--- Log opened Mon Apr 11 00:00:02 2016
20160411 00:02:17< celticminstrel> But it sounded like you got no error at all...
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20160411 00:10:25< DeFender1031> no, i did have it, and i bypassed it in the normal way (had to do so every time i've installed before, when i installed 1.10 there, and when i upgraded to 1.12, so it was nothing new)
20160411 00:10:45< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160411 00:11:10< celticminstrel> So, what about using either console.app or terminal.app to see if there's a useful error, message, like I suggested?
20160411 00:14:01< DeFender1031> because, as i said, i'm not sure how to launch wesnoth in console from inside the dmg without installing
20160411 00:15:44< celticminstrel> I just explained that though...
20160411 00:19:12< DeFender1031> must have missed that...
20160411 00:19:23< DeFender1031> oh, the part about draggin wesnoth.app into the winsdow?
20160411 00:20:04< celticminstrel> For Terminal, yeah.
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20160411 15:57:23< vn971> sorry, I may just be chatting without any exact goal.. But when you join the official server and look for games, do you check out new games first, or the oldest ones?
20160411 15:57:42< vn971> it's always "newest" for me, I go from new to old.
20160411 15:59:02< celticminstrel> I just don't find games in that way.
20160411 15:59:37< celticminstrel> I agree to a game beforehand, for example in here, and then join and look for that game. (Though in practice this rarely actually happens.)
20160411 16:00:04< celticminstrel> But "newest" definitely makes more sense to me.
20160411 16:00:26< celticminstrel> If I were looking for a random game to join, I think I'd check the newest ones first.
20160411 16:01:17< vn971> celticminstrel: well, yes. It seems so natural to focus on "new" first so I thought about raising the question.
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20160411 18:54:26< DeFender1031> is it just me, or is the line between "images/halo" and "images/projectiles" somewhat ambiguious and arbitrary? Same with "scenery" and "items", and "attacks" and "icons"
20160411 18:54:56< zookeeper> not just you
20160411 18:56:46< celticminstrel> I think "halo" is usually used as a stationary effect on the hex while "projectile" is something that moves between the two hexes, but there's definitely not a clear boundary, and you could easily use a halo as a projectile or vice versa. "halo" also means something drawn behind the unit, like the illuminates aura.
20160411 18:56:46< DeFender1031> to me, it seems like there's basically "stuff for animations", "stuff that appears on the map but isn't terrain" (though, i've noticed some sceneryish stuff in terrain dirs too), and "icons for various UI bits"
20160411 18:57:32< celticminstrel> "items" is things intended to be picked up, while "scenery" is intended for flavour, but again, you're quite right - there's no real difference, and in fact both would normally be used in an [item] tag.
20160411 18:58:02< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, that latter part is what it means in certain WML parameters, not the image dir, as images have nothing of the sort intrinically associated with them
20160411 18:58:03< celticminstrel> "attacks" are, obviously, intended for use as unit attack icons; I'm not sure what "icons" are intended for, but not that.
20160411 18:58:20< DeFender1031> i'm aware of the INTENTION
20160411 18:58:36< celticminstrel> No, what I mean is, the images were added with that sort of use in mind, and that's really the only reason they're broken up in the way they are.
20160411 18:58:36< DeFender1031> it just seems like a lot of it has a lot of overlap and could go either way
20160411 18:59:29< DeFender1031> as for "intented to be picked up", "items" contains stuff like altars, boxes, fire braziers, statues...
20160411 19:00:05< celticminstrel> Probably someone didn't quite understand the purpose of the division and just placed them in items because they're meatn for use in an [item] tag.
20160411 19:00:22< DeFender1031> but that's exactly my point
20160411 19:00:28< celticminstrel> I think some of the scenery is also used for terrain now - like the fire.
20160411 19:00:36< DeFender1031> also true
20160411 19:00:49< celticminstrel> Or the windmill maybe? I dunno, that one might be duplicated under terrain.
20160411 19:01:28< zookeeper> it is
20160411 19:01:32< DeFender1031> yep
20160411 19:01:49< celticminstrel> Kinda silly for it to be duplicated...
20160411 19:01:50< DeFender1031> also, the mag halos are used both as a halo and as a projectile.
20160411 19:01:54< DeFender1031> mage*
20160411 19:02:01< celticminstrel> Are they really?
20160411 19:02:08< DeFender1031> umm... yes?
20160411 19:02:17< celticminstrel> Maybe they were originally added as a halo and then used as a projectile later.
20160411 19:02:33< DeFender1031> i wouldn't know. 1.10 was my first version of wesnoth
20160411 19:02:41< zookeeper> celticminstrel, correct
20160411 19:02:44< celticminstrel> The term "halo" is pretty ambiguously used in Wesnoth, too.
20160411 19:02:49< DeFender1031> indeed
20160411 19:03:02< DeFender1031> i already pointed out some of the weirdness of halo vs. image in animations
20160411 19:03:08< celticminstrel> In animations it means something a bit different from its meaning in units/items.
20160411 19:03:18< DeFender1031> exactly
20160411 19:03:34< DeFender1031> in fact, in animations, it very often IS used for the projectiles.
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20160411 19:04:18< celticminstrel> It might be nice to merge scenery->items, projectiles->halos, and icons->attacks, but that would break everything , so probably not worth it.
20160411 19:05:40< zookeeper> a lot of that stuff is ambiguous no matter how the dirs are named, so there's not really a perfect solution to be found.
20160411 19:05:41< DeFender1031> right, i realized that too. since the paths in core are used by all the add-ons, trying to organize it better now would piss a lot of people off.
20160411 19:06:00< DeFender1031> zookeeper, this is a good point as well
20160411 19:06:00< celticminstrel> Exactly.
20160411 19:06:23< celticminstrel> I think the halo directory also contains both types of halos.
20160411 19:06:23< zookeeper> i doubt it's a big problem for UMC authors though, to learn what kind of stuff is where and maybe have to check both items and scenery before finding the one they're looking for, etc.
20160411 19:06:43< celticminstrel> Yeah, probably not, since there's only two places in each case.
20160411 19:07:36< Ravana_> not a big problems, but is seems to make nothing better either - after all, only people who do have to worry about those paths are those who would be most annoyed from changing them
20160411 19:10:54< DeFender1031> i'm not calling it a problem. simply a minor annoyance.
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20160411 20:07:20< DeFender1031> does the "remove add-ons" dialog do anything internally aside from deleting the add-on directories from userdata? any other config files that it modifies?
20160411 20:07:52< DeFender1031> (such as whatever marks a campaign as completed and puts that gold thingy on it in the menu)
20160411 20:09:02< celticminstrel> As far as I know it doesn't affect campaign completion, which is stored in the preferences file.
20160411 20:10:52< DeFender1031> that actually makes a certain amount of sense... if you uninstall and reinstall it after beating it, it doesn't mean you never beat it.
20160411 20:11:37< celticminstrel> True.
20160411 20:15:05< DeFender1031> but basically, i kind of installed a crap ton of add-ons so that i could easily go looking for graphics, but that's making wesnoth itself load like molasses, so i want to move those directories elsewhere so i have the data but wesnoth won't see it. I need to make sure though that whatever i'm doing to move them is valid and that the internal "remove add-ons" thing isn't doing something additional which by me not doing will 
20160411 20:15:07< DeFender1031> make wesnoth remain slow.
20160411 20:16:46< celticminstrel> You can just move the folders while Wesnoth is closed.
20160411 20:16:51< celticminstrel> Put them anywhere else.
20160411 20:17:00< celticminstrel> Then they'll no longer be seen as installed.
20160411 20:17:19< celticminstrel> (You could probably do it while Wesnoth is open too, and then press F5 at the title screen.)
20160411 20:20:28< DeFender1031> F...5 works to clear the cache?!
20160411 20:20:41< DeFender1031> i'd been restarting wesnoth every time i make a minor change!
20160411 20:20:52< DeFender1031> that's much more useful
20160411 20:20:54< celticminstrel> It only works at the titlescreen though.
20160411 20:20:58< DeFender1031> even so
20160411 20:21:07< celticminstrel> Well, I think it might also work in the map editor.
20160411 20:21:15< DeFender1031> fine, still
20160411 20:21:37< celticminstrel> But it might be a little dangerous to use it in the map editor. I think someone said it implicitly saves all open maps or something.
20160411 20:21:59< DeFender1031> i do wish though that there was a way to disable the cache, so that if i go to the title screen and start my campaign fresh, the changes will take effect immediately... though F5 is certainly useful
20160411 20:22:11< DeFender1031> that's... bad.
20160411 20:22:49< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20160411 20:26:56< DeFender1031> so i'm not going to do that.
20160411 20:35:03< vn971> DeFender1031: well, there are corresponding for that in the manual. Did you check?
20160411 20:35:27< vn971> DeFender1031: `man wesnoth`, see  "--nocache"
20160411 20:35:38< zookeeper> oh yeah, if you're in the editor and have unsaved changes in an open map, F5 causes it to be silently saved
20160411 20:35:56< DeFender1031> vn971, wow, didn't realize wesnoth had a man page
20160411 20:36:17< vn971> DeFender1031: * corresponding keys I meant.
20160411 20:36:41< DeFender1031> vn971, i figured. thanks, this will help.
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20160411 22:18:44< DeFender1031> for anyone who's interested, further to our conversation earlier, here's a list of images which are direct duplicate files of other images in core or mainline in 1.12 (I generated this list as part of something else entirely, but given the conversation earlier I thought people here might find it interesting) http://paste.nachsoftware.com/DeFender1031/RvgHq46f7f52e14ed27ec0b08570c1f9839127Mg
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20160411 22:27:55< zookeeper> aside from the 4th line, looks harmless
20160411 22:28:20< zookeeper> well, not that that one's harmful, just needless and unintended
20160411 22:30:16< DeFender1031> i mean, it's all pretty harmless
20160411 22:31:27< DeFender1031> but there's no reason (aside from the fact that it already exists and is in use) that the things which use them couldn't use just one copy.
20160411 22:32:14< DeFender1031> though for some of them where the same image is used as part of two separate animations, that does make sense
20160411 22:32:20< celticminstrel> Why is it hard-wrapped... :|
20160411 22:32:27< celticminstrel> Or wait.
20160411 22:32:45< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, huh?
20160411 22:32:47< celticminstrel> Maybe it's just that the line numbers don't account for wrapping and thus don't line up correctly.
20160411 22:32:50< zookeeper> makes sense in animations _and_ terrain graphics
20160411 22:33:15< zookeeper> i mean, in castles and stuff
20160411 22:33:16< celticminstrel> So the one zookeeper is calling out is the two shields?
20160411 22:33:20< zookeeper> yes
20160411 22:34:29< zookeeper> but it's only 5kb, so...
20160411 22:34:35< DeFender1031> right. and since this is intended to be portable, tricks such as symlinks can't be used to save space
20160411 22:35:05< DeFender1031> (not that a few icon-sized images is all that much bloat anyway)
20160411 22:35:31< DeFender1031> oh, that reminds me, i've been wondering idly when and how 72x72 was settled on for hex sizes
20160411 22:35:36 * zookeeper squeaky-mallets jetrel 6 years late, for adding the duplicate
20160411 22:35:39< celticminstrel> I think Windows actually does support symlinks now in the NTFS filesystem. Maybe.
20160411 22:36:45< vn971> celticminstrel: yes, at least starting from win7. Don't remember about winxp, probably not.
20160411 22:37:54< celticminstrel> I haven't the slightest clue how you would create one on Windows though. I also don't know if git is set up to portably handle them.
20160411 22:38:00< celticminstrel> (Probably not.)
20160411 22:38:21< zookeeper> >10 add-ons use icons/shield_tower_merfolk.png, so i guess not worth the hassle to remove it to save that pesky 5kb.
20160411 22:39:58< DeFender1031> vn971, i know for sure that xp does not.
20160411 22:40:07< DeFender1031> vn971, also, you skipped vista.
20160411 22:40:16< DeFender1031> (not that anyone cares)
20160411 22:40:29< vn971> DeFender1031: right. )))
20160411 22:40:46< celticminstrel> XP doesn't even with NTFS?
20160411 22:41:18< vn971> celticminstrel: in fact, XP installs with NTFS by default. Could probably also work on FAT, but still.
20160411 22:41:31< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure XP does work on FAT32.
20160411 22:41:47< celticminstrel> But I guess that does mean the answer is probably "yes".
20160411 22:42:12< vn971> celticminstrel: there is a CLI to create symlinks. Very ugly of course, but what else would you expect from windows.
20160411 22:43:21< celticminstrel> Well, OSX has no way to make symlinks from the Finder either, at least as of 10.7... which is just fine, because aliases are actually better.
20160411 22:44:01< celticminstrel> At least for anything you're doing in the Finder. Command-line programs can't follow them.
20160411 22:44:11< vn971> there may be some limitations, too, and symlinks will probably eat a bit of hard disk space. (In Linux, IIRC, they can totally reside in the "addressing" space only allocating space to store the name itself.)
20160411 22:44:13< celticminstrel> The Finder also shows symlinks as aliases.
20160411 22:44:46< celticminstrel> ie, with the same tiny arrow icon.
20160411 22:47:07< vn971> celticminstrel: hm, didn't know about aliases. Something in between hardlinks and symlinks. Not sure of any use cases where aliases would be better than both of these two though.
20160411 22:47:44< celticminstrel> Aliases can point to files on another drive.
20160411 22:47:54< celticminstrel> So they're better than hard links in that respect.
20160411 22:47:55< DeFender1031> vn971, even on systems where they DO take up space, they're basically a text file containing the path they point to, so they'll still be pretty dang small
20160411 22:48:05< celticminstrel> They do take up a tiny amount of space on disk though.
20160411 22:48:25< celticminstrel> Either as xattr data or in the resource fork.
20160411 22:48:51< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, symlinks can also point to stuff across drives
20160411 22:49:11< celticminstrel> Yes, I know.
20160411 22:49:31< celticminstrel> However, aliases continue to point to the same file even if it moves, provided it's still on the same drive.
20160411 22:50:31< vn971> celticminstrel: ah, cross-device support is something I just did not expect. OK cool.)
20160411 22:51:39< celticminstrel> Yeah, aliases can point across drives, but if their target moves across drives, they break.
20160411 22:51:39< DeFender1031> hmm...
20160411 22:51:55< celticminstrel> Drives, devices, whatever.
20160411 22:52:00< DeFender1031> partitions.
20160411 22:52:03< DeFender1031> you mean partitions
20160411 22:52:05 * celticminstrel nod.
20160411 22:52:07< celticminstrel> Sure.
20160411 22:52:09< DeFender1031> but it's okay, we all know what you mean
20160411 22:52:15< DeFender1031> ;)
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