--- Log opened Fri Apr 15 00:00:23 2016
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20160415 01:40:57< aeth> I might have to steal fabi's idea of making one 400x400 map
20160415 01:41:10< aeth> all of my maps could fit on one epic-sized map
20160415 01:41:38< fabi> aeth: :-)
20160415 01:41:44< aeth> they connect well too
20160415 01:42:05< fabi> aeth: Do you want to see a screenshot of my map?
20160415 01:42:10< aeth> The woods map has a desert corner, so does one of my dungeons. It has a cave river, so does one of my dungeons. It has a river in the west, so does another one of my maps
20160415 01:43:06< DeFender1031> and here i thought i was cool for creating a 31x198 map for a multi-level castle map using teleports for the stairs...
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20160415 01:53:13< aeth> DeFender1031: to be fair, I'm merging 6 medium-to-large maps that I made slowly over the course of 4+ years
20160415 01:53:28< aeth> DeFender1031: And I still have lots of empty space to fill in
20160415 01:54:58< aeth> and I can only do this because I haven't added any map-specific logic yet, like unit spawns (other than starting locations)
20160415 01:56:37< aeth> and I have been making maps since around 2001-2002 or so (although obviously not on Wesnoth)
20160415 01:57:15< DeFender1031> wow
20160415 01:59:00< DeFender1031> aeth, for most of my maps i just draw the large features and then throw a bunch of appropriate terrain into each area and use the terrain randomizer to mix it up, and they take me an hour at most.
20160415 01:59:11< DeFender1031> (my aforementioned castle is a different story)
20160415 02:00:08< aeth> DeFender1031: what I usually do is I start with a tiny map and resize it larger. The only exception is my most recent, which I started at 120x90, although I ignored most of the map for a long time
20160415 02:00:21< DeFender1031> interesting
20160415 02:00:23< aeth> DeFender1031: I never random generate anything, but I often doodle large chunks of terrain.
20160415 02:00:28< aeth> I just doodle until it looks right
20160415 02:00:49< aeth> Roughly looks like the random generator, it doesn't need to be pretty, I do a second (and third etc.) pass over it until all the details are filled
20160415 02:00:50< DeFender1031> the editor doesn't seem to even let you go larger than 200x200 in its interface
20160415 02:01:09< DeFender1031> also, does wesnoth not begin to have performance issues with maps which are too large?
20160415 02:01:10< aeth> it does not, which is unfortunate, because it looks like it's a few hexes too narrow for me to merge more than 2 maps together
20160415 02:01:39< aeth> DeFender1031: of course it has performance issues, that's why in real games with large maps, they break it into tiles, and you don't need to load the whole thing at once
20160415 02:01:54< DeFender1031> aeth, you could always write a script which resizes your map files for you...
20160415 02:02:04< DeFender1031> (if you know how to do such things)
20160415 02:02:25< DeFender1031> aeth, what do you mean by "break it into tiles"?
20160415 02:02:31< aeth> the problem is adding width to the left (and I think also adding height) messes up the mountains, villages, etc.
20160415 02:02:47< aeth> Wesnoth has a rather stupid system where you can only micromanage the large mountains if it is a volcano
20160415 02:03:53< DeFender1031> wow, your attention to detail is far keener than mine... for the most part, i don't particulary care what specific terrain graphic is used at what specific hex, it generally all looks good to me
20160415 02:04:27< DeFender1031> (i kind of view that as a feature, rather than a stupid system, but i hear how it could be frustrating for someone who wants it to be exact)
20160415 02:05:04< aeth> extremely
20160415 02:05:11< aeth> every time I change the map, the volcano count increases
20160415 02:05:12< aeth> :P
20160415 02:05:50< DeFender1031> i do have one case actually where i need a specific terrain graphic in a specific spot (a mountaintop fortress where the peak pokes up through the center) but i'll just code that special into the scenario using that map. sounds like you want things to look right with the pure map codes and no special WML additions
20160415 02:06:38< aeth> especially since there's not one large mountain, there's several hundred to thousands
20160415 02:06:43< aeth> no way in hell am I going to micro that
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20160415 02:09:31< DeFender1031> aeth, yeah, i hear you
20160415 02:11:43< DeFender1031> aeth, if you like making maps, i dare you to make the most massive map (i'm thinking like 5 or 10 thousand hexes in each direction) which depicts either all of wesnoth or if you're REALLY adventerous, the entire known world
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20160415 02:12:54< DeFender1031> (oh and which incorporates the existing maps which are of specific known areas from mainline, obviously)
20160415 02:13:41< aeth> DeFender1031: I think there's a hardcoded limit that's more than 200x200 but less than several thousand
20160415 02:14:24< DeFender1031> :/
20160415 02:14:31< DeFender1031> (though it DOES make sense)
20160415 02:15:09< DeFender1031> my wife was actually surprised that such a thing didn't exist and i had to explain to her that it would be a massive amount of work and probably unusable in its full size anyway.
20160415 02:18:57< DeFender1031> (it would be beautiful though...)
20160415 02:18:58< aeth> DeFender1031: A large map would need a different engine. If you had an RPG on such a map, you'd only want to load the NPCs, enemies, and hexes near the player(s)
20160415 02:19:16< DeFender1031> of course.
20160415 02:19:38< aeth> Also, the Wesnoth map engine looks ugly unless it's (1) a huge expanse outside or (2) a cave
20160415 02:19:56< aeth> A 2D RPG of a similar size would probably have things like large buildings rather than buildings the size of a hex
20160415 02:19:56< DeFender1031> probably also some method of not allowing scrolling beyond a certain distance from the characters.
20160415 02:20:52< DeFender1031> right. it doesn't scale well to more close-up environments.
20160415 02:22:11< DeFender1031> (though you could always set up large expanses where entering villages triggers a replace_map call and create your own terrain graphics for the finer scale... but again, that requires micromanaging the map events which would be way more work than you want)
20160415 02:22:47< aeth> No, what you'd want is more than one map in one scenario. You could shrink the map quite a bit by moving caves, buildings, etc., onto smaller maps that are only loaded if a player is in one of them
20160415 02:23:12< aeth> as much as half of a map could be in a cave, which instantly could halve a map (or at least give more wilderness to wander around in)
20160415 02:23:19< aeth> And one of the awkward transitions is outside to cave
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20160415 02:43:02< aeth> it looks like I might want "only" 400x200
20160415 03:03:46< DeFender1031> "only"
20160415 03:04:13< DeFender1031> yeah, and i "only" want to make a billion dollars before i retire.
20160415 03:04:16< DeFender1031> :P
20160415 03:07:17< DeFender1031> aeth, how is "more than one map in one scenario" for "caves, buildings, etc." that you "only load if a player is in one of them" different from what i said about triggering a replace_map when a player enters one of those things?
20160415 03:10:11< celticminstrel> ...DeFender1031, what's this about a terrain randomizer? I think my method of making maps is closer to aeth's (though I don't make such large ones). Also aeth, I'm sure you could fairly easily create a "large mountain" terrain which is mechanically identical to a normal mountain (or possibly mountain with clouds) but conforms like a volcano... though I'm not sure if there's graphics for it...
20160415 03:10:44< aeth> DeFender1031: because it would remember state at the engine level, assuming you want to be able to go back to the old stuff
20160415 03:11:06< aeth> not just terrain, but also units, etc
20160415 03:11:10< celticminstrel> The only time I tried making a really large map was when I tried using Wesnoth to create a map for one of my fictional settings. I eventually gave up on it, possibly because the map editor was too slow (and this was probably only 200x200, since I didn't do anything to artificially make it bigger).
20160415 03:11:14< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, in the map editor, if you use the selection tool to highlight a bunch of hexes and then either right-click or use the toolbar, there's an option to "Randomize tiles in this selection" which basically shuffles everything selected within the selected area.
20160415 03:11:19< aeth> DeFender1031: it would have to require something between a map and a scenario
20160415 03:11:29< celticminstrel> Ooh, that sounds useful.
20160415 03:11:42< celticminstrel> aeth: Like what?
20160415 03:11:48< DeFender1031> aeth, ah, that's what you mean. yes, the engine doesn't have a way to do that, you'd have to manually program your WML to track state at any map change.
20160415 03:12:10< DeFender1031> (though store_unit without a filter would get you pretty far on that one)
20160415 03:12:40< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i'm surprised you never noticed the feature...
20160415 03:13:08< celticminstrel> Me too. Unless it's new in 1.12.
20160415 03:14:25< aeth> DeFender1031: and generally, "you'd have to manually program your WML to..." leads to a hard time, especially when something is huge. e.g. Bob the Mighty's RPGs take forever to save
20160415 03:15:01< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i actually still have 1.10 on here too, let me check if it was there...
20160415 03:15:03< celticminstrel> Does he use event IDs to keep common events manageable?
20160415 03:15:17< celticminstrel> eg, any event in a [unit_type] should have an ID.
20160415 03:17:04 * celticminstrel wonders if moving unit ability / weapon special definitions to be directly under [units] would break many things.
20160415 03:17:05< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, okay, just checked, the feature is in 1.10 but it's much harder to find. You have to select a bunch of stuff and then the randomize option is in the edit menu on top. apparently right click in selection mode in 1.10 was deselect rather than context menu, and the interface on the right wasn't nearly as good.
20160415 03:17:20< DeFender1031> aeth, agreed.
20160415 03:18:01< celticminstrel> ...I think it would break leadership. :/
20160415 03:18:12< celticminstrel> Unless you can define multiple with the same ID...
20160415 03:19:10< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, in 1.12 on the other hand, randomize is both in the right-click context menu and in the panel along the top.
20160415 03:23:22< celticminstrel> Traits could also be defined globally under [units]... (all of them, not just the common traits)
20160415 03:24:24< celticminstrel> With that, you could get rid of all the trait macros, all the weapon special macros, and all but one of the ability macros.
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20160415 03:26:27< celticminstrel> Which means that there would only be one copy of each ability, special, and trait, instead of each race, unit type, and unit instance having its own copy.
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20160415 03:30:14< aeth> yes please
20160415 03:30:28< aeth> trait and ability macros are an ugly hack, especially if you want to use them in Lua somehow
20160415 03:30:35< aeth> iirc, I save some abilities as WML variables
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20160415 03:34:24< celticminstrel> I think from Lua the traits, abilities, and specials would probably look the same as they do now...
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20160415 03:35:02< celticminstrel> In C++, maybe they'd be stored as an array of pointers?
20160415 03:35:23< celticminstrel> Unit instances might still contain a full copy of traits that they have, but races and unit types wouldn't...
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20160415 03:36:02< celticminstrel> And you'd write "abilities=heal,cure" or something rather than putting stuff in [abilities] (but of course the latter would still be supported).
20160415 03:36:42< celticminstrel> The hardest part is probably saved games...
20160415 03:37:08< celticminstrel> I guess it would match the ID to known abilities / specials and only write the full definition if the ID is unknown.
20160415 03:38:08< celticminstrel> Which could break things if someone copied an ability/special and modified it without changing the ID.
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20160415 04:07:13< aeth> My world definitely feels more alive when it's at 400x200. I just hope that it can run well enough when it's so large
20160415 04:07:55< celticminstrel> Of course, concatenating maps north-south is far easier than concatenating them west-east.
20160415 04:08:19< aeth> Which is why I did 400x200, not 200x400
20160415 04:08:55< aeth> I probably could've gotten away with 160 or so, though
20160415 04:09:42< aeth> I had to basically paste every map on Gg, ..., Gg map because appending would have been too hard.
20160415 04:09:51< aeth> I don't want to do that again
20160415 04:09:59< celticminstrel> Huh?
20160415 04:10:31< aeth> celticminstrel: I cut/paste Gg, then Gg, Gg, etc. until I got it to be 402 wide, then I did the lines
20160415 04:10:45< aeth> Then I used in-editor copy/paste to paste in the maps
20160415 04:10:52< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160415 04:11:14< aeth> Any further widening wouldn't be trivial without scripting
20160415 04:11:23< celticminstrel> I wonder if it's safe to resize a map in the editor when it's over the max size in one dimension but not both.
20160415 04:11:46< aeth> it scales it down to 200 at the too-big dimension
20160415 04:11:49< celticminstrel> (Assuming you're resizing it in the dimension that's under the max.)
20160415 04:11:52< celticminstrel> Ah, so it's not.
20160415 04:11:57< aeth> Adding rows is trivial, though
20160415 04:12:11< aeth> Most Unix tools are line-oriented
20160415 04:12:26< aeth> You can probably add rows in 500 ways, if not more
20160415 04:13:15< aeth> I think even ed would work well there
20160415 04:13:25< celticminstrel> cat
20160415 04:15:23< aeth> What I did is C-k, C-y in emacs, cutting more lines each time with C-u # C-k. Exponentials means it grows fast, no need for scripting
20160415 04:15:41< aeth> 1, 2, 10, 100, ...
20160415 04:15:48< celticminstrel> Is that like "select all, copy, paste, paste"?
20160415 04:16:14< aeth> celticminstrel: more like select n lines, cut, paste
20160415 04:16:38< aeth> You can append to the bottom without affecting the top parts
20160415 04:16:57< celticminstrel> Sounds like "cut" is the wrong word.
20160415 04:17:09< aeth> no, it's cut. C-k means kill
20160415 04:17:10< celticminstrel> "copy, paste, paste" is equivalent to "copy, move to end, paste".
20160415 04:17:18< aeth> C-y means yank
20160415 04:17:31< celticminstrel> Well, if it's cut, you still need to paste twice in order to double it.
20160415 04:18:03< aeth> You're right, C-y is repeated, I just didn't write that part, apparently
20160415 04:18:16< aeth> C-u # C-k, C-y C-y...
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20160415 04:18:59< aeth> Technically if you're appending to the end you can just put in a large number like 999 where you know you'll hit the end first
20160415 04:19:10< celticminstrel> "copy, paste, paste" is also the same as "cut, paste, paste".
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20160415 04:19:43< aeth> Well, with cut here you know exactly how much you have... so it's useful
20160415 04:19:45 * celticminstrel incidentally doesn't use emacs, though it was taught in one of my university classes.
20160415 04:20:08< aeth> I use emacs because it's the only decent Lisp IDE.
20160415 04:20:45< celticminstrel> I guess it's reasonable to use it if you're doing Lisp. I suppose even I might use it for that.
20160415 04:20:45< aeth> Using it for non-Lisp stuff is probably like using Eclipse for non-Java stuff. It works but a lot of the nice features aren't available.
20160415 04:20:57< celticminstrel> Though I'd probably get some GUI version of it or something.
20160415 04:21:09< aeth> I use the GUI version, it comes with one.
20160415 04:21:18< aeth> Probably since 1999 or so :p
20160415 04:21:26< celticminstrel> On which platform?
20160415 04:21:31< celticminstrel> Doesn't come with one on OSX.
20160415 04:21:34< celticminstrel> I think.
20160415 04:21:35< aeth> anywhere whrte there's X
20160415 04:21:41< aeth> which wouldn't be OSX
20160415 04:21:50< celticminstrel> There's X on OSX, but that's no good anyway.
20160415 04:22:21< celticminstrel> Well okay, since 10.7 (or maybe 10.6?) it's not actually bundled with the OS, though.
20160415 04:22:24< aeth> You are probably using a 5+ year old version of emacs on OSX, before a lot of nice things. Iirc, Apple doesn't ship GPLv3 software
20160415 04:22:42< celticminstrel> Except for the fact that I'm not actually using it. :P
20160415 04:22:56< aeth> There is an emacs GUI that tries to be OS X native... Aquamacs?
20160415 04:23:23< aeth> http://aquamacs.org/
20160415 04:23:34< celticminstrel> I've heard of such a GUI, yeah. Didn't care enough to actually investigate though.
20160415 04:23:48< celticminstrel> Apparently I only have the default /usr/bin/emacs, so yeah, an old version.
20160415 04:24:03< aeth> Emacs is good the closer to Lisp the language gets, so e.g. anything with a REPL isn't bad.
20160415 04:24:17< celticminstrel> So, Python or even Lua.
20160415 04:24:18< aeth> The Java experience in emacs is terrible. C# is probably worse.
20160415 04:24:34< celticminstrel> for some reason my Lua REPL doesn't use readline though, which is annoying.
20160415 04:24:37< aeth> C probably isn't that bad since emacs is written in C and elisp
20160415 04:24:46< celticminstrel> ^For
20160415 04:25:30< aeth> celticminstrel: unless you do the vim mode of readline, the nice stuff in readline you're used to is emulating emacs, e.g. C-a, C-e, etc.
20160415 04:25:44< aeth> Except C-u, which is repeat instead of clear line
20160415 04:25:53< celticminstrel> No, C-u is clear line.
20160415 04:25:56< DeFender1031> aeth, i'm disappointed that the OS X port of emacs isn't called "Macmacs".
20160415 04:26:04< celticminstrel> Well, that's not quite accurate.
20160415 04:26:09< aeth> celticminstrel: In emacs it's repeat, I mean
20160415 04:26:12< celticminstrel> It's "clear from insertion point to beginning of line".
20160415 04:26:23< aeth> C-u 30 ! would print 30 !s
20160415 04:26:26< aeth> in emacs
20160415 04:26:33< celticminstrel> Weird.
20160415 04:27:06< celticminstrel> MacPorts clearly lists readline as a dependency for Lua, so I don't understand why it seems to not be compiled into it.
20160415 04:27:54< aeth> emacs REPLs are often the main way to get readline-like experiences on REPLs that don't use/clone readline... so ironically, the non-GPL languages with repls (readline is purposefully GPL to try to infect languages with its viral copyleft)
20160415 04:28:51< aeth> It's easier to install a package (recent versions have that, so not the OS X one) for a language than to do some hacky workaround for in-terminal use... and you get more features
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20160415 04:30:19< aeth> celticminstrel: If you wonder why so many REPLs are broken, blame rms's politics and failed plan. Only a few languages went GPL to use readline. The only one I know of is clisp, which is dead in part because of its license
20160415 04:31:08< celticminstrel> I'm perfectly willing to blame rms for something like this.
20160415 04:31:27< celticminstrel> Somehow I got rms confused with esr recently. Whoops.
20160415 04:31:28< aeth> RMS has an essay where he says he made readline GPL to force more software to be GPL. I guess in the 90s it was GPL vs. closed source but now it is mainly used to mess up about 90% of open source languages in terminals
20160415 04:32:29< aeth> Make a dynamic language (with a REPL) GPL and it's dead before it gets any users.
20160415 04:32:59< celticminstrel> rms is just annoying, I'd prefer to ignore him and all the other open source zealots.
20160415 04:33:01< aeth> So it's kind of funny how one of the easiest ways to get a decent REPL and circumvent rms's scheme is by using rms's editor
20160415 04:33:28< aeth> celticminstrel: I hope calling rms an open source zealot is intentional
20160415 04:33:30< celticminstrel> I'm confused though, why would it be dead before it gets any users?
20160415 04:34:04< celticminstrel> Why do you hope it's intentional?
20160415 04:34:17< celticminstrel> Normally I'd expect someone to say "I hope it's unintentional".
20160415 04:35:16< aeth> he hates the phrase 'open source', preferring 'free software'. Probably 99.99% of English speakers will think "freeware" when they hear "free software" but he won't change the term
20160415 04:35:35< aeth> idk if search engines have the FSF on the first page of "free software"
20160415 04:35:53< celticminstrel> Oh right, I forgot about that.
20160415 04:36:07< celticminstrel> Still confused at "hope it's intentional".
20160415 04:36:18< celticminstrel> And the thing about being dead before getting users.
20160415 04:36:29< aeth> celticminstrel: because it would be a perfect troll
20160415 04:36:59< celticminstrel> I think I have to disappoint you, as I didn't intentionally use the term "open source" to troll him.
20160415 04:37:10< celticminstrel> I used it only because it's the term I always use for open source.
20160415 04:37:31< celticminstrel> I did intentionally choose the word "zealot", though.
20160415 04:37:34< aeth> celticminstrel: Afaik, a dynamic (not necessarily interpeted) language licensed as GPL will basically be viral on all derivative software, i.e. all software written in it.
20160415 04:37:51< celticminstrel> Oh, I see what you mean.
20160415 04:37:51< aeth> The standard library would essentially be GPL.
20160415 04:39:04< celticminstrel> So basically you wouldn't be able to create non-GPL programms written in that language?
20160415 04:39:04< aeth> There would be ways around it if you wanted to use readline, but why bother? e.g. Haskell clones readline, the BSDs clone readline, etc. It's not worth working around
20160415 04:39:37< aeth> celticminstrel: Afaik, yes. At least enough people would think that so you'd get sued. AGPL would be more clear there.
20160415 04:41:57< aeth> There is a GPL version of Java, but with a "classpath exception". Most languages under copyleft would use LGPL, probably. Most languages don't bother with copyleft.
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20160415 04:43:18< aeth> celticminstrel: and btw, it would be the perfect troll because it seemed accidental, which is what it was, but that's also what perfect trolling is
20160415 04:43:43< aeth> not like I should encourage trolling in #wesnoth, that's a bad thing here
20160415 04:43:59< aeth> "good" trolling is very bad
20160415 04:49:11< aeth> The worst part, though, is that good trolls regenerate, so it's very hard to get rid of them unless you risk several mages or other high-damage units.
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20160415 04:59:39< celticminstrel> Heh.
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20160415 06:10:40< celticminstrel> I wonder what female orc names might be like.
20160415 06:15:54< DeFender1031> "Urthukina"
20160415 06:16:38< DeFender1031> "Vrukella"
20160415 06:18:37< celticminstrel> I see you're favouring names ending with -a
20160415 06:18:50< DeFender1031> Many female names do...
20160415 06:18:59< DeFender1031> but mostly i was being funny
20160415 06:19:04< celticminstrel> Depends on the language.
20160415 06:19:19< DeFender1031> i suppose that's true
20160415 06:21:46< celticminstrel> Kwandulin also brought up the idea that orcs might have a high male-female ratio, since (according to goblin descriptions) they have litters.
20160415 06:21:58< celticminstrel> (Not directly relevant to how they're named, mind you.)
20160415 06:22:03< celticminstrel> (Probably.)
20160415 06:23:08< DeFender1031> right
20160415 06:25:55< Kwandulin> i'd expect them to have names like "Mother Bashuk" in case there are only a few females
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20160415 06:34:12< celticminstrel> Sounds like a decent idea.
20160415 06:35:03< celticminstrel> So, similar to male names, but with an extra "title" or similar?
20160415 06:35:26< Kwandulin> right
20160415 06:39:14< celticminstrel> Calling girls "mother" might be weird though.
20160415 06:39:54< celticminstrel> I wonder if goblins can be female.
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20160415 06:49:38< celticminstrel> I imagine dwarves and possibly saurians use the same naming conventions for both genders.
20160415 06:50:50< celticminstrel> Oh, ogres also lack female names... meh, don't care enough about them.
20160415 06:51:01< celticminstrel> Maybe they too can just use the same naming conventions for both genders.
20160415 06:51:22< celticminstrel> Assuming of course that they have both genders. Which is probably but not proven.
20160415 06:51:26< celticminstrel> ^probable
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20160415 07:03:15< celticminstrel> The Khalifate names (at least with the Markov generator) use both Arabic apostrophe lookalikes...
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20160415 07:05:13< Kwandulin> i doubt female names for goblins/orcs/khalifate are in any way relevant for (current) wesnoth
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20160415 07:07:32< celticminstrel> I'm not sure female names for drakes are relevant either.
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20160415 12:25:33< Shiki> Hello
20160415 12:26:28< Shiki> Does anybody know when the script for making the unitstree at units.wesnoth.org runs?
20160415 12:29:14< zookeeper> elias, ^ ?
20160415 12:29:46< Soliton> around midnight on thursday or friday depending on what version you mean.
20160415 12:31:04-!- fabi_ [~quassel@176.0.32.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160415 12:31:09< Shiki> I mean the stable
20160415 12:32:00< Soliton> friday then.
20160415 12:32:16-!- fabi_ [~quassel@176.0.32.160] has joined #wesnoth
20160415 12:32:22< Shiki> So today, great. Thanks
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20160415 13:38:56< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I know I'm over a year too late for this, and you probably don't recall the conversation at all but when I was very new here, I checked my chat logs because I once asked in here what add ons are good, and you said that "Invasion from the Unknown" seems universally well liked. Another user named "lipkab" replied that not everyone likes it, and said that shadowm hates it, and you replied that "he's like that". At the 
20160415 13:38:57< DeFender1031> time, I just assumed that he was the grumpy odd-man-out, but just now I went to install it and I see that shadowm is the creator of IftU, so now i'm very confused at what that conversation was about. Was lipkab just being funny? Or am I reading too much into a year-and-three-month-old chat log and should just go on with my life?
20160415 13:39:40< DeFender1031> *but I checked my chat logs because when I was very new here,
20160415 13:49:35< zookeeper> shadowm is just so modest that he likes to disparage his own add-ons, that's all
20160415 13:50:06< zookeeper> he'll say it's crap while everyone else likes it
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20160415 15:02:54< DeFender1031> zookeeper, one of those own-worst-critic types, huh?
20160415 15:03:08< zookeeper> probably
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20160415 15:26:03-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | http://wesnoth.org | Latest stable version: 1.12.5 | Latest development version: 1.13.4 | Check the upness of Wesnoth servers: http://status.wesnoth.org | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: https://bpaste.net
20160415 15:26:03-!- Topic set by vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] [Fri Mar 11 04:38:36 2016]
20160415 15:26:03[Users #wesnoth]
20160415 15:26:03[ _iwc        ] [ enchi     ] [ knotwork__ ] [ Rhonda       ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ aeth        ] [ fabi_     ] [ Kwandulin_2] [ Samual       ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ Aginor      ] [ Falcon-   ] [ lobby      ] [ Smar         ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ ancestral   ] [ Gambit    ] [ MadMerlin3 ] [ Smedles      ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ APic        ] [ Haldrik   ] [ mic_e      ] [ Soliton      ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ ArneBab     ] [ Haudegen  ] [ minzbonbon ] [ TC01         ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ bool_       ] [ heirecka  ] [ molgrum    ] [ TheJJ        ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ clavi       ] [ HeyCitizen] [ namad8     ] [ ToBeCloud    ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ Crendgrim   ] [ Ivanovic  ] [ Nean       ] [ UukGoblin    ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ DDR         ] [ iwaim__   ] [ oldlaptop  ] [ vincent_c    ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ DeFender1031] [ janebot_  ] [ Pepe_      ] [ Vorpal       ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ dobson      ] [ Jetrel    ] [ PjotrOrial ] [ vultraz      ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ elias       ] [ Jetrel_bot] [ prkc_      ] [ Xjs|moonshine] 
20160415 15:26:03[ EliDupree_  ] [ Johannes13] [ quentinp_  ] [ Yaiyan       ] 
20160415 15:26:03[ Elsi        ] [ jurkan_   ] [ Ravana_    ] [ zookeeper    ] 
20160415 15:26:03-!- Irssi: #wesnoth: Total of 60 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 60 normal]
20160415 15:26:04-!- Home page for #wesnoth: http://www.wesnoth.org
20160415 15:26:08-!- Channel #wesnoth created Sun Nov 26 06:42:43 2006
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20160415 17:22:28-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | http://wesnoth.org | Latest stable version: 1.12.5 | Latest development version: 1.13.4 | Check the upness of Wesnoth servers: http://status.wesnoth.org | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: https://bpaste.net
20160415 17:22:28-!- Topic set by vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] [Fri Mar 11 04:38:36 2016]
20160415 17:22:28[Users #wesnoth]
20160415 17:22:28[ _iwc          ] [ enchi     ] [ Kwandulin_2] [ Rhonda       ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ aeth          ] [ fabi_     ] [ lobby_     ] [ salluc69     ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ Aginor        ] [ Falcon-   ] [ Lohengramm ] [ Samual       ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ Aginor_       ] [ Gambit    ] [ loonycyborg] [ Smar         ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ APic          ] [ Guest45651] [ MadMerlin3 ] [ Smedles      ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ Appleman1234  ] [ Haldrik   ] [ mattsc     ] [ Soliton      ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ ArneBab       ] [ Haudegen  ] [ mic_e      ] [ TC01         ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ bool_         ] [ heirecka  ] [ minzbonbon ] [ TheJJ        ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ celticminstrel] [ HeyCitizen] [ molgrum    ] [ ToBeCloud    ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ clavi         ] [ Ivanovic  ] [ namad8     ] [ UukGoblin    ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ claymore2     ] [ iwaim__   ] [ Narrat     ] [ vincent_c    ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ claymore2_    ] [ janebot_  ] [ Nean       ] [ Vorpal       ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ Crendgrim     ] [ Jetrel    ] [ oldlaptop  ] [ vultraz      ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ DDR           ] [ Jetrel_bot] [ Pepe_      ] [ Xjs|moonshine] 
20160415 17:22:28[ dobson        ] [ Johannes13] [ PjotrOrial ] [ Yaiyan       ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ elias         ] [ jurkan_   ] [ prkc_      ] [ zookeeper    ] 
20160415 17:22:28[ EliDupree_    ] [ knotwork__] [ quentinp_  ] 
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20160415 17:22:28-!- Home page for #wesnoth: http://www.wesnoth.org
20160415 17:22:33-!- Channel #wesnoth created Sun Nov 26 06:42:43 2006
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20160415 18:25:09< aeth> In case anyone is curious what I have right now in my 400x200 map that merged most of my RPG maps: https://i.imgur.com/3n0n4Fv.jpg
20160415 18:25:17< aeth> yeah, imgur turned it into a jpg and messed up parts of the screenshot
20160415 18:26:24< zookeeper> well, it's big for sure
20160415 18:28:01< aeth> I'm going to have to come up with quite a few ways for fast travel. Currently I only have boat transportation planned for the longest river
20160415 18:30:59< aeth> The area with the moat/canal is the city, as you might have guessed. The problem is most of the 120x90 map that made up the left center area was fortifications and farms for the city, without much room for fun
20160415 18:32:21< zookeeper> conceivably, one could maybe make a fast travel system where you could always fast travel between two known and visited locations, as long as there's a shroudless path between them (free of enemies etc)
20160415 18:32:29< aeth> yes
20160415 18:32:58< aeth> That's what I'm going to be doing for the boats, at least. Essentially, you'll be able to choose a destination you visited (with labels so they all have names) unless there are enemies nearby
20160415 18:34:53< zookeeper> well, i meant more like "if you could walk from A to B without uncovering any shroud or getting into range of any enemies, you can fast-travel from A to B". basically, you must have walked from A to B or vice versa before, without leaving any enemies lingering behind.
20160415 18:35:10< zookeeper> but that could be very complicated to do
20160415 18:35:51< zookeeper> and you'd have to somehow handle corner cases like what if you've gained more MP since the last time you walked from A to B, and didn't see any enemies then but would now? and so on
20160415 18:35:59< zookeeper> but, just saying, since it sprang to mind :p
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20160415 18:46:52< aeth> to doodle some circles that imgur's jpg conversion of course butchered (but I didn't try to make them good because I expected that: https://i.imgur.com/8K9c49k.jpg
20160415 18:47:16< aeth> red are most of the settled areas, magenta (if you can't tell, it's the smaller circles, generally) on the big river are boat stops
20160415 18:47:40< aeth> of course I missed the big city at the oasis on the entrance to the desert... damn
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20160415 18:48:49< aeth> The only really hard to get to areas of interest right now, besides that city whose dashed circle area (related settlements and farms, basically) takes up most of its old map so it's hard to get everywhere... 
20160415 18:49:21< aeth> The only really hard to get to large areas are the desert ones (even the cave one has a boat stop, although it's a few turns away) and the dungeon entrances (although one dungeon has two towns at its entrance
20160415 18:50:39< zookeeper> i guess the way i'd try to do fast-travel is by specifying every fast-travel road (1hex wide paths), having specific start/end points for the roads, and each road having a status for whether it's clear for fast-travel or not.
20160415 18:50:46< aeth> one of the desert towns is haunted (the one on the wadi) and the lava one is probably hostile to most players too
20160415 18:51:06< aeth> Everything's connected by roads or rivers, at least when outside
20160415 18:51:19< aeth> The desert burries its road a bit though
20160415 18:51:20< zookeeper> then, if the road is clear, you can fast-travel from one end to the other. if it's not clear, you just have to walk and clear out the enemies or whatever is "blocking" the road.
20160415 18:53:01< zookeeper> it could be tricky to communicate to the player how much shroud they need to uncover around the road before it can become "clear". maybe the road should just be littered with markers every couple of hexes, and as long as the road has any markers you've not stepped on, it's not clear.
20160415 18:53:20< aeth> zookeeper: wouldn't it be more KISS if I just kept the fast travel on the main river, and used some sort of teleportation point for the main areas far from the river, like the dungeon entrances and the desert towns?
20160415 18:53:42< aeth> If I put fast travel on the other river system, in the south, that isn't connected yet, it would get the other areas of interest too... except the dungeons and inside
20160415 18:54:04< aeth> The only real issue would be the blanks in the northwest, that won't be near either river, at least where the rivers are large enough for travel.
20160415 18:54:17< zookeeper> depends on how you do it, neither is necessarily more KISS than the other
20160415 18:54:40< aeth> Well, it would basically be "if you have uncovered the pier, you can fast travel to it, and if you have uncovered the <teleportation mechansim> you can fast travel to it"
20160415 18:54:52< aeth> A few places, like the big city, would have both, so you would be able to switch networks
20160415 18:55:01< aeth> Travel from pier to pier, or from teleport pad to teleport pad
20160415 18:55:28< aeth> Teleport pads could serve like checkpoints in dungeons, too, since you could restock if you get to one
20160415 18:56:18< zookeeper> well teleports tend to be the simplest and most straightforward travel mechanism
20160415 18:56:20< zookeeper> nothing wrong with that
20160415 18:56:42< aeth> The boat could probably "teleport" too
20160415 18:56:50< aeth> I could have a boat at each pier, and you right click on one to fast travel
20160415 18:56:57< aeth> It would seem a bit cheap though with a whole party there
20160415 19:03:16< zookeeper> i'd kind of like to try to implement my idea, but i guess i should spend my time on something more useful
20160415 19:03:36< aeth> zookeeper: the problem is, I have too many roads
20160415 19:03:56< aeth> zookeeper: your idea would work if I had planned ahead, and made roads like I made that big river, with points in mind
20160415 19:04:02< aeth> it's too late here, though
20160415 19:04:22< zookeeper> yeah, it'd need the map to be designed with it in mind
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20160415 19:11:19< aeth> I think this provides enough fast travel while still creating a lot of slow travel: https://i.imgur.com/Q2rcc29.jpg
20160415 19:12:22< aeth> yellow would be teleporters, mostly clustered in the dangerous cave areas, and mostly away from the river travel. magenta would be the river travel, mostly on the main river, but also on two other rivers (one is underground!), with the three rivel travels not connecting... so to fast travel from one river network to another you'd have to get to a teleporter place, then teleport, then take that boat
20160415 19:13:29< aeth> Every area of interest is easily accessible by one, although it might take a bit of walking once you fast travel somewhere.
20160415 19:15:27< aeth> The largest area of interest left off is the central desert city, although a smaller city to its west has one
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20160415 19:20:55< celticminstrel> Teleporters can be implemented with [tunnel] rather than an event.
20160415 19:20:59< aeth> actually, that's probably a bad idea. Anything off the path might as well not exist
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20160415 19:20:59< celticminstrel> If you want that.
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20160415 19:23:03< aeth> celticminstrel: I missed your message because of a ping problem, but magically /reconnect made my last message go through apparently
20160415 19:23:03< aeth> some sort of server issue, I guess
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20160415 19:23:19< aeth> celticminstrel: I don't want to use [tunnel] instead of an event for teleporters. Teleportation should cost money, as should river travel, but river travel should be much cheaper (5g or 10g vs. 50g or something).
20160415 19:23:24< celticminstrel> What's with teleporters in black areas.
20160415 19:23:29< celticminstrel> Fair enough.
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20160415 19:23:48< aeth> If it's free and automatic, the optimal strategy is continually retreating to the safe area
20160415 19:23:54< aeth> And this game takes long enough as-is
20160415 19:24:12< aeth> celticminstrel: teleporters in the black areas means planned teleportation areas
20160415 19:24:17< aeth> well, they're all planned
20160415 19:24:18< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160415 19:24:28< celticminstrel> So you have plans for expanding the map.
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20160415 19:24:36< aeth> celticminstrel: no, I cannot expand the map easily.
20160415 19:24:42< aeth> :-p
20160415 19:24:43< celticminstrel> Well, filling the black areas.
20160415 19:24:46< aeth> yes
20160415 19:24:50< celticminstrel> That's a kind of expansion.
20160415 19:24:53< aeth> Otherwise I could speed things up by deleting those rows
20160415 19:27:46< aeth> celticminstrel: I voided most of the map (or cave walled it in the east) so I could get this playable with just the undetailed strip in the middle and a few other undetailed areas, instead of requiring basically 3-5 maps' worth of drawing before it's playable
20160415 19:28:09< aeth> I should've used void instead of Gg when I expanded the map. It would have saved time
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20160415 21:35:17< aeth> I probably should implement the factions system now. Units can switch between hostile (side 1) and friendly (side 6)... so you'll be able to e.g. side with the Undead to overthrow the kingdom.
20160415 21:36:46< aeth> The Undead side in my RPG will probably be a bunch of necromancers who want to liberate everyone from work, by using the reanimated corpses of the dead to replace feudalism. Because an anti-work, anti-feudalist faction will be more sympathetic than just a pure evil destroy-everything necromancer faction.
20160415 21:37:10< aeth> Essentially, I hope people will be wondering if the Undead are in fact the bad guys. (Well, the humans who control the Undead, since the undead are, well, undead.)
20160415 21:40:29< aeth> The Undead side will be very philosophically-driven, rather than the non-outlaw humans who will be driven based on loyalty and hierarchy.
20160415 21:42:11< aeth> If you side with the Undead, you'll always be wondering if they're lying and if you're going to be double crossed by an Eldritch Abomination later on... and if you side with the monarchy, you'll wonder if enforcing the power of the nobility over everyone is really a good thing.
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 16 00:00:49 2016