--- Log opened Sun Apr 17 00:00:24 2016
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20160417 03:28:29< ancestral> DeFender1031: My advice? Put whatever you have on the addon server
20160417 03:28:39< ancestral> That’s the only way you’re going to get good feedback, imo
20160417 04:11:07< celticminstrel> I don't recommend putting unfinished products on the addon server though...
20160417 04:56:37< aeth> ancestral: I get lots of MP feedback with unpublished add-ons
20160417 04:56:45< ancestral> ^
20160417 04:56:50< aeth> They have to not require a download, though.
20160417 04:56:56 * ancestral shrugs
20160417 04:57:00< aeth> I think I arranged 1, maybe 2, games total of stuff that requires a download
20160417 05:00:23< celticminstrel> That doesn't work for SP campaigns. :P
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20160417 05:01:29< aeth> you could do an MP/SP campaign, the only mainline MP campaign is one
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20160417 13:30:31< vn971> hi) I wonder, why does "Plan Your Advancement" only require the host to have this addon, while "Ally Village Mod" seemingly requires all people to have it?
20160417 13:35:30< vn971> sorry, disregard that. It seems that only the host needs "Ally Village Mod", too.
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20160417 14:56:29< Ravana_> modification has key to say if it is required for others
20160417 14:58:53< vn971> Ravana_: "require_modification=no" ?
20160417 14:59:49< vn971> Ravana_: .. should've googled that, https://wiki.wesnoth.org/ModificationWML   (yes, this is the desired setting)
20160417 15:00:06< vn971> Ravana_: thanks.)
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20160417 15:13:15< DeFender> Ravana_, is that just arbitrary or are there technical reasons for requiring everyone to have the mod?
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20160417 15:18:33< Ravana_> key is arbitrary, but there are some content types that are not sent
20160417 15:19:08< DeFender> so are there cases where it'll cause OOS if not required?
20160417 15:19:17< Ravana_> like [color_range]
20160417 15:19:49< Ravana_> usually it would cause more immediate problems like missing unit or terrain type, instead of oos
20160417 15:20:11< DeFender> ah
20160417 15:20:13< DeFender> alright
20160417 15:20:29< DeFender> thanks
20160417 15:20:43< DeFender> heading out, see you guys... sometime.
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20160417 16:20:11< vn971> Ravana_: could you please update the "Ally Village Mod" description? I think it would be nice to add:
20160417 16:20:11< vn971> > Only the host needs to have this mod.
20160417 16:20:32< Ravana_> I don't think there is point
20160417 16:20:36< Ravana_> that is the standard state
20160417 16:20:42< vn971> Ravana_: why not? Hm..
20160417 16:20:48< Ravana_> opposite would need notice
20160417 16:21:28< vn971> Ravana_: ok. (Not being a very experienced player, I had to test to figure that out...)
20160417 16:22:36< vn971> Ravana_: well, "Plan Your Advancement" mod does add this info explicetly. And you can't join/observe most games that have some "foreign" addons or eras.
20160417 16:23:08< Ravana_> you can't join exactly when addon says it needs it for all
20160417 16:24:09< vn971> Ravana_: I'm talking from user experince point of view, not a developer one. As a developer, I now understand the setting and can figure out the question by looking at the code myself.
20160417 16:24:43< vn971> Ravana_: 1 hour ago I didn't know that, so I clearly saw that a strong majority of addons do not work if you haven't installed them.
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20160417 16:27:56< Ravana_> there are only 2 modifications that explicitly say that only host needs it
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20160417 16:28:31< Ravana_> also, I don't see anything wrong with people thinking they need to download it
20160417 16:30:19< Ravana_> having multiple of them doesn't break anything
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20160417 16:32:34< Ravana_> obviously no sp stuff works without download as there is only host. in mp standard would be that era needs download, scenario doesn't, campaign doesn't, modification doesn't
20160417 16:35:41< Ravana_> vn971: so, which modifications then do require download so that they would cause confusion?
20160417 16:36:18< aeth> Ravana_: it's not that simple, certain macros require campaign download (for no apparent good reason, either, like e.g. enabling certain upgrades like Lich -> Ancient Lich)
20160417 16:36:39< aeth> So if you copy a campaign definition it may not work in MP without a download unless you test it first
20160417 16:36:45< Ravana_> aeth: that has very good reason, [advancefrom]
20160417 16:37:31< aeth> Yes, but the macros cover it up. In fact, it's not even a macro at the level of [campaign], it's just a line in the config file... extra_defines=
20160417 16:37:43< aeth> Although obviously the names are a list of macros
20160417 16:37:53< vn971> Ravana_: the honest answer is - I just don't know that. As a user, I just haven't tested all those 100500 addons out there. I tried some popular ones, and I know there is about 2 (two) of them which are considered NOT game-breaking (meaning they can be enabled in about any game).
20160417 16:37:56< aeth> (Obviously to someone who knows a bit about the internal details, at least.)
20160417 16:38:34< vn971> Ravana_: one of the 2 non-game-breaking says it can be used for host only... Most others do not say anything about that.
20160417 16:39:27< vn971> Ravana_: the question for me was: if I enable this add-on, would all people be able to join the game? They will get some advertisement if they join the game anyway.
20160417 16:39:34< aeth> All this not-require-download thing is a messy hack over not having auto-dowload (at least in stable)
20160417 16:39:51< aeth> In most MP games you download mods (way too much actually) on joining a game
20160417 16:42:14< aeth> It's not quite the same since you don't usually self-host Wesnoth games, but on some games, you basically have to sit down with a cup of coffee and wait on your first connection to a server. Apparently Garry's Mod even lets music play during the process because it expects it to take forever.
20160417 16:42:27< aeth> I haven't seen this anywhere else yet.
20160417 16:42:33< Ravana_> I see that it would be nice if create game screen showed somewhere the state of require_modification for each possible selection
20160417 16:42:59< aeth> s/lets music play/lets the server play its own, custom music/
20160417 16:43:51< aeth> Ravana_: does a MP music pack require_modification? Because I usually disable music in games after idk a few hundred hours
20160417 16:44:33< Ravana_> music pack doesn't require, no oos, but no music will be sent, so just no music will be played without addon
20160417 16:44:51< aeth> Ah, good. Because music will be the largest download and so should always be optional.
20160417 16:45:55< celticminstrel> It should be possible to make extra_defines work without requiring download.
20160417 16:46:06< celticminstrel> Assuming of course that they're only core defines.
20160417 16:46:26< celticminstrel> The other clients should be informed of the extra defines somehow.
20160417 16:46:27< aeth> celticminstrel: I only used core defines in my extra_defines [campaign] test
20160417 16:46:35< celticminstrel> I know.
20160417 16:46:42< Ravana_> so I don't know if they actually use [advancefrom], just heard that somewhere
20160417 16:46:44< aeth> all I wanted was this: # extra_defines=ENABLE_ANCIENT_LICH, ENABLE_WOLF_ADVANCEMENT, ENABLE_ARMAGEDDON_DRAKE, ENABLE_DWARVISH_RUNESMITH, ENABLE_DWARVISH_ARCANISTER, ENABLE_TROLL_SHAMAN, ENABLE_DEATH_KNIGHT
20160417 16:46:56< aeth> Especially wolves. Everything else is nice to have but oh my god why don't wolves promote
20160417 16:47:20< celticminstrel> There's also an enable for Khalif, I think. Or was that in 1.13...
20160417 16:47:34< aeth> 1.13 afaik
20160417 16:47:44< aeth> all I know is, MP should definitely be able to enable these
20160417 16:47:58< aeth> Although it does break the balance for RPGs... why would anyone go necro over lich?
20160417 16:48:29< aeth> What's sad is I could probably patch this in the Lua during the game if the right tables are mutable.
20160417 16:49:02< celticminstrel> Are they mutable? 
20160417 16:49:06< celticminstrel> I suspect not...
20160417 16:49:37< aeth> What I've learned about the Wesnoth API is that nothing makes sense and the only way to find out something is to test it, and even if it works then, it might not be MP-safe
20160417 16:49:51< aeth> I don't feel like wasting 20 minutes right now
20160417 16:50:24< Ravana_> since you can't create dynamic unit types, it can't be possible to modify existing ones either
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20160417 16:51:37< aeth> Ravana_: It shouldn't be possible. If it is possible, it would break MP (afaik) and is a bug
20160417 16:53:34< Ravana_> I am reasonably fortunate for mp, every silly thing that otherwise would make modification require download I can include with ageless, and since all my addons are intended to be used with ageless, it works
20160417 16:56:04< aeth> A faction I wrote the WML for (not the sprites) is in Ageless. So strange to see everything, including from a long time ago, in one era.
20160417 16:57:53< aeth> I am probably going to make a custom era for use with my RPG stuff. I don't want tons of units, I just want to round out the units that exist, so e.g. lvl 0s, female variants, etc. And possibly some balances, like replacing the Silver Mage ability.
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 18 00:00:44 2016