--- Log opened Tue Mar 08 00:00:51 2016
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20160308 00:24:46< DeFender> celticminstrel, i forgot to mention "map syntax" as another sublanguage :P
20160308 00:24:59< celticminstrel> Oh, yeah. Terrain codes.
20160308 00:26:12< DeFender> which i'm thinking of because i'm wondering if there's a way to replace the entire map mid-scenario with a new one wholesale as the result of some event trigger, or whether to do that i'd have to code all the terrain changes manually.
20160308 00:26:44< DeFender> IIRC, there's something in delfador's memiors that does that... maybe i ought to check there first
20160308 00:26:48< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure there's a way to do this.
20160308 00:27:06< celticminstrel> I know there's a [replace_map] tag, but I think it's in WLP, not core.
20160308 00:27:32< DeFender> WLP?
20160308 00:28:43< celticminstrel> Wesnoth Lua Pack - an addon, though you don't need it installed to actuall use it (you can copy whatever you need to your own addon).
20160308 00:29:52< DeFender> ah
20160308 00:29:56< DeFender> fascinating
20160308 00:30:10< celticminstrel> ^actually
20160308 00:30:47< DeFender> though, I'd imagine that i'd have to figure out what everything does... i set out to learn WML, not Lua :P
20160308 00:32:19< DeFender> grr... i'm looking through the DM scenarios trying to find the one i'm thinking of and can't remember where it is... i'm pretty sure there's a part where he's meditating or something and someone distracts him and then he winds up in the land of the dead, and i'm pretty sure that happens within the same scenario
20160308 00:32:33< DeFender> actually what?
20160308 00:32:47< celticminstrel> I missed the Y when I wrote it before that.
20160308 00:32:57< celticminstrel> Lines starting with ^ are corrections to previous lines.
20160308 00:33:10< celticminstrel> (Some people use * for the same thing.)
20160308 00:33:52< shadowm> replace_map is in core.
20160308 00:34:09< celticminstrel> Oh, is it?
20160308 00:34:16< shadowm> It was originally implemented in C++, even.
20160308 00:34:22< celticminstrel> Still, WLP is a thing that it is good to know about, in my opinion.
20160308 00:34:35< celticminstrel> I must've been thinking of some other map-related tag.
20160308 00:34:46< DeFender> celticminstrel, fascinating. i've never seen ^ used that way before... usually i see it used to say "this is in response to that line up there"
20160308 00:35:39< celticminstrel> I use it like that too sometimes, actually.
20160308 00:35:49< celticminstrel> But in that case, generally not with something after it... I think...
20160308 00:35:55< DeFender> shadowm, ah, yes, i see in the docs now. thanks.
20160308 00:36:04< celticminstrel> Or something. I don't remember.
20160308 00:36:20< DeFender> celticminstrel, don't worry too much about it
20160308 00:36:28< celticminstrel> I mean, sometimes I say stuff like :shadowm: ^" to ping someone to look at the line I just posted...
20160308 00:36:40< celticminstrel> Or "^" on its own to mean something like "I agree"...
20160308 00:36:42< celticminstrel> Whatever.
20160308 00:36:57< celticminstrel> Argh I wrote a colon instead of an opening quote.
20160308 00:37:31< DeFender> i find it fascinating that we have come far enough that there are now different dialects of internet speech
20160308 00:38:09< celticminstrel> I don't know if there's anyone else who does these things the way I do.
20160308 00:38:27< celticminstrel> Most people I've seen use "*" instead of "^" for corrections, but that always seems weird to me, so I don't.
20160308 00:40:46< DeFender> shadowm, just because i'm curious now to see it actually in use, do you remember offhand which of the DM scenarios that is where it happens?
20160308 00:42:09< shadowm> DeFender: The one immediately before the Land of the Dead scenario, surely? :p
20160308 00:42:26< shadowm> Ur Thorodor.
20160308 00:42:29< DeFender> yeah, but from the names it's not clear what that is
20160308 00:42:37< DeFender> and yeah, i found it just before you messaged
20160308 00:42:44< DeFender> thanks
20160308 00:43:07< shadowm> *Dead
20160308 00:43:20< shadowm> Oh wait, I did say Dead. I thought I said Undead.
20160308 00:43:53< DeFender> well, the scenario is actuall called "Houses of the Undead" so....
20160308 00:45:20< DeFender> looking at this reminds me, i notice that sometimes dialogue or healp texts seem to be using some basic html tags. Is there documentation anywhere on what tags are allowed and what contexts allow them?
20160308 00:46:43< shadowm> It's Pango markup: https://developer.gnome.org/pango/unstable/PangoMarkupFormat.html
20160308 00:47:17< shadowm> There isn't a list of contexts that process Pango markup, unfortunately, and there certainly are many that you'd be surprised don't.
20160308 00:47:18< DeFender> and... it seems that i misremembered and that it actually doesn't replace the map in that scenario... heh. well, at least i found out how to anyway.
20160308 00:47:59< shadowm> (The in-game help doesn't use Pango markup, for example. It uses a completely different markup minilanguage specific to the help browser.)
20160308 00:48:22< DeFender> shadowm, i'd probably be willing to edit the wiki to add just such a list as i encounter stuff, but unfortuantely, i still never got vultraz's email from trying to create an account for me
20160308 00:48:47< DeFender> shadowm, so is there documentation on the markup allowed in the help browser?
20160308 00:48:49< shadowm> Keep pestering vultraz until he does.
20160308 00:49:07< shadowm> I don't know if the help browser markup is documented anywhere, actually, but you shouldn't use it anyway.
20160308 00:49:28< DeFender> it's not that he didn't try... it's that the email never actually got sent or came or something
20160308 00:49:29< shadowm> It's specific to the help browser. This, in particular, means that if you try to use it in a unit description, it'll cause problems with the sidebar tooltips.
20160308 00:49:40< DeFender> hmmm...
20160308 00:49:57< DeFender> that's a good point.
20160308 00:50:16< DeFender> though, i'm pretty sure i've actually seen it used in some of the core files i looked through
20160308 00:50:26< DeFender> maybe not for units, but for races?
20160308 00:50:38< DeFender> i dunno, i wouldn't know about it otherwise
20160308 00:50:44< shadowm> Race descriptions are only ever displayed in the help browser, so it's usable there.
20160308 00:51:10< DeFender> so maybe that's where i saw it
20160308 00:51:28< shadowm> Okay, it's documented in the second section of this page: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/HelpWML
20160308 00:52:09< DeFender> hmm...
20160308 00:52:29< DeFender> i seem to recall actually seeing some <ref>-like behavior on unit descriptions in-game
20160308 00:53:05< DeFender> you sure the sidebar stuff isn't smart enough to strip out the tags in that context?
20160308 00:53:33< DeFender> ack, i'm being summoned.
20160308 00:54:03< DeFender> (which makes sense, it's 3AM)
20160308 00:54:22< DeFender> anyway, thanks for the help
20160308 00:54:22< shadowm> It just discards all formatting (including hardcoded Pango markup) IIRC and emits an error to the console log.
20160308 00:54:38< shadowm> Ignore, I mean, not discard.
20160308 01:30:17< vultraz> shadowm, DeFender: I tried creating an account for him/you, I  must have done it wrong
20160308 01:30:26< vultraz> shadowm: what is the proper procedure?
20160308 01:32:49< celticminstrel> vultraz: A good place to start when you're not sure is https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:SpecialPages
20160308 01:33:17< celticminstrel> In this case, I'm guessing Special:CreateAccount is the page you need.
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20160308 02:17:26< shadowm> vultraz: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Preventing_access#Restrict_account_creation
20160308 02:17:33< shadowm> "New users will still be able to be created by sysops, in the following manner:"
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20160308 14:36:52< DeFender> so i'm looking at abilities, and according to the docs, you can create an ability with any name, but unless it's one of the built-in ones, it won't do anything. It also seems that abilities don't actually allow an effect wml subtag (which seems like it might be a good idea). To add a custom ability to a unit, i could just use the dummy ability for the description, and give the unit an object with the desired effect, but i'm not quite 
20160308 14:36:53< DeFender> sure how to do a custom ability for an entire unit type (which is essentially to apply an effect to the unit type as a whole). Is there some way to do so or does ability by some chance actually allow effect tags and either i or the docs just missed it?
20160308 14:37:27< celticminstrel> How would effect tags help? :|
20160308 14:39:35< DeFender> hmmm... maybe effect isn't actually what i would need for that
20160308 14:40:45< celticminstrel> The normal way to handle custom abilities is with events that filter on the ability.
20160308 14:41:20< celticminstrel> The [unit_type] tag can include events, which will be injected into any scenario that a unit of that type appears in.
20160308 14:41:47< DeFender> okay, then let's take two real examples of things that one might want to do with custom abilities: 1. a "darkens" ability which is like illuminates but in reverse and for chaotic units. 2. something that makes a certain attack's damage increase by 50% when the attacking unit is standing in water
20160308 14:41:59< DeFender> hmmmmmm
20160308 14:42:26< celticminstrel> Both #1 and #2 can be done with defined abilities. #1 is [illuminates] while #2 is [damage].
20160308 14:42:50< celticminstrel> And if you want to see how a macro works for a custom event, take a look in data/core/macros/abilities.cfg - the feeding event works this way.
20160308 14:43:04< celticminstrel> You use the rarely-seen append tags.
20160308 14:43:47< celticminstrel> (Note, #1 is an ability while #2 is a weapon special.)
20160308 14:44:03< DeFender> ah, you're correct about [damage], but [illuminates] seems to only affect lawful units as-is
20160308 14:44:09< DeFender> (at least according to the docs)
20160308 14:44:55< DeFender> yes, i'm aware that 1 is an ability and 2 is a weapon special. I purposely picked both.
20160308 14:45:14< celticminstrel> I don't see where the docs say that.
20160308 14:45:35< DeFender> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/AbilitiesWML#Extra_keys_used_by_the_.5Billuminates.5D_ability "value: the percentage bonus to lawful units."
20160308 14:45:42< celticminstrel> Ohhh.
20160308 14:46:50< celticminstrel> It works exactly like lawful_bonus in TimeWML.
20160308 14:47:38< DeFender> ohhhhhh
20160308 14:47:42< DeFender> that makes much more sense
20160308 14:47:53< DeFender> so basically, it's negative for chaotic
20160308 14:48:08< DeFender> (which, if the value given is already negative, would be positive for chaotic)
20160308 14:48:25< DeFender> (and i guess, would be negative the absolute value for liminal?)
20160308 14:48:50< celticminstrel> Liminal is a weird one.
20160308 14:48:57< DeFender> indeed
20160308 14:49:13< DeFender> and there's no inverse
20160308 14:49:42< DeFender> anyway, it ought to be documented better than it is
20160308 14:49:58< celticminstrel> I just copied the description from TimeWML, is that better?
20160308 14:50:07< DeFender> "the percentage bonus to lawful units." implies that it only affects lawful, not that it wor- lemme check...
20160308 14:51:12< celticminstrel> One reason why liminal is weird is that, essentially, the unit's standard damage is actually not what's shown in its stats (eg in Help).
20160308 14:51:13< DeFender> yeah, now it looks good, though you could probably do away with the text which was there at the beginning
20160308 14:51:47< celticminstrel> Its standard damage is the damage with time-of-day penalty applied.
20160308 14:51:54< DeFender> well, not really... liminal isn't ALWAYS apply the mod, they DO get their full damage at dawn and dusk
20160308 14:52:09< celticminstrel> That's exactly why I'm saying this.
20160308 14:52:20< celticminstrel> They only get their full damage at dawn and dusk.
20160308 14:52:26< celticminstrel> (BTW can you see my underline?)
20160308 14:52:30< DeFender> yep
20160308 14:52:35< DeFender> (and yep)
20160308 14:52:54< DeFender> yeah, they basically only get their full power during the weird in-between times.
20160308 14:52:59< celticminstrel> Since they only get their full damage at dawn and dusk, the modded damage is really their "standard" damage.
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20160308 14:53:15< celticminstrel> While dawn and dusk is the time they get a "bonus".
20160308 14:55:13< DeFender> i suppose that's true, although it wouldn't be possible to actually code it that way, as the dawn/dusk thing is just a [time] slot with no mod applied, and it doesn't have enough of a connection to day/night to say "increase liminal by this amount", not to mention that that wouldn't even be possible if the night mod and the day mod were not inverse of each other
20160308 15:05:53< DeFender> it's also interesting that there's no macro for the darkens ability, even though in the images, there IS a halo/darkens-aura.png alongside halo/illuminates-aura.png
20160308 15:07:41< celticminstrel> I know.
20160308 15:12:14< zookeeper> p.s. there's a darkens ability in the test scenario (data/scenario-test.cfg)
20160308 15:19:16< DeFender> ah, i see that
20160308 15:19:24< DeFender> hehehehe: description= "darkens and stuff"
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20160308 17:04:21< DeFender> so there seems to be this mechanism by which units can attack more than once per turn, and the number of attacks they have left, etc, but the interface doesn't seem to have anywhere that it shows that
20160308 17:04:50< DeFender> (not to mention there are no mainline units as far as i can tell that have that set to more than one)
20160308 17:05:39< DeFender> and i'm wondering what the history of the feature is, why it even exists if nothing uses it and there's no way to show it
20160308 17:05:59< DeFender> (though it's still functional, the player just can't see where they're at)
20160308 17:10:59< celticminstrel> I think a few things do use it. Not in mainline though, I guess.
20160308 17:11:49< celticminstrel> I guess showing it on the sidebar somehow would be good.
20160308 17:12:15 * celticminstrel pokes zookeeper and vultraz to see if they have any opinions on that.
20160308 17:13:27< DeFender> seems to me that near mp and xp should be a readout for ap...
20160308 17:13:28< vultraz> ehhh
20160308 17:13:30< vultraz> well
20160308 17:14:26< vultraz> not sure
20160308 17:14:35< vultraz> it's mostly used for either debug purposes or set with an [effect]
20160308 17:15:02< Ravana_> I also have like 5 units that can attack more than once per turn
20160308 17:15:05< DeFender> perhaps the UI should only show it for units where it's more than 1?
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20160308 17:18:33< celticminstrel> I was thinking that too.
20160308 17:19:05< celticminstrel> The UI already shows when it's zero, sort of - though only if the MP are also zero.
20160308 17:19:11< celticminstrel> (This is via orb colour.)
20160308 17:19:19< DeFender> but if it's ever used nt gameplay, it's something which would be very annoying for the user not to see
20160308 17:19:27< DeFender> celticminstrel, indeed.
20160308 17:20:01< celticminstrel> The yellow orb means simply that the unit can do something, either attacking or moving.
20160308 17:20:28< celticminstrel> But if the MP are zero and there's no adjacent enemy units, the orb is red even if it has attacks left.
20160308 17:21:10< celticminstrel> [Mar 08@12:14:36pm] vultraz: it's mostly used for either debug purposes or set with an [effect]
20160308 17:21:11< celticminstrel> Where do you get this from?
20160308 17:21:20 * celticminstrel does, admittedly, use it for debug purposes.
20160308 17:21:29< vultraz> I thought you could set it with effect
20160308 17:21:36< vultraz> since you can easily change it with ;unti
20160308 17:21:39< vultraz> unit
20160308 17:21:49< celticminstrel> You can, as of 1.13.2 I think?
20160308 17:22:27< celticminstrel> (The effect one. :unit works in 1.12.2)
20160308 17:22:32< celticminstrel> ^.x
20160308 17:27:21< janebot_> wesnoth: How much are specific Wesnoth characteristics gotten/inspired by Dungeons and Dragons? (by /u/Zephandrypus) https://reddit.com/r/wesnoth/49jiig
20160308 17:29:59< celticminstrel> Probably very little.
20160308 17:30:10< Ravana_> what the "Custom Command" hotkey should do with 1.13.4?
20160308 17:32:09< celticminstrel> I think that applies to [set_menu_item].
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20160308 19:10:56< zookeeper> if someone needs to use unit.attacks_left and have it show up in the interface, they already can do it in a hacky way. so far i don't think i've ever seen it used like that.
20160308 19:11:49< celticminstrel> A hacky way?
20160308 19:12:20< zookeeper> hacky as in display the counter in the name of a dummy ability or trait
20160308 19:12:48< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160308 19:13:10< celticminstrel> A special case could be made for it akin to the accuracy/parry case.
20160308 19:14:16< zookeeper> it's a very useful attribute, it's just not often used "as-is" to give a unit multiple natural attacks per turn
20160308 19:15:09< celticminstrel> You're talking about unit.attacks_left, I'm thinking of unit.max_attacks.
20160308 19:16:31< zookeeper> oh. i didn't even remember that was a thing.
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20160308 20:11:49< DeFender> celticminstrel, zookeeper, attacks_left and max_attacks are the same feature, akin to how hitpoints and max_hitpoints are the same feature
20160308 20:12:18< celticminstrel> They are related, but you can use attacks_left without using max_attacks.
20160308 20:12:34< zookeeper> of course
20160308 20:12:59< celticminstrel> For example, a weapon special might set attacks_left to 1 after the owning unit kills someone.
20160308 20:13:17< DeFender> hmm... meaning for the duration of the remainder of whatever turn the event is triggered on, you set a unit's attacks_left to higher than their max_attacks. i suppose so.
20160308 20:13:24< DeFender> oooh
20160308 20:13:40< DeFender> like a "you kill, you get a free attack" kinda thing... i like it
20160308 20:15:56< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20160308 20:16:06< celticminstrel> But what you said is also a possibility.
20160308 20:16:42< celticminstrel> I think max_attacks may actually be newer than attacks_left.
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20160308 20:24:52< DeFender> huh. fascinating
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20160308 21:32:35< DeFender> what's with the rails terrain type? it seems out of place for something which out to just be an embellishment, and it also seems as though every unit had "0% -" for their defense and movement on it (including dwarves, whom are mentioned in its description)
20160308 21:33:37< celticminstrel> I think rails takes defense from the underlying terrain.
20160308 21:33:50< celticminstrel> While movement is 1 point for everyone or something?
20160308 21:34:07< celticminstrel> It's a little misleading in the unit descriptions.
20160308 21:35:16< celticminstrel> I think officially it exists so that you can create eg a minecart unit.
20160308 21:38:24< DeFender> huh...
20160308 21:39:04< DeFender> seems to me that it would be better off as an embellishment, and if someone wanted to make a minecart that only runs on rails, they can also make the terrain type themselves
20160308 21:39:31< DeFender> and it seems that rails takes its movement from the base layer also
20160308 21:39:37< DeFender> but it just seems odd is all
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20160308 21:40:40< celticminstrel> Ah, does it? Alright then. I think it changed between 1.12 and 1.13, or maybe it was between 1.10 and 1.12 or something. I distinctly remember at one point its movement was always the same as flat.
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20160308 21:43:41< DeFender> hmm
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 09 00:00:03 2016