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20160414 17:37:49< aeth> Hopefully soon I'll be doing a test game with my RPG mod to make sure the latest rewrite worked (sorry, not many new features except new maps)
20160414 17:37:52< aeth> if anyone's interested
20160414 17:38:43< fabi> aeth: I have a big map that I want to use in a RPG setup. I still search for a system to support it.
20160414 17:39:16< aeth> fabi: I am making an RPG engine basically just for big non-linear maps
20160414 17:39:34< fabi> non-linEAR?
20160414 17:39:36< aeth> I am currently trying to think about maybe e.g. tagging each unit on spawn, and putting them in factions, that can change to hostile based on the story
20160414 17:40:24< aeth> fabi: So it's a big open world (or a cave or a temple or whatever)... the two largest are 120x90. Especially with the largest ones, and basically on all of them except the smallest, cannot be explored in one sitting.
20160414 17:40:39< aeth> fabi: So it's open-ended because you can go in different directions on the map, and basically have different games
20160414 17:41:08< fabi> My map is 200x200
20160414 17:41:19< fabi> And I recently made it 400x400
20160414 17:41:35< aeth> ah
20160414 17:41:44< aeth> I considered merging my maps, but I decided against it.
20160414 17:41:45< fabi> but only the quarter that was the original 200x200 is very detailed yet.
20160414 17:42:17< fabi> I like it to be a big open world.
20160414 17:42:24< fabi> Parts of it have a railway system.
20160414 17:42:34< fabi> And teleport networks.
20160414 17:42:51< fabi> Players should also be able to use ships for transportation.
20160414 17:43:12< aeth> The two largest of my maps basically fit together, if you blended them with a few to a few dozen hexes in between. They're done in the same style, but with different purposes (one's mostly a huge city and the other is mostly a diversity of different types of wilderness)
20160414 17:43:26< aeth> Both of those have a river with a pier using ships for transporation, but I haven't implemented that yet.
20160414 17:43:38< aeth> I will implement that at least before the city one is tested, which relies on the river fast transit more than the wilderness one
20160414 17:44:19< fabi> Do you code an inventory system and shop system yourself?
20160414 17:44:35< aeth> yes, in Lua
20160414 17:45:02< fabi> using the gui2 api?
20160414 17:45:05< aeth> yes
20160414 17:45:11< aeth> I have to rewrite parts of it again to get multi-turn effects working. I haven't gotten around to that yet.
20160414 17:45:45< aeth> All of the interesting item ideas I have are multi-turn effects that eventually wear off, with stacking adding duration rather than effect, for balance.
20160414 17:46:16< aeth> so a hypothetical strength potion (I don't even have one of those planned) applied 4 times would just make it last 4 (or 8, or whatever) turns
20160414 17:50:53< aeth> It's not ready to be used by others yet, though. Right now it hardcodes the assumptions of my RPG, which is that sides 1 and 6 are controlled by the host, and basically have access to a debug mode, so NPCs and enemies are more interesting than in most RPGs.
20160414 17:50:53< aeth> That's the other side of the open-endedness. The campaign (main set of quests) on each map can be different, depending on the host, on each playthrough. It's a bit too open-ended, though. I will probably add presets before I publish it. The original version also basically relied on the host map-editing a blank map in real time so each map was literally different, but I did the pre-drawn maps so other people (not everyone can make interes
20160414 17:51:10< aeth> ting maps quickly) could host it.
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20160414 17:52:36< aeth> What I'd really like is a multiple-map-in-one-scenario system so I could e.g. have my underground maps as dungeons on top of the big open world (which I could maybe merge) without losing the state of the former or doing a messy save-stack hack like an MP campaign will do.
20160414 17:52:59< DeFender1031> aeth, this is single or multi player?
20160414 17:53:23< fabi> aeth: Yes, that would be nice.
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20160414 17:59:25< aeth> DeFender1031: It's 2p+, though 3p+ makes more sense. It could be 1p, if I removed all the stuff that differentiates it from most other Wesnoth RPGs, i.e. the host's abilities to change the in-progress scenario to keep it interesting
20160414 17:59:41< DeFender1031> hmm
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20160414 18:42:05< aeth> fabi: how did you make your map 400x400?
20160414 18:42:17< fabi> aeth: With emacs
20160414 18:42:54< aeth> oh, I forgot about M-x resize-wesnoth-map
20160414 18:43:05< fabi> oh
20160414 18:43:16< fabi> the wesnoth emacs mode features that?
20160414 18:43:23< fabi> I just used cut and paste
20160414 18:43:27< aeth> I was joking
20160414 18:43:35< fabi> :-)
20160414 18:43:37< aeth> emacs has everything included, except for an editor, after all
20160414 18:43:44< celticminstrel> Pffft.
20160414 18:44:32< fabi> Emacs with the Wesnoth mode is the only useful WML ide.
20160414 18:44:42< fabi> Beside the exlipse plugin.
20160414 18:44:58< aeth> I don't use that, although I mostly just use Lua.
20160414 18:44:59< celticminstrel> I never liked the eclipse plugin.
20160414 18:45:13< celticminstrel> Now I just use a normal text editor.
20160414 18:45:19< aeth> Emacs seems to handle Wesnoth-style .cfg files decently, assuming it's some generic Unixy config file, which isn't that far off.
20160414 18:45:46< fabi> The wesnoth mode does tag, attribute and macro completion
20160414 18:45:47< celticminstrel> Github seems to be hiliting them as if they were generic sectioned configs.
20160414 18:45:54< aeth> Although stuff like auto-closing [foo] similar to paredit could possibly be convenient. so typing '[foo]' makes it '[foo]|[/foo]' where | is the cursor (obviously indented properly too
20160414 18:46:01< celticminstrel> Which means indented tags don't get hilited.
20160414 18:46:12< fabi> aeth: The emacs mode does that
20160414 18:46:47< aeth> fabi: I really don't like the Wesnoth macro system. It should be replaced with a generic templating engine that's designed to handle stuff like HTML. There are a billion of those by now, and HTML is close enough to WML.
20160414 18:47:12< aeth> Wesnoth has way too much NIH (including using WML instead of XML, actually)
20160414 18:47:18< celticminstrel> NIH?
20160414 18:47:22< fabi> aeth: I am working on a successor to wml without any macros.
20160414 18:47:26< aeth> celticminstrel: not invented here
20160414 18:47:33< DeFender1031> aeth, it's really a shame that such a good operating system like emacs still can't provide a decent text editor.
20160414 18:47:48< celticminstrel> Calling it a successor is a bit of a stretch.
20160414 18:48:15< fabi> no
20160414 18:48:19< aeth> DeFender1031: M-x term RET RET vim RET
20160414 18:48:21< celticminstrel> No, it is.
20160414 18:48:37< DeFender1031> aeth, damn straight.
20160414 18:49:23< fabi> celticminstrel: My work is planned as a successor and supposed to replace WML in the near future. 
20160414 18:49:36< aeth> DeFender1031: :! emacs -nw RET
20160414 18:49:39< celticminstrel> Right, it's intended as a successor, but intent is not sufficient to make it one.
20160414 18:49:52< celticminstrel> And I still don't think it's a suitable replacement.
20160414 18:50:06< aeth> DeFender1031: you can do an infinite nesting of emacs-in-vim-in-emacs that way, assuming you have infinite RAM
20160414 18:50:08< fabi> Why not?
20160414 18:50:21< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure we've been over this before.
20160414 18:50:43< fabi> celticminstrel: I have not heard much arguments from your side.
20160414 18:51:16< celticminstrel> Well, it's a totally different syntax from WML, so all WML would need to be updated, and all addons would break.
20160414 18:51:37< fabi> Why is that a problem?
20160414 18:51:51< aeth> celticminstrel: I wouldn't mind breaking WML to fix some things that should be done properly, like using conditional expressions instead of conditional statements. This would break most WML, but make [and] useful.
20160414 18:51:54< celticminstrel> I can't believe you're asking that question.
20160414 18:52:20< celticminstrel> aeth: Fabi's proposal is essentially "let's replace WML with Lua code defining the structures".
20160414 18:52:28< aeth> i.e. [and] or [or] should lazily evaluate and then return true or false, making nesting of such things clearer
20160414 18:52:52< aeth> like lisp's (or (and (foo) (bar) (baz)) (quux))
20160414 18:53:00< fabi> lua is perfectly suited for that purpose
20160414 18:53:11< fabi> it was designed as a content description language
20160414 18:53:17< aeth> [or] [and] foo bar baz [/and] quux [/or]
20160414 18:53:31< celticminstrel> aeth: Unfortunately, that's not possible with WML.
20160414 18:53:45< fabi> aeth: But with my system it is :-)
20160414 18:53:55< celticminstrel> But your system breaks all WML.
20160414 18:53:57< TC01> (as a random spectator) presumably, if you wanted to 'replace' WML in favor of some new language, you could make Wesnoth support both (at least initially?) but encourage people to use the new one?
20160414 18:54:00< celticminstrel> So it's not a good option.
20160414 18:54:07< celticminstrel> TC01: This is true, yes.
20160414 18:54:23< aeth> celticminstrel: WML should be replaced as a layer on top of Lua in most areas, although macros should probably be kept and just replaced with an HTML template engine, since HTML template engines are used by nearly everyone to write HTML applications, and thus are potentially way more battle-tested than a WML-specific macro system
20160414 18:54:25< DeFender1031> aeth, https:/google.com/?q=recursion
20160414 18:54:50< aeth> DeFender1031: syntax error on the one / :-p
20160414 18:54:57< fabi> aeth: I think that I have found a good solution entirely based on Lua/MoonScript.
20160414 18:55:22< DeFender1031> huh? whatever, the point is when you google "recursion" is asks whether you meant "recursion" with a link to the same search
20160414 18:55:26< fabi> And I don't share celticminstrel's opinion. It is okay to have a converting script that transforms WSL into the successor.
20160414 18:55:45< celticminstrel> It's better to have that "converting script" built into the engine.
20160414 18:55:53< fabi> no
20160414 18:55:56< celticminstrel> Yes.
20160414 18:56:02< fabi> I don't want to maintain a huge engine.
20160414 18:56:06< celticminstrel> Too late.
20160414 18:56:12< celticminstrel> Oh wait, you're not maintaining it anyway...
20160414 18:56:40< fabi> Nobody is.
20160414 18:56:45< celticminstrel> False.
20160414 18:56:55< fabi> The current development time is to few people and most are unexperienced.
20160414 18:56:59< aeth> DeFender1031: I prefer recursion that's not a simple self recursion.
20160414 18:57:03< fabi> s/to/too
20160414 18:57:23< DeFender1031> aeth, agreed. multi-part recursion is so much more fun.
20160414 18:57:41< fabi> And there is no sane plan.
20160414 18:58:01< fabi> People still talk about finishing gui2. As if that ever is going to happen.
20160414 18:58:09< celticminstrel> It's not an impossible goal.
20160414 18:58:38< celticminstrel> I wouldn't even call it an insane goal.
20160414 18:59:00< DeFender1031> aeth, like having a virtualbox with remote desktop access enabled which is itself remote desktopping into another virtualbox elsewhere (i was actually forced to do exactly this once to get something to work right)
20160414 18:59:17< aeth> celticminstrel: Wesnoth's assets are its content, its liabilities are its code. It's free software... it's free as in puppy, it's not free as in beer to maintain.
20160414 18:59:31< celticminstrel> ...puppy?
20160414 18:59:41< aeth> celticminstrel: Anything that reduces Wesnoth's code through simplification or moving to libraries is a good thing. That's fewer things developers have to worry about.
20160414 18:59:54< fabi> ^
20160414 19:00:02 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20160414 19:00:03< fabi> I pretty much agree with aeth
20160414 19:00:09< aeth> celticminstrel: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/1678/
20160414 19:00:36< celticminstrel> There's some truth in that argument, at least.
20160414 19:00:42< aeth> celticminstrel: I'm working on my own game engine, and I love when I can rip out a week's or a month's work with something better that's already written, in library form.
20160414 19:00:43< fabi> aeth: It is insane to start developing a gui system (which is a huge project) inside a medium sized game project.
20160414 19:00:53< celticminstrel> But you can't just rip out code without thinking about the impact on the users.
20160414 19:01:32< aeth> celticminstrel: that's why you deprecate, write wrappers, etc.
20160414 19:01:35< fabi> The engine of Wesnoth is pretty much end of life.
20160414 19:01:37< aeth> celticminstrel: Usually when I use a library, I wrap it.
20160414 19:01:39< celticminstrel> I don't have any particular attachment to GUI2, so if someone took the time to build a simpler replacement, which could do all the same things and read similar WML, I'd be all for it.
20160414 19:01:42< fabi> No one should rip out anything.
20160414 19:01:50< fabi> It should be maintained a little longer. 
20160414 19:02:03< fabi> But not developed any further.
20160414 19:02:09< celticminstrel> That's your opinion.
20160414 19:02:20< aeth> celticminstrel: It wouldn't be hard to build something that's simpler and superior to GUI2... afaik, GUI2 is blocking, which means it'll block chat, animations, etc., while you're in a menu... and that makes it look right out of the 90s compared to modern UIs
20160414 19:02:40< aeth> I have complicated menus, and users complain because GUI2 blocks the chat so they can't collaborate while in menu
20160414 19:02:47< fabi> celticminstrel: It is the opinion of a handful of competent coders.
20160414 19:03:28< fabi> ice³ said it before me iirc
20160414 19:03:29< aeth> celticminstrel: meanwhile GUI2 is way too low-level in its configuration... the WML is too verbose, it's worse than Java in terms of how explicit you have to be, with no reasonable default that allows you to be more concise
20160414 19:03:47< aeth> Although you could probably sort of work around that if Wesnoth had something better than its macros, like an HTML template engine
20160414 19:03:49< celticminstrel> I agree the WML is too verbose.
20160414 19:04:28< aeth> Switch to the HTML template engine *first*, and in a few releases you'll be able to change the backend because everyone reasonable will be using the wrapper, not the raw GUI2 WML
20160414 19:04:34 * celticminstrel gets the impression that fabi is trying to imply that anyone who disagrees is an incompetent coder.
20160414 19:04:59< aeth> celticminstrel: This isn't about programming, it's about software engineering, i.e. keeping the system small enough for the small team.
20160414 19:05:07< aeth> different set of skills, although related
20160414 19:05:13< fabi> ^
20160414 19:05:36< celticminstrel> I was referring to fabi's opinion that Wesnoth should be maintained a little longer and then killed.
20160414 19:06:39< aeth> That's how everything outside of very large projects with lots of users and long histories like web browsers, Unix/Windows, etc. works. You have a period of deprecating, and then you replace the older stuff.
20160414 19:06:49< fabi> Indeed.
20160414 19:06:55< fabi> aeth: I like your thinking :-)
20160414 19:07:05< celticminstrel> Um, I'm pretty sure I've said this before too.
20160414 19:07:45< fabi> The thing is:
20160414 19:07:48< celticminstrel> Replacing the preprocessor with a template engine seems fine to me.
20160414 19:07:52< fabi> You get Betriebsblindl.
20160414 19:08:04< celticminstrel> I think it's honestly preferable to replacing it with Lua code.
20160414 19:08:23 * celticminstrel moves "honestly" to precede "think".
20160414 19:08:25< fabi> It took me some time to accept that all the coding work I spend on the engine is going to be flushed down.
20160414 19:08:38< celticminstrel> And I have no idea what fabi said.
20160414 19:08:40< aeth> celticminstrel: There shouldn't really be a Wesnoth. The stuff that Wesnoth does better should become libraries (although this is complicated, because it would require relicensing to get anyone to actually use the libraries... GPL is mostly for applications) and the stuff that Wesnoth does worse should be replaced with a library, with compatibility wrappers to keep the old code working. So, yes, kill Wesnoth.
20160414 19:09:06< fabi> ^
20160414 19:09:08< celticminstrel> aeth: No, that's not the right way of looking at it.
20160414 19:09:15< celticminstrel> "Wesnoth" is the game engine.
20160414 19:09:19< aeth> Although this is more theory than practice, practice will slow down the process, and make some areas impossible even though it's not ideal.
20160414 19:09:41< celticminstrel> Things that are factored out into libraries would no longer be technically a part of Wesnoth, of course - merely used by it.
20160414 19:10:19< celticminstrel> I'm not saying what you've said is a bad idea, just the final sentence doesn't follow.
20160414 19:10:30< aeth> celticminstrel: I am designing a game engine right now (separate project). Imo, there is no such thing as a game engine in the traditional sense unless you have lots and lots of resources. You string together a bunch of libraries. Even Source uses SDL2 afaik.
20160414 19:10:32< fabi> aeth: The new concept that is in development already makes the Wesnoth gameplay to be a lua module executed by a c++ host which is only a very generic hex field engine.
20160414 19:11:57< fabi> aeth: That c++ host is to be supposed to be around 60000 - 80000 lines of code only.
20160414 19:11:59< celticminstrel> Wesnoth does have lots of resources.
20160414 19:12:03< aeth> A good engine, even if it e.g. provides physics, has physics as a "library" and if you wanted to, you can replace it with some other physics engine. (Of course, practicality and performance often get in the way of the ideal design. There probably is no ideal design, and that's ok, it's a goal, not a result.)
20160414 19:12:43< aeth> fabi: Right, good engines use scripting. The engine I am writing will mostly use Common Lisp.
20160414 19:13:09< aeth> There are actually quite a few game engine attempts like this for Common Lisp and Scheme.
20160414 19:13:34< fabi> So the content is also scripted in lisp?
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20160414 19:13:44< celticminstrel> I don't think it's very productive to continuously argue over these things though. If you think the preprocessor should be replaced with a template engine, go do it. If you have an idea of something to replace GUI2, go do it. But I don't think it's worthwhile to replace WML with something else. There's really nothing wrong with WML as a data language in my opinion.
20160414 19:13:54< celticminstrel> (Replacing ActionWML is a different question.)
20160414 19:14:44< aeth> fabi: What I'm probably going to do is implement a sandbox system for the highest level of scripting, which will wind up giving it three layers of language. The native layer (e.g. SDL), the middle layer (Common Lisp), and the scripting layer (currently working on a Scheme-like language here so it'll at least be very similar and compatible)
20160414 19:15:02< aeth> Unfortunately, nearly every language doesn't really sandbox well or at all, and that includes CL
20160414 19:15:20< fabi> Lua is a good sandboxing lanuage.
20160414 19:15:28< aeth> But for the Lisp game jam at the end of this month, I'll just be doing the scripting directly in CL because the scripting layer isn't ready yet.
20160414 19:16:04< aeth> fabi: Lua is a tiny language, and I could probably write a Lua or a Lua clone reusing the same infrastructure I'm using to write a Scheme
20160414 19:16:29< fabi> aeth: Indeed. Lua has a grammar that fits on sheet of paper.
20160414 19:17:20< fabi> aeth: I think that MoonScript, a language that is meta compiled into Lua is a good replacement for WML.
20160414 19:17:42< fabi> aeth: I have already converted a whole campaign into my proposed syntax.
20160414 19:18:01< celticminstrel> If I recall correctly, MoonScript is whitespace-sensitive.
20160414 19:18:02< aeth> What I'll probably wind up offering is a family of languages. I'll probably start with a Scheme and a Lisp subset (Scheme is more about functional programming, not-Scheme Lisp is more about OOP) and move on from there, like Lua or a Python-like clone
20160414 19:18:05< celticminstrel> Thus, worse than Lua.
20160414 19:18:18< fabi> That is a matter of taste. 
20160414 19:18:26< fabi> And no one is forced to use it. 
20160414 19:18:34< celticminstrel> True, and also depends on the exact details of how it's whitespace-sensitive.
20160414 19:18:46< aeth> The only disadvantage I can see for whitespace sensitivity is that refactoring, etc., is harder because it breaks auto-indent that most editors have these days.
20160414 19:18:52< fabi> The ones who don't like white space sensitive language can still use lua and be happy with it.
20160414 19:18:53< celticminstrel> If it's like YML, then that's horrible. If it's like Python, it's acceptable, if not great.
20160414 19:19:22< fabi> celticminstrel: What is the difference between their wss?
20160414 19:19:22< aeth> I have less of a problem with YAML (just config) than Python because with Python, I might want to refactor and code blocks/etc. are indented, but with YAML there's not much refactoring ever.
20160414 19:19:42< aeth> Editors have an easier time with YAML than Python because YAML does less than Python
20160414 19:20:02< celticminstrel> fabi: YML breaks in the presence of tabs.
20160414 19:20:15< celticminstrel> This is bad because most text editors don't distinguish spaces from tabs.
20160414 19:20:18< aeth> Imo, in 2016, no one should be using tabs.
20160414 19:20:27< celticminstrel> I strongly disagree.
20160414 19:20:41< celticminstrel> I think there's no point in using spaces for indentation.
20160414 19:20:50< fabi> In MoonScript a tab is counted as 4 spaces.
20160414 19:21:05< celticminstrel> So, not like YML.
20160414 19:21:18< celticminstrel> Sounds more like Python 2, actually...
20160414 19:21:32< aeth> celticminstrel: The problem is that most code editors use tabs for 4 spaces, but most other things that display tabs have wide tabs, so once you use tabs, you can't really guarantee where the indentation will be, which will break the look of some files
20160414 19:21:46< fabi> The comment is nice: "Should you happen to mix tabs and spaces, a tab is equivalent to 4 spaces. I shouldn’t be telling you this though because you should never do it."
20160414 19:21:48< aeth> iirc, most online code viewers assume a longer tab than most code editors do
20160414 19:22:08< celticminstrel> Yeah, I've noticed that, which is kinda weird if you think about it.
20160414 19:22:13< aeth> And when most code is viewed online, you can't really assume that the user has the power to configure the length of the tab
20160414 19:22:19< celticminstrel> That's true.
20160414 19:22:36< celticminstrel> I'll still continue to use tabs though.
20160414 19:22:54< aeth> I'll still continue to notice tabs every time I view code in the browser.
20160414 19:23:15< aeth> (and probably not before then)
20160414 19:24:46< aeth> fabi: Personally, that should be an error, especially since a lot of places (like most online places where you will read code) use 8 spaces, so that will break the visual flow. Too many things try to pass bad input instead of erroring (HTML is probably the worst and prototypical offender for this)
20160414 19:25:22< celticminstrel> I dunno if that's so bad in HTML...
20160414 19:25:58< aeth> celticminstrel: You can write very, very invalid HTML and the browser will still try to guess what it is. Extremely invalid HTML.
20160414 19:26:01< fabi> Well, I have not noticed any problems myself so far when coding in MoonScript.
20160414 19:26:17< fabi> I very much like the language and don't mind the white space sensitivness.
20160414 19:26:28 * celticminstrel sigh.
20160414 19:26:58< celticminstrel> Everyone wants to push their favourite language on Wesnoth. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.
20160414 19:27:13< fabi> 1. I am not everyone.
20160414 19:27:18< celticminstrel> True.
20160414 19:27:20< aeth> celticminstrel: Once my engine supports Lua, I can port Wesnoth to Common Lisp. Mwahahaha.
20160414 19:27:31< fabi> 2. Indeed. Haskel is not a good idea to use for example.
20160414 19:27:33< celticminstrel> I'm sure at least one person has suggested TCL.
20160414 19:27:35< aeth> Also, fabi is in fact everyone, since I am assuming that everyone else on the Internet is one person, who types very fast.
20160414 19:27:42< celticminstrel> Pft.
20160414 19:27:54< aeth> You can't prove that that's not the case.
20160414 19:27:56< aeth> :-p
20160414 19:28:02< fabi> I am not pushing my favourite language. 
20160414 19:28:33< fabi> My favourite language is functional stuff like Haskel.
20160414 19:28:37< celticminstrel> So then, why MoonScript instead of Lua?
20160414 19:28:46< fabi> But that is not suitable for Wesnoth.
20160414 19:28:56< fabi> I searched a long time for a good replacement.
20160414 19:29:09< fabi> So MoonScript is the result of a longer process.
20160414 19:29:10< celticminstrel> It's also funny that people say functional stuff is not suitable for Wesnoth, even though it contains the functional formula language.
20160414 19:29:27< celticminstrel> But, why MoonScript instead of Lua?
20160414 19:29:30-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host86-167-29-78.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has left #wesnoth ["Leaving"]
20160414 19:29:39< aeth> fabi: If you're interested in writing a functional game in an impure language like e.g. Scheme, you should consider participating the Lisp game jam that's coming up. https://itch.io/jam/spring-2016-lisp-game-jam
20160414 19:30:01< aeth> This game jam is why I do not expect to make progress on my add-on this month. I'm too busy preparing libraries for it.
20160414 19:30:04< fabi> Not instead of Lua.
20160414 19:30:13< fabi> MoonScript can be used beside Lua.
20160414 19:30:19< celticminstrel> That almost makes it worse.
20160414 19:30:36< celticminstrel> Let me rephrase then. Why not just Lua?
20160414 19:30:39< aeth> celticminstrel: Like it or not, Wesnoth is a Lua game, whose future is in Lua, which restricts our options to stuff in the Lua ecosystem.
20160414 19:30:41< fabi> MoonScript offers a much less verbose table constructor syntax.
20160414 19:30:56< celticminstrel> Hmmm. I don't see it.
20160414 19:31:24< fabi> it also declares every variable local
20160414 19:31:28< celticminstrel> So it loses the braces. That's not "much less verbose", only "slightly less verbose".
20160414 19:31:32< fabi> variable = "foobar"
20160414 19:31:37< celticminstrel> That's awful.
20160414 19:31:47< fabi> That is great.
20160414 19:31:53< celticminstrel> Python does that too, and it's terrible.
20160414 19:31:59< aeth> Wesnoth's macro system could be replaced with this: https://github.com/Olivine-Labs/lustache
20160414 19:32:07< aeth> This is the only pure-Lua template engine I could find.
20160414 19:32:20< fabi> Wesnoth's macro engine can be just replaced by Lua functions.
20160414 19:32:30< aeth> fabi: this isn't too far off
20160414 19:32:39< celticminstrel> aeth: Why does it need to be restricted to pure-Lua template engines?
20160414 19:32:59< aeth> celticminstrel: Using a C++ template engine will restrict Wesnoth's options later on
20160414 19:33:09< celticminstrel> Huh?
20160414 19:33:32< fabi> Lua was designed to be a configuration language.
20160414 19:33:49< celticminstrel> We're talking about WML right now, I thought.
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20160414 19:34:17< fabi> I don't see the need to use a template engine on top of it.
20160414 19:34:31< celticminstrel> I think that's better than using code to define data, honestly.
20160414 19:35:09< fabi> And why?
20160414 19:35:21< aeth> celticminstrel: Unless speed is the critical element of a feature in discussion, it should be written in Lua imo. Wesnoth programming demands two skillsets, C++ and Lua, and so writing something in Lua draws from a broader group of people because Lua is a simpler language.
20160414 19:35:40< celticminstrel> aeth: So are you proposing porting the WML parser to Lua now?
20160414 19:36:10< fabi> aeth: I have already done that.
20160414 19:36:12< aeth> celticminstrel: isn't the macro system a *pre*-processor?
20160414 19:36:15-!- ancestral [~ancestral@209.181.254.220] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160414 19:36:24< fabi> aeth: My WSL parser is written in MoonScript.
20160414 19:36:50< celticminstrel> aeth: ...I feel like I'm missing something obvious here.
20160414 19:36:54< aeth> celticminstrel: Can't you just call into Lua (which Wesnoth already uses) to use the Lua-based template system instead of macros, and leave the rest the same.
20160414 19:37:28< aeth> Template engines are designed to output HTML, to then feed web browsers, after all.
20160414 19:37:51< celticminstrel> I'm not sure, it probably depends on when exactly the Lua kernel is initialized. (Or would require initializing a special Lua kernel just for the parsing).
20160414 19:38:23< fabi> All that proposals just add extra layers of complexity.
20160414 19:38:30< celticminstrel> At the moment, I think if you want to use that template language, a C++ implementation would be better. It could then be switched to a Lua implementation later, without any compatibility breaks, if it became feasible.
20160414 19:38:49< fabi> Lua alone is perfectly suited to be a data storage, configuration and scripting language.
20160414 19:38:59< fabi> Those were the design goals of it.
20160414 19:38:59< aeth> celticminstrel: There probably should be a separate Lua running for a game vs. outside a game, and I think that only the former probably exists right now afaik
20160414 19:39:08< aeth> celticminstrel: That way you can write e.g. the menus in Lua GUI2 instead of C++ GUI2
20160414 19:39:18< aeth> Or some parts of the editor, for instance.
20160414 19:39:24< celticminstrel> aeth: I know there's an "application Lua kernel" used for plugins, but I have no idea when that's initialized.
20160414 19:39:36< aeth> ah
20160414 19:39:52< celticminstrel> I'm not even quite sure what "plugins" means.
20160414 19:40:05< celticminstrel> I think this kernel is accessible from the title screen.
20160414 19:40:45< aeth> C++ should be for data structures, for code that needs to be fast, etc. Everything that's even remotely high level should be in Lua or WML imo. There shouldn't even be a C++ GUI except as exporting the API to Lua.
20160414 19:41:17< aeth> Engine writing and scripting are different skillsets, and the scripters shouldn't have to touch the C++ engine at all.
20160414 19:41:23< fabi> Note that Lua is a very fast scripting language.
20160414 19:41:35< fabi> But I agree with everything you said.
20160414 19:41:40< celticminstrel> That may be so, but I suspect C++ is still faster.
20160414 19:41:48< fabi> Only a little bit.
20160414 19:41:57 * celticminstrel shrug.
20160414 19:42:00< fabi> And we do not need the latest bit of speed in most cases.
20160414 19:42:09< fabi> Only pathfinding is critical.
20160414 19:42:10< celticminstrel> There are probably a few places where it's more than just a little bit.
20160414 19:42:21< loonycyborg> I don't think it's only matter of speed
20160414 19:42:23< celticminstrel> Yeah, pathfinding could be one, or attack maps.
20160414 19:42:24< aeth> celticminstrel: Wesnoth is a 2D game, not a AAA FPS and/or MMORPG. Even the latter probably separate off scripting, because they probably have a division of labor where the people who do scripting don't even have engine access.
20160414 19:42:49< aeth> Besides, pressing F5 on the home screen allows for much faster development iteration than recompiling.
20160414 19:42:53 * celticminstrel waits for loonycyborg to elaborate.
20160414 19:42:55< loonycyborg> it's also matter of ensuring that you provide a logically consistent api to lua
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20160414 19:43:31< aeth> Pathfinding is one thing that needs to stay in the engine, the OpenGL code (assuming a port comes) is another.
20160414 19:43:32< loonycyborg> only provide something that people would want to change without recompiling
20160414 19:43:50< loonycyborg> internal details should remain in C++
20160414 19:43:57< loonycyborg> no point to make stuff slower
20160414 19:44:44< aeth> loonycyborg: Yes, but afaik right now the GUI stuff is written in a pairing of C++ functions and WML (although extensions use what's exposed to the Lua API)... The GUI stuff is very high level. GUIs should just be calling into functions written elsewhere, whether native or Lua
20160414 19:44:58< aeth> I mean, really, the UI is the highest level of the application
20160414 19:46:10< aeth> loonycyborg: Also, C++ isn't a magical ticket to being fast. Switching to Lua might speed some stuff up if it also improves the architecture too.
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20160414 19:47:20< aeth> Obviously there are quite a few things that shouldn't be done in Lua. I'll add networking to the list
20160414 19:47:26< fabi> ^
20160414 19:47:58< fabi> I like to keep threading out of the Lua part.
20160414 19:48:11< fabi> The c++ host can thread for multiple reasons.
20160414 19:48:14< celticminstrel> Lua does understand threading, I think.
20160414 19:48:24< celticminstrel> Though I don't know much about how that works.
20160414 19:48:24< fabi> But all lua code shall all be linear.
20160414 19:48:29< loonycyborg> There is one thing in common between gui and networking
20160414 19:48:39< loonycyborg> designing proper control flow is challenging
20160414 19:48:42< celticminstrel> No, I wouldn't say all Lua code should be linear.
20160414 19:48:57< celticminstrel> It has coroutines, after all.
20160414 19:49:01< loonycyborg> because procedural programming paradigm doesn't fit with both very well
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20160414 19:51:34< celticminstrel> So aeth, what do you think WML would look like if it started using lustache instead of the current preprocessor?
20160414 19:51:35< fabi> Most ready to use gui systems already come with a lua scripting interface.
20160414 19:51:42< loonycyborg> with both networking and gui you don't have a hierarchy of tasks that call each other
20160414 19:52:00< aeth> loonycyborg: GUIs are not quite as hard in Lua because Lua has first class functions.
20160414 19:52:03< loonycyborg> instead you have events that must be handled
20160414 19:52:07< aeth> Languages like Lua are great for this sort of thing
20160414 19:52:24< fabi> Crazy Eddie for example.
20160414 19:52:24< aeth> loonycyborg: The events themselves, that's at a lower level, and probably would be in C++
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20160414 19:52:32< loonycyborg> and procedural languages don't have native primitives for handling events
20160414 19:52:47< loonycyborg> no, that's the whole point
20160414 19:52:49< celticminstrel> I don't really see how it could replace macros...
20160414 19:53:02< loonycyborg> events are heart of the program
20160414 19:53:12< aeth> Afaik, modern C/C++ game engines are all about pairing with scripting, not being written entirely in scripting.
20160414 19:53:57< loonycyborg> while the framework that organizes this event handling must be abstracted
20160414 19:55:07< aeth> celticminstrel: I'm not yet sure if that library is powerful enough to replace macros. I found it the last time we had this discussion, a few weeks ago, but haven't looked into it in depth
20160414 19:55:21< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160414 19:56:31< aeth> celticminstrel: ideally it would just replace {FOO} with {{foo}} naively, and mostly require rewrites of the macro definitions, and enable more power
20160414 19:56:55< celticminstrel> It sort of looks like a nice library in some ways, but from the README I can't see how it could be a substitute... mainly the question being one of how to define the macros, I guess.
20160414 19:57:16< aeth> It looks like it's a port of a cross-language thing. https://mustache.github.io/
20160414 19:57:26< aeth> interesting, it's even in Common Lisp
20160414 19:57:37< celticminstrel> Yeah, I got that. I see there's a C++ implementationt too.
20160414 19:57:52< celticminstrel> Pffft, its channel is #{
20160414 19:58:03< celticminstrel> And Colloquy doesn't hilite that as a channel.
20160414 19:58:39< aeth> TIL that's a legal channel name
20160414 19:59:03< celticminstrel> Might depend on the network though.
20160414 19:59:27< aeth> legal IRC nicks are determined universally, e.g. []
20160414 19:59:42< aeth> idk about channels
20160414 20:00:26< celticminstrel> Nicks are [A-}_-][A-}0-9_-]+
20160414 20:00:51< celticminstrel> Oh wait, that underscore is redundant since it's included in the range A-}
20160414 20:01:30< celticminstrel> I think channels can contain almost anything.
20160414 20:01:56< celticminstrel> ...I forget, maybe ~ is also allowed in nicks?
20160414 20:02:06< celticminstrel> Pretty sure @ is not, though.
20160414 20:02:42< aeth> I used to use '/ or /' (I can't remember which) but someone stole it when I didn't use it periodically enough
20160414 20:03:01< aeth> I'd much rather use a network where nicks drop than Freenode's nick-steal system, it just makes me hate people
20160414 20:03:28< celticminstrel> You mean where registered nicks expire if not used for awhile?
20160414 20:03:34< aeth> they don't
20160414 20:03:43< aeth> on Freenode, people can just claim them iirc, unless that changed
20160414 20:03:53< celticminstrel> Yeah, I think that's the case on Freenode.
20160414 20:04:13< aeth> Oh, I think I used ` instead of '
20160414 20:04:22< aeth> maybe `\
20160414 20:04:23< celticminstrel> If it was a nick, then yeah, it would have to be `
20160414 20:04:25< aeth> idk, it's been a while
20160414 20:05:29< aeth> The problem is, such noise names are basically unusable. No one knows what to call you.
20160414 20:05:35< aeth> At least if you're an ascii face, you're "face"
20160414 20:07:48< aeth> I think mustache might be too minimalist for it to be a useful templating engine here
20160414 20:07:54< aeth> not sure yet... the docs aren't that good
20160414 20:13:09< aeth> it's a shame because it *almost* looks like a drop-in replacement, just changing {foo} to {{foo}} within a template
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 15 00:00:23 2016