--- Log opened Thu Mar 10 00:00:32 2016
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20160310 00:16:01< DeFender> ah, so basically, i'm half right. based on the table i just made to try to understand this better, if active_on is "defense", then apply_to's "self" and "defender" will mean the same thing, and "opponent" and "attacker" will mean the same thing. If active_on is "offense", then "self" and "attacker" will mean the same thing, and "opponent" and "defender" will mean the same thing, and if active_on is "both" then all four values of 
20160310 00:16:03< DeFender> apply_to have distinct meanings.
20160310 00:17:47< celticminstrel> Makes sense.
20160310 00:18:38< celticminstrel> Presumably active_on,apply_to=both,defender is not the same as active_on,apply_to=defense,defender either.
20160310 00:19:05< celticminstrel> The latter is a subset of the former, I think.
20160310 00:20:11< DeFender> based on my chart, the former would mean that if the opponent initiated, you get the special, but if you initiated, the opponent gets the special, and the latter means only you can ever get the special, but only if the opponent initiated
20160310 00:20:47< celticminstrel> I'd say "effect" rather than "special", but yes, that sounds right.
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20160310 03:54:10< PrototypeX29A> hi
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20160310 04:33:29< PrototypeX29A> hi
20160310 04:34:49< PrototypeX29A> i am playing wesnoth (1.10) but I don't hear any music in the game, while the sound is there.  In the preferences music is enabled as well as set to a normal volume
20160310 04:35:08< PrototypeX29A> is there any other places where i could have turned music off (I remember that I sometimes turn it off)
20160310 04:37:29< shadowm> Are you running a Linux distribution?
20160310 04:38:43< PrototypeX29A>  yes, Debian Mint
20160310 04:39:04< shadowm> You mean Linux Mint Debian Edition. :p
20160310 04:39:15< shadowm> You've probably not installed the wesnoth-1.10-music package.
20160310 04:39:43< PrototypeX29A> Debian Mint is easier to type :P
20160310 04:40:25< shadowm> Yes, but very incorrect as it implies LMDE is an official Debian version (it's only a derivative).
20160310 04:40:50< shadowm> Compare Debian wheezy, jessie, etc. which are individual official Debian releases.
20160310 04:40:59< PrototypeX29A> to be honest, I don't really care :)
20160310 04:41:27< PrototypeX29A> but, I think you are right about the music package, installing it now
20160310 04:42:42< PrototypeX29A> I also say "Linux" and not "GNU/Linux" when someone asks me for my OS
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20160310 04:44:31 * PrototypeX29A is an impudent person
20160310 04:45:02< shadowm> That's not a good thing to say, GNU/Linux debacle aside.
20160310 04:45:40< PrototypeX29A> the part about linux?
20160310 04:45:47< shadowm> No, the part about being impudent.
20160310 04:46:41< PrototypeX29A> yeah :)
20160310 04:46:44< shadowm> I say Linux because everyone knows what I mean 92% of the time, not because I'm trying to make a statement or be 'impudent'. Misnaming a singular Linux distribution is a pretty different matter.
20160310 04:47:31< PrototypeX29A> what is the harm?
20160310 04:47:37< shadowm> People who don't watch Pixar films or don't follow Debian would assume this "Debian Mint" is actually a Debian release.
20160310 04:47:55< PrototypeX29A> Pixar?
20160310 04:47:59< PrototypeX29A> now you lost me
20160310 04:48:28< PrototypeX29A> people would assume Debian Mint is a chewing gum
20160310 04:50:55< PrototypeX29A> assuming I never watched a pixar movie, what is the relationship to Debian?
20160310 04:57:17< PrototypeX29A> yes, music is playing now. Thanks a lot
20160310 05:32:29< fendrin> PrototypeX29A: Debian release names are all from characters out of Pixar's "Toy Story" series.
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20160310 06:06:51< PrototypeX29A> i see
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20160310 12:37:19< DeFender> is there a way to filter by terrain type (as it's used in movement and defense definitions) rather than by terrain code? It's pretty annoying if i want to, say, match all shallow water spaces to have to do "terrain=Ww*" only to realize there's also special cases like Khw and Chw which don't match. It would be much easier to be able to do something like "terrain_group=shallow_water"
20160310 12:38:35< DeFender> or, alternately, are there macros somewhere that already have optimal definitions for matching all the specific terrains in core for a given type, like "terrain={TERRAING_GROUP_SHALLOW_WATER}" or something?
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20160310 12:55:21< zookeeper> DeFender, not that i recall
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20160310 12:56:14< DeFender> odd... i would think that to be something rather important
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20160310 13:45:11< DeFender> zookeeper, odd... i would think that to be something rather important
20160310 13:50:38< zookeeper> i guess
20160310 13:50:49< zookeeper> i don't recall ever desperately needing it though
20160310 13:54:00< DeFender> surprising... i can think of all sorts of things i'd do with it
20160310 13:54:43< DeFender> well, whatever. i'm gonna make macros for it since they don't exist. Also some extra groups like "floral", "earthy", etc.
20160310 14:49:40< DeFender> what does - mean in [terrain_type] aliasof=? (For example, Regular Impassable Mountains have "aliasof=-,Mt,Xt")
20160310 14:54:04< zookeeper> treated as either Mt or Xt, depending on which is worse for the unit
20160310 14:54:11< zookeeper> without - it'd be "which is better for the unit"
20160310 14:54:19< zookeeper> such as with bridges
20160310 14:56:09< zookeeper> i guess impassable mountains could just alias to Xt and be done with it.
20160310 15:07:49< DeFender> ahhh
20160310 15:08:57< DeFender> zookeeper, could, but it is technically possible to make units which can walk on impassible, so i guess the idea is that if you're making, say, ghosts that can go through walls but are not good on mountains, you want them to have the worst there
20160310 15:09:10< zookeeper> yeah
20160310 15:19:50< Nobun> imho impassable should not be walked by any units, even if it possible to code a walk... I think that the global idea is that unwalkable can be flyed, impassable not
20160310 15:33:17< DeFender> Nobun, clearly the mainline devs don't entirely agree. In UtBS, there's a scenario where there are, in fact, ghosts that can go through walls.
20160310 15:35:41< Nobun> uhm understood
20160310 15:36:21< DeFender> then again, UtBS tends to screw with pretty much everything standard
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20160310 23:07:19< DeFender> so after spending several hours making charts and macros, i have come to the unfortunate realization that there's actually no way to filter terrains by actual type without accounting for every possible permutation of base terrain to overlay, which would be a nightmare to maintain
20160310 23:08:16< DeFender> originally, i thought i could just account for bases and overlays separately, but then I realized there are some overlays which completely rewrite the terrain type from the base terrain
20160310 23:08:40< DeFender> which means that if a location has those overlays, it's no longer whatever the base type was
20160310 23:08:47< DeFender> sigh...
20160310 23:09:06< zookeeper> no idea what you mean by "overlays which completely rewrite the terrain type from the base terrain"
20160310 23:09:21< zookeeper> oh, like overwrite the defense/movement values?
20160310 23:09:35< DeFender> overlays that don't include "_bas"
20160310 23:09:39< DeFender> yeah
20160310 23:10:10< DeFender> i guess "terrain category" might be a more appropriate phrase?
20160310 23:10:53< DeFender> like, it seems like the grouping of similar terrains is limited to movement, vision, and defense stuff
20160310 23:11:07< DeFender> which is frustrating, because it would be nice to be able to filter by them also
20160310 23:11:36< DeFender> even having some special character for the terrain codes which means "alias of" would help.
20160310 23:12:54< DeFender> like, let's say "@" meant "match to terrain alias instead of own string", then I could just do "@Gt^@_bas, @Gt" to mean "flat"
20160310 23:14:34< zookeeper> i don't know if i should mention something very hacky that i've never thought of before...
20160310 23:15:16< DeFender> why not?
20160310 23:15:54< zookeeper> if you only need to handle core terrains, then: include the core terrain.cfg into a container using [set_variables], and then you can compare the layers of an actual terrain code from the map with the string= values of that big array of [terrain]s to find matches :>
20160310 23:16:33< DeFender> yeah, but that won't get me filters for attack specials or animations...
20160310 23:16:34< zookeeper> you can't do that directly in an SLF of course, but...
20160310 23:16:47< DeFender> that too
20160310 23:16:50< zookeeper> right, you were working with animations. true, wouldn't work there.
20160310 23:16:58< DeFender> and specials.
20160310 23:17:33< zookeeper> well you could store some meta info in the units themselves and [filter_wml] for those...
20160310 23:17:47< zookeeper> but this is getting ridiculously far-fetched for whatever it is you're doing
20160310 23:19:23< DeFender> also frustrating is that while there's the * operator, some of the terrain codes are a little inconsistent. For example, to include all the mountain types, i want to do M*, but volcano, which is not actually a mountain hex, is Mv, which means that unless i specify the subtypes separately, i get a false positive. (And I already tried, "M*, !, Mv" doesn't work, nor does "M*, !, Mv, !")
20160310 23:20:17< DeFender> yeah, i could do that, and set up an event every time a unit is created to shove that metadata in there, but i think at some point i might end up breaking the engine if i try to go down this road
20160310 23:20:35< DeFender> now, i can finish up the macros i was working on, and they'll MOSTLY work
20160310 23:20:54< zookeeper> mostly working is a good starting point, anyway
20160310 23:21:02< DeFender> (meaning, they'll give a false positive for hexes which have an overlay that doesn't include _bas)
20160310 23:21:04< zookeeper> but, i'm off to bed ->
20160310 23:21:11< DeFender> bed is good.
20160310 23:21:21< DeFender> you show that bed who's boss.
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20160310 23:41:18< DeFender> hey vultraz, any word on that wiki account?
20160310 23:41:31< vultraz> still waiting for shadowm to return
20160310 23:42:38< celticminstrel> Uhh.
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20160310 23:43:16< celticminstrel> He posted a link for you awhile ago.
20160310 23:43:35< vultraz> yes
20160310 23:43:42< vultraz> but I need to ask him some questions
20160310 23:43:58< vultraz> there are a few issues
20160310 23:47:10< celticminstrel> What kind of issues?
20160310 23:47:27< celticminstrel> Also, speaking of the wiki, I was wondering if you'd be up for moving some pages around.
20160310 23:47:37< vultraz> he never got the account email, but his username is flagged as used
20160310 23:47:41< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160310 23:47:55< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure there's a way to send a new email or something.
20160310 23:48:10< celticminstrel> Though I dunno if that helps if the email address is wrong.
20160310 23:48:28< vultraz> I tried sending a password reset email,but he never got that either
20160310 23:48:59< celticminstrel> So vultraz, do you think https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML should be split into two pages?
20160310 23:49:19< celticminstrel> One explaining how to include Lua in WML, the other summarizing the Wesnoth Lua API and linking to the more detailed pages.
20160310 23:50:06< vultraz> it could be
20160310 23:50:13< vultraz> but it's not that necessary
20160310 23:51:00< celticminstrel> Okay, in that case, would you mind moving all the LuaWML:xxx pages to LuaWML/xxx instead?
20160310 23:51:07< shadowm> vultraz: You never asked those questions befoer.
20160310 23:51:13< celticminstrel> By doing this they will automatically link back to LuaWML.
20160310 23:51:49-!- wario_ [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160310 23:52:55 * celticminstrel poke vultraz 
20160310 23:54:35< vultraz> sorry, talking in three channels at once
20160310 23:55:21< vultraz> so instead of, say LuaWML:Sides, you want LuaWML/Sides?
20160310 23:55:48< vultraz> I can do that, but not now
20160310 23:56:34< celticminstrel> Yes please.
20160310 23:56:43< celticminstrel> The / has a special meaning in wiki names.
20160310 23:57:02< celticminstrel> You can link from LuaWML to LuaWML/Sides with a [[/Sides]] link, for example.
20160310 23:57:20< celticminstrel> And LuaWML/Sides would show breadcrumbs at the top which link back to LuaWML.
20160310 23:57:34< shadowm> DeFender: Your email provider rejected our email.
20160310 23:58:37< DeFender> how odd
20160310 23:58:43< vultraz> From the looks of it, both the original on the 2nd and the reset email yesterday
20160310 23:58:57< vultraz> Do you have a different address? (PM it if so)
20160310 23:59:21< shadowm> vultraz: I did not say that.
20160310 23:59:37< vultraz> He never got either.
20160310 23:59:43< shadowm> However, I just found a log entry with the same error on March 2.
20160310 23:59:57< celticminstrel> You get log entries for rejected emails? Nice.
--- Log closed Fri Mar 11 00:00:17 2016