--- Log opened Tue Apr 12 00:00:49 2016
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20160412 06:50:47< Kwandulin> Is there a way to change the colour of the fog of war? I'd like to have a sandstorm instead of fog
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20160412 07:26:56< zookeeper> Kwandulin, none that i can think of
20160412 07:29:48< zookeeper> the closest thing would be to draw your own tiles+transitions on top of wherever there is fog, thereby changing the fog's appearance, but i can't imagine the updating (when fog cover changes) being able to work well
20160412 07:32:16< Kwandulin> using the [time] tag with the colour change might be a good idea
20160412 07:32:35< Kwandulin> does this even affect the fog?
20160412 07:34:10< zookeeper> yes
20160412 07:34:48< zookeeper> so, yeah, might be best to do it with schedules. if you're using core schedule macros, you can just [+time] after each one and change the color.
20160412 07:35:07< zookeeper> and/or add a mask
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20160412 08:11:56< Soliton> shadowm: yes, good work. i just had to install the sdl2 packages and everything went smoothly again.
20160412 08:12:38< shadowm> Hm, I didn't originally install them? I must have forgotten to do that too.
20160412 08:12:47< Soliton> shadowm: we can decide to drop gonzo anytime, i'm not standing in the way.
20160412 08:14:39< shadowm> I definitely won't even try building master/1.13 on gonzo now that it requires C++11 and SDL 2, so it'll have to go sooner or later. I'm not really sure if it's even worth keeping for the 1.12 instance.
20160412 08:15:23< shadowm> (To put things into perspective: "gcc (GCC) 3.4.6 20060404 (Red Hat 3.4.6-11)")
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20160412 08:35:01< Aginor> evening
20160412 08:46:32-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160412 08:47:02< vultraz> forgot to mention before I left:
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20160412 08:48:20< loonycyborg> He forgot to mention that his client gonna quit?
20160412 08:48:22 * shadowm has been thoroughly enlightened by vultraz's wise statement.
20160412 08:48:48< vultraz> if you guys need something tweeted, pm me or shadowm
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20160412 08:49:46< shadowm> Yeah, people, you can do that, but try to not send me too many requests or I'll start posting dog pictures instead.
20160412 08:50:21< shadowm> But I'm sure you won't submit more than one request per year anyway.
20160412 08:50:35< Aginor> I have a twitter account somewhere
20160412 08:50:37< loonycyborg> Post come cat pictures instead please
20160412 08:50:45< zookeeper> i hate twitter with a passion
20160412 08:50:47< loonycyborg> *some
20160412 08:50:51< Aginor> I think I tweeted > 2 years ago last time
20160412 08:51:05< Aginor> zookeeper: they made bootstrap, that's their best product
20160412 08:51:19< shadowm> zookeeper: Is there anything invented in the 2010s/late 2000s you don't? ;)
20160412 08:51:35< zookeeper> shadowm, plenty!
20160412 09:01:35< Aginor> A cat picture says it best: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/49/8f/21/498f2179092ce7cdc0df88bfe83e1701.jpg
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20160412 09:45:54< irker776> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:asio_wesnothd a3fbafcf8533 / src/server/server.cpp: Disable full WML dumps altogether https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a3fbafcf85339b850feb3fe3f3ab042e8b98ad86
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20160412 10:40:41< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#9275 (asio_wesnothd - a3fbafc : loonycyborg): The build has errored.
20160412 10:40:41< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/122471333
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20160412 10:47:41< loonycyborg> utils/travis/mp_test_executor runs fine for me locally
20160412 10:47:50< loonycyborg> why does it deadlock in travis? :/
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20160412 10:57:33< irker776> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:asio_wesnothd 0b7fb8452085 / .travis.yml: Try to move travis mp tests to gcc build https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0b7fb8452085898bd21f94ebfeadf8a96ef5d645
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20160412 17:59:37< Dugi> Hello.
20160412 17:59:56< celticminstrel> Hi.
20160412 18:12:03< Dugi> You guys are most generous. Bestowing the title of Code WML Contributor to me despite having contributed no WML. Or you don't have a code contributor title in reserve?
20160412 18:12:22< celticminstrel> The same title is used for both.
20160412 18:12:41< Dugi> Aha.
20160412 18:12:41< celticminstrel> Don't ask me why. I didn't set that up.
20160412 18:12:51< celticminstrel> (Obviously)
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20160412 18:41:20< Roran> hi
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20160412 18:41:53< celticminstrel> 9_9
20160412 18:43:31< Dugi> Roran? Named after that character?
20160412 18:44:00 * shadowm rollls eyes.
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20160412 19:08:20< celticminstrel> "that character"?
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20160412 19:14:09< Dugi> celticminstrel: I explicitly did not want to tell what character from where, because I was not sure if he wanted to disclose it (not that there's any shame on reading that, but he might have been keeping that as a riddle or something).
20160412 19:17:18< celticminstrel> ...
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20160412 19:19:09< Kwandulin> celticminstrel: some days ago you said that quality shouldnt be the only determining factor wether something gets into mainline or not. what are the other factors?
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20160412 19:20:23< Dugi> Sorry, this unstable browser is increasing my motivation to change to another one.
20160412 19:20:39< shadowm> You could always use a real IRC client.
20160412 19:22:03< Dugi> I have already a large number of windows open all the time, if something can be done in an existing one, I'll head that way. Furthermore, most browsers aren't this unstable.
20160412 19:22:52< shadowm> You're probably the first non-web-dev person I've ever seen saying anything but praise about Chrome.
20160412 19:24:03 * Dugi is not using Chrome
20160412 19:24:23< shadowm> Then you are using a cheap imitation browser.
20160412 19:25:50< shadowm> Oh, I see. Opera.
20160412 19:26:02< Dugi> Chrome is a common vulnerability of half of people. A security hole in Chrome is a danger to a half of internet users, across all platforms. Thus black hat hackers are the most focused on it. Minority browsers' security holes are much less likely to be found or exploited.
20160412 19:26:02< shadowm> The cheap imitation browser.
20160412 19:26:49< shadowm> Yeah I imagine using a browser that uses the same engine as Chrome is going to do much for that theory.
20160412 19:27:19< Dugi> It's based on Chromium an open source reimplementation of Chrome.
20160412 19:27:30< shadowm> Ahahahaha.
20160412 19:27:32< Dugi> Also, I am planning to change to something else.
20160412 19:27:38< shadowm> Chrome uses Chromium's code.
20160412 19:27:59< shadowm> Chromium is not a reimplementation of Chrome. It is Chrome sans branding and other proprietary features added on top.
20160412 19:28:25< shadowm> It's amazing that people still get that wrong in 2016.
20160412 19:28:47< Dugi> I have been displeased with Opera since the version that begun using the Chromium code because it became unstable. The touchscreen support it added isn't worth it.
20160412 19:28:55< Dugi> Well, thanks for telling, I did not know.
20160412 19:29:05< Dugi> I'll switch to Midori or something soon.
20160412 19:29:51< shadowm> Midori uses vanilla WebKit, which was the basis for Chromium back in the day.
20160412 19:32:22< Dugi> Again? I will have to look for one that doesn't.
20160412 19:33:15< shadowm> Good luck finding an engine that doesn't share history  with the big three AND has enough features to get by in the modern Internet. :)
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20160412 19:39:36< Dugi> Darn, really hard to find a non-webkit browser that works natively on Linux. Safari on Wine would be a cool security option...
20160412 19:41:39< Dugi> Seems I'll have to move my goalpost that the open-sourceness of webKit makes it reasonably safe and most holes are in proprietary additions no hackers can review.
20160412 19:44:03< Dugi> I know of one that does not share history with those big three, but it's not very useful. Lynx, the browser for Terminal.
20160412 19:45:56< shadowm> Chrome uses Blink (which is based on WebKit), not vanilla WebKit.
20160412 19:46:08< shadowm> I thought I'd clarify that.
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20160412 19:48:09< shadowm> For obvious reasons that also applies to all Chrome clones in existence, including Opera.
20160412 19:48:42< Dugi> I guess I'll just head for Firefox then.
20160412 19:52:58< loonycyborg> There's also Vivaldi, a true next generation of opera, but it's based on chromium too
20160412 19:55:21< Dugi> I wanted to migrate to that, actually.
20160412 19:56:39< Dugi> Now I found that there is Pale Moon, which is only based on an old fork of Firefox. Guess that could be safe.
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20160412 19:58:14 * shadowm rolls eyes.
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20160412 20:02:39< Aginor> Dugi: something that uses an old version of the firfox rendering engine is most likely not secure
20160412 20:03:00< shadowm> So, here's the thing. If you are going to be paranoid like that it'd do much better if you went and took actual security research into account instead of guessing threat levels by taking completely arbitrary parameters into account.
20160412 20:03:25< Dugi> The number of security holes is less relevant than the knowledge of them and the motivation to find them.
20160412 20:03:36< shadowm> Forks are usually maintained by smaller teams that aren't completely intimate with the code base, and security patches almost all of the time land upstream first.
20160412 20:03:47< shadowm> (Especially when they are contributed by actual security researchers.)
20160412 20:04:48< shadowm> Also, for compatibility reasons, forks and clones will usually use similar or identical or supersets of the UA identification strings that their upstreams would use. This allows anything, even malicious sites, to treat them as such.
20160412 20:04:50< loonycyborg> the best argument against using chrome is that its memory like crazy
20160412 20:05:02< loonycyborg> FF somehow is a lot better about it
20160412 20:05:07< shadowm> So you can't even appeal to security through obscurity.
20160412 20:05:08< Dugi> I fix people's mal/spy/advare filled Chromes too often to believe in its security.
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20160412 20:05:16< loonycyborg> *that it eats memory like crazy
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20160412 20:06:31< Dugi> For memory consumption, there is The Great Suspender, an add-on that partially unloads open websites not seen for some time to save memory, it can help with it quite well.
20160412 20:06:41< shadowm> (Also, competent web coders these days use feature probing instead of UA identification sniffing anyway.)
20160412 20:08:27< loonycyborg> competent web coders are insignificant minority though :P
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20160412 20:10:47< Dugi> I do web stuff through Wt that does all that stuff itself and all I do is build a GUI. I believe that its creators will deal with compatibility issues and such, why to reinvent a wheel.
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20160412 20:11:35< shadowm> That's not what I meant.
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20160412 20:11:48< shadowm> You are thinking back-end, I'm thinking front-end.
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20160412 20:12:08< Dugi> Also, I don't think hackers actually bother looking for bugs in a specific software, just some script looks for common bugs. I would have to be really attractive to them to bother. And for that, security through obscurity works.
20160412 20:12:31< shadowm> You are contradicting yourself in that sentence.
20160412 20:12:37< shadowm> Line.
20160412 20:14:03< shadowm> The payload is delivered to your browser without checking _what_ browser you are running. If the browser's vulnerable to the payload, it's vulnerable to it; otherwise it isn't. That's the most common case.
20160412 20:14:12< zookeeper> Kwandulin, i assume he meant things like fitting in with canon lore, and not being too different gameplay-wise. like, if someone has a campaign in a different universe and subverts all common mechanics for completely different kind of gameplay, then it might be of great quality but not suited for mainline.
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20160412 20:14:36< shadowm> OR if there is a check for the browser's features or identification, your fork/clone will identify itself pretty much the same as the real thing, getting the same payload.
20160412 20:14:59< Dugi> shadowm: I think that there are not many payloads prepared or even researched for rare browsers.
20160412 20:15:06< shadowm> Dude.
20160412 20:15:12< shadowm> Read what I said again.
20160412 20:15:25< shadowm> It doesn't matter if you are running a "rare" browser if it has the same API.
20160412 20:15:44< shadowm> And if you are going to browse the web? You'll find that most browsers do.
20160412 20:15:57< Dugi> If the API is the same, it does not mean that the underlying holes are the same.
20160412 20:16:17< shadowm> They tend to be because, again, most browsers are related to the big three.
20160412 20:16:59< shadowm> (WebKit/Blink, Gecko, and whatever Microsoft's calling its engine which I obviously don't care about.)
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20160412 20:19:03< Dugi> They are related, but the separation was often many years ago, and that means that the differences grew.
20160412 20:19:25< shadowm> And you think vulnerabilities are exclusively generated in new code?
20160412 20:19:51< shadowm> It's not uncommon for the worst security bugs to come from ancient code.
20160412 20:20:34< celticminstrel> Uh, Dugi, Safari is also WebKit. It's the first WebKit browser. If you're trying to avoid WebKit, I think Firefox is your only decent option.
20160412 20:21:16< Dugi> shadowm: Yeah, like heartbleed. But they are almost impossible to avoid.
20160412 20:21:25< celticminstrel> Kwandulin: Roughly speaking, consideration of whether they fit into Wesnoth canon history should be included when determining whether to mainline a new campaign.
20160412 20:21:40< Dugi> celticminstrel: Well, there is Pale Moon, an old fork of Firefox, could be safer.
20160412 20:21:50< celticminstrel> I highly doubt that.
20160412 20:22:28< celticminstrel> For the record, I dislike Chrome because during the time I used it, it seemed like it just kept removing features and getting more and more "simple" while not addressing one or two major usability issues that were affecting me.
20160412 20:22:39< Aginor> it simply means theres a bunch of publically known exploits for it
20160412 20:22:44< celticminstrel> Admittedly, Firefox is showing the same trend.
20160412 20:22:54< shadowm> Chrome has always been about treating users as if they were dumb as a rock.
20160412 20:23:01< shadowm> And glitching to hell on X11.
20160412 20:23:23< celticminstrel> But less so, plus its addons system seems possibly better, which can make up for that.
20160412 20:24:23< shadowm> Well, the arrival of Electrolysis on the production channel is supposed to break compatibility with quite a huge number of add-ons I believe.
20160412 20:24:32< Dugi> celticminstrel: That is actually why I never got used to it, even before it became so widespread. I saw that it was fast, but its limited features were detracting. Then came the realisation that it was storing passwords on disk without encryption and it lost all its credibility to me. Also, on Windows, it has a custom keyboard layout, that is pretty lame.
20160412 20:24:48< celticminstrel> shadowm: That sounds highly ominous... :|
20160412 20:25:07< shadowm> I don't know when that will happen, though.
20160412 20:25:17< Aginor> celticminstrel: I commented on PR 646
20160412 20:25:27< celticminstrel> Chrome was using Apple Keychain to store its passwords.
20160412 20:25:34< shadowm> I use Firefox beta and it doesn't seem like they intend to enable it any time soon.
20160412 20:25:39< Aginor> I noticed that the person added him/herself into the coders section, not misc
20160412 20:25:55< Aginor> do we make him/her change that?
20160412 20:26:08< celticminstrel> Why on earth would it do something worse on Windows or Linux?
20160412 20:26:16< celticminstrel> Aginor: Yeah, we should.
20160412 20:26:21< Aginor> shadowm: maybe you have an opinion to offer on where a new contributor should put his/herself into the credits?
20160412 20:26:35< shadowm> Aginor: Miscellaneous Contributors, follow alphabetical order.
20160412 20:26:47< shadowm> (By first character in the string, not by nickname.)
20160412 20:26:54< shadowm> (Nor last name.)
20160412 20:26:57< celticminstrel> I think that's where both Dugi and rcorre put themselves, right?
20160412 20:27:17< shadowm> That's not even my opinion, in fact, it's a rule we've always had. ;)
20160412 20:27:40< Dugi> celticminstrel: It did not have it before. Makes me wonder how many other such errors are there.
20160412 20:27:52< celticminstrel> Dugi: Huh?
20160412 20:28:24< shadowm> celticminstrel: From an older bug report about Chrome flashing when the window is resized on X11, one of the devs specifically said that addressing the bug would be such a PITA on X11 that they might as well not fix it (and indeed they still haven't).
20160412 20:29:02< shadowm> And that's why I don't use Chrome.
20160412 20:29:09 * Aginor knows all about PITA related to window resizing
20160412 20:29:29< shadowm> Okay, that's half of the reason I don't use Chrome. The other half is that I just don't trust Google anymore.
20160412 20:29:56< Dugi> celticminstrel: I was talking about the problem of not encrypting stored data.
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20160412 20:33:01< Dugi> How about making a browser that shares no code with other browsers? It does not have to be particularly safe, but rare enough so that nobody would bother making payloads for it. Once it becomes more known, a new one will be made.
20160412 20:33:23< shadowm> Sure, you can be that hero.
20160412 20:34:08< shadowm> I'm sure it will prove a very fruitful and definitely not frustrating experience.
20160412 20:34:19< Aginor> easy too
20160412 20:34:40< Dugi> I wish I had twenty years of extra time.
20160412 20:34:43< shadowm> Oh, I know, you should probably make a Kickstarter for it.
20160412 20:34:54< shadowm> That should speed things up.
20160412 20:35:08< Dugi> There're better things I'd prefer to invest my time into, unfortunately.
20160412 20:35:22< Dugi> I was not serious.
20160412 20:36:04< celticminstrel> I often contemplate these sorts of projects.
20160412 20:36:11< celticminstrel> It never gets past the contemplation stage.
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20160412 20:38:23< Dugi> For me too.
20160412 20:39:14< Dugi> If I was 10 times as efficient or could loop in time without getting into the future, I would actually realise them.
20160412 20:47:29< celticminstrel> BTW Dugi, you might want to consider documenting your CFG generator on the wiki.
20160412 20:47:41< Dugi> celticminstrel: I have done that a few hours ago.
20160412 20:47:49< celticminstrel> Ah, okay.
20160412 20:47:55< celticminstrel> I should've checked before asking.
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20160412 20:52:02< celticminstrel> I wouldn't call these <<French quotation marks>> - the guillemots are smaller, «like this»... I guess it's not unreasonable to call them that though.
20160412 20:56:13< Dugi> So how should I call them? They are the closest to guillemots (but they are not), but since that's a weird word many people will have difficulties to spell, I decided to write a more rememberable name of it.
20160412 20:56:29< Dugi> If you make up something better, feel free to edit it.
20160412 20:56:58 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20160412 20:57:19< celticminstrel> I don't have any ideas right now, so I won't edit it.
20160412 20:57:29< shadowm> Do you mean the verbatim string quotes?
20160412 20:57:35< celticminstrel> Yes.
20160412 20:58:13< shadowm> Does wmlxgettext accept those as translatable strings?
20160412 20:58:30< celticminstrel> Good question.
20160412 21:00:00< celticminstrel> It doesn't seem to.
20160412 21:00:28< shadowm> Welp.
20160412 21:01:10< shadowm> And yes, a literal enclosed in << >> is called a "verbatim string" in code, so I'd say "verbatim string quotes" is the best name.
20160412 21:01:41< shadowm> I intended to add that to PreprocessorRef back in the day but never did.
20160412 21:02:00< celticminstrel> I have no idea how to verify that the parser itself accepts them as translatable strings, but I would guess that since it didn't produce errors for Dugi, it probably does.
20160412 21:02:19< shadowm> The aprser will most certainly do, because it gets double quote string literals instead.
20160412 21:02:42< celticminstrel> ...huh?
20160412 21:03:09< celticminstrel> Oh, the tokenizer translates them to the same kind of token as double-quoted strings?
20160412 21:04:30< shadowm> I don't know who does but someone does.
20160412 21:04:36< shadowm> You can check yourself with wesnoth -p.
20160412 21:05:23< shadowm> (e.g. create a file.cfg containing `foo="""bar"""`, run `wesnoth -p file.cfg /path/to/outputdir`, see the resulting file.cfg in the output dir.)
20160412 21:07:23< celticminstrel> Dugi: Are you any good with Perl?
20160412 21:07:43< shadowm> Okay, yes, it's the tokenizer that treats them as the same.
20160412 21:08:00< Dugi> celticminstrel: Not at all.
20160412 21:08:13< celticminstrel> Okay, I guess I'll try to see if I can add that capability later...
20160412 21:08:48< celticminstrel> I wonder if it's worth switching to Nobun's Python wmlxgettext...
20160412 21:09:11< shadowm> I assumed that was the intention?
20160412 21:09:23< shadowm> Since the actual release technician seemed interested in it.
20160412 21:09:32< celticminstrel> You mean loonycyborg?
20160412 21:10:06< shadowm> I can't think of anyone else who would qualify.
20160412 21:10:23< celticminstrel> That's true, he did seem interested in it.
20160412 21:10:30< loonycyborg> yup, I'll for sure consider it
20160412 21:10:45< celticminstrel> Does it handle WML strings of the form _<<...>>?
20160412 21:11:03< celticminstrel> If we intend to switch, maybe it's not worth updating the Perl wmlxgettext.
20160412 21:11:23< shadowm> The fact that the built-in parser does is probably just a convenient coincidence.
20160412 21:11:31< celticminstrel> Maybe.
20160412 21:11:52< shadowm> By which I mean that as far as the tokenizer cares, a string is a string. There are no translatable strings.
20160412 21:11:59< shadowm> The underscore is treated as a token of its own.
20160412 21:12:04< celticminstrel> Considering verbatim strings were probably added specifically for Lua, actually, it probably is indeed no more than a convenient coincidence.
20160412 21:12:53< celticminstrel> Ironicaly, with Lua 5.3, the verbatim strings would no longer be able to encapsulate arbitrary Lua code.
20160412 21:13:11< celticminstrel> ^-ally
20160412 21:13:31< shadowm> That's not necessarily a problem.
20160412 21:13:45< celticminstrel> I suppose not.
20160412 21:14:17< shadowm> I can't imagine the average Wesnoth UMC coder making use of bitwise operations, and those who might do can get by with wesnoth.dofile/require.
20160412 21:14:25< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20160412 21:16:20< loonycyborg> here's doc for it: http://wmlxgettext-unoff.readthedocs.org/en/latest/enduser/index.html
20160412 21:16:38< loonycyborg> don't see those _<< >> string there
20160412 21:16:49< loonycyborg> maybe I'm not paying enough attention though :P
20160412 21:18:23< celticminstrel> The documentation isn't all that great, either.
20160412 21:18:30< celticminstrel> I'll have to ask him when he next shows up.
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20160412 21:38:15< shadowm>   scons: Configure: "build/sconf_temp/conftest_31.o" is up to date.
20160412 21:38:19< shadowm>   g++: error: build/sconf_temp/conftest_31.o: No such file or directory
20160412 21:38:27< shadowm> Lawl.
20160412 21:38:38< celticminstrel> Uh what?
20160412 21:39:08< loonycyborg> hmm never saw that yet..
20160412 21:39:13< shadowm> Watching the stupidity that arises at times when you don't feed --config=force to SCons after changing... whatever it was I changed.
20160412 21:39:57< shadowm> Perhaps it was because I chained -c with a compiler command line-altering option (sdldir='').
20160412 21:40:12< shadowm> Who cares, it's gone now.
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20160412 21:53:01< shadowm> So, what were you people thinking when you chose the new UI font? Just curious.
20160412 21:56:27-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20160412 21:56:49< celticminstrel> I think you'll have to ask ancestral.
20160412 21:58:18< shadowm> Hm, I assumed it was more of a group effort.
20160412 21:58:59< celticminstrel> It was mostly vultraz and ancestral. Maybe other people contributed too, but I didn't really put much input into the discussion.
20160412 21:59:22< celticminstrel> Because I didn't reallt have a strong opinion.
20160412 21:59:25< celticminstrel> ^really
20160412 21:59:35< Dugi> Bye. It's late, I am tired.
20160412 21:59:38< shadowm> It's really unfortunate that no-one has strong opinions anymore. ;)
20160412 21:59:46-!- Dugi [93fbd396@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.251.211.150] has quit []
20160412 21:59:49< celticminstrel> I do have some strong opinions though. :P
20160412 21:59:54< celticminstrel> Like on the loading screen.
20160412 22:00:01< Aginor> I was vaguely negative to all options, but I've mostly been staying out of all those discussions
20160412 22:00:06< celticminstrel> Or the idea of "wesnoth 2" that people keep bringing up.
20160412 22:00:23< shadowm> Staying out of discussions doesn't help.
20160412 22:00:33< shadowm> Insert reference to American politics here.
20160412 22:00:52< Aginor> no, I know
20160412 22:01:06< Aginor> I'm just limited in how much time I have so I try to manage it carefully
20160412 22:01:29< shadowm> I just don't think this was a very well-thought move or that the current choice is an improvement over the status quo.
20160412 22:01:29< Aginor> arguing on the internet for n hours a week, where n > 10 doesn't help
20160412 22:01:38< shadowm> Like "change for the sake of change", etc.
20160412 22:02:05< shadowm> Maybe more more importantly, perhaps you people should rethink the existing one-size-fits-all model.
20160412 22:02:24< zookeeper> having strong opinions is incredibly tiring because mine are almost always negative and constantly voicing those tends to have a negative effect on the general atmosphere, and to get people to not do things i don't want them to do would require me to use outright abusive language or engage in a commit war
20160412 22:03:01< celticminstrel> Well, to me it really doesn't make much difference what font is used.
20160412 22:03:04< shadowm> It results in a more one-sided commit war regardless.
20160412 22:03:25< shadowm> "i have the code and intention, i get to decide".
20160412 22:03:29< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure I've tried to pay attention to zookeeper's opinions most of the time.
20160412 22:04:06< shadowm> Then again, in the end it's the users who should speak up against or in favor of this kind of thing.
20160412 22:04:33< shadowm> As in the people who actually play the game and produce content for it. :p
20160412 22:04:46< celticminstrel> The new font? Well, if it proves unpopular, I don't think it would be hard to revert.
20160412 22:05:08< shadowm> Yeah, probably not, but it will leave the authors of the move heartbroken I imagine.
20160412 22:05:27< celticminstrel> It's a change that seems meaningless to me, but it seemed to mean something to ancestral, so I didn't see the harm in letting it pass.
20160412 22:05:48< shadowm> It's happened before that someone makes a controversial change, the community demands it to be reverted, and they leave the project afterwards.
20160412 22:05:59< celticminstrel> I do disagree with the general trend to larger fonts, but that's why I changed the scale slider to go down to 80%.
20160412 22:06:03< shadowm> Like, twice or thrice, with different actors.
20160412 22:06:12< celticminstrel> I would be surprised if this change would be that controversial.
20160412 22:07:21< shadowm> I guess it looks slightly more passable at 90%, but the glyph shapes still have that "in your face" feeling about them.
20160412 22:07:52< shadowm> Unfortunately, since I'm not a typography snob I can't really tell exactly what it is that bugs me.
20160412 22:08:20< celticminstrel> I don't think ancestral would be heartbroken if the community hated Lato; they'd probably just try some other font.
20160412 22:08:25< celticminstrel> ^ancestral and vultraz
20160412 22:08:36< shadowm> Eh, maybe.
20160412 22:08:47< shadowm> 07:07:59 <shadowm> Sorry dude but I don't like the new font. I hate it, in fact.
20160412 22:08:53< shadowm> 07:11:51 <vultraz> I am genuinely upset right now
20160412 22:09:06< celticminstrel> I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.
20160412 22:09:08< shadowm> Have yet to check with the other half of the duo in charge.
20160412 22:09:13< shadowm> No, those are actual quotes.
20160412 22:09:27< celticminstrel> Yeah, I know. I mean I can't tell if vultraz was being sarcastic in that quote.
20160412 22:09:37< celticminstrel> It's a line that sounds like it could be sarcastic, or could be serious.
20160412 22:09:41< shadowm> I rather doubt it.
20160412 22:09:54< shadowm> 07:11:34 <vultraz> ;_;
20160412 22:10:34< celticminstrel> I suppose that slightly tips the scales away from sarcasm.
20160412 22:11:51< shadowm> I tend to think it works well in headings and prose, but for UI it's... uh...
20160412 22:12:15< shadowm> I also tried applying it to Wesmere and didn't like the results.
20160412 22:12:27< celticminstrel> I wonder if it's possible to drop Pango and Cairo...
20160412 22:12:39< shadowm> Why would you do that.
20160412 22:13:14< shadowm> Unless you are either: a) going to implement your own Pango markup parser; b) willing to break 90% of add-ons right now.
20160412 22:13:36< celticminstrel> They're annoying dependencies. They bring in GLib or whatever, for example. They seem to be causing the problems with fonts in OSX. I realize there's probably good reasons to keep them, and those reasons very likely outweigh any reasons to drop them, but...
20160412 22:14:20< celticminstrel> Implementing a Pango markup parser probably wouldn't be too hard, but honestly, Pango markup is itself utterly terrible.
20160412 22:14:32< Aginor> let's focus on dropping SDL_ttf first instead
20160412 22:14:37< celticminstrel> Yeah, sure.
20160412 22:15:48 * celticminstrel suspects one of the reasons not to drop cairo is related to RTL text.
20160412 22:16:07< celticminstrel> I forget whether it was cairo or pango or both that depend on GLib.
20160412 22:16:56< celticminstrel> Obviously we can't drop cairo or pango unless a good alternative is available, too...
20160412 22:20:39< Aginor> honestly, I don't think we're in a position for grand projects
20160412 22:20:45-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160412 22:20:55< Aginor> we have a bunch of half-arsed, unfinished stuff that's holding us back at the moment
20160412 22:20:59< celticminstrel> I don't think we can drop cairo or pango.
20160412 22:21:05< celticminstrel> That doesn't prevent me from wanting to.
20160412 22:21:13< Aginor> we need to finish those things first, then we can start on new things
20160412 22:21:20< Aginor> celticminstrel: that's fair enough :)
20160412 22:22:11< shadowm> Pango was introduced partly to address existing shortcomings with RTL rendering.
20160412 22:22:39< shadowm> Whether that goal was accomplished or not is anyone's guess, though.
20160412 22:23:07< celticminstrel> I seem to recall that the Arabic translation is woefully incomplete, too.
20160412 22:23:18< shadowm> Eaxctly.
20160412 22:23:37< celticminstrel> Not sure what other significant languages need RTL. Maybe Chinese or something Indic.
20160412 22:24:24< shadowm> I think Chinese is written LTR in horizontal layouts just like Japanese.
20160412 22:24:44< celticminstrel> So neither of those require RTL then...
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20160412 22:24:52< shadowm> Hebrew is an RTL language.
20160412 22:24:54< celticminstrel> (Assuming you're right.)
20160412 22:24:59< celticminstrel> Is there even a Hebrew translation?
20160412 22:25:22< shadowm> Yes, same status as Arabic, except it's a bit higher up the list.
20160412 22:25:32< celticminstrel> Huh, okay.
20160412 22:27:23< shadowm> The fact that some of the UI doesn't support them (the SDL_ttf paths rely on the FriBiDi library, which isn't even used in the official Windows builds I think) doesn't help.
20160412 22:28:02< shadowm> "oh id like to translate this game to my language-- wait the few bits that are translated dont work correctly at all"
20160412 22:28:08< shadowm> "i suddenly lost interest in this game"
20160412 22:31:03< loonycyborg> I doubt lack of proper ltr support will be cause of loss of interest
20160412 22:31:13< celticminstrel> ^rtl
20160412 22:31:23< loonycyborg> because they should be used to it
20160412 22:32:02< shadowm> It doesn't help regardless.
20160412 22:32:09< loonycyborg> like even our support for it in half of dialogs would impress them :P
20160412 22:33:03< shadowm> Incidentally, who committed the new cursors?
20160412 22:33:18< celticminstrel> vultraz, why?
20160412 22:33:42< shadowm> They look so...
20160412 22:34:00< shadowm> Big.
20160412 22:34:11< celticminstrel> I think that was the point.
20160412 22:34:16< shadowm> And colorful.
20160412 22:34:31< celticminstrel> Is this a complaint or just an observation?
20160412 22:34:44< shadowm> Why not both? :p
20160412 22:34:55< celticminstrel> So it's both?
20160412 22:35:04< shadowm> Maybe?
20160412 22:35:12< celticminstrel> So it's not both?
20160412 22:35:22< shadowm> Potentially?
20160412 22:35:31< celticminstrel> ...right.
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20160412 22:36:45< shadowm> I guess it's also intentional that their palette is so distracting as well.
20160412 22:37:42< loonycyborg> they're so large that when moving around they trigger shadowm's motion sickness :P
20160412 22:38:00< celticminstrel> Apparently they were made by LordBob.
20160412 22:38:11< celticminstrel> According to the commit message.
20160412 22:38:27< celticminstrel> I haven't seen them in-game yet, but they looked nice enough in the diff...
20160412 22:38:58< shadowm> loonycyborg: I didn't know poking fun at people's health quirks was a thing we did now.
20160412 22:39:14< shadowm> But no, they are just plain distracting.
20160412 22:40:41< shadowm> Oh well, there's always the option to switch back to the good old B&W cursors.
20160412 22:40:50< celticminstrel> :/
20160412 22:41:03< shadowm> Why the slanted face?
20160412 22:41:04< celticminstrel> This is true, I guess.
20160412 22:41:12< shadowm> It's an option in Preferences → Advanced. :p
20160412 22:41:19< shadowm> (Cue vultraz removing that too just to spite me.)
20160412 22:41:31< celticminstrel> I kinda wanted to remove the B&W cursors eventually, but I guess this may not be such a good idea.
20160412 22:41:42< shadowm> Oh you.
20160412 22:42:04< celticminstrel> What?
20160412 22:42:15< shadowm> Maybe you can do that when there isn't at least one player running on AMD hardware experiencing glitches with color cursors on.
20160412 22:42:30< shadowm> (You're a dev, so I assume you've seen the post.)
20160412 22:42:36< celticminstrel> Is that still a thing?
20160412 22:42:53< celticminstrel> I don't even remember whether or not I've seen the post, but I've definitely heard about it at least.
20160412 22:42:53< Aginor> the B&W cursors will stay. We don't have a workaround for an upstream bug for colour cursours in linux with AMD cards
20160412 22:43:06< celticminstrel> Ah, so there's an SDL2 bug.
20160412 22:43:11 * Aginor uses AMD hardware
20160412 22:43:12< shadowm> celticminstrel: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=595074#p595074
20160412 22:43:20< Aginor> celticminstrel: no, it's a AMD bug
20160412 22:43:27< shadowm> Devs should pay attention to the release discussion topic. Always.
20160412 22:43:54< shadowm> Unless you want to perpetuate the "devs don't care about their users' opinions" perception that a couple of people are spreading around the userbase.
20160412 22:46:04< celticminstrel> Ah, I do remember seeing that post, I think.
20160412 22:49:09< celticminstrel> Oh, reading through this thread reminds me of something.
20160412 22:49:38< celticminstrel> Aginor: Have you seen the people complaining that fullscreen is now fixed to current desktop resolution? Should we change that?
20160412 22:50:46< zookeeper> that _wasn't_ fixed? good grief.
20160412 22:51:11< celticminstrel> I think it was a conscious (but arbitrary) decision during the move to SDL2.
20160412 22:51:50< shadowm> I thought it was because of an upstream bug or quirk.
20160412 22:52:02< Aginor> zookeeper: there was never any concensus about it, so no. Having dropped SDL1 we can now easily support both
20160412 22:52:26< zookeeper> i seem to recall that it was very decisively and vocally opposed here.
20160412 22:53:00 * Aginor shrugs
20160412 22:53:04< Aginor> let's fix it then
20160412 22:54:26< Aginor> or you can do it yourself if you don't want to wait for me to have time/remember, change all instances of SDL_WINDOW_FULLSCREN to SDL_FULLSCREEN or whatever the flags are called
20160412 22:55:13< celticminstrel> I thought it was SDL_FULLSCREEN_DESKTOP -> SDL_FULLSCREEN, but I could be wrong.
20160412 22:55:27< celticminstrel> Might also need to edit the preferences dialog.
20160412 22:55:53< celticminstrel> (I seem to recall that it disables the resolution combobox if fullscreen is enabled.)
20160412 22:57:22< Aginor> best thing might be to raise a bug for it
20160412 22:57:30< Aginor> zookeeper: would you mind doing that?
20160412 22:57:46< Aginor> maybe also link to it from the forums so they know it'll be fixed in next release
20160412 23:00:54< celticminstrel> Was the desert mountain terrain code fixed?
20160412 23:01:04< zookeeper> yes
20160412 23:01:56< zookeeper> Aginor, well if you really want a todo note bug report, then i guess i can submit one.
20160412 23:06:01< Aginor> zookeeper: I am most likely to forget otherwise
20160412 23:06:21< Aginor> when I have time to look at this in a month or whenever it may be
20160412 23:06:27< Aginor> I will not remember
20160412 23:07:01< zookeeper> i wonder if it _would_ make sense to only allow resolutions of the same aspect ratio, though.
20160412 23:07:08< zookeeper> all right
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20160412 23:13:09< zookeeper> Aginor, https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?24583
20160412 23:13:42< zookeeper> not that i know/recall where people have been complaining about it
20160412 23:16:53< celticminstrel> I just mentioned it in the release thread.
20160412 23:17:04< celticminstrel> Which contains at least two posts complaining about it.
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20160412 23:36:24< Aginor> ok
20160412 23:36:41< Aginor> I vaguely resent you assigning it directly to me though :D
20160412 23:36:47< celticminstrel> Pfft.
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20160412 23:42:07< zookeeper> well if it's a reminder for you, that seemed appropriate... :p
--- Log closed Wed Apr 13 00:00:51 2016