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20160403 15:58:07< Sasquash> so 
20160403 15:58:21< Sasquash> is there a forum for creating a D&D setting out of Wesnoth?
20160403 16:01:19< celticminstrel> Not that I know of.
20160403 16:01:26< Sasquash> hm
20160403 16:01:42< celticminstrel> I'm not sure it would make a good D&D setting...
20160403 16:01:43< Sasquash> A Wesnoth Campaign setting would be a lot of fun
20160403 16:01:48< celticminstrel> It could be, sure.
20160403 16:02:01< celticminstrel> I'm just not sure it would translate well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
20160403 16:02:10< Sasquash> Fair enough
20160403 16:02:18< Sasquash> with as many species as are present
20160403 16:02:34< Sasquash> and the richness of development for specific ones
20160403 16:02:52< Sasquash> there's a lot of available material there already to base work from
20160403 16:03:28< Sasquash> like there's even alphabet and pronounciation charts for things like the Merfolk and Draconic/Saurian languages
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20160403 16:17:41< zookeeper> the wesnoth setting is mostly rather generic D&D-style fantasy so i'm sure you could use it
20160403 16:19:37< zookeeper> of course you'd have to make it rather loosely based on wesnoth since the setting isn't that terribly detailed, but maybe that's not a bad thing.
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20160403 16:25:49< aeth> Sasquash: D&D for Wesnoth? If you mean a tabletop-stlye RPG, I am working on an add-on that sort of plays like it, or at least what I think it plays like since I never had enough nerdy friends to actually do something like that in RL.
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20160403 16:26:34< Sasquash> yes this is indeed what I mean Aeth
20160403 16:26:51< aeth> Sasquash: You have one player place characters on a pre-drawn map, and move them around (hostile and friendly) while a party of other players moves around in the world. And since they have the ability to send in-character chat, and the host basically has debug mode, the host can do all sorts of in-character stuff Wesnoth RPGs normally can't do.
20160403 16:26:54< celticminstrel> I thought you meant actualy D&D though.
20160403 16:26:58< celticminstrel> ^-y
20160403 16:27:02< aeth> Like e.g. I have had players bribe hostile units before
20160403 16:27:09< aeth> I had no bribing mechanism, either.
20160403 16:27:18< aeth> I am probably going to add that mechanism. It's a nice way to learn new features.
20160403 16:27:25< Sasquash> I personally do mean tabletop
20160403 16:27:35< Sasquash> Aeth is the one talking about in game X3
20160403 16:27:48< aeth> Sasquash: right, it's basically a table-top style in-game Wesnoth MP game.
20160403 16:28:07< aeth> Or at least as tabletop style as it can get for someone who hasn't played one. Which is probably a good thing, because if I did play them directly I'd copy them directly too much
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20160403 16:28:42< aeth> It's really hit-or-miss, sometimes the random players online really like roleplaying, other times they just want dozens of enemies thrown at them mindlessly
20160403 16:28:53< celticminstrel> If D&D is on the left and Wesnoth is on the right, you could sort of say that Sasquash is talking about RTL while aeth is talking about LTR.
20160403 16:29:20< Sasquash> huh?
20160403 16:29:22< celticminstrel> Plus Sasquash is talking about transferring lore while aeth is talking about transferring, uh...
20160403 16:29:23< Sasquash> I'm a bit stoned
20160403 16:29:26< celticminstrel> Something else.
20160403 16:29:41< celticminstrel> Not mechanics, not lore... general structural stuff?
20160403 16:29:52< aeth> Sasquash: celticminstrel is saying you want Wesnoth -> tabletop, while I wrote something that's tabletop -> Wesnoth
20160403 16:30:38< aeth> Although I suppose you could use my add-on to literally play tabletop style if you play an in-person LAN party
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20160403 16:55:59< aeth> I think even though our media differ, our goals for depth are roughly the same, though.
20160403 16:56:47< Sasquash> nah, a part of the D&D side is group storytelling
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20160403 17:11:47< Sasquash> there's a lot to offer from the game: Draconian adventures wherein you detail the reason the Saurians are loyal to the bigger species, maybe players face a war by either side, Or maybe they sent an envoy to ask allegiance and the players are those messengers
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20160403 17:17:40< Sasquash> alright well going to go find me some books
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20160403 22:31:56< DeFender1031> hey guys, anyone know if there's a way to make it that units within vision distance of a [tunnel] will clear fog and shroud at the other end of the tunnel just like it were a normal move path? (For example, if a unit with 5 mp moves to 2 spaces away from a tunnel, "normal vision" through the tunnel would mean that a radius of 3 hexes around the other end of the tunnel would get shroud and fog cleared as well)
20160403 22:38:33< DeFender1031> i mean, I COULD set up events to do such, but that would be complicated and probably very resource-intensive, as the map i'm working on has 21 tunnels on it which would need to be independantly accounted for... (in case anyone asks "What the heck are you doing with that many tunnels", the map is a multi-level indoor castle which ties stairs and ladders to the tunnel functionality to allow movement from one floor to the next...
20160403 22:38:35< DeFender1031>  naturally, i'd need shroud within range of the stairs on the next floor up to be cleared so that you can proceed)
20160403 22:48:03< celticminstrel> I don't know of any way to do that, but I think it's a good idea as an optional tunnel flag...
20160403 22:48:51< celticminstrel> Obviously it can't be applied generically to tunnels - silver mages probably shouldn't be able to see the vicinity of all villages if one is in reach.
20160403 22:51:56< aeth> also sometimes tunnels are for surprises
20160403 22:52:24< aeth> although I think the Wesnoth game philosophy is against "tomato surprises" and they e.g. revised UtBS to remove one
20160403 22:52:35< aeth> doesn't change add-ons, though
20160403 22:54:49< DeFender1031> aeth, A: what's a "tomato surprise" B: How can a tunnel be used for a surprise if you can't actually move through it if the other end isn't visible?
20160403 22:55:07< aeth> DeFender1031: B: fog of war
20160403 22:55:16< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, agreed. (Though unit teleport is a special kind of tunnel)
20160403 22:55:50< DeFender1031> aeth, ah right, if it's only fogged, i guess you can still move through it... (i haven't tested that)
20160403 22:55:56< DeFender1031> aeth, and A?
20160403 22:55:57< aeth> I'm guessing
20160403 22:57:25< celticminstrel> Pretty sure teleport abilities use the exact same mechanism.
20160403 22:57:26< aeth> DeFender1031: I'm searching for A. Apparently it was on a different site, not the wiki. http://www.catb.org/~esr/wesnoth/campaign-design-howto.html#_tomato_surprises
20160403 22:57:55< aeth> DeFender1031: esr introduced the term there, afaik, and it's used on the forums fairly frequently: http://forums.wesnoth.org/search.php?keywords=tomato+surprise&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
20160403 22:58:10< celticminstrel> I understand basically what a tomato surprise is, but I'm not too good at identifying them.
20160403 22:58:25< aeth> celticminstrel: oh it's very simple, and it happens all the times in some games
20160403 22:58:30< DeFender1031> ah, because the only result i got from google was http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TomatoSurprise which doesn't seem like the same thing at all
20160403 22:58:33< aeth> celticminstrel: it's anything that makes you play differently the second time around
20160403 22:58:46< celticminstrel> Yeah, I know.
20160403 22:59:03< DeFender1031> aeth, that's interesting, because i noticed a TON of tomato surprises all over the game
20160403 22:59:07< aeth> DeFender1031: It wouldn't surprise me if esr misapplied the original definition
20160403 22:59:30< celticminstrel> It seems to me that it's clearly related to the trope, though not actually the same.
20160403 22:59:32< aeth> DeFender1031: but I think it has to be sort of narrative, like a trap in a set spot that you have no way of knowing about until it kills you
20160403 22:59:38< aeth> DeFender1031: not just getting more skilled on the second playthrough
20160403 22:59:52< aeth> (afaik, this is just my interpretation)
20160403 22:59:52< DeFender1031> i'm aware of that
20160403 23:00:03< aeth> so if 3,5 is an instakill with no indication, that's a tomato surprise
20160403 23:00:19< aeth> or if there's an enemy waiting in the fog to kill you when you go to a certain spot...
20160403 23:00:26< DeFender1031> what i'm thinking of is a scenario where yetis suddenly appear, a different one where if you get too close to the enemy leader, the entire map gets filled with direwolf riders, crap like that
20160403 23:00:49< aeth> yeah you should at least be warned when that happens
20160403 23:01:18< DeFender1031> come to think of it, even the fake holy water in SotBE, though hilarious, is also a tomato surprise
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20160403 23:01:51< aeth> Now that I know that it came from esr, I'm not actually sure if it's part of the Wesnoth design principles.
20160403 23:01:56< aeth> esr is controversial
20160403 23:02:19< DeFender1031> hmm
20160403 23:02:44< DeFender1031> i'm not sure i would oppose them as long as they're not stupid
20160403 23:02:55< celticminstrel> Regardless of whether it came from esr, I don't think it's a bad idea to avoid them.
20160403 23:03:44< aeth> I agree
20160403 23:03:58< celticminstrel> On the other hand, I don't think it would be as interesting if they were competely eliminated.
20160403 23:04:14< aeth> Too many tomato surprises means you basically have a game where you play while reading the walkthrough
20160403 23:04:17< aeth> which ruins the fun
20160403 23:04:39< DeFender1031> aeth, come to think of it, there are a lot of the sort that was mentioned about UtBS, times when all elven troops suddenly abandon you, times when allies turn against you, or enemies join you... knowing these things will happen will inevitably make you change how you play.
20160403 23:05:26< aeth> DeFender1031: it's not just in Wesnoth, too, e.g. in any game with a party where there's a scripted death or betrayal of a party member
20160403 23:05:29< DeFender1031> heck, in HttT, if you know Li'sar and her troops are going to join you, you may let them get more experience than you would otherwise
20160403 23:05:34< aeth> you'll just neglect them 100% if you know that they'll die or betray you
20160403 23:05:48< DeFender1031> indeed
20160403 23:05:59< aeth> HttT is way too easy for strategy :P
20160403 23:06:03< DeFender1031> which is why i'm not sure i agree that they're definitively a bad thing.
20160403 23:06:17< aeth> You can just play HttT with shamans and loyals only and do okay because of so many loyals you can use to guard your OP shaman upgrades
20160403 23:06:28< celticminstrel> They're something to be careful of.
20160403 23:08:16< aeth> the only thing that's frustrating in campaigns including HttT is how frustratingly bad your allies are
20160403 23:08:39< aeth> ridiculously stupid moves that can lose you the game
20160403 23:08:47< DeFender1031> not entirely true. the first time i played it (on easy mind you) i got to the last scenario and kept getting run through over and over, until i basically just put up a wall of newly-recruited dwarves and kept replenishing them until the wave of enemies was weakened... now granted, when i played it the first time, i didn't realize that purple meant units didn't level up anymore and i just kept using the same ones so i didn't 
20160403 23:08:49< DeFender1031> have nearly enough advanced units, but i had tons of gold because i did well on the victory bonuses...
20160403 23:08:51< aeth> The only time I cheat is to take manual control of an AI ally that's ruining everything
20160403 23:09:38< DeFender1031> aeth, agreed. I also hate the scenarios where it's like "give an ally instructions by right clicking on them" and no matter what you pick, they still tend to do basically the same thing anyway.
20160403 23:10:28< aeth> Google needs to put DeepMind on Wesnoth
20160403 23:11:07< celticminstrel> There are already some pretty decent AIs available in Wesnoth.
20160403 23:11:31< celticminstrel> Like one for an enemy defending a very narrow opening.
20160403 23:11:47< celticminstrel> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs
20160403 23:11:55< DeFender1031> well, in the meantime, for my tunnel shroud issue, i think i'll set an event which reveals the other end with a radius 1 when one end is sighted (that'll be much simpler to do, as i can manage it with only a couple of events since my related stairs are terrain based and have their positions correlated)
20160403 23:12:03< celticminstrel> Of course, they need to be enabled on a per-scenario basis.
20160403 23:12:29< aeth> celticminstrel: enable it on A New Land, an MP scenario in mainline, perhaps?
20160403 23:12:39< aeth> It's too easy to set up a bottleneck and defeat the AI enemies that way
20160403 23:12:49< celticminstrel> I don't think that would work.
20160403 23:12:59< aeth> you can literally construct bottlenecks with terrain changing (although only water ones, not walled ones)
20160403 23:13:16< celticminstrel> It's very specific - you specify the exact locations to place units, essentially.
20160403 23:13:27< aeth> no offsets allowed?
20160403 23:13:35< celticminstrel> Just read the page?
20160403 23:14:01< aeth> yes, but I do hate links because there's about a 10% chance of them crashing Konsole now because that's the KDE bug of the month
20160403 23:14:08< celticminstrel> Uh, okay.
20160403 23:14:27< aeth> so I don't click links if I can get away with it
20160403 23:15:18< aeth> celticminstrel: I see that it's just listing coordinates, which is unfortunate
20160403 23:15:23< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20160403 23:15:46< celticminstrel> To enable it in something like ANL, you'd need to come up with some sort of way to decide when to apply it.
20160403 23:15:59< aeth> It's really not that hard to generalize a situation and then list offsets rather than coordinates, although for a bottleneck AI you'd need 6 different offsets because of the hex layout afaik
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20160403 23:18:22< DeFender1031> oh dangit... there's no sighted event for locations, only for units...
20160403 23:18:35< DeFender1031> hmm...
20160403 23:18:42< celticminstrel> [filter_vision] might work.
20160403 23:18:53< celticminstrel> I think that's part of a SUF.
20160403 23:19:08< celticminstrel> Matches units based on what they can see.
20160403 23:19:21< celticminstrel> I don't remember whether it's a SUF or a SLF though.
20160403 23:19:25< DeFender1031> right, but i need to match a location based on whether it can be seen
20160403 23:19:44< celticminstrel> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardUnitFilter
20160403 23:20:13< celticminstrel> Hmm, looks like that won't work.
20160403 23:20:31< celticminstrel> I was wrong. It matches units not based on what they can see but rather on who can see them.
20160403 23:20:41< celticminstrel> Okay, here's another idea.
20160403 23:20:44< DeFender1031> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardLocationFilter has [filter_vision] also
20160403 23:20:51< DeFender1031> based on whether it can be seens
20160403 23:20:52< celticminstrel> Oh.
20160403 23:21:02< celticminstrel> Okay, so you could use that then.
20160403 23:21:06< DeFender1031> the problem is that doesn't help... i don't have an event to stick it on
20160403 23:21:15< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20160403 23:21:20< DeFender1031> unless i attach it to an unfiltered moveto event...
20160403 23:21:36< celticminstrel> Okay, I'll say my other idea.
20160403 23:21:44< DeFender1031> any move that's made it rechecks the tunnels that are visible and clears their other sides...
20160403 23:21:48< DeFender1031> could work
20160403 23:21:51< DeFender1031> yeah, sorry, go on
20160403 23:21:56< celticminstrel> Though it's not perfect.
20160403 23:22:02< celticminstrel> A moveto event.
20160403 23:22:21< celticminstrel> For locations within a given radius of the tunnel.
20160403 23:22:26< DeFender1031> i just said that
20160403 23:22:40< celticminstrel> And give the radius as $this_unit.moves or something similar.
20160403 23:22:55< DeFender1031> well, $this_unit.vision really.
20160403 23:22:56< celticminstrel> I didn't see you saying it...
20160403 23:23:06< celticminstrel> True, but it's the same in practice for all mainline units.
20160403 23:23:12< DeFender1031> well, i said an unfiltered moveto that just always rechecks everything
20160403 23:23:25< celticminstrel> You could also do $($this_unit.vision / 2) or something.
20160403 23:23:54< celticminstrel> I'm not sure [filter_vision] can work in an unfiltered moveto.
20160403 23:24:02< DeFender1031> it'd work... heck, it'd even be possible to get the visible radius on the other end correct.
20160403 23:24:12< celticminstrel> Really?
20160403 23:24:16< celticminstrel> If that can work, go for it.
20160403 23:24:22< celticminstrel> I might be missing something.
20160403 23:24:27< DeFender1031> oh... hmm... not precisely.
20160403 23:24:31< DeFender1031> but close
20160403 23:24:35< celticminstrel> Because I don't see how it can work.
20160403 23:24:45< DeFender1031> the issue is other events can also change visibility
20160403 23:24:51< DeFender1031> recruit/recall, advancement
20160403 23:24:59< DeFender1031> annoying to try to cover them all
20160403 23:25:40< DeFender1031> well, you can tell how much movement it'd take for a unit to get to the tunnel, therefore you can know what's left for after
20160403 23:25:57< DeFender1031> it's not perfect because vision is not enforced to be the same as movement
20160403 23:26:07< DeFender1031> and because the vision costs may be different
20160403 23:26:09< DeFender1031> etc
20160403 23:26:15< DeFender1031> hmm
20160403 23:26:19< celticminstrel> How can you tell how much movement it'd take for a unit to get to the tunnel?
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20160403 23:28:06< DeFender1031> there's some calculate path thingy
20160403 23:28:21< DeFender1031> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/InternalActionsWML#.5Bfind_path.5D
20160403 23:29:39< celticminstrel> Oh, right.
20160403 23:29:50< celticminstrel> You can write "filters" as part of the code of an event. Duh.
20160403 23:29:56< DeFender1031> yeah
20160403 23:30:00< DeFender1031> exactly
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 04 00:00:23 2016