01< DeFender1031> zookeeper, the indication i see is that it takes turns into account, (there's an allow_multiple_turns attribute), and i can't see how it could know about turns without taking cost into account
20160302 17:47:10< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, maybe in 1.13, i'm on 1.12
20160302 17:47:15< celticminstrel> Not sure.
20160302 17:47:22< celticminstrel> I might also just be imagining things.
20160302 17:47:29< celticminstrel> It happens sometimes.
20160302 17:47:35< zookeeper> what changed was that the magic value of 99 was just macroified
20160302 17:47:52< zookeeper> so that's probably what you're remembering
20160302 17:48:05< celticminstrel> I don't think that's what I'm remembering.
20160302 17:48:15< zookeeper> oh, well, there might have been something else too.
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20160302 17:54:07< DeFender1031> all i know is that i was surprised when my dragon could go through walls until i checked the info and realized that what had been - was showing up as 99
20160302 17:54:40< DeFender1031> though, it would make more sense for 0 to be a special value meaning impassible...
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20160302 17:55:29< DeFender1031> the only other meaning for 0 would be that it's free to move there, but i don't think there's ever anything like that
20160302 17:55:40< celticminstrel> Oh, I think that might be what I was remembering - how it decides whether to print - as the movement cost.
20160302 17:56:02< celticminstrel> But I think that's based on max movement, not current movement.
20160302 17:57:12< celticminstrel> Did you make a custom super-dragon unit, rather than altering its current MP using WML or debug commands?
20160302 17:58:25< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, yeah, basically when i was first following the tutorial (which is woefully incomplete, btw) and just screwing around to get a feel for wml a couple weeks ago, I decided to make a dragon that could go anywhere, do anything, and not be harmed, just for the fun of it.
20160302 17:58:51< celticminstrel> What's incomplete about it? I haven't really looked recently.
20160302 17:58:53< DeFender1031> (I used the fire dragon sprite, and copied over the basic wml to modify, but yeah)
20160302 17:59:48< zookeeper> well, i think it's more plausible to want a unit to be able to have free movement on a terrain than to have >99 but still limited movement :p
20160302 17:59:53< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, lemme find an example, hang on
20160302 18:01:53< DeFender1031> celtic minstrel, half the descriptions here are missing, and a few more have placeholder text: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_for_Complete_Beginners:_Chapter_3
20160302 18:02:08< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, also https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_for_Complete_Beginners:_Chapter_6 is basically all just placeholder text
20160302 18:02:57< DeFender1031> basically, from that point on, the rest of the tutorial is missing huge chunks
20160302 18:03:19< DeFender1031> the next chapter has some "code" which is just a comment describing what code should go there
20160302 18:03:34< DeFender1031> the following talks about array and container variables but has nothing but headings...
20160302 18:06:07< DeFender1031> now, none of this was an issue for me, because i basically just looked and said "okay, that tells me what's possible, i'll just read the real documentation to find out how to actually use it", but for complete beginners who don't have prior experience with codeing, as the intro claims it's capable of teaching, this would be a showstopper
20160302 18:13:18< Ravana_> there is separate page for variables tutorial somewhere... need to go scout peoples signatures to find it
20160302 18:13:34< celticminstrel> Ah, okay.
20160302 18:14:03< celticminstrel> I guess it's still incomplete.
20160302 18:16:09< Ravana_> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/VariablesWML/How_to_use_variables that could be linked
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20160302 18:36:41< DeFender1031> Ravana_, or just included verbatim in the tutorial :P
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20160302 18:58:11< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: If you feel it's good enough to include verbatim, go ahead and do so.
20160302 18:58:34< celticminstrel> (If you don't have an account, poke vultraz.)
20160302 18:59:04< DeFender1031> i don't... i only started getting into wml two weeks ago :P
20160302 18:59:11< DeFender1031> hey vultraz! poke!
20160302 18:59:21< vultraz> hm?
20160302 18:59:58< DeFender1031> celticminstrel thinks i should have a wiki account
20160302 19:00:06< celticminstrel> vultraz: You're a mod on the wiki, so I assume you have the ability to create them?
20160302 19:00:45< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: If you want a different name, you should probably mention that.
20160302 19:01:03< celticminstrel> You need an account to edit by the way, and currently you can't just create your own account.
20160302 19:01:11< celticminstrel> (Because of spam issues.)
20160302 19:01:22< DeFender1031> i got that
20160302 19:01:25< DeFender1031> and yeah, that makes sense
20160302 19:02:05< DeFender1031> especially for a wiki which is basically reference documentation for a project rather than simply a knowledge base project itself
20160302 19:02:17< celticminstrel> Anyone happen to know if this is correct? [event]name=turns over
20160302 19:02:38< DeFender1031> i'm actually surprised you'd even give a newbie like me the ability to edit without first proving himself, but hey.
20160302 19:02:42< celticminstrel> (For an event when the turn count is reached.)
20160302 19:02:57< DeFender1031> and yeah, DeFender1031 is the name i tend to go by on da interwebz
20160302 19:03:20< celticminstrel> I don't think you need any particular qualifications for a wiki account.
20160302 19:03:45< celticminstrel> Apart from being at least mildly interested in Wesnoth (and not a spammer or bot).
20160302 19:04:05< celticminstrel> For a long time account creation was open to anyone.
20160302 19:04:22< DeFender1031> can't promise i'm not a bot, after all, i DID fail that ridiculous captcha earlier :P
20160302 19:04:36< celticminstrel> Hm?
20160302 19:04:54< DeFender1031> ah, you weren't here...
20160302 19:05:56< DeFender1031> sent you the relevant part of the chat log in PM
20160302 19:06:25< DeFender1031> basically, gna is terrible and its captchas are terrible
20160302 19:07:46< celticminstrel> I think even I didn't get that captcha, and I am a programmer familiar with git.
20160302 19:08:14< DeFender1031> exactly.
20160302 19:08:33< celticminstrel> Did you file a bug report about [lock_view] too?
20160302 19:08:41< DeFender1031> because the answer wasn't actually what the question said, it was just a terrible terrible pun
20160302 19:09:03< DeFender1031> about lock_view?
20160302 19:09:04< DeFender1031> oh
20160302 19:09:05< celticminstrel> Clone is also probably one of the least-used commands.
20160302 19:09:10< DeFender1031> you mean that you can still scroll?
20160302 19:09:17< DeFender1031> er
20160302 19:09:19< DeFender1031> still zoom
20160302 19:09:36< celticminstrel> Yeah, that might qualify as a bug.
20160302 19:11:37< DeFender1031> i wasn't sure that was fair to call a bug, since it's not really moving, and it doesn't really help... the point of lock_view seems to be to ensure that the view stary on the action. zooming won't change that, and unless there's some way to also force a certain zoom level from WML, there isn't really a point... but that's a side issue. Seems like a better approach would be a feature request for, say, [lock_zoom] with an optional 
20160302 19:11:39< DeFender1031> "zoom_level" attribute (and obviously associated [unlock_zoom]
20160302 19:12:24< celticminstrel> Hmm. I can see your point.
20160302 19:13:33< celticminstrel> If "lock_view" is only used to make sure everything that needs to be visible remains visible, then it wouldn't be a problem that you still zoom... I wonder if any scenarios use it instead to conceal stuff... probably shouldn't, honestly.
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20160302 19:14:57< DeFender1031> probably... or, if they do, they should probably only do so in conjunction with my theoretical [lock_zoom] command.
20160302 19:15:26< DeFender1031> also, there should probably be a way to store the previous zoom level, or it might be annoying for users who prefer a particular zoom.
20160302 19:16:08< DeFender1031> or maybe that should be automatic... [lock_zoom] can set the zoom level to what the WML author wants, but [inlock_zoom] automatically puts it back to whatever it was when locked...
20160302 19:16:56< DeFender1031> oh yeah, about that captcha, i feel like watson (the computer that beat ken jennings at jeopardy) would have gotten that answer. The irony is not lost on me.
20160302 19:17:19< celticminstrel> Do you think you would need a [lock_zoom] yourself?
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20160302 19:20:29< DeFender1031> not if A: the behavior i described a couple of days ago were implemented (the one where there would be no delay for units being moved offscreen) and B: the bug i mentioned earlier were fixed.
20160302 19:22:40< DeFender1031> so i guess instead of requesting a lock_zoom, i should really be requesting that no delay for offscreen movement feature...
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20160302 19:59:39< DeFender1031> well, that took a while to write up, but i submitted the request
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 03 00:00:43 2016