--- Log opened Wed Mar 16 00:00:26 2016
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20160316 06:35:33< Kwandulin> Does any non-dev even use the 'core'-option in the main menu? It feels like the menu point doesnt quite fit to the main menu
20160316 06:37:29< zookeeper> yes, it should be hidden until one has actually installed a core
20160316 06:37:31< zookeeper> or something
20160316 06:37:34< ancestral> Kwandulin: Not really. There has been talk of disabling it
20160316 06:38:11< ancestral> I think zookeeper is exactly right
20160316 06:41:03< Kwandulin> Is there another UMC core beside the standard ones?
20160316 06:42:18< Kwandulin> I am not sure if allowing too much modification is desirable anyway, it'd probably lead to some nasty bugs, i imagine
20160316 06:42:21< zookeeper> not as far as i know
20160316 06:42:45< zookeeper> cores are basically for total conversion functionality
20160316 06:43:08< zookeeper> i guess you could do some other forms of modification with them, but... eh
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20160316 08:59:05< vev> we re looking for voluntary devs to help us on idea creation tools - join us on #libreidea - libreidea.org
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20160316 11:40:40< DeFender1031> is there a way to specify that certain units for side 1 who are left on the map not be put to the recall list at the end of a scenario without having to [kill] them before the linger mode?
20160316 11:42:34< zookeeper> nope
20160316 11:43:05< zookeeper> of course you can also kill them at the start of the next scenario, if you don't want them to disappear in linger mode
20160316 11:43:15< zookeeper> or you can create a dummy side to move them to, wtc
20160316 11:43:19< zookeeper> etc, even
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20160316 11:53:14< DeFender1031> i considered the dummy side, but that defeats not removing them for linger, and they'll then show up being on that side... then again, that may be what i want (it's basically a "wait-it-out" scenario and when turns run out, a bunch more people on your side show up and the enemies flee)
20160316 11:53:52< DeFender1031> yeah, i'll just have them be on a separate side
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20160316 12:24:49< Nobun> DeFender1031: don't know if this idea could be helpful: in my own campaign (wich I never published since it is a very slow development) I have a scenario that tells the past of a character
20160316 12:25:07< Nobun> in this scenario you don't want that any unit will be recalled nor saved
20160316 12:25:51< Nobun> to do the magic trick, for that scenario, I could do a simple thing: set the human player to side 4 instead of side1 for that scenario
20160316 12:47:23< DeFender1031> or set filter recallt list to not allow any...
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20160316 13:11:06< DeFender1031> is there a way to make a side who's lost its leader keep its villages?
20160316 13:11:42< celmin|sleep> Good question.
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20160316 13:13:11< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, is there a good answer?
20160316 13:13:30< celticminstrel> I don't know of any way, sorry.
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20160316 13:14:06< DeFender1031> because currently i'm kind of just faking the leader's death and teleporting him to an unobtrusive and inaccessible location on the map, hoping no one actually scrolls over that spot and wonders why his info is suddenly coming up.
20160316 13:14:48< DeFender1031> i also tried making all that side's remaining units "canrecruit=yes", but i can't figure out how to foce them to display with normal ellipses and without the leader overlay.
20160316 13:14:50 * celticminstrel guesses you're not using fog/shroud then.
20160316 13:15:02< DeFender1031> not on this level, no.
20160316 13:15:17< DeFender1031> if i were, it wouldn't be an issue.
20160316 13:15:38< DeFender1031> but i don't want to randomly have the tiniest shroud in one corner for no reason.
20160316 13:15:40< celticminstrel> The game automatically adjusts the ellipse based on leader/hero status.
20160316 13:15:58< DeFender1031> yeah, i know. But I tried setting it manually and it didn't help
20160316 13:16:14< celticminstrel> Like I said, it automatically adjusts it.
20160316 13:16:48< DeFender1031> there seems to be a lot of stuff that you can technically set, but that actually does nothing...
20160316 13:16:56< celticminstrel> I think it's simple to override that by copying core files to your scenario, but I don't know if you can get rid of the overlayy.
20160316 13:17:15< celticminstrel> It's not that you can't set the ellipse.
20160316 13:17:24< celticminstrel> You can definitely set the ellipse.
20160316 13:17:39< celticminstrel> The default is "misc/ellipse", right?
20160316 13:18:10< DeFender1031> yeah
20160316 13:18:15< DeFender1031> hmmmm
20160316 13:18:25< celticminstrel> An ellipse is composed of eight images.
20160316 13:18:28< DeFender1031> are invisible units visible to allies?
20160316 13:18:37< celticminstrel> Not sure.
20160316 13:18:44< DeFender1031> because if not, i can make the leader invisible after "killing him"
20160316 13:18:51< DeFender1031> i should test that.
20160316 13:19:06< celticminstrel> Oh, four images, sorry.
20160316 13:19:28< celticminstrel> When you set the ellipse to "xyz", the images used are xyz-bottom.png, xyz-top.png, xyz-selected-bottom.png, xyz-selected-top.png.
20160316 13:19:45< celticminstrel> That's assuming the unit has a zone of control and is not a leader or hero.
20160316 13:20:23< celticminstrel> If they are a hero or leader, it adjusts the basename to "xyz-hero" or "xyz-leader" respectively.3
20160316 13:20:30< DeFender1031> :/
20160316 13:20:38< celticminstrel> Then, if they have no zone of control, it appends "-nozoc" to the basename.
20160316 13:20:46< DeFender1031> right
20160316 13:21:16< celticminstrel> So, basically, you can force a leader to have a normal ellipse by having files xyz-leader-bottom.png etc which are identical to the normal ellipse, and then setting the ellipse to "xyz".
20160316 13:21:20< DeFender1031> so if i changed the ellipse to some custom one that had the default ellipse for -hero, it'd work, but there's nothing i can do about the overlay is there?
20160316 13:21:34< celticminstrel> I don't know any way to deal with the overlay though.
20160316 13:21:38< DeFender1031> :(
20160316 13:22:10< celticminstrel> For -leader, not -hero, but yeah.
20160316 13:22:23< DeFender1031> yeah, that's what i meant
20160316 13:22:37< celticminstrel> Of course, if you set everyone canrecruit=yes, then they might start behaving like leaders.
20160316 13:22:40< DeFender1031> and yeah, i think invisible units are visible to allies
20160316 13:22:56< DeFender1031> well, that's easy enough to fix by screwing with the ai
20160316 13:23:07< celticminstrel> Is there any reason you can't simply assign one new leader?
20160316 13:23:19< DeFender1031> "leader_ignores_keep=yes"
20160316 13:23:42< celticminstrel> That would be [modify_side][ai].
20160316 13:23:50< DeFender1031> 1. because then there will be a unit which appears as a leader 2. and if that unit dies?
20160316 13:24:28< celticminstrel> I don't think this is likely to work, but there is [side]no-leader=yes
20160316 13:24:41< celticminstrel> I think that's what it is.
20160316 13:24:48< celticminstrel> Oh right, underscores.
20160316 13:24:50< celticminstrel> no_leader
20160316 13:25:23< celticminstrel> I think that only relates to victory conditions though.
20160316 13:25:28< DeFender1031> Basically, i have my guys come across some allies already under attack. Their leader dies in the opening cutscene. You have to get through to their keep (with just the units you start with) and then once you do, you assume command of whatever is left of that side. The reason i want them to keep the villages is because i want it that those villages end up yours when you take command.
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20160316 13:25:37< celticminstrel> Still, you could try it in [modify_side] and see.
20160316 13:25:59< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160316 13:26:13< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20160316 13:26:47< celticminstrel> If it's not necessary for the side to actually receive income from them, you could probably fake it somehow.
20160316 13:26:52< DeFender1031> i suppose i COULD set up events for when villages get captured by that side (or on start) to add a flag of the proper color to them, and remove it if another side capturse them, and keep track of which villages still "belong" to that side... but that's more work.
20160316 13:27:08< celticminstrel> Oh, hmm.
20160316 13:27:28< celticminstrel> That is a lot more work than I had thought.
20160316 13:28:09< DeFender1031> yeah, i don't really care about the income all that much. Besides, if i did, and if i faked it that way, i could TECHNICALLY still give them the income by doing the gold calculation manually.
20160316 13:28:19< celticminstrel> You wouldn't need to use events for when they capture villages - you could [store_locations] when the leader dies to get all the villages... oh, wait, you would need that event after the leader dies, never mind.
20160316 13:28:19< DeFender1031> then what were you thinking?
20160316 13:28:27< DeFender1031> right
20160316 13:28:56< DeFender1031> meaning, when i kill off the leader, i store villages, but then for any time between then and when my guy takes over, i'd need to track ownership changes.
20160316 13:29:15< celticminstrel> I think there's a village overlay...
20160316 13:29:44< celticminstrel> So you could set up a scenario-local [terrain_graphics] rule to draw a flag of that side's colour on village overlay spaces.
20160316 13:30:08< celticminstrel> Use [terrain] to add that to all current villages when the leader dies.
20160316 13:30:25< celticminstrel> Use an event filtering on village overlay to remove it when someone captures their village.
20160316 13:30:25< DeFender1031> "real" villages are already overlays... won't work.
20160316 13:30:34< celticminstrel> Ah, right, I forgot that. :(
20160316 13:30:48< DeFender1031> now, if the game allowed multiple overlays per tile...
20160316 13:31:03< celticminstrel> You could still use a custom overlay that is identical except for the addition of a flag.
20160316 13:31:19< celticminstrel> Or you could try to get it to work somehow with [item].
20160316 13:31:28< DeFender1031> true, but then i'd need one for each type of village on this particular map
20160316 13:31:39< DeFender1031> yeah, [item] is more what i was thinking
20160316 13:32:17< celticminstrel> But I think you need [item]halo= if you want an animation.
20160316 13:32:19< DeFender1031> it's weird that the game doesn't have a way to do this naturally
20160316 13:32:34< DeFender1031> i'm not sure that's true
20160316 13:32:58< celticminstrel> I'm not entirely sure either.
20160316 13:33:06< celticminstrel> It was definitely true at one point.
20160316 13:33:36< DeFender1031> halo would be annoying because then it'd end up on top of the user.
20160316 13:33:41< DeFender1031> er
20160316 13:33:49< DeFender1031> on top of the units*
20160316 13:34:22< celticminstrel> Possibly? I don't know if [item] has a layer key...
20160316 13:34:33< DeFender1031> nope.
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20160316 18:24:27< zookeeper> celticminstrel, so what was the verdict on that right-side portrait in messages thing? was there a regression or not?
20160316 18:25:22< celticminstrel> zookeeper: I'm not sure. It depends on whether certain female mages (possibly a few others) always show on right side in 1.12.
20160316 18:28:08< zookeeper> well, that's quickly tested, no?
20160316 18:28:22< celticminstrel> Probably.
20160316 18:29:26< celticminstrel> Huh... Iron Mauler doesn't have a left-side [portrait] in 1.12.
20160316 18:30:09< celticminstrel> Unlike the female mages which specify a blank left-side [portrait].
20160316 18:34:27< celticminstrel> Silver mage and white mage seem to be the only ones that do it, and only for the female variant. According to the comments, Kitty requested that they always be on the right.
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20160316 18:40:05< celticminstrel> So I just need to find someplace where a female mage speaks.
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20160316 18:41:56< zookeeper> you can do that in a minute
20160316 18:42:05< celticminstrel> How?
20160316 18:42:19< celticminstrel> Oh, I guess I could do it with Lua...
20160316 18:42:27< zookeeper> you don't know WML?
20160316 18:42:28< celticminstrel> The :lua command that is.
20160316 18:42:39< celticminstrel> I didn't want to have to make a scenario just for a minor test.
20160316 18:42:49< zookeeper> take a scenario, change someone's type and gender, and voila
20160316 18:43:05< celticminstrel> Ahh, true.
20160316 18:43:22< zookeeper> don't say you write a new test scenario every time you need to test something :p
20160316 18:43:32< celticminstrel> No, I have a test scenario that I tweak to whatever I need.
20160316 18:43:38< celticminstrel> Okay, female Delfador time.
20160316 18:43:54< zookeeper> well, remember to remove his existing singleunit profile too
20160316 18:44:03< celticminstrel> His what now?
20160316 18:44:16< zookeeper> good heavens
20160316 18:44:30< zookeeper> are you kidding me
20160316 18:45:01< zookeeper> if it says "delfador.png" somewhere on a line, remove it
20160316 18:45:13< celticminstrel> Oh, the profile= line. Right.
20160316 18:45:15< celticminstrel> Of course.
20160316 18:46:19< celticminstrel> Somehow I didn't realize (or forgot) that 1.12 already had the new portraits.
20160316 18:47:02< zookeeper> for some reason i've adopted the first TB scenario as my general-purpose test scenario (when i'm not using the actual test scenario, that is). as a result it's always full of random garbage.
20160316 18:47:32< celticminstrel> Oh, Two Brothers. I couldn't think what TB was. >_>
20160316 18:50:34< celticminstrel> Okay, so the portrait does go to the right.
20160316 18:51:21< celticminstrel> Silver Mage actually seems to want to force it to always be on the left side, not the right side, but for White Mage it does go on the right.
20160316 18:52:34< celticminstrel> For some reason I thought the Elvish Shaman also did that, but apparently it really is just the female White Mage.
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20160316 18:56:12< celticminstrel> Now I've tested in 1.13 too, with the same results...
20160316 18:58:13< celticminstrel> Ah, okay, on 1.13 the string ~RIGHT() is simply included in the profile defined in the unit_type.
20160316 18:58:32< celticminstrel> So forcing Silver Mage to the left won't work, but forcing White Mage to the right will.
20160316 19:00:42< DeFender1031> <celticminstrel> Okay, female Delfador time. <--- best line ever.
20160316 19:01:11< celticminstrel> However, it would default to left anyway, and there's no way to force a portrait right within [message]...
20160316 19:01:38< celticminstrel> Though the whole reason we started looking at this is because you complained about that, I think.
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20160316 19:03:11< celticminstrel> Portraits are only used for [message] and help, right?
20160316 19:03:44< celticminstrel> I think it would be more useful if portrait specification worked more like ellipse specification.
20160316 19:04:39< celticminstrel> The unit_type specifies a base path with no file extension (.png will automatically be appended), and then in [message] you could do something like image=angry and you'd get the angry variant of the portrait.
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20160316 19:06:23< celticminstrel> Or add a new key to [message] for image variations, since it's useful to be able to specify the exact image sometimes.
20160316 19:06:27< celticminstrel> (Like for narration.)
20160316 19:07:20< celticminstrel> On the other hand, that could be done without actually changing the format of profile= in [unit_type] - just search for ".png" and insert the variation string before it.
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20160316 19:40:03< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: I just realized how you could force the image right.
20160316 19:40:10< celticminstrel> image=$unit.profile~RIGHT()
20160316 19:40:30< celticminstrel> That might not work in all contexts.
20160316 19:40:47< celticminstrel> But something similar, maybe.
20160316 19:40:55< DeFender1031> that's what i ended up doing
20160316 19:40:56< celticminstrel> ...or is that what you already did?
20160316 19:40:58< celticminstrel> Ah, okay.
20160316 19:41:15< DeFender1031> but in many contexts, it means an extra store_unit and clear_variable for no reason
20160316 19:41:29< DeFender1031> and i had been hoping for something a little more automatic
20160316 19:41:30< celticminstrel> Right, right.
20160316 19:41:43< DeFender1031> also, apparently it also needs ~FL() when doing so
20160316 19:42:00< celticminstrel> Really? Does ~RIGHT() not automatically mirror it?
20160316 19:42:09< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure it's supposed to, so that could be a bug.
20160316 19:42:11< celticminstrel> zookeeper: ^
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20160316 20:22:13< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, let me double-check to make sure
20160316 20:23:36< DeFender1031> yeah. it didn't. the one i wanted to be on the right was using orcs/transparent/grunt.png and it was totally facing the edge of the screen without ~FL()
20160316 20:23:52< DeFender1031> i also didn't realise that there were several different orc grunt portraits
20160316 20:24:35< DeFender1031> might actually make sense for me to specify a unique one for this particular character anyway :P
20160316 20:25:30< celticminstrel> So then, is the female white mage facing right already?
20160316 20:25:47 * celticminstrel can check in a few minutes.
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20160316 20:28:41< DeFender1031> facing left you mean.
20160316 20:28:50< DeFender1031> portraits put on the right need to face left
20160316 20:28:52< DeFender1031> and yes, she is
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20160316 20:30:45< celticminstrel> Yeah, that.
20160316 20:31:06< DeFender1031> yeah. so yes, she is
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 17 00:00:28 2016