--- Log opened Wed May 11 00:00:35 2016
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20160511 02:13:50< shadowm> ancestral: Oh, hi.
20160511 02:14:37< shadowm> I was thinking of you just now, while looking at a certain subreddit.
20160511 02:15:06< ancestral> Hi!
20160511 02:15:19< shadowm> I have a couple of questions to ask you.
20160511 02:15:38< ancestral> Sure
20160511 02:15:48< shadowm> First and foremost, I hate Lato. End tangent.
20160511 02:16:01< shadowm> Now question 1: did you see my email to the devs ML?
20160511 02:16:14< ancestral> Yes, regarding 1.12.6?
20160511 02:16:18< shadowm> Yes.
20160511 02:16:48< ancestral> I did read it
20160511 02:17:16< shadowm> I guess you don't have a problem with that timeframe then.
20160511 02:17:19< shadowm> Now question 2: any progress on that trailer? (don't ask why i am the one asking this question)
20160511 02:18:26< ancestral> I just need more vidcaps
20160511 02:18:58< ancestral> I have some time tonight. My workflows was in flux while I was moving
20160511 02:19:17< shadowm> Ah, okay.
20160511 02:19:43< ancestral> So, let me do this. I have a draft even without vicdaps
20160511 02:20:18< ancestral> Let me update the YouTube with whatever I have and then figure out what's left to do
20160511 02:21:17< shadowm> And what version of Wesnoth will you be using for that footage?
20160511 02:21:32< ancestral> What do you suggest?
20160511 02:22:13< ancestral> I had been thinking of using 1.13 before the most recent changes
20160511 02:22:26< ancestral> But I can use 1.12 if that is more consistent
20160511 02:22:32< shadowm> Well, I'm not vultraz, so this is just my personal opinion...
20160511 02:22:47< shadowm> It greatly depends on how long we intend to wait before releasing the trailer.
20160511 02:23:14< shadowm> Right now 1.12.x is the stable branch, and that's what new players will actually see.
20160511 02:23:49< shadowm> 1.13.x is for the most part identical to 1.12.x in appearance if you don't count the unreleased half-cooked changes in master.
20160511 02:23:53< ancestral> bbl
20160511 02:24:58< shadowm> Except for the branding assets, anyway.
20160511 02:25:07< shadowm> Difficult question to answer, really.
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20160511 02:28:20< shadowm> If it were up to me I'd wait until the UI schizophrenia going on in master was solved and then base the trailer's gameplay sequences on that and hope that people don't change anything again. But that requires a lot of team coordination, and I've heard that this is exactly what Wesnoth never does. :p
20160511 02:29:13< shadowm> OTOH the chrome parts of the UI are probably not going to feature that heavily in the trailer either, is it?
20160511 02:29:18< shadowm> *are they?
20160511 02:29:49< shadowm> Since the focus is supposed to be on gameplay sequences, which use artwork that will most likely remain unchanged for two or three more stable series.
20160511 02:30:04< shadowm> (With the notable exception of UtBS.)
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20160511 03:09:56< ancestral> shadowm: agreed
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20160511 07:15:56< Kwandulin> huh
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20160511 07:27:49< pydsigner> Heh
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20160511 10:34:46< vultraz> jeez, how much stuff have you people committed since I last pulled o_O
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20160511 11:25:54< zookeeper> WRT PR #654, is there any reason why pressing esc shouldn't just default to "Set side to idle" with a simple chatlog warning telling you that's what happened, instead of throwing a network error?
20160511 11:34:15< zookeeper> Aginor, btw, one remaining issue with the scancodes is that all the help text assumes : is the command prompt key. i dunno how that ought to be solved, since even if you substituted it with the real key, something like "ödebug" looks confusing.
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20160511 17:09:26< gfgtdf> shadowm: is there a way to deprecate a wml macro ?
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20160511 17:12:08< Nobun> gfgtdf: I'm curious... what wml you would suggest to consider deprecate?
20160511 17:12:20< zookeeper> gfgtdf, nothing tricky about it
20160511 17:12:21< Nobun> s/wml/wml macro
20160511 17:12:25< gfgtdf> Nobun: MAKE_AI_SIDE_PERSISTENT
20160511 17:12:38< Nobun> thank, gfgtdf :)
20160511 17:12:58< zookeeper> just move to deprecated-utils.cfg and add a deprecation warning like the other macros there
20160511 17:13:02< gfgtdf> Nobun: and maybe RECALL_AI_SIDE but i think i might just rmeove that one dirctoy
20160511 17:13:52< zookeeper> gfgtdf, is the macro now unnecessary or what?
20160511 17:14:26< gfgtdf> zookeeper: MAKE_AI_SIDE_PERSISTENT had some rather strang wokraroung that seems to casue bugs in wesnoth 1.13
20160511 17:14:31< gfgtdf> zookeeper: as reported in the forum
20160511 17:14:47< gfgtdf> zookeeper: usually you'd just use presitent=yes in [side]
20160511 17:15:20< zookeeper> gfgtdf, if persistent=yes does the job, why not just change the macro accordingly?
20160511 17:15:38< gfgtdf> zookeeper: yes that what i was palnning to do anyways
20160511 17:16:47< gfgtdf> zookeeper: still i think using persitent=yes is better becasue easier to understand so i want to deprecate the macro.
20160511 17:18:35< gfgtdf> zookeeper: and RECALL_AI_SIDE, i think that it casues OOS, even in 1.12 also it has other bugs for example it doesnt care about custom recall costs and assumes alwaya a recall cost of 20
20160511 17:20:54< zookeeper> (note: apparently we don't really use the deprecation warnings anymore and there's no clear schedule for removal)
20160511 17:22:35< Nobun> zookeeper: about this... perhaps it is possible to add a debug message that is shown on gameplay when deprecated macro is used
20160511 17:22:59< Nobun> but the disadvantage of this idea is that the warning will be not seen by UMC developers wich are not using debug mode
20160511 17:23:00< gfgtdf> Nobun: hmm yes but that onyl wokrs for actionwml macros
20160511 17:23:36< zookeeper> i'm fine with deprecation warnings popping up anywhere, as long as it's _not_ in regular play
20160511 17:23:49< Nobun> gfgtdf: yeah... I didn't think about it
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20160511 17:24:30< irker869> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master a1b9469eed5e / data/core/macros/side-utils.cfg: remove RECALL_AI_SIDE https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a1b9469eed5e720ff9c080a9b803515501597f84
20160511 17:24:56< zookeeper> "remove" isn't really the right word :p
20160511 17:25:34< gfgtdf> zookeeper: ?
20160511 17:25:47< gfgtdf> zookeeper: i really dont know which word would be better
20160511 17:27:38< gfgtdf> mattsc: you know when the ai will recall units instead of recuiting new ones, or how i can contorl that using aiwml ?
20160511 17:28:15< gfgtdf> mattsc: or lua
20160511 17:32:18< gfgtdf> mattsc: it seems like the ai helper has a function checked_recruit but not chacked_recall
20160511 17:32:44< gfgtdf> mattsc: i know however that the ai table has a recall function
20160511 17:33:17< gfgtdf> mattsc: i'm also quet sure that under some curcumstances that ai will rather recall a unit that recuit a new one
20160511 17:39:03< mattsc> gfgtdf: IIRC, the AI tends to recall all units it has before recruiting any, even if the only thing left on the recall list is a no-experience L0.
20160511 17:40:27< gfgtdf> mattsc: is there a way i can change that with wml/lua ?
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20160511 17:41:46< mattsc> gfgtdf: not that I remember (other than killing units off the recall list)
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20160511 17:52:01< mattsc> gfgtdf: actually, the first statement is not true any more as of flix’ changes to the recruitment engine.  Units on the recall list and new recruits are now evaluated against each other.
20160511 17:52:11< mattsc> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Recruitment
20160511 17:52:30< mattsc> I do not know whether the recruitment_instructions aspect also influences recalls though.
20160511 17:53:50< zookeeper> over the years i've occasionally thought whether it would be good or not if in campaigns, enemy leaders were given a random-generated recall list so you would face off against units of various XP levels, not always just fresh recruits.
20160511 17:54:27< zookeeper> because, you are able to recall, why can't they? besides, having to take enemy XP into account more often could be refreshing.
20160511 17:58:21< gfgtdf> zookeeper: i see no reason against that but.
20160511 17:58:50< gfgtdf> zookeeper: not sure how it woudl effect the balance though.
20160511 18:00:50< mattsc> zookeeper: yeah, agreed.  And I think I am actually doing something like that in a couple scenarios in at least one of my campaigns (although they might be fixed XP levels, rather than random ones, I don’t remember right now).
20160511 18:02:08< gfgtdf> zookeeper: if you just want random xl level it might also enough to just fice those recuits xp in their recuit events, iirc there are also umc campaigns that do that
20160511 18:02:42< zookeeper> sure, sure
20160511 18:03:18< zookeeper> i was just talking of whether all of our campaigns should do that (where appropriate)
20160511 18:05:33< celticminstrel> If I recall correctly, there is a WML tag specifically for deprecation warnings...
20160511 18:06:07< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes but that' mostlikeley also actionwml
20160511 18:06:31< celticminstrel> ...oh right.
20160511 18:06:40< celticminstrel> For side stuff, that won't work.
20160511 18:07:45< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well since that oes after side i coudl just add an event that does usse that actionwml tag.
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20160511 18:08:03< celticminstrel> Ah, true.
20160511 18:08:20< zookeeper> and where does the warning appear then?
20160511 18:08:21< Nobun> gfgtdf: you read my mind
20160511 18:08:54< celticminstrel> wesnoth.game_config.debug, right?
20160511 18:08:59< celticminstrel> To check if debug mode is on.
20160511 18:09:02< Nobun> I was suggesting adding a submacro {DEPRECATEEVENT}
20160511 18:09:22< Nobun> wich define an action event that could be executed
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20160511 18:09:28< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: but i think it'd be much nicer if we had a was do do it without action wml. Ideally at wml parser level, like havng # deprecated annotation that' d gave an error whenever that macor is used by the wmlparser
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20160511 18:09:47< celticminstrel> Might be nicer, but a lot harder.
20160511 18:09:58< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: well we have already #error afaik
20160511 18:10:25< celticminstrel> Oh! Is there #warning too?
20160511 18:10:39< celticminstrel> I seem to recall hearing that it exists, though I think it's not documented even if it does...
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20160511 18:11:26< zookeeper> again, whatever way you add deprecation warnings, please make sure regular players won't see them.
20160511 18:11:54< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm yes #warnign might be what we want
20160511 18:12:13< irker869> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master 15ec939fe0e6 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Suppress deprecation messages unless in debug mode https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/15ec939fe0e6ec2b1c078df75fff8048ab927a76
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20160511 18:13:05< zookeeper> debug mode, or debug builds too?
20160511 18:13:08< celticminstrel> You'd have to investigate the circumstances on which #warning is shown.
20160511 18:13:10< gfgtdf> zookeeper: i actualyl disagrre there, i usualy dont use debug mode when deveoling addons  and havign devs to see them is more important that a message that will onyl apprear once
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20160511 18:13:25< celticminstrel> zookeeper: Debug mode meaning that which is enabled with ;debug or --debug.
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20160511 18:13:40< zookeeper> celticminstrel, okay
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20160511 18:14:07< gfgtdf> zookeeper: deprecated messages are alrady made so that they are onyl displayed once (not each time the deprecated function is used) to it shouldnt be too annyoing for the players
20160511 18:14:08< celticminstrel> I suppose it could go in the changelog too... I guess I'll get to that later.
20160511 18:14:25< celticminstrel> That seems to ring false, gfgtdf...
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20160511 18:14:39< celticminstrel> At least, regarding any done via the ActionWML.
20160511 18:14:50< zookeeper> gfgtdf, deprecation warnings aren't important though, because the old code still works for quite a while.
20160511 18:14:52< celticminstrel> It's not like there's a single way of giving deprecated messages, after all.
20160511 18:15:11< gfgtdf> zookeeper:  but not for very long
20160511 18:15:35< celticminstrel> C++ code should be able to check for debug mode in a similar way, probably if(game_config::debug_mode) or something?
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20160511 18:16:36< celticminstrel> So anyway, adding [deprecated_message] to some deprecated macros can now be done without creating chat-spam for normal users.
20160511 18:17:16< celticminstrel> For those that aren't ActionWML (or at least subsidiary to ScenarioWML, eg SideWML), maybe #warning would work. Someone would have to try it and see.
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20160511 18:19:20< zookeeper> for what it's worth, i'm going to suggest that after 1.14, we never deprecate any macros or part of the WML API, unless it's actually necessary for some reason and/or known to be very low-impact.
20160511 18:19:45< celticminstrel> I suppose that means I should get to work on that abilities thing.
20160511 18:19:56< zookeeper> which thing was that?
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20160511 18:20:23< celticminstrel> Defining abilities globally and only referencing them from the unit type.
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20160511 18:22:10< zookeeper> that's... interesting. i don't know how common it is to make direct modifications to a unit's ability contents, but it's not unheard of.
20160511 18:24:56< zookeeper> how exactly would you keep support for both during the transition period? seems like those methods of handling abilities would be very difficult to fit together
20160511 18:25:13< gfgtdf> zookeeper: will this make direct ability via  [unstore_unit] (as opposed ot changed via [effect]) impossible? 
20160511 18:25:31< celticminstrel> I think you pinged the wrong person.
20160511 18:25:45< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes i mean toyu
20160511 18:25:51< gfgtdf> you*
20160511 18:26:20< celticminstrel> It would make it easier to add a referenced ability via [unstore_unit] - you'd just add the ability's ID to the end of the abilities key.
20160511 18:26:55< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm and how woudl one add a new ability that it now known yet ?
20160511 18:27:41< celticminstrel> You'd either do it the current way, or if we intend to phase that out, you'd add it to the list of globally known abilities (which probably means new API or something) and then add the reference to it.
20160511 18:28:20< celticminstrel> I think both ways of handling abilities can coexist.
20160511 18:28:36< celticminstrel> Though having two ways isn't exactly great, it would be fine for a transition period, at least.
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20160511 20:26:07< Aginor> zookeeper: I think it's best resolved with changing the wording of the helptext. ö brings up the command interface, once within it, these are the commands you can type: foo, bar, baz
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20160511 20:29:45< zookeeper> Aginor, yeah, something like that.
20160511 20:30:50< Aginor> I'll see if I can find a block of time and review it
20160511 20:31:14< Aginor> I'm need to leave for work, would yuou mind raising and assigning a bug to me about it?
20160511 20:31:32< Aginor> that it won't be forgotten
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20160511 21:10:14< irker869> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:1.12 3bd03e91cb42 / changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-editor/pt.po po/wesnoth-low/pt.po: updated Portuguese translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3bd03e91cb42daa4cda04eac4fe50e3050cc6cad
20160511 21:10:17< irker869> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:master 3242a0f0eb84 / changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-editor/pt.po po/wesnoth-low/pt.po: updated Portuguese translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3242a0f0eb84e0eb7ebc1f43925f52864bb0c238
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20160511 22:05:44< zookeeper> celticminstrel, https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=596986#p596986 (point 2)
20160511 22:07:07< celticminstrel> I suppose some sort of check to see if the unit is onscreen and skip the scrolling if it is...
20160511 22:07:34< zookeeper> yeah, the c++ version probably included an onscreen check for the speaker hex or something
20160511 22:07:46< celticminstrel> I do vaguely remember something like that, yeah.
20160511 22:08:33< celticminstrel> A straight "is it onscreen" isn't really enough though...
20160511 22:08:48< celticminstrel> If it's right near the edge, you probably want it to scroll anyway.
20160511 22:08:58< zookeeper> sure
20160511 22:09:02< celticminstrel> And if it's towards the bottom, you don't want it to be underneath the message popup.
20160511 22:09:25< celticminstrel> Pretty sure the C++ version accounted for that, too...
20160511 22:10:32< celticminstrel> Hmm, #3 is trivial to implement, I think. Not that I know how to do it. Maybe vultraz knows.
20160511 22:11:06< vultraz> darker background for [message]?
20160511 22:11:08< vultraz> I can do that
20160511 22:11:25< celticminstrel> Either darker, or less transparent.
20160511 22:11:45< zookeeper> or with added desaturation
20160511 22:12:09< celticminstrel> Maybe...
20160511 22:12:34< celticminstrel> The blur thing might be good, if it can apply to an area rather than the whole screen...
20160511 22:13:13< zookeeper> oh right, the blur has been removed.
20160511 22:13:34< celticminstrel> Oh, really? I don't remember hearing about that.
20160511 22:13:59< zookeeper> presumably going pretty far back since even 1.12 doesn't have it
20160511 22:14:10< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160511 22:14:22< celticminstrel> So someone removed it but didn't update the documentation?
20160511 22:14:37< zookeeper> i hope it's for a good reason such as it being too slow when trying to click through several messages quickly
20160511 22:15:03< vultraz> what blur are you referring to?
20160511 22:15:14< celticminstrel> Oh, wait, you mean it was removed from [message] specifically, or from the GUI2 framework?
20160511 22:15:28< vultraz> I think he means the former
20160511 22:15:40< celticminstrel> vultraz: I dunno, I recall reading something about GUI2 supporting some sort of blur, possibly in canvas or definitions?
20160511 22:15:46< zookeeper> objectives dialog has it even in 1.13
20160511 22:15:49< vultraz> I know how to do that
20160511 22:15:54< vultraz> it's very simple
20160511 22:16:07< celticminstrel> Ah, okay.
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20160511 22:18:51< zookeeper> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0c2ea8d066beb4efc58bba1accb2cec77ad0a9c7
20160511 22:18:57< zookeeper> so maybe shadowm remembers
20160511 22:20:18< vultraz> it blurs the entire screen
20160511 22:20:21< shadowm> Didn't vultraz just say he knows too?
20160511 22:20:37< shadowm> Or you need me for something else? I don't know.
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20160511 22:21:41< shadowm> Oh, you are asking me why I didn't reapply blur on message panels after mordante fixed the general case I guess.
20160511 22:21:59< shadowm> IIRC there were still a couple of issues specific to it, I don't remember the specifics.
20160511 22:22:51< shadowm> First of all, there wasn't blur in the first place because infinite accumulative bug with interactive widgets (buttons, scrollbars, input boxes, list boxes).
20160511 22:23:36< shadowm> Objectives had the blur despite this because whoever made it a GUI2 dialog didn't realize that the bug would apply to it whenever the objectives text became large enough to exceed the dialog's maximum size/window size.
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20160511 22:24:18< shadowm> Eventually, mordante committed my fix for the infinite blur bug in 1.11.x or so, so the titlescreen panels got the blur back.
20160511 22:24:49< shadowm> However, when I tried enabling blur in [message] panels, I found another issue with certain widgets, IIRC it was a shadowing effect.
20160511 22:25:06< shadowm> Like listboxes changing opacity when hovered or something.
20160511 22:25:23< shadowm> Is that what you wanted to hear?
20160511 22:28:39< zookeeper> i prefer hearing nice things that are easy to understand
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20160511 22:31:00< shadowm> Okay, I don't. Take it or leave it.
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--- Log closed Thu May 12 00:00:01 2016