--- Log opened Tue Apr 19 00:00:10 2016
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20160419 00:47:42< shadowm> ...
20160419 00:48:42< celticminstrel> What's the ellipsis for? Are you just shocked that no-one replied, or is it something unrelated to that?
20160419 00:49:53< shadowm> I am shocked at the reply.
20160419 00:50:52< celticminstrel> I don't think even any of the official devs (eg vultraz or gfgtdf) build the tests, so it's pretty much true.
20160419 00:51:17< celticminstrel> Not an ideal situation, sure.
20160419 00:51:24< shadowm> No, that's not what shocks me.
20160419 00:51:28< celticminstrel> Oh, okay.
20160419 00:52:12< celticminstrel> Then what shocks you? I could go on guessing, but there's no guarantee that that would get anywhere.
20160419 00:59:20< celticminstrel> Unless you're simply shocked that anyone replied at all...
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20160419 01:00:05< irker526> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 20f67bf4a0c5 / src/CMakeLists.txt: cmake: Disable -Wno-old-style-cast on Lua unit tests https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/20f67bf4a0c5a3849d6fe862fb13a5e48e6a998c
20160419 01:00:08< irker526> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 8d290fc5b7c6 / src/CMakeLists.txt: cmake: Fix linking issues with wesnoth and test targets https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8d290fc5b7c661a0d414e9225e92cc52ad567946
20160419 01:15:36< shadowm> The odds that a prospective contributor who did not deal with it immediately has the ability to deal with a link-time issue are very low.
20160419 01:15:58< shadowm> Especially when it's a thing that's the development team's duty to maintain.
20160419 01:16:22< celticminstrel> Hmm, maybe.
20160419 01:16:32< celticminstrel> To the first part, that is. No argument on the second.
20160419 01:16:33< shadowm> So what shocks me is that someone in the dev team would use such a thing as an excuse to offload work onto externals.
20160419 01:16:57< celticminstrel> Though it's hard for the dev team to maintain what they don't use.
20160419 01:17:12< shadowm> The dev team should be using it then.
20160419 01:17:17< celticminstrel> Maybe.
20160419 01:17:22< shadowm> Unless you want a horde of unhappy packagers knocking at your door next release.
20160419 01:17:46< celticminstrel> I'll keep that in mind.
20160419 01:20:24< shadowm> The alternative, of course, is for the maintainer of the SCons recipe to talk to packagers (esp. Debian) about what's still required to fulfill their requirements, so that CMake can be gradually phased out.
20160419 01:20:51< celticminstrel> I'm not quite sure who the maintainer of the scons is... loonycyborg maybe?
20160419 01:20:52< shadowm> However, looking at the current state of the project that doesn't seem like something anyone is willing to invest time in.
20160419 01:20:58< shadowm> ... Yes.
20160419 01:21:10< celticminstrel> Maybe I knew more than I thought, then.
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20160419 01:39:18< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#9302 (master - 8d290fc : Ignacio R. Morelle): The build has errored.
20160419 01:39:18< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/124068632
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20160419 07:37:52< Aginor> heya
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20160419 21:11:28< SigurdFD> zookeeper: How about this for HttT S10: http://pastebin.com/1K2NaRpf ?
20160419 21:16:00< zookeeper> hmh
20160419 21:21:10< zookeeper> the rewards seem very overpowered compared to just getting the eggs; since the gryphs aren't very useful underground, it's basically either recruit gryphs from s18, or get a loyal one immediately and several more in s22. latter seems like the obvious choice every time, no?
20160419 21:21:37< zookeeper> although to be fair, the gryphs you'd get wouldn't be riders
20160419 21:21:41< zookeeper> so they couldn't advance
20160419 21:22:18< zookeeper> maybe that's enough to balance the scales
20160419 21:24:00< SigurdFD> yeah, it does seem overpowered. I'm leaning toward just one loyal gryphon right away.
20160419 21:26:27< SigurdFD> what about one loyal gryphon, and if it's still alive by s22, gaining the ability to recruit gryphons?
20160419 21:26:46< celticminstrel> Ignoring possible balance concerns, the general idea seems good.
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20160419 21:27:54< celticminstrel> The behaviour description makes me think of the zone guardian, though it might be a bit different.
20160419 21:29:29< zookeeper> i don't think you should get the ability to recruit them at all. the eggs branch already establishes them as being hard to tame and control, so being able to recruit them riderless seems off, no matter how much they like you.
20160419 21:30:43< SigurdFD> not even with the pacifist dialog already in S10?
20160419 21:32:38< SigurdFD> though I think what you said makes sense.
20160419 21:33:10< zookeeper> yeah, i think that just implies that they like you and might help you individually, not pledge their whole flock to your service
20160419 21:33:31< zookeeper> you presumably only get gryph riders because the dwarves will do the riding, and because they were tamed from hatchlings. seems weird if you can get the exact same thing with the wild ones.
20160419 21:33:50< SigurdFD> any idea what the original intent was with 'if you are a pacifist towards the gryphons on Gryphon Mountain (including not getting the eggs), they assist you in battle when you return to Wesnoth > not finished yet'
20160419 21:34:39< zookeeper> i don't know what the exact plan was. could have been something like a flock of them appearing as an allied side and helping out in one specific scenario (22, 23 or 24).
20160419 21:35:28< zookeeper> which isn't necessarily a bad idea, one would just need to make sure it's actually a substantial help
20160419 21:36:39< SigurdFD> That sounds involved. I don't want to go that direction at the moment, I want to make sure I get to 19c & 20b.
20160419 21:37:10< zookeeper> and by that i mean that it'd need to be balanced so that they for example help you finish a scenario a lot sooner (and therefore getting more early finish bonus), but not simply rob you of too much XP while doing so.
20160419 21:37:12< zookeeper> all right
20160419 21:37:48< SigurdFD> what about one loyal immediatel, and 2 more if still alive at s22?
20160419 21:39:42< zookeeper> i think a loyal gryph immediately sounds good, but i'd say perhaps it should rather leave in s13 and return with a few more buddies in s18, than their buddies to find you in s22
20160419 21:40:57< zookeeper> it's a wild gryph, it doesn't want to fly into some murky cave with you. so it goes find extras, and finds you once you return to the surface.
20160419 21:42:53< zookeeper> i suppose they could return later too, s19 or even s22. i just don't think it makes sense for the extras to find you if the original loyal one has remained with you all the time.
20160419 21:43:47< SigurdFD> I though the others joining would be explained simply as the one calling out when returning to wesnoth.
20160419 21:44:33< zookeeper> well it's half the country away, it would have to be a pretty loud call :P
20160419 21:44:47< SigurdFD> good point :D
20160419 21:45:51< SigurdFD> I think the leave s13 if still alive, return s18 with some buddies sounds good.
20160419 21:46:25< SigurdFD> I think it should be limited to 2 additional, having 3 loyal lvl2 flyer scouts is kinda huge.
20160419 21:46:45< Aginor> zookeeper: whales can communicate over vast distances :)
20160419 21:47:13< zookeeper> might be silly if they just appear at the beginning of s18 (where there's already quite a bit of dialogue), so it could be halfway through the scenario or in the end
20160419 21:47:55< zookeeper> Aginor, in water, yeah :P
20160419 21:48:25< Aginor> gryphoons are the air-whales :D
20160419 21:49:34< SigurdFD> I think having them reappear in s18, would make dealing with s19c later simpler.
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20160419 21:51:20< zookeeper> since they can't advance and you can't recruit more, they're much more limited to scouting and village-grabbing than riders, so it should still be a rather different experience. whether they're all loyal or not might not make much of a difference at lvl1.
20160419 21:53:43< SigurdFD> ok
20160419 21:54:59< SigurdFD> speaking of 19c, how about removing the undead, and explaining it as "...to the south is the thickest part of the swamps, it would take too long to travel."
20160419 21:56:08< SigurdFD> as something I could commit quickly, to make sure the xp farm gets killed.
20160419 21:59:11< zookeeper> i don't recall how they work and where they are exactly, but yeah i don't see why there shouldn't just be impassable mountains on the south side too
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20160419 22:04:49< celticminstrel> What's this?
20160419 22:05:26< celticminstrel> About 19c or something?
20160419 22:05:36< zookeeper> anyway, the gryph behavior in s10 is something that probably needs a few iterations to get right. maybe the map needs to be widened a bit too so you actually have space to manouver and foil the loyalists without agitating the gryphs, etc.
20160419 22:05:56< zookeeper> celticminstrel, scenario 19c
20160419 22:06:13< loonycyborg> SigurdFD: I'm curious how exactly erfworld led you to find wesnoth? :P
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20160419 22:06:22< celticminstrel> Removing undead?
20160419 22:06:24< loonycyborg> I don't remember any wesnoth references there..
20160419 22:07:12< zookeeper> celticminstrel, what's your question?
20160419 22:07:33< celticminstrel> I don't understand what this is about.
20160419 22:07:44< zookeeper> it's about the undead in scenario 19c. HttT, of course.
20160419 22:07:48< SigurdFD> loonycyborg: short version - wanted to find game that was close enough to erfworld, looked through their forums, some people mentioned wesnoth as a game.
20160419 22:08:01< celticminstrel> ...so helpful.
20160419 22:08:25< SigurdFD> I think I made a longer version of that somewhere in the 'introduce yourself here' thread.
20160419 22:09:35< loonycyborg> It would be possible to make something erfworld like based on wesnoth
20160419 22:10:39< loonycyborg> like adding unit stacking and stuff :P
20160419 22:10:48< loonycyborg> and maybe even adding global strategy elements
20160419 22:13:14< SigurdFD> would be interesting.
20160419 22:14:26< SigurdFD> celticminstrel: in HttT-19c, the undead can be used as the ultimate xp farm
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20160419 22:21:00< celticminstrel> Okay, and...?
20160419 22:25:17< SigurdFD> I want to remove it, and change the dialog to something like 'we can't go that way, swamp too thick, take too long' as a simple & easy fix
20160419 22:25:30< celticminstrel> So you want to remove the whole scenario?
20160419 22:25:56< SigurdFD> remove the undead that is. not the whole scenario
20160419 22:26:28< celticminstrel> Ah, okay.
20160419 22:26:43< celticminstrel> Looks like 19c isn't the one I went through when I played the campaign...
20160419 22:26:45< zookeeper> is there some kind of reason why it needs to be a swamp in the first place, and not just another row of mountains?
20160419 22:27:00< zookeeper> because if not, then you don't need any dialogue to cover why you can't go there. you just can't go there :p
20160419 22:27:33< zookeeper> (you'd need to remove the swamp references though)
20160419 22:27:43< SigurdFD> the dialog change would be simpler & eaiser than changing the southern part of the map
20160419 22:27:49< celticminstrel> So these undead don't really do anything plot-wise?
20160419 22:28:05< celticminstrel> Or setting-wise or whatever.
20160419 22:28:11< SigurdFD> no, they just look like they were put there as a reason you can't go south at that point
20160419 22:28:54< celticminstrel> There might be a good reason to not replace the swamp with mountains.
20160419 22:29:32< celticminstrel> That area could represent the outskirts of the swamp of 19b.
20160419 22:29:40< celticminstrel> Which would also explain why there are undead there.
20160419 22:29:54< SigurdFD> that might have been the original intent.
20160419 22:30:07< celticminstrel> (But since you presumably chose 19c to avoid going through the swamp in the first place, I think it's fine to use events to block entry.)
20160419 22:30:08< SigurdFD> from what's in 19c, it seems likely
20160419 22:31:15< celticminstrel> I think I recall hearing that 19c is a bonus level offered only if you have merfolk?
20160419 22:31:20< zookeeper> although geographically that makes no sense
20160419 22:31:26< zookeeper> celticminstrel, it is
20160419 22:31:29< celticminstrel> It doesn't?
20160419 22:32:41< zookeeper> yes, it doesn't
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20160419 22:33:46< SigurdFD> what doesn't?
20160419 22:34:14< zookeeper> <celticminstrel> That area could represent the outskirts of the swamp of 19b.
20160419 22:34:57< zookeeper> holy crap why are those red tents back
20160419 22:35:10< SigurdFD> :D
20160419 22:35:14< celticminstrel> ?
20160419 22:35:56< zookeeper> maybe i never removed them in the first place -.- although i don't see how i could have missed that
20160419 22:35:57< SigurdFD> celticminstrel: he means the ones in 19c
20160419 22:36:17< celticminstrel> So what does it make no sense geographically?
20160419 22:36:48< celticminstrel> ^why
20160419 22:39:47< SigurdFD> I see what zookeeper is saying.
20160419 22:40:05< celticminstrel> Okay, well, I guess that's good enough.
20160419 22:40:26< celticminstrel> I don't see it because I don't have all the details and the map in front of me.
20160419 22:41:07< SigurdFD> if you look at the journeymap, and where they are supposed to be in 19c, then it's better to change the bottom part of 19c map, so it will resemble joureny map better.
20160419 22:41:11< zookeeper> the locations are very far apart. hence they cannot both show up in that scenario's map.
20160419 22:41:36< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160419 22:42:37< SigurdFD> Ok, so does removing the undead, and changing the southern part of the map & dialog work?
20160419 22:43:13< zookeeper> fine by me
20160419 22:43:19< SigurdFD> ok
20160419 22:43:56< zookeeper> i can remove the red tent abominations, or you can if it's easier for you to not have to deal with merge conflicts
20160419 22:45:16< celticminstrel> Map files are one place where I wouldn't want to have to deal with merge conflicts...
20160419 22:45:42< SigurdFD> if you're ready to do, go ahead, I'm not gonna get to 19c today
20160419 22:47:35< SigurdFD> though I could do it easily enough with 19c changes
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20160419 22:48:11< irker944> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 9b931a574c09 / data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.cfg: Removed the red tents from top of drake villages https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/9b931a574c09c9f5ebd6c63d6b5c9ac83beea280
20160419 23:01:57< irker944> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 9d95682b8255 / data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/scenarios/11_Captured.cfg: Made the scenario able to cope with lack of potential escapees https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/9d95682b82552cb51780dd2790b301bae246b6be
20160419 23:03:56< zookeeper> the MP lobby doesn't update when wesnoth is minimized? O.o i had wesnoth minimized for a long time, and when i took a look at it, the lobby went nuts, apparently replaying a few hours' worth of joins/leaves/etc in one go.
20160419 23:06:27< celticminstrel> Weird...
20160419 23:13:56< zookeeper> also, i noticed that in "captured" you could in theory disguise a mounted unit, which would be... i'd say hilarious, but that would make it sound a bit funnier than it really is.
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20160419 23:15:05< travis-ci> aquileia/wesnoth#38 (travis_1y - bf53abe : aquileia): The build was canceled.
20160419 23:15:05< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/aquileia/wesnoth/builds/124337951
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20160419 23:15:14< travis-ci> aquileia/wesnoth#38 (travis_1y - bf53abe : aquileia): The build was canceled.
20160419 23:15:14< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/aquileia/wesnoth/builds/124337951
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20160419 23:33:57< fabi__> hi
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20160419 23:55:02< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: do you have a a plan about what to do about the missing characters in the new game font ?
--- Log closed Wed Apr 20 00:00:12 2016