--- Log opened Thu Jun 09 00:00:17 2016
20160609 00:27:17-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 00:27:25-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 00:27:29-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 00:29:57-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 00:49:11-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e36a620.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]]
20160609 00:55:43-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:8d05:510b:40bc:4ccb] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 01:18:31-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 01:22:41-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160609 01:30:58-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160609 01:46:12-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc]
20160609 01:46:39-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 01:48:18-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Client Quit]
20160609 02:03:35< celticminstrel> Huh, it seems like github no longer shows Wesnoth's commit count.
20160609 02:09:08< iceiceice> yeah i noticed that too
20160609 02:09:14< iceiceice> it looks like, they just imposed a maximum of 10,000
20160609 02:09:23< iceiceice> i think we were at like 65k or something
20160609 02:09:33< celticminstrel> Something like that, yeah.
20160609 02:14:02< ancestral> Unacceptable. Let’s boycott them.
20160609 02:14:12-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
20160609 02:14:25< celticminstrel> Pfft.
20160609 02:14:33< ancestral> (That would be funny if it turned out to be a premium feature.)
20160609 02:15:58< shadowm> ancestral: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21371130/screenshots/subfonts-2.png
20160609 02:16:22< shadowm> Font sizes are still all over the place.
20160609 02:16:28< ancestral> Too big?
20160609 02:16:46< shadowm> It wouldn't be a problem if everything was proportionally large...
20160609 02:17:20< shadowm> As it is there's a lot of important info that's presented in an arbitrarily small font size compared to other major elements.
20160609 02:17:37< ancestral> The stuff in the sidebar?
20160609 02:17:42< shadowm> Sub description and links, post date and author.
20160609 02:18:00< ancestral> Okay
20160609 02:18:13< shadowm> The mod list is about as large as action links and that doesn't really make sense.
20160609 02:18:27< shadowm> The subscribe button is incredibly small.
20160609 02:18:42< ancestral> It’s probably in the same “class” as some other links
20160609 02:18:45< shadowm> And the logo is smaller than everything else.
20160609 02:19:00< ancestral> Up until recently, we didn’t have a larger logo
20160609 02:19:24< ancestral> I suppose ever since I re-did it, we did
20160609 02:19:29< shadowm> Pretty sure we've always had larger versions of that logo.
20160609 02:19:40< shadowm> Not the previous one, obviously.
20160609 02:19:46< ancestral> So you want a larger banner?
20160609 02:20:07< ancestral> And links in the sidebar the same size?
20160609 02:20:25< shadowm> No, I don't really want anything. I just think that people visiting this sub expect more harmonious font and image proportions. :p
20160609 02:20:54< ancestral> That’s fair, but if you don’t make any suggestions then I will be less inclined to make changes.
20160609 02:21:10< ancestral> All the same, feel free to make changes yourself. I don’t need to own this specifically.
20160609 02:21:29< shadowm> I don't have the power to do that and I do not want it either.
20160609 02:21:46< ancestral> That’s fine too. /shrug
20160609 02:22:30< shadowm> I think I pointed out the problems clearly enough. In order to make more specific suggestions I'd have to start hacking the CSS myself and it's not in my interest to do that.
20160609 02:22:42< ancestral> I’ll see what I can do to normalize sizes the next time I edit the stylesheet.
20160609 03:03:25< pydsigner> 2016-06-08 21:09:14 < iceiceice> it looks like, they just imposed a maximum of 10,000
20160609 03:03:48< pydsigner> I've noticed that Linux's contributer count shows as ∞
20160609 03:04:13< pydsigner> * contributor, even
20160609 03:04:18< iceiceice> maybe they'll give us infinity if we ask for it
20160609 03:04:29< iceiceice> i actually dont think i would like that though if i were linux project
20160609 03:05:39< pydsigner> Same, I want real numbers™
20160609 03:05:48< shadowm> Clearly the real Linux contributor list's cardinality is multiple infinities.
20160609 03:32:13-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 03:41:57< pydsigner> So, updated the UMC licensing PR again
20160609 03:43:22< pydsigner> It appears to me that we pretty much have consensus on this being a thing that needs to happen, but if there are further changes you'd like to see, please mention them.
20160609 03:44:31< pydsigner> I personally have art that I'm waiting on this PR to include in my project, FWIW.
20160609 03:45:14< ancestral> pydsigner: Link?
20160609 03:45:19< shadowm> Yeah I really think we should fast-track this and merge it to 1.12 too.
20160609 03:45:23< pydsigner> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/647
20160609 03:45:43< shadowm> And I'm saying this as one of the wesnoth.org infrastructure admins.
20160609 03:47:46< ancestral> Wow what a discussion
20160609 03:49:13-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 03:51:33< ancestral> pydsigner: If someone uploads an add-on, does this mean the artwork is automatically CC?
20160609 03:51:47< ancestral> Or it’s opt-in only?
20160609 03:51:56< pydsigner> Opt-in only
20160609 03:52:29< ancestral> So it’s GPL or CC
20160609 03:52:48< pydsigner> Yes
20160609 03:53:09< pydsigner> Initially I suggested a broader scope which was rejected by quite a few
20160609 03:53:24< ancestral> I’ve done my best to read through the discussion, but is there a compelling reason to allow art and music to be licensed under GPL?
20160609 03:53:24< pydsigner> So in the interest of getting *something* done I made it more restrictive.
20160609 03:53:45< pydsigner> Only that it's what we've done in the past
20160609 03:54:25< pydsigner> And getting everyone to relicense everything is, in a practical sense, impossible.
20160609 03:54:42< ancestral> No, I kinda meant, going forward or something
20160609 03:54:44< ancestral> Or
20160609 03:54:51< ancestral> 1.14+ add-ons, etc.
20160609 03:55:27< ancestral> (But sure, I totally get the compromise part.)
20160609 03:56:02< ancestral> So, if someone posts art on the forums, is it still GPL?
20160609 03:56:19< ancestral> Or it can be CC if they choose to denote it as such?
20160609 03:56:32< shadowm> We've always allowed exceptions in the forums.
20160609 03:57:24< shadowm> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=24425#p24425 -- yes terrible place for this sticky, not my choice and not my post either.
20160609 03:57:30< ancestral> Would it be good to have a reminder about the newly proposed licensing when uploading files in the forum?
20160609 03:58:21< shadowm> Sure, if you are willing to maintain an extension that does that.
20160609 03:59:22< iceiceice> pydsigner, one thing you could do is have a second add-on server
20160609 03:59:31< iceiceice> with more lax licensing
20160609 03:59:44< shadowm> That ruins visibility.
20160609 03:59:51< iceiceice> yeah, i guess thats true
20160609 04:00:03< pydsigner> Or you have to modify the add-ons connection dialog
20160609 04:00:12< pydsigner> And still, it'd suck
20160609 04:00:22< pydsigner> To maintain that
20160609 04:00:49< ancestral> I think this is probably the way to do it, until Wesnoth decides it may want to Make The Big Re-Licensing Change.
20160609 04:01:07< iceiceice> pydsigner, i guess i dont like the text in your pr
20160609 04:01:19< iceiceice> i'd rather just say "all content must be GPL or CC-BY-SA"
20160609 04:01:22< iceiceice> or something like that
20160609 04:01:37< iceiceice> idk why you want to make different rules for WML / art
20160609 04:01:55< iceiceice> i don't think that the GPL as commonly interpretted particularly makes sense for WML anyways
20160609 04:02:09< shadowm> WML is program code, the GPL was intended for program code.
20160609 04:02:23< iceiceice> GPL is mainly for code that links with other code
20160609 04:02:27< iceiceice> WML is not program code really
20160609 04:02:33< iceiceice> it doesn't stand-alone
20160609 04:02:38< pydsigner> iceiceice: Where were you a month ago when the text included WML? :(
20160609 04:02:40< iceiceice> it's kind of closer to the art anyways
20160609 04:02:40< shadowm> WML can "link" with other WML code, and Lua code.
20160609 04:02:45< shadowm> Same applies to Lua.
20160609 04:02:51< iceiceice> not in the sense that the GPL normally means
20160609 04:03:06< iceiceice> WML doesn't "link" with wesnoth
20160609 04:03:24< shadowm> Wesnoth runs WML and also provides an API platform it can use.
20160609 04:03:31< iceiceice> afaik it would be perfectly legal for us to license all campaign wml under the MIT license for instance
20160609 04:03:34< ancestral> http://www.jbkempf.com/blog/post/2012/How-to-properly-relicense-a-large-open-source-project-part-2
20160609 04:03:35< iceiceice> and distribute it with the game that way
20160609 04:04:07< iceiceice> and the art
20160609 04:04:30< iceiceice> if we had group permission to relicense the individual assets that way
20160609 04:05:04< pydsigner> See, the problem is with the GPL
20160609 04:05:08< pydsigner> It's so hamfisted
20160609 04:05:08< shadowm> Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if I was allowed to relicense the entirety of my add-ons under CC BY-SA-NC-ND.
20160609 04:05:13< shadowm> Including WML.
20160609 04:05:37< shadowm> But other people might take fault to the fact that I would be using WML that was originally published under the GPL and even included with the game.
20160609 04:05:41-!- hk238 [~kvirc@t224.ip7.netikka.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 04:05:59< iceiceice> i see
20160609 04:06:13< shadowm> I can't ND that because the original license is infectious with regards to derivative work licensing.
20160609 04:06:18< pydsigner> There's a lot of counterargument in the thread
20160609 04:06:20< iceiceice> yes
20160609 04:06:39< ancestral> How many other active projects would you estimate are actually using recent (last 5 years?) WML implementations from Wesnoth?
20160609 04:06:59< pydsigner> The only good news that I found was that non-GPL non-code can be linked with GPL code
20160609 04:07:25< ancestral> (Obviously, the definition of “project” is perhaps not easily definable.)
20160609 04:07:33< iceiceice> pydsigner, why do you want to allow arbirtary CC licenses?
20160609 04:07:42< iceiceice> i can see the argument for allowing other copyleft licenses
20160609 04:07:49< iceiceice> but most of the CC licenses are not that
20160609 04:07:59< pydsigner> Because I'd rather allow even proprietary licenses
20160609 04:08:01< ancestral> I would encourage maybe specific CC licenses
20160609 04:08:12< ancestral> s/maybe//
20160609 04:08:17< pydsigner> CC BY-SA is the encouraged license
20160609 04:08:19< iceiceice> pydsigner, i think this project more than most has historically been totally committed to copyleft
20160609 04:08:31< iceiceice> i think theres a very good argument for CC-BY-SA
20160609 04:08:39< iceiceice> i dont see why we would allow CC-BY-ND or something on the add-on servre
20160609 04:08:59< iceiceice> that doesnt even seem desirable to me
20160609 04:09:03< shadowm> You should spend 6 years making an add-on and its accompanying original artwork and then reconsider the idea. :P
20160609 04:09:17< ancestral> Was it Bethesda that is doing damage control over people “stealing” other mods?
20160609 04:09:20< shadowm> Or alternatively shell out $1000.
20160609 04:09:21< pydsigner> Or spend your own money on accompanying original artwork
20160609 04:09:30 * pydsigner is ninja'd
20160609 04:09:31< iceiceice> most of the people who contributed to the project did it under a copy left license
20160609 04:09:44< iceiceice> with the idea that, others would have as much right to take their work and continue later, as they do
20160609 04:09:52< pydsigner> BTW, why would you not want to allow ND?
20160609 04:10:00< iceiceice> because i want poeple to allow derivatives
20160609 04:10:05< pydsigner> On an individual segment of art?
20160609 04:10:06< iceiceice> if they say ND then they aren't really sharing
20160609 04:10:16< shadowm> As I understand it, that right will continue to be respected. If you want to copyleft your work, by all means, knock yourself out.
20160609 04:10:26< pydsigner> Maybe I don't want to see someone's MSPaint hackjob of my portrait
20160609 04:10:31< iceiceice> too bad
20160609 04:10:35< iceiceice> then dont put it on the add-on server
20160609 04:11:00< iceiceice> i think that rather petty anyways
20160609 04:11:08< pydsigner> That's a horrible stance to take from a quality-encouragement perspective
20160609 04:11:36< iceiceice> i think most people who contribute like the idea of free software, sharing, and copyleft
20160609 04:11:42< iceiceice> if you take that away, that may also be harmful
20160609 04:12:02< pydsigner> So consider that anything released under a CC license
20160609 04:12:16< pydsigner> *can* be reused by any other project
20160609 04:12:22< shadowm> It's not being taken away any more that Linux allowing you to run proprietary programs takes your freedom away.
20160609 04:12:46-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 04:12:55< iceiceice> the current status of the project is that all content is GPL
20160609 04:13:09< iceiceice> everyone who contributed can potentially fork the project and take it in their own direction
20160609 04:13:10< pydsigner> So long as, depending on the exact license, you *) don't sell it *) don't change it *) give credit
20160609 04:13:11< iceiceice> we all own it
20160609 04:13:15< ancestral> The reality is, outside the developers, there are probably more Windows players than anybody else, and I would wager most Windows players don’t care at all about copyrights.
20160609 04:13:16< pydsigner> Those are mostly healthy things
20160609 04:13:24< ancestral> (Yes, I’m generalizing, but I’m trying to get at a point.)
20160609 04:13:32< iceiceice> pydsigner, if you say "don't change it"
20160609 04:13:33< iceiceice> that is worthless
20160609 04:13:38< pydsigner> Wat
20160609 04:13:53< iceiceice> art in wesonth gets reused by other game projects all the times
20160609 04:13:59< iceiceice> but they may need to modify it slighly to fit their needs
20160609 04:14:05< pydsigner> What percentage of UMC take mainline portraits and use them unmodified
20160609 04:14:07< iceiceice> in a CC-BY-ND its not clear i can even crop it
20160609 04:14:16< pydsigner> iceiceice: Honestly? I don't care about them
20160609 04:14:17< iceiceice> CC-BY-ND is total garbage
20160609 04:14:25< ancestral> Yeah
20160609 04:14:53< pydsigner> I don't give a single crap about AA being able to recrop a portrait that I commissioned to be used with Wesnoth
20160609 04:15:06< iceiceice> pydsigner, for me, part of the deal is
20160609 04:15:08< iceiceice> i work for free
20160609 04:15:12< iceiceice> i give my code away for free
20160609 04:15:17< iceiceice> and the artists give their art away for free
20160609 04:15:25< iceiceice> evreybody is sharing
20160609 04:15:29< shadowm> Not all of them do.
20160609 04:15:30< iceiceice> if the art were proprietary
20160609 04:15:41< iceiceice> then thats i'm getting the crappy end of the stick
20160609 04:15:50< pydsigner> CC BY-ND ≠ proprietary
20160609 04:15:53< iceiceice> in crude terms
20160609 04:16:11< iceiceice> if the code is GPL and the art is CC-BY-ND
20160609 04:16:19< iceiceice> that means that the guy who holds copyright to the art
20160609 04:16:30< iceiceice> has more legal rights to fork the project than i do basically
20160609 04:16:42< iceiceice> he could fork the project and find new programmers and carry on
20160609 04:16:48< iceiceice> and relicense his own work as he likes
20160609 04:16:55-!- hk238 [~kvirc@t224.ip7.netikka.fi] has quit [Quit: http://www.kvirc.net/ 4.9.1 Aria]
20160609 04:16:56< iceiceice> but i have no right even to modify the art
20160609 04:16:59< pydsigner> And you could fork the project, find new artists, and carry on
20160609 04:17:03< iceiceice> no, i cant
20160609 04:17:06< iceiceice> i have to throw out all his art
20160609 04:17:08< iceiceice> or use it exactly as is
20160609 04:17:30< iceiceice> there is a huge difference between copyleft and CC-BY-ND
20160609 04:17:42< pydsigner> Yes there is
20160609 04:18:25< pydsigner> But ok, so here's something; do you only contribute code to projects under the GPL so that you don't feel bad about using the art?
20160609 04:18:40< pydsigner> Because, for me, using the GPL is unilateral
20160609 04:18:43< vultraz> Now that's an interesting question
20160609 04:19:06< iceiceice> i have contributed to many projects for many reasons
20160609 04:19:09< iceiceice> and stopped for many reasons
20160609 04:19:12< iceiceice> i cant make blanket statements
20160609 04:19:22< pydsigner> I'd *rather* release my story and code under separate licenses, and neither the GPL
20160609 04:19:51< pydsigner> But I put my hours into the project because I want to produce something awesome that I and others can enjoy
20160609 04:20:13< iceiceice> pydsigner, alot of add-ons get abandoned
20160609 04:20:19< pydsigner> And if part of that awesomeness means hiring an artist who wants to use the CC BY-ND, then, hey, it's my money
20160609 04:20:20< iceiceice> and then picked up by others
20160609 04:20:41< pydsigner> iceiceice: Yes I realize that
20160609 04:20:42< iceiceice> i think when you hire the artist, generally they assign copyright to you
20160609 04:21:02< pydsigner> That depends on the artist.
20160609 04:21:12< pydsigner> And how big your budget is.
20160609 04:21:47< iceiceice> is this something that actually happened, or purely a hypothetical
20160609 04:22:03< iceiceice> did you actually find an artist to work on your campaign who would only use CC-BY-ND?
20160609 04:22:19< vultraz> Wesnoth is extremely lenient in is practices regarding mod/umc ownership and use, I hope you guys realize. 
20160609 04:22:24< pydsigner> I found an artist that preferred CC BY-ND
20160609 04:22:53< iceiceice> look, everyone who creates things prefers to own them
20160609 04:22:57< ancestral> Exactly
20160609 04:23:07< iceiceice> but the only way wesnoth could work is if we all agreed to share it
20160609 04:23:21< vultraz> for the record, I have also found a music artist who prefers a non GPL license.
20160609 04:23:26< iceiceice> i dont see any particular reason to accomodate people who dont want to share, sorry
20160609 04:23:35< iceiceice> if they want to use CC-BY-SA instead of GPL, i get that
20160609 04:23:36< shadowm> This is my opinion as server admin: we "own" the add-ons server right now and do absolutely nothing useful with it, so we might as well give people the choice to not require us to "own" it and allow them to do as they consider best to make better add-ons. As server user: it really sucks when I come across music or art that is freely available under a CC license but I can't use it because it's ...
20160609 04:23:39< vultraz> iceiceice: other modding communities get along perfectly fine without everyone pooling everything
20160609 04:23:39< pydsigner> You're straw-manning
20160609 04:23:42< shadowm> ... not a license compatible with the GNU GPL.
20160609 04:24:06< pydsigner> Because the BY-ND is perfectly sufficient for 99% of use cases
20160609 04:24:27< pydsigner> Do you want art for 99% of use cases or 0%?
20160609 04:24:39< vultraz> iceiceice: as I just said, we have extremely lenient practices regarding use of each other's mods/umc. 
20160609 04:24:40< iceiceice> no, i think CC-BY-ND is actually garbage, and we should actively discourage people from making "free game art" under that license to the extent possible
20160609 04:24:44< shadowm> And I'd prefer if we didn't invoke rhetoric treating the add-ons server's contents as part of "Wesnoth", because I'm fairly sure that if I go and make a poll on the forums you'll see that most authors actually feel neglected by the developers.
20160609 04:24:58< shadowm> License matters aside.
20160609 04:24:59< pydsigner> iceiceice: Where did I say that this was "free"?
20160609 04:25:13< ancestral> QUICK QUESTION
20160609 04:25:30< ancestral> How many people present in this discussion would call themselves art contributors to Wesnoth?
20160609 04:25:31< iceiceice> pydsigner, the add-on server is currently a repository of free software, free games, free assets, free addons
20160609 04:25:41< pydsigner> ancestral: Kinda?
20160609 04:25:43< iceiceice> when we prevoiusly emailed like months ago about relicnsing
20160609 04:25:54< iceiceice> it wasnt about "deciding not to be a free software project anymore"
20160609 04:25:58< iceiceice> or abandoning copyleft
20160609 04:26:00< shadowm> ancestral: I contributed three animations and gave someone greenlight to franken a boatload of units I made.
20160609 04:26:01< ancestral> Perhaps it would be useful to ask people like Jetrel or Lord Bob for their opinions
20160609 04:26:05< iceiceice> it was about, expanding the list to include CC-BY-SA
20160609 04:26:11< shadowm> For mainline.
20160609 04:26:16< ancestral> shadowm: Yes, I do recognize that. You have done some incredible stuff :)
20160609 04:26:16< pydsigner> ancestral: I have some icons somewhere
20160609 04:26:20< iceiceice> i doubt if theres any support on the ML for allowing CC-BY-ND in any official wesnoth stuff
20160609 04:26:45 * vultraz groans
20160609 04:26:54< shadowm> It won't be allowed in OFFICIAL Wesnoth stuff.
20160609 04:27:01< celticminstrel> CC-BY-ND for art is probably a bit much... for WML, I don't see a problem with it.
20160609 04:27:02< ancestral> I would say please partner with some of the art lords before this PR merge
20160609 04:27:10< iceiceice> i tihnk i agree with AI0867
20160609 04:27:15< vultraz> And so the circle turns...
20160609 04:27:39< iceiceice> it will be a huge pain in the ass for other content creators
20160609 04:27:43< vultraz> Are we incapable of coming to any consensus?
20160609 04:27:48< celticminstrel> Also, the license of content on the addons server has nothing to do with the license of the project or whether it's free software.
20160609 04:27:48< iceiceice> if they can no longer use stuff from other people's addons
20160609 04:27:49< ancestral> (Unless their opinions were already be voiced and I wasn’t aware of it.)
20160609 04:28:02< iceiceice> that basically condemns UMC to licensing hell
20160609 04:28:11< celticminstrel> Though I suppose it's true that allowing any license overcomplicates things...
20160609 04:28:14< vultraz> OTHER PROJECTS GET ALONG FINE!
20160609 04:29:26< pydsigner> iceiceice: You're exaggerating again
20160609 04:29:36< iceiceice> in what way?
20160609 04:30:02< vultraz> you keep acting like such a thing is a death sentence for UMC. What about people who don't *want* their stuff to be used by anyone?
20160609 04:30:17< iceiceice> that means that
20160609 04:30:22< iceiceice> anytime you want to use anything from an addon
20160609 04:30:28< pydsigner> If you can't be bothered to read an ART_LICENSE file and copying part of its content before lifting another UMC's asset
20160609 04:30:30< iceiceice> you need to keep track of all the various licenses they might be using
20160609 04:30:39< iceiceice> many of the users have no idea about licenses at all
20160609 04:30:45< vultraz> You have obviously never modded for Skyrim.
20160609 04:30:46< iceiceice> and might struggle to understand them
20160609 04:30:52< iceiceice> it's so much simpler
20160609 04:30:59< iceiceice> to just say, everything is free to use and modify
20160609 04:31:01< pydsigner> iceiceice: Good, then maybe we'll actually increase understanding of this stuff
20160609 04:31:06< iceiceice> no... i think what will really happen is
20160609 04:31:08< ancestral> vultraz: To be fair, this two decisions. One is specifically the PR and the add-on server, but the other is the actual project, long term
20160609 04:31:08< vultraz> what pydsigner said
20160609 04:31:11< iceiceice> people will just violate the license
20160609 04:31:15< iceiceice> and act as they always have
20160609 04:31:25< iceiceice> copying art from addons to arbitrary places on their hard rdrive
20160609 04:31:27< vultraz> then we take action
20160609 04:31:28< iceiceice> then using it in their later projects
20160609 04:31:32< iceiceice> and then people will get mad
20160609 04:31:37< vultraz> your stance is "we can't do this because it's not what people have always done"
20160609 04:31:40< iceiceice> and we'll have to sort it all out
20160609 04:31:56< pydsigner> So let's say we switch to only allowing the BY-SA
20160609 04:31:57< iceiceice> and they'll want our mods to like, take action
20160609 04:32:01< iceiceice> "addon X stole my assets"
20160609 04:32:20< pydsigner> *you get the exact same problem*
20160609 04:32:24< Aginor> iceiceice: GPLv3 would cover WML well as it has been updated to cover interpreted languages better
20160609 04:32:25< iceiceice> no, you dont actually
20160609 04:32:28< vultraz> ancestral: I'm honestly tired of going around and around this topic
20160609 04:32:32< pydsigner> "addon X didn't credit me for my assets"
20160609 04:32:37 * ancestral nods
20160609 04:32:47< Bonobo> do the small details of these licenses vary from country to country at all?
20160609 04:33:12< vultraz> ancestral: and there's no one who can make an executive decision and end us going in circles.
20160609 04:33:16< iceiceice> pydsigner, that can at least be resolved easily
20160609 04:33:21< pydsigner> And if our add-on server mods can't be bothered to do their job, part of which would be this, then why do we have them?
20160609 04:33:27< pydsigner> iceiceice: And this can't?
20160609 04:33:44< iceiceice> if someone modified a CC-By-ND image
20160609 04:33:51< iceiceice> there's no way they can fix the istuation
20160609 04:34:00< vultraz> Bonobo: I don't think so, but someone else would know more.
20160609 04:34:00< iceiceice> it has to just be deleted basically
20160609 04:34:07< ancestral> Well, shadowm manages the add-on server? And shadowm has contributed art before. And code before. And has been doing this for years.
20160609 04:34:08< iceiceice> an attribution problem can be fixed by, adding proper attribution
20160609 04:34:51< iceiceice> they dont have to throw out art and remake it
20160609 04:34:58< pydsigner> iceiceice: I have no problem with deleting add-ons of people who can't be bothered to do due diligence
20160609 04:35:04< pydsigner> Absolutely none.
20160609 04:35:06< ancestral> So I dunno, if he says this is good, that’s good enough for me
20160609 04:35:14< vultraz> what pydsigner said
20160609 04:35:23< iceiceice> pydsigner, i think you should just have a second add-on server
20160609 04:35:29< iceiceice> so that poeple explicitly have to realize that
20160609 04:35:33< Aginor> I think this discussion needs to be brought to the mailing list, as I've said repeatedly in the past
20160609 04:35:36< iceiceice> they are going into a "not necessarily for share" zone
20160609 04:35:39< SigurdFD> agree
20160609 04:35:42< vultraz> Aginor: *it has*
20160609 04:35:47< iceiceice> its extremely useful to have a "all this stuff is for share" zone
20160609 04:36:11< Aginor> vultraz: good, what's the outcome? have I been dropped of the ML? because I don't think I got any mails from it
20160609 04:36:15< pydsigner> iceiceice: Do you realize what you're doing though?
20160609 04:36:23< vultraz> Aginor: a long time ago
20160609 04:36:39< pydsigner> Who produces good content? *not the guy who can't be bothered to read licenses*
20160609 04:36:57< vultraz> iceiceice: the addons server is periodically restarted. Next time, we can simply impose new restrictions.
20160609 04:36:59< pydsigner> Who are you pandering to here? *not the guy who produces the content people want to use*
20160609 04:37:09< vultraz> and throw up a big fat banner about it
20160609 04:37:12< shadowm> Aginor: The outcome of the overarching goal (changing Wesnoth's art license to a non-GPL copyleft license): "yes, we should do it". Then no-one actively works on it.
20160609 04:37:23< Aginor> vultraz: what was the decision? why can't we abide by that decision? if we are revisiting it, why don't we do it visibly?
20160609 04:37:33< vultraz> Aginor: what shadowm said
20160609 04:37:35< iceiceice> pydsigner, i dont think thats really true
20160609 04:37:41< pydsigner> Aginor: There's 60 comments on github right now on the PR
20160609 04:37:43< shadowm> Aginor: Last time I brought up the non-copyleft licenses tangent I was completely ignored by the person who started the thread in the first place, and everyone else.
20160609 04:37:43< iceiceice> or at least
20160609 04:37:49< iceiceice> i dont think that doing this will improve quality noticeably
20160609 04:38:00< iceiceice> and it seems obvious to inconvenience evreyone
20160609 04:38:17< vultraz> iceiceice: I hope you also realize that the majority of addons are low quality.
20160609 04:38:35< shadowm> Here's a question: if you mainline devs won't make sure my campaign isn't broken at a moment's notice during a feature freeze, why should I have to give you my stuff for free on paper even if you won't actually make use of it in a billion years?
20160609 04:38:45< shadowm> You could at least ask me nicely and I'll consider relicensing it.
20160609 04:38:56< vultraz> there are very few good quality addons.
20160609 04:39:03< iceiceice> because i think that the people who play your add-on should have the right to use your assets
20160609 04:39:13< shadowm> AND THEY DO.
20160609 04:39:17< iceiceice> good
20160609 04:39:22< iceiceice> they do because, we dont allow CC-By-ND
20160609 04:39:25< shadowm> They can at least look at them, which is good enough a use for 99% of the audience.
20160609 04:40:23< iceiceice> we require a copyleft license
20160609 04:40:23< iceiceice> no, "at least look at them" != "use"
20160609 04:40:23< Aginor> pydsigner: but github *isn't* the official forum for discussing project future and lisencing, it's the forum for *code*
20160609 04:40:23< vultraz> iceiceice: show me another game where a modder can just go take another mod's resources without permission.
20160609 04:40:23< pydsigner> s/right to use your assets/right to use your assets in any way they want/
20160609 04:40:23< shadowm> The rest will either use artwork I specifically intended for general use (and thus is copylefted) and hopefully ask me about the rest that is unique to my campaign.
20160609 04:40:27< iceiceice> pydsigner, they hsould have the right to use it and make modifications.
20160609 04:40:35< shadowm> Which, to be clear here, is actually quite a small subset of my output.
20160609 04:40:40< vultraz> iceiceice: *WHY*
20160609 04:40:41< iceiceice> there's no license that allows "limited" modifications
20160609 04:40:44< iceiceice> its all or none
20160609 04:40:57< vultraz> *Why* is it so important to be able to do this
20160609 04:41:33< iceiceice> vultraz, sharing is important
20160609 04:41:44< pydsigner> Lol
20160609 04:41:47< iceiceice> the whole free software project
20160609 04:41:50< iceiceice> is motivated by the idea that 
20160609 04:41:58< vultraz> oh screw the FSP
20160609 04:41:59< iceiceice> by sharing and allowing people to remix and rematch and improve 
20160609 04:42:08< shadowm> Free Software Foundation, you mean?
20160609 04:42:09< iceiceice> we get further ahead as a community
20160609 04:42:21< iceiceice> than if we all cling desperately to our IP
20160609 04:42:21< vultraz> I fail to see that we have done that
20160609 04:42:28< vultraz> I see hundreds of mediocre addons
20160609 04:42:37< iceiceice> if those people di dnot share
20160609 04:42:38< pydsigner> iceiceice: How am I clinging desperately to my IP here
20160609 04:42:40< iceiceice> we would have like zero add-ons
20160609 04:42:44< iceiceice> the whole "frankening" thing
20160609 04:42:46< iceiceice> would be impossible
20160609 04:42:52< iceiceice> if most of the units were CC-BY-Nd
20160609 04:43:07< pydsigner> Remember that we aren't talking about core here
20160609 04:43:37< iceiceice> pydsigner, you should understand that, 
20160609 04:43:44< vultraz> Wasn't the proposal to make core BY-SA.
20160609 04:43:44< iceiceice> if you change the add-on server not to be copyleft,
20160609 04:43:53< pydsigner> vultraz: Yes
20160609 04:43:54< iceiceice> a number of UMC creators are going to think they are harmed
20160609 04:44:13< iceiceice> since now they have complex license issues
20160609 04:44:15< iceiceice> where before they had none
20160609 04:44:22< pydsigner> iceiceice: And those UMC creators are lazy ingrates?
20160609 04:44:28< pydsigner> I'm sorry
20160609 04:44:37< iceiceice> i see an obvious cost
20160609 04:44:41< iceiceice> and no obvious benefit
20160609 04:44:46< shadowm> pydsigner: That's a bit rude.
20160609 04:44:52< celticminstrel> I can't even keep up with this conversation right now.
20160609 04:45:11< pydsigner> shadowm: ingrate = ungrateful person
20160609 04:45:13< shadowm> They don't have to see themselves as being hurt in some way if you explain the situation clearly and in plain words.
20160609 04:45:17< vultraz> iceiceice: IIUC, nothing would be stopping people from releasing their stuff purely under the GPL as before, I assume?
20160609 04:45:20< iceiceice> pydsigner, so far as i know, no one has evre suggested not requiring a copyleft license on the add-on server
20160609 04:45:23< iceiceice> in like the 10 years of the project
20160609 04:45:29< iceiceice> and that includes all the poeple who did make good content
20160609 04:45:30< shadowm> pydsigner: Yes, still rude.
20160609 04:46:17< iceiceice> pydsigner, i've seen a lot of cases over time
20160609 04:46:22< iceiceice> where poeple made really cool add-ons
20160609 04:46:26< shadowm> I can provide you with a counterexample.
20160609 04:46:27< iceiceice> in part by pooling resources from lots of other add-ons
20160609 04:46:47< pydsigner> vultraz: Yes
20160609 04:46:56< iceiceice> I mean i would really like to hear what Bob the mighty thinks for isntance
20160609 04:46:59< pydsigner> And that would still be the default after this PR
20160609 04:47:33< pydsigner> All this PR does is broaden the horizons
20160609 04:47:34< iceiceice> shadowm, whats the counterexample
20160609 04:47:48< vultraz> iceiceice: in November 2014, I wrote to a guy about using his music in my addon. He told me unfortunately he could not allow relicensing under the GPL. So here I sit, unable to use this content in my addon.
20160609 04:48:03< shadowm> iceiceice: You are talking to him right now.
20160609 04:48:13< iceiceice> ok
20160609 04:48:21< iceiceice> anyone besides you?
20160609 04:48:28< iceiceice> was there ever an ML discussion about this
20160609 04:48:39< pydsigner> There's metric tons of various CC content that can be used
20160609 04:48:41< shadowm> https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2015-04/msg00017.html
20160609 04:48:53< shadowm> I wasn't explicit about it, granted.
20160609 04:49:14< iceiceice> shadowm, i mean, yeah i know about that
20160609 04:49:19< iceiceice> and i was in that thread
20160609 04:49:32< shadowm> THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE THE BAIT.
20160609 04:49:34< iceiceice> but afaik there were no prior ML threads about changing the license on the add-on server
20160609 04:49:43< shadowm> We could've had this conversation there back then.
20160609 04:49:58< iceiceice> i think in that thread i probably agreed with you
20160609 04:50:06< iceiceice> i think i still thought then that we should all CC_BY_SA on the add-on server
20160609 04:50:14< iceiceice> *allow
20160609 04:50:32< shadowm> No, you did not agree with me.
20160609 04:50:37< vultraz> iceiceice: anything that broadens the pool of things we can use is a good thing, even if other people may not be able to then take them from us.
20160609 04:50:53< shadowm> You simply weren't amongst the people who responded to my email and mostly ignored that specific point.
20160609 04:51:16< vultraz> iceiceice: right now, your 'community pool' theory restricts itself to Wesnoth's content naturally!
20160609 04:51:28< iceiceice> i see
20160609 04:51:32< iceiceice> i think i had a draft response
20160609 04:51:35< iceiceice> that i never actually sent :p
20160609 04:51:42< iceiceice> i did have one early post in the thread
20160609 04:51:48< shadowm> You did reply to Dave's OP instead.
20160609 04:52:02< shadowm> Well, to a reply of a reply of Dave's OP.
20160609 04:52:04< vultraz> pydsigner: I'm sure you agree with me on that
20160609 04:52:08< iceiceice> i'm going to read your email again
20160609 04:52:15< Bonobo> vultraz: what do you define to be low, and what do you define to be a high quality addon?
20160609 04:52:35< iceiceice> i see, i didn't even notice this bit of it the first time around i guess:
20160609 04:52:36< iceiceice> https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2015-04/msg00021.html
20160609 04:52:50< pydsigner> vultraz: That's actually the whole point I'm making
20160609 04:53:09< pydsigner> Well, part of it
20160609 04:53:22< shadowm> iceiceice: In case you haven't noticed, the dev team's conversativeness isn't very appreciated by the community, and I think most people would rather not try to discuss this stuff in the forums (which are the only public discussion platform for content creators).
20160609 04:53:56< shadowm> iceiceice: This is not helped at all by a certain point in the Posting Guidelines that I was specifically asked to add by one of Wesnoth Inc's members.
20160609 04:54:20< shadowm> iceiceice: And not helped either by the devs' long-standing tradition of locking every thread that expresses dissenting opinions with regards to what the game should do/be like.
20160609 04:54:54< iceiceice> whats the posting guideline thing?
20160609 04:54:56< shadowm> So I think you'll find that most people who might have an opinion would rather spend their time doing more productive stuff that doesn't involve fighting a larger crowd with opinions.
20160609 04:54:56< iceiceice> was that recent?
20160609 04:55:02< shadowm> Point 5, from 2010 or so.
20160609 04:55:15< vultraz> Bonobo: to me a high-quality addon is one with high production value - good story especially, and one where it really feels like the author put a lot of time and effort into the details
20160609 04:55:23< shadowm> Nah, it's probably from late 2009.
20160609 04:55:38< shadowm> Er, s/Point 5/Point 4 and its subpoints/
20160609 04:55:48< iceiceice> ok
20160609 04:56:22< iceiceice> so i guess
20160609 04:56:33< iceiceice> at some point this is just a difference of opinion
20160609 04:56:48< pydsigner> Well yeah
20160609 04:56:53< vultraz> Obviously
20160609 04:56:56-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 04:56:56< iceiceice> i think one way you could strengthen the case for allowing restrictive licenses
20160609 04:56:58< iceiceice> would be like
20160609 04:57:10< iceiceice> showing some examples
20160609 04:57:11< Bonobo> some rather dodgy stuff is still in mainline like the rather broken planning mode
20160609 04:57:13< iceiceice> of art you want to use
20160609 04:57:24< iceiceice> that you can't
20160609 04:57:33< iceiceice> my point of view is like
20160609 04:57:41< vultraz> Bonobo: we were discussing removing that, but I think decided not to.
20160609 04:57:51< shadowm> vultraz probably has some examples. I don't yet and I don't intend to spend money producing some until the matter is settled.
20160609 04:58:04< vultraz> [15:47:44]	vultraz	iceiceice: in November 2014, I wrote to a guy about using his music in my addon. He told me unfortunately he could not allow relicensing under the GPL. So here I sit, unable to use this content in my addon.
20160609 04:58:18< vultraz> iceiceice: I just gave you an example ^
20160609 04:58:24< pydsigner> As did I
20160609 04:58:25< shadowm> Since I really really don't want to shell out money for my campaign's hero portraits only to find them used for generic units later.
20160609 04:58:34< Bonobo> does the production value even matter all that much in deciding which is a good addon? there's some stuff that has a few issues but is still quite fun to play. Are those low quality addons you would not mind seeing not exist any more?
20160609 04:59:24< iceiceice> vultraz, i guess basically i'm somewhat skeptical that there's this huge pool of talented artists who will work for cheap but only under ND
20160609 04:59:36< iceiceice> that sounds sort of odd to me
20160609 04:59:37< iceiceice> i could be wrong
20160609 04:59:43< iceiceice> but you could also convince me i'm wrong :)
20160609 04:59:59< shadowm> (That said, I have made unit sprites for a few hero units which I'd rather not see used elsewhere -- at least not without heavy frankening. But thus far I've operated under a "if you borrow them I will frown at you at every opportunity and probably not play your add-on" basis and it's not worth the hassle of relicensing them under a license with a different set of restrictions.)
20160609 05:00:00< vultraz> I have no idea.
20160609 05:00:00< Bonobo> a good example of this is something like ageless era which has some really awful stuff in it but for many it's fun since it gives a much larger variety of units
20160609 05:00:03-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 05:00:07< vultraz> Why is 'cheap' a criteria?
20160609 05:00:15< iceiceice> theres no obvious connection between ND and quality
20160609 05:00:25< vultraz> I don't even remember if the guy's still was ND specifically. Might have been SA.
20160609 05:00:28< iceiceice> and thats supposedly what we would be gaining as a community by allowing this
20160609 05:00:39< iceiceice> and there's an obvious thing we would be losing
20160609 05:00:45< iceiceice> which is convenience of making new add-ons
20160609 05:00:51< iceiceice> from the old stuff
20160609 05:00:57< pydsigner> False
20160609 05:01:01< shadowm> (Plus I guess the SA part wouldn't help with the part that bothers me most anyway.)
20160609 05:01:03-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20160609 05:01:09< iceiceice> pydsigner, it is obvoiusly harmed in a very real way
20160609 05:01:09< pydsigner> Since all the old stuff is already GPL
20160609 05:01:19< iceiceice> by "old" stuff i mean
20160609 05:01:20< iceiceice> in the future
20160609 05:01:22< iceiceice> after we adopt your change
20160609 05:01:34< iceiceice> people will now have to pay attention to licenses
20160609 05:01:38< vultraz> iceiceice: that is worth it
20160609 05:01:41< pydsigner> That's a good thing
20160609 05:01:50< pydsigner> Even without any other gain
20160609 05:01:53< iceiceice> vultraz, is it worth it?
20160609 05:01:53< vultraz> some things people won't be able to use
20160609 05:02:01< vultraz> and that's alright
20160609 05:02:02< iceiceice> no, that's inconvenient
20160609 05:02:08< iceiceice> it might be worth it
20160609 05:02:10< pydsigner> Making people look at what they're using and credit it is super good
20160609 05:02:11< iceiceice> but it is a negative
20160609 05:02:24< iceiceice> pydsigner, the add-on server has been the way it is for years
20160609 05:02:32< vultraz> iceiceice: the whole 'community pool' thing also means you can't make anything unique without it being used everywhere!
20160609 05:02:34< iceiceice> this is a change to the rules that all UMC will have to learn and get used to
20160609 05:02:50< iceiceice> vultraz, thats called sharing
20160609 05:03:01< iceiceice> i dont mind sharing my code and seeing it used everywhere
20160609 05:03:03< pydsigner> Only UMC that are adding art from other UMC
20160609 05:03:15< pydsigner> iceiceice: Good for you
20160609 05:03:27< vultraz> iceiceice: sharing = good. being not given the option to even say someone cannot use someone = bad
20160609 05:03:38< iceiceice> no, i disagree
20160609 05:03:42< vultraz> something*
20160609 05:03:44< iceiceice> i think creating a community pool of resources is good
20160609 05:03:53< iceiceice> helping people make free games and tell stories
20160609 05:03:58< iceiceice> thats like the purpose of wesnoth
20160609 05:04:02< vultraz> [15:58:22]	shadowm	Since I really really don't want to shell out money for my campaign's hero portraits only to find them used for generic units later.
20160609 05:04:06< vultraz> Like, this
20160609 05:04:07< iceiceice> you say it yourself, wesnoth is like an SDK
20160609 05:04:15< iceiceice> that poeple can use to make free games
20160609 05:04:21< vultraz> Yes, wesnoth is perhaps that way
20160609 05:04:32< vultraz> that doesn't mean the content people make with it have to be!
20160609 05:04:33< iceiceice> the engine is shared
20160609 05:04:35< iceiceice> the assets are shared
20160609 05:05:12< pydsigner> Here's a picture we currently can't use: http://mythcreants.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fantasy_v03_by_FPesantez_doppingqnk-d7k2hne-548x274.jpg
20160609 05:05:18-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:06:14< vultraz> and here's a track by the music guy I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlNfd2Mh-f4
20160609 05:07:41< shadowm> Historical opinion on the GPL's derivatives requirement: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22098&p=308406#p308406
20160609 05:07:46< vultraz> (again, it might have been SA not ND)
20160609 05:08:17< shadowm> (Still not saying we should allow restrictive licenses for mainline content.)
20160609 05:08:21< pydsigner> Here's another bit of art: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dyssdggotevhhhq/deoran-candidate-older.jpg?dl=0
20160609 05:08:39< iceiceice> well
20160609 05:09:27-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
20160609 05:09:41< shadowm> Just pointing out that my position on the matter isn't something I pulled out of my ass one night and decided to subtly push into an ML discussion.
20160609 05:10:05< vultraz> iceiceice: the simple fact here is that the community pool cannot expand if we keep going the way we have
20160609 05:10:44< vultraz> iceiceice: so, if we have to deviate from that model, fine
20160609 05:10:46< iceiceice> i think there's already a consensus for SA
20160609 05:11:05< iceiceice> i'm not really happy about non-copyleft stuff
20160609 05:11:22< iceiceice> but i dont feel inclined to argue that much mor eabout it i guess
20160609 05:11:30< vultraz> Neither do I
20160609 05:11:38< iceiceice> i think you guys should post on ML though
20160609 05:11:48< SigurdFD> Yes, This difference between CC-BY-ND and CC-BY-SA for add-on server sounds significant enough to warrant a new mailing list discussion.
20160609 05:11:52< iceiceice> like, a new thread saying you want to chang the ADD-on server
20160609 05:12:02-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 05:12:03< iceiceice> the original thread was about SA
20160609 05:12:07< vultraz> oh god :|
20160609 05:12:16-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:12:23< iceiceice> i think a lot of people would feel like this was a stealth change
20160609 05:12:29< iceiceice> idk
20160609 05:12:35-!- atarocch [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:12:38< shadowm> If it must be done then someone else do it, because you people have always ignored my ML posts.
20160609 05:12:44< iceiceice> i think that most likely you'll still get what you want,
20160609 05:12:50< iceiceice> there's not that many GPL fans left i guess
20160609 05:12:50< pydsigner> There's how many people involved on that github issue? Just saying.
20160609 05:13:01< iceiceice> and probably not that many copyleft fans either, who knows
20160609 05:13:02-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 05:13:17< iceiceice> pydsigner, in theory everyone who is active on the project is supposed to read the list
20160609 05:13:19< shadowm> Alternatively, we can appeal to our Release Manager's judgment.
20160609 05:13:21< iceiceice> they aren't supposed to read pull requests
20160609 05:13:37< iceiceice> well look,
20160609 05:13:37< vultraz> iceiceice: the list is dead
20160609 05:13:40< pydsigner> iceiceice: My point is that a lot of them did, and we have proof because they commented.
20160609 05:13:40< iceiceice> let me put it this way
20160609 05:13:42< vultraz> and no one wants to use or read it
20160609 05:13:47< shadowm> Although I honestly believed it would be enough to call the attention of the only person who's taken care of the add-ons server besides me for the past 4 years.
20160609 05:13:57< iceiceice> if i discovered by uploading an add-on that all the license stuff had canged
20160609 05:14:08< iceiceice> and i never knew about it before that
20160609 05:14:14< vultraz> iceiceice: obviously, we would plaster a giant warning beforehand
20160609 05:14:15< iceiceice> i probably would have sent an email to the ML asking about it
20160609 05:14:20< shadowm> Yeah how many UMC authors do you think are subscribed to the ML?
20160609 05:14:21< iceiceice> if i hadnt been on IRC today
20160609 05:14:25< iceiceice> then i guess thats how i would have learned
20160609 05:14:26< shadowm> Or even know of its existence.
20160609 05:14:36< Aginor> post in forums too
20160609 05:14:40< pydsigner> iceiceice: I don't suggest doing this without posting on the forums
20160609 05:14:46 * pydsigner is ninja'd again
20160609 05:14:49< vultraz> The ML is the most inefficient form of communication we have
20160609 05:14:50< iceiceice> ok
20160609 05:14:55< iceiceice> i thought you were like, about to merge :p
20160609 05:14:56< vultraz> Barely anyone reads it
20160609 05:15:00< vultraz> Almost no one uses it
20160609 05:15:11< Aginor> I agree, I thought this was just about to merge
20160609 05:15:29< Aginor> vultraz: I disagree with those statements
20160609 05:15:32< pydsigner> I can't merge it.
20160609 05:16:05< iceiceice> so theres alot to be said that the ML is seen as conservative
20160609 05:16:09< iceiceice> because it has all the old devs
20160609 05:16:17< iceiceice> i mean i've been on the other side of this before :p
20160609 05:16:20< iceiceice> when trying to push a change
20160609 05:16:32< iceiceice> but i still htink its the most fair way
20160609 05:16:33< shadowm> Except for those who've already left us over another license-related squabble.
20160609 05:16:37< iceiceice> the truth is that
20160609 05:16:42< iceiceice> theres been a lot of turnover in the project
20160609 05:16:46< iceiceice> theres a lot of new devs
20160609 05:16:52< iceiceice> and many old devs gone
20160609 05:16:56< vultraz> A problem is we have no one to make executive decisions
20160609 05:17:00< vultraz> "this is what we're going to do"
20160609 05:17:07< vultraz> And then we have to figure out how to do it
20160609 05:17:17-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:17:18< shadowm> <vultraz> A problem is we have no one to make executive decisions <- He said, as the Release Manager.
20160609 05:17:34< iceiceice> i think many people concieved it as being a project adamantly committed to GPL / free software / sharing etc.
20160609 05:17:53< iceiceice> but clearly a lot of people are open to CC-anything
20160609 05:18:05< iceiceice> and if so then thats what should happen
20160609 05:18:22< iceiceice> but it might not be that many, idk
20160609 05:18:30< vultraz> The project will never expand outside it's bubble if we keep shoving the GPL down everyone's throats
20160609 05:18:37< iceiceice> i mean its more damaging to the project to push through a change like this
20160609 05:18:44< iceiceice> that can be seen as changing the character of the project
20160609 05:18:54< iceiceice> without informing everyone who feels like they are still invested / contributing
20160609 05:18:59< shadowm> Except the _project_ is not the add-ons server.
20160609 05:19:08< shadowm> <shadowm> And I'd prefer if we didn't invoke rhetoric treating the add-ons server's contents as part of "Wesnoth", because I'm fairly sure that if I go and make a poll on the forums you'll see that most authors actually feel neglected by the developers.
20160609 05:19:12< iceiceice> yeah but its closely related
20160609 05:19:24< pydsigner> iceiceice: Better to fork off part of the community onto an semi-unofficial add-ons server
20160609 05:19:26< vultraz> shadowm has a point
20160609 05:20:30< iceiceice> pydsigner, i guess like
20160609 05:20:33< iceiceice> with wesnoth its always been simple
20160609 05:20:35< vultraz> But the point stull stands
20160609 05:20:35< iceiceice> anything on the forums
20160609 05:20:39< iceiceice> is implicitly GPL
20160609 05:20:45< iceiceice> anything on the add-on server is implictly GPL
20160609 05:20:51< vultraz> Isn;t it tiring seeing the same stuff in every addon?
20160609 05:20:53< shadowm> Yes, you've said that at least two dozen times already. :p
20160609 05:20:59< pydsigner> That's still the case until otherwise mentioned
20160609 05:21:00< iceiceice> would we get rid of the "implicit" GPL on the forums also?
20160609 05:21:11< pydsigner> And let me point out
20160609 05:21:13< vultraz> what pydsigner said
20160609 05:21:26< pydsigner> That one of the more popular add-ons currently on the add-ons server,
20160609 05:21:41-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160609 05:21:50< pydsigner> Has basically said "I disagree with the button I clicked to upload this stuff so sue me"
20160609 05:22:04< iceiceice> where?
20160609 05:22:16< vultraz> is it That One? or another one
20160609 05:22:19-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:22:23< pydsigner> That One
20160609 05:22:31< vultraz> oh dear
20160609 05:22:32< shadowm> Wait, is it _That_ One?
20160609 05:22:42< shadowm> I thought it was the other one.
20160609 05:23:00< pydsigner> It's *That* other *That One*
20160609 05:23:05< shadowm> AFAICT _That_ One has the verbatim GNU GPL-- yes.
20160609 05:23:23-!- Lohengramm [sid1929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ukxtoncrmyasiilf] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 05:23:24< iceiceice> not following :p
20160609 05:23:42< shadowm> pydsigner is talking about A New Order's license file I think.
20160609 05:23:59< pydsigner> Link forthcoming
20160609 05:24:06< vultraz> oh That one
20160609 05:24:08< pydsigner> https://github.com/wescamp/A_New_Order-1.10/blob/master/A_New_Order/LICENSE.important.txt
20160609 05:24:23< shadowm> I was going to copy it to a public dir but that works for me too.
20160609 05:24:59< vultraz> I'm going to do something else
20160609 05:25:04< shadowm> lol it's the WesCamp repo.
20160609 05:25:06< vultraz> I'm exhausted with this
20160609 05:25:14< shadowm> pydsigner: You really like twisting the knife, huh?
20160609 05:25:30< pydsigner> shadowm: ?
20160609 05:25:36< iceiceice> pydsigner, i dont actually see a problem with that
20160609 05:25:46< iceiceice> i dont think he disagrees with the button
20160609 05:26:03< iceiceice> he is noting that some of the work is *additionally* available under other licenses
20160609 05:26:06< pydsigner> iceiceice: Scroll to the bottom
20160609 05:26:57< pydsigner> shadowm: I don't follow
20160609 05:27:09< iceiceice> pydsigner, its not clear that that violates the GPL either
20160609 05:27:27< shadowm> pydsigner: Reminding me that WesCamp is dead and how much that's negatively impacted my ability to track translations.
20160609 05:27:27< iceiceice> i mean thats a pretty crappy copyright statement anyways
20160609 05:27:28< pydsigner> iceiceice: Actually it is, because it requires attribution
20160609 05:27:33< iceiceice> does it though?
20160609 05:27:39< iceiceice> or does it "only for commercial games" ?
20160609 05:28:03< iceiceice> "The tilesets are freeware. Even for commercial games. I just want [attribution] in this case: "
20160609 05:28:04< pydsigner> That doesn't even matter
20160609 05:29:05< pydsigner> Because you can use GPL software in a commercial product without putting a specific line in your credits file (other than saying it's GPL)
20160609 05:29:30< iceiceice> i guess i dont know exactly what freeware means, i had to look it up
20160609 05:29:55< iceiceice> well, idk
20160609 05:30:18< shadowm> Uh, you mean what it means legally or in general?
20160609 05:30:23< iceiceice> legally
20160609 05:30:34< pydsigner> Nothing?
20160609 05:30:42< iceiceice> according to wikipedia it "usually" means you can't modify it
20160609 05:30:44< shadowm> Yeah I don't think it means anything in concrete legally.
20160609 05:30:56< iceiceice> well its in a license statement
20160609 05:31:18< iceiceice> so we have to assign some concrete meanign to it
20160609 05:31:19< shadowm> But generally it means "it can be obtained cost-free" (but probably only from the author, it varies).
20160609 05:31:35< pydsigner> iceiceice: It's a horrible license statement
20160609 05:31:36< shadowm> So yes, it's a very bad license statement.
20160609 05:31:58< pydsigner> Plus, it's a horrible English translation of a poor license statement
20160609 05:32:04< shadowm> (e.g. Wesnoth has been called "freeware" before, and that's not technically wrong, but it's not an apt description.)
20160609 05:32:05< pydsigner> Unless there's more beyond the link
20160609 05:32:31 * pydsigner goes to see if the link even lives
20160609 05:32:39< iceiceice> well
20160609 05:33:00< iceiceice> idk you guys tell me, so did the add-on server mods debate this and decid enot to remove it?
20160609 05:33:15< iceiceice> or it was never mentioned until now
20160609 05:34:00< shadowm> I don't think zookeeper is aware of this, not sure.
20160609 05:34:00-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 05:34:01< iceiceice> or the message here is, "the addon server mods don't really want to enforce the GPL thing anyways"
20160609 05:34:13< iceiceice> "so we should change the rules"
20160609 05:34:24< shadowm> As for myself, I am aware. I still don't know what's purportedly being violated here.
20160609 05:34:29-!- Lohengramm [sid1929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oeatltkbtdamcszn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:34:42< shadowm> It just looks like a colorful little rant to me.
20160609 05:35:06< pydsigner> shadowm: read the current add-on server upload text
20160609 05:35:18-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:35:21< shadowm> But he said it's all under the GPL anyway?
20160609 05:35:35< pydsigner> Except Reiner's Tiles
20160609 05:35:45< shadowm> Hmmmm it sounds suspiciously public domain-like to me.
20160609 05:36:02< shadowm> How is it incompatible with the GPL, again?
20160609 05:36:19< shadowm> Is it just because it doesn't carry the "YOU MUST ALLOW EVERYONE ELSE AND THEIR DOGS TO HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS" part?
20160609 05:36:40< pydsigner> http://www.reinerstilesets.de/lizenz/
20160609 05:37:09< shadowm> Ohhh right.
20160609 05:37:19< shadowm> "With other words: You can do everything with my graphics and meshes, EXCEPT everything that directly competes with me."
20160609 05:37:38< iceiceice> wait a minute
20160609 05:38:22< iceiceice> well 
20160609 05:38:27< shadowm> Hey, I think I found some graphics which are actually used in mainline.
20160609 05:38:27< iceiceice> maybe i just misunderstood you both all along
20160609 05:38:40< iceiceice> i thouhgt you were saying that this add-on goes against current policy
20160609 05:38:49< shadowm> http://www.reinerstilesets.de/2d-grafiken/2d-environment/ - "beautiful town iso"
20160609 05:39:30< iceiceice> pydsigner, i think its ok to relicense Reiner's tiles under GPL
20160609 05:39:35< shadowm> Parts of it look like /data/core/images/{grain-sheaf,straw-bale1,straw-bale2}.png .
20160609 05:39:35< iceiceice> " But it becomes completely yours when you make a game or something like that with it."
20160609 05:40:00< pydsigner> You willing to take that to court? Because I sure wouldn't be
20160609 05:40:38< pydsigner> Also do we have someone who can read the german version? Which might shed more light
20160609 05:41:00< shadowm> Lots of people.
20160609 05:41:02< pydsigner> iceiceice: You can take one part and it sounds like x, take another and it sounds like y
20160609 05:41:17< Aginor> zookeeper comes to mind :)
20160609 05:41:44< shadowm> zookeeper is Finnish.
20160609 05:42:02< shadowm> Not sure if he can read German, though, that'd be news to me.
20160609 05:42:02< iceiceice> pydsigner, i think the spirit is pretty clear
20160609 05:42:43< pydsigner> "You can do anything with your game using this asset, but don't rehost the asset, and be sure to credit me"
20160609 05:42:49< shadowm> "You can give away my graphics and meshes besides that. Just not through a ressourcesite."
20160609 05:43:09< Aginor> hmm
20160609 05:43:13< shadowm> Wasn't someone regarding the add-ons server as a resource site of sorts earlier?
20160609 05:43:18< Aginor> maybe I'm mixing up my nationalities
20160609 05:43:56< iceiceice> well he gives lots of examples
20160609 05:44:31< shadowm> I mean, honestly, I'm the most biased party here because I just want to make cool stuff.
20160609 05:44:32< iceiceice> the point is he wants you to use it to make something
20160609 05:44:36< iceiceice> and then its yours
20160609 05:44:54< iceiceice> and then you can ditrsibute what you made
20160609 05:44:54< shadowm> I couldn't care less about the technicalities as long as they didn't prevent me from making cool stuff or other people from playing it.
20160609 05:45:22< shadowm> And yes, I have actually used some of this person's graphics before, in IftU.
20160609 05:46:58< iceiceice> so you would had been a sad panda if he used CC-BY-ND instead :p
20160609 05:47:17< pydsigner> iceiceice: Where did shadowm state that he modified the graphics
20160609 05:47:47< iceiceice> well its unlikely that he wouldn't have had to modify it even slightly
20160609 05:47:56< pydsigner> Yes
20160609 05:47:58< iceiceice> crop things to 72 x 72 and so on
20160609 05:48:34-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160609 05:48:51< pydsigner> But what if the asset was already precropped to 72x72 because it was made by/for a wesnoth user?
20160609 05:49:23< iceiceice> i think the assets should be free for anyone
20160609 05:49:27< iceiceice> who wants to use them in any potential game
20160609 05:49:37< iceiceice> if they need to tweak the color pallete
20160609 05:49:38< shadowm> pydsigner: I'm essentially waiting for someone to copyright-strike me YouTube-style. :p
20160609 05:49:39< pydsigner> And what if shadowm talked to the creator, whose contact info he was able to find because BY, and got him to give permission to recrop?
20160609 05:49:39< iceiceice> or anything else
20160609 05:49:57< pydsigner> And my goal is not to make Wesnoth into a DMCA zone
20160609 05:50:14-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 05:50:23< shadowm> Also, I don't think I modified them in any way that isn't explicitly allowed there, or covered by the three dots in a row.
20160609 05:50:27< iceiceice> look so heres the thing
20160609 05:50:30< pydsigner> Though, TBH, from what I've read, there was a time when Wesnoth *could* have been a DCMA zone
20160609 05:50:31< iceiceice> i think that
20160609 05:50:40< iceiceice> there are a lot of people in the project who will have opinions about these things
20160609 05:50:53< iceiceice> and the IRC channel is not really the appropriate place to have a discussion
20160609 05:51:10< Aginor> ^ +1
20160609 05:51:10< iceiceice> because, it means that if you wanted to participate you hda to be on at some certain time
20160609 05:51:19< Aginor> ^ +10
20160609 05:51:19< iceiceice> and instead, ew'll just have this really exhausting back and forst
20160609 05:51:26< iceiceice> and then it wont resolve it at the end
20160609 05:51:41< pydsigner> Then where shall we take it?
20160609 05:51:48< iceiceice> ML or forums i guess
20160609 05:51:55< pydsigner> Because I was already exhausted from the github discussion
20160609 05:53:19< Aginor> pydsigner: I think you got a lot of knee-jerk reactions on github going "I don't like this coming out of the blue, I'm opposed to it"
20160609 05:53:48< Aginor> so make a sensible discussion, where are interested party have/should have access to and subscriptions to
20160609 05:53:48< shadowm> Remember when people were opposed to Lua or any other embedded scripting language besides WML? :p
20160609 05:54:50< iceiceice> remember when people declared that "wesnoth is balanced" and declared most basic rules changes to be FPI?
20160609 05:55:15< shadowm> Oh yes I still do. Do you have anything to say on the matter?
20160609 05:55:23< shadowm> Because last time I checked that was still the case as of 0 seconds ago.
20160609 05:55:54< iceiceice> no i just thought i would mention i t:p
20160609 05:56:15< shadowm> It's just that the people who used to have a say on the matter haven't been around for like two years, which IMO is excuse enough to want to revisit that subject.
20160609 05:56:40< shadowm> Or skip the "wanting" part and cut to the chase.
20160609 05:57:30< iceiceice> i guess i didnt entirely understand your second sentence, what's the wanting part?
20160609 05:57:41< iceiceice> but anyways i dont really want to open new cans of worms at all right now
20160609 05:57:43< shadowm> *which IMO is excuse enough to revisit the subject.
20160609 05:57:58< iceiceice> i need to go and get some food
20160609 05:58:05< iceiceice> also i dont want to monopolize this at all
20160609 05:58:20< shadowm> I don't have anything to say about balancing, though, because as everyone knows maths and RNG-based gameplay aren't my friends.
20160609 05:58:48< shadowm> I seemed to recall you suggesting in the forums earlier this year that a new discussion on the matter was needed, though.
20160609 05:59:21< iceiceice> i think you have outmaneuvered me :p
20160609 05:59:32< iceiceice> please, relent sir :p
20160609 06:00:21< iceiceice> look let me say it this way
20160609 06:00:31< iceiceice> this was mostly my immediate reaction to learning about the license change
20160609 06:00:39< iceiceice> i didnt know this was happening until i saw it on the channel
20160609 06:00:51< iceiceice> now having thoguht about it for an hour or however long its been
20160609 06:00:54< iceiceice> i mean
20160609 06:01:09< iceiceice> my thought would be that some of the prominent UMC poeple who do this mix-and-match development would be opposed
20160609 06:01:12< iceiceice> but maybe, they aren't
20160609 06:01:14< iceiceice> idk
20160609 06:01:23< iceiceice> also, apparently you guys are strongly in favor
20160609 06:01:26< iceiceice> that counts for alot also
20160609 06:01:32< shadowm> pydsigner: Coordinate with the communications guy (that's vultraz) to ask the forums maybe?
20160609 06:01:46< iceiceice> if theres no one besides me inclined to argue like i did against it
20160609 06:02:06< iceiceice> then i would obv drop it
20160609 06:03:03< shadowm> pydsigner: As well as the ML, which I can't help but regard in disdain after being ignored on repeated occasions and also after suggesting someone to use it to discuss another add-ons server-related change earned me some bad blood from another developer.
20160609 06:03:04< Aginor> I think it's a good thing, but details need to be sorted out and it needs to be circulated with a wider audience
20160609 06:04:21-!- exciton_ [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 06:05:10< shadowm> People will argue about pretty much anything, including the addition of a runtime dependency that's unsolvable in a niche platform.
20160609 06:05:36< shadowm> With effort, however, you can potentially convince them.
20160609 06:06:52< shadowm> (I'm trying to sound motivational here so pydsigner doesn't decide I shadowm'd his PR like the last guy.)
20160609 06:08:10< Aginor> it's a shame my IP lawyer friend moved to a different city, otherwise I'd hassle him about this situation :)
20160609 06:08:27-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 06:08:54< shadowm> Why don't you just follow and capture him? We've been needing the help of a pet lawyer since like 2008.
20160609 06:09:18< iceiceice> shadowm, i mean that last guy also did some things that didn't help his cause
20160609 06:09:20< shadowm> I'm sure they shouldn't be much harder to feed that the server hamsters.
20160609 06:09:31< Aginor> it sounds like a bad idea to capture lawyers, they might sue
20160609 06:10:37< iceiceice> maybe the lawyers can double as the server hamsters
20160609 06:10:43< iceiceice> :)
20160609 06:11:06< Aginor> that's how you either get server messes or legal messes
20160609 06:11:20< shadowm> We can cut the lawyer's dominant hand off so he can't file the required paperwork.
20160609 06:11:25< iceiceice> at least the lawyers will be getting some exercise
20160609 06:11:38< shadowm> Just like people cut dog tails and ears off for... some reason.
20160609 06:12:04< iceiceice> yeah if you take away his pen, its like declawing a cat i guess
20160609 06:14:30< iceiceice> gn folks
20160609 06:14:36-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20160609 06:15:44-!- atarocch [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160609 06:20:30-!- SigurdFD [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-176-151.zoominternet.net] has quit []
20160609 06:30:31-!- exciton_ [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 06:30:44-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 06:42:37-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B06923D4911EA2918A39E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 06:45:12-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 06:48:57-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160609 06:49:05-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 06:49:34-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160609 06:52:39-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160609 06:52:40-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160609 06:57:46-!- atarocch [~atarocch@natmobil.sfa.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 07:06:16-!- horrowind [~Icedove@2a02:810a:83c0:1c18:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 07:31:54< TC01> random lurker here, but I was reading the earlier conversation about licensing... specifically vultraz's comments about other modding communities
20160609 07:32:26< TC01> The Civilization modding communities (especially Civ 4) have always traditionally worked under the assumption that all posted content is reusable in other Civ mods, provided attribution is given (e.g. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=455115)
20160609 07:32:39< TC01> It's just one data point, but my suspicion is that other strategy-ish games tend to be similar
20160609 07:33:27< TC01> having said that, where Wesnoth is certainly unique is in requiring the use of the GPL; I think it'd probably be a good thing if add-on content could at the very least be licensed permissively, which seems to be what was being discussed above (various CC licenses)
20160609 07:34:45< TC01> (just my $0.02 as a lurker/Wesnoth player/potential UMC developer)
20160609 07:41:55-!- Duthlet [~Duthlet@pD9FCBDCA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 07:51:12< loonycyborg> TC01: And how much reuse do civ4 mods do in practice?
20160609 07:52:45-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 07:55:20-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@x4e31083f.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 07:57:03-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD036012039192.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160609 08:08:28-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B06923D4911EA2918A39E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160609 08:24:56-!- esr [~esr@wesnoth/developer/esr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 08:28:14-!- esr [~esr@wesnoth/developer/esr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 08:33:31-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 08:37:46-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 08:42:56-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B0692F4001E609E69A861.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 08:48:39-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 08:54:06-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD036012048178.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 09:06:12-!- irker873 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 09:06:12< irker873> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master 101e5d36ef3c / SConstruct src/SConscript: scons: remove SDL_net dependency from unit tests https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/101e5d36ef3c799bf43668cdd901f2e4080914c3
20160609 09:07:14< shadowm> loonycyborg: You do realize that a crucial part of our infrastructure still requires SDL_net, right?
20160609 09:07:37< loonycyborg> campaignd?
20160609 09:07:45< shadowm> If we had a unit test for the SDL_net wrapper then we don't want to drop that test either.
20160609 09:07:45< loonycyborg> I was just about to ask you about it
20160609 09:08:45< loonycyborg> tests/test_network_worker.cpp
20160609 09:08:53< loonycyborg> that's the only source file I removed
20160609 09:09:18< loonycyborg> no idea what wrapper you're talking about
20160609 09:09:51< shadowm> ... The network_whatever.cpp.
20160609 09:10:22< zookeeper> no, i most certainly can't read german.
20160609 09:10:48< shadowm> Or .hpp in this case. I mean, come on, why do I need to be any more specific when it's pretty obvious that campaignd calls SDL_net only through our wrapper API, just like wesnothd did?
20160609 09:11:17< loonycyborg> campaignd won't remain sdl-net for long anyway
20160609 09:11:31< shadowm> That's news to me.
20160609 09:11:37< shadowm> In the meantime, keep it tested.
20160609 09:12:17< vultraz> What does the 'd' stand for
20160609 09:12:21< vultraz> I'm curious
20160609 09:12:22< shadowm> Oh and I forbid you from arbitrarily dropping functionality from campaignd if you are planning to give it the same treatment as wesnothd.
20160609 09:12:32< loonycyborg> daemon
20160609 09:12:47< loonycyborg> ok
20160609 09:13:03< loonycyborg> I don't think I'll have to
20160609 09:13:35< loonycyborg> and I didn't drop room support "arbitrarily"
20160609 09:14:07< shadowm> You did it because your refactoring didn't account for it IIRC.
20160609 09:14:29< loonycyborg> vultraz: daemons is how long running non-interactive processes are called in unices
20160609 09:15:49< loonycyborg> shadowm: I dropped them because I noticed they're not actually used in practice, due to being part of new lobby
20160609 09:16:16< vultraz> I'm still not sure if we need them
20160609 09:16:25< vultraz> Games like dota 2 have them but...
20160609 09:16:28< vultraz> practically
20160609 09:16:29< shadowm> Right, and this is knowing that there have been talks over the past few months about resurrecting that code.
20160609 09:16:31< vultraz> how useful are they?
20160609 09:16:38< loonycyborg> and it made it possible to convert to storing all players in single mult-index
20160609 09:16:47< loonycyborg> actually when I made that decision
20160609 09:16:58< loonycyborg> I thought that vultraz is starting from scratch
20160609 09:17:04< vultraz> loonycyborg: is it possible to bring more than one person into another conversation outside 'lobby'?
20160609 09:17:06< loonycyborg> rather than reusing mordante's code
20160609 09:17:20< shadowm> vultraz: That was the intention.
20160609 09:17:21< vultraz> loonycyborg: mordante's lobby code is a mess
20160609 09:17:22< vultraz> just for the record
20160609 09:17:45< loonycyborg> they work basically like irc rooms
20160609 09:17:53< loonycyborg> but when you enter a game
20160609 09:17:58< loonycyborg> you no longer are in room
20160609 09:18:11< loonycyborg> but it saves which rooms you were in before joining a game
20160609 09:18:15< loonycyborg> and restores them
20160609 09:18:20< vultraz> hm
20160609 09:18:22< loonycyborg> when you leave game
20160609 09:18:24< vultraz> why do you have to leave the rooms?
20160609 09:18:27< vultraz> just keep people in the rooms
20160609 09:18:44< loonycyborg> because in game there is no gui to show separate rooms
20160609 09:18:51< loonycyborg> I guess
20160609 09:19:13< vultraz> true
20160609 09:20:36< loonycyborg> I'm pretty sure I can implement multi-room support with multi-index implementation too
20160609 09:21:08< vultraz> I've been pondering our chat intrerface
20160609 09:21:37< vultraz> I feel it's not very optimal.
20160609 09:21:51< vultraz> For example, no way to chat to players outside the lobby or an mp game
20160609 09:22:19< shadowm> You can actually whisper to people in a game from the lobby and viceversa
20160609 09:22:33< vultraz> Yes
20160609 09:22:39< vultraz> But you cannot do that, in say, an sp game
20160609 09:22:49< shadowm> Why the hell would you do that.
20160609 09:23:00< shadowm> When you are in a single-player game you are not connected to any server.
20160609 09:23:16< vultraz> That's why it's not possible
20160609 09:23:25< shadowm> And why would _you_ want it to be possible?
20160609 09:24:20< vultraz> I think it would be good to allow more interaction between players throughout the game
20160609 09:24:40< zookeeper> oh dear.
20160609 09:25:16< shadowm> Okay, since you like using other games as reference: name games that allow you to chat to people on an MP/conversation server while playing solo.
20160609 09:25:38< vultraz> Dota 2
20160609 09:25:42< shadowm> Nope.
20160609 09:25:48< shadowm> Dota 2 is a multiplayer game by design.
20160609 09:27:02< loonycyborg> what if you're playing multi-player only campaign with all players controlled by you? :P
20160609 09:27:04< shadowm> (Unbelievable. I was just about to type "you can't say Dota 2 because Dota 2 is a multiplayer game".)
20160609 09:27:21< shadowm> loonycyborg: Then you are an ass for hogging up server space.
20160609 09:27:40< shadowm> Or maybe you want to interact with the observers, in which case you're not an ass, you're just weird.
20160609 09:28:41< vultraz> One thing I like about AA is it's game server model. You're always connected to a game server, whether the 'official' one or one running on your PC
20160609 09:28:54< vultraz> And AA does have SP modes
20160609 09:29:04< shadowm> Yeah I would certainly not want that in my Wesnoth SP campaigns.
20160609 09:29:16< vultraz> but since everyone's always on the game server, I'm guessing anyone could chat any time
20160609 09:29:19< shadowm> The least I have to interact with the Crazy MP People the better.
20160609 09:29:37< irker873> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master 550fa9086b74 / SConstruct src/SConscript: Revert "scons: remove SDL_net dependency from unit tests" https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/550fa9086b74edbe60154021cd4da975244b7cc4
20160609 09:30:31< loonycyborg> shadowm: anyway, do you know of any campaignd rewrite effort I should adopt? Or better change it myself like with wesnothd?
20160609 09:30:38< shadowm> And if the game had to do the annoying network roundtrip on recruit/move like it does right now, for every single move, in single-player, I would stop playing altogether since it'd be an unbearable experience with my potato Internet (which, I must remind you, is not a choice I made).
20160609 09:30:39< vultraz> AFAICT, Wesnoth only maintains a connection to the server as long as you're in MP
20160609 09:30:58< shadowm> Yes.
20160609 09:31:10< vultraz> shadowm: that's not how AA works
20160609 09:31:15-!- atarocch [~atarocch@natmobil.sfa.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 09:31:17< vultraz> (what you said)
20160609 09:31:48< vultraz> IIUC, the client is still responsible for running all your stuff.
20160609 09:32:06< shadowm> loonycyborg: I could point you to that thing mordante did with a GSoC student and then a GSoC student-turned-mentor with a newer student. But I actually completely ignore what went on in that branch since it was never properly coordinated with me in spite of my contributions to the add-ons client and server at the time.
20160609 09:32:44< shadowm> vultraz: Oh, so you're saying AA MP is even more cheatable than Wesnoth MP?
20160609 09:32:46< loonycyborg> I vaguely remember that effort
20160609 09:33:18< vultraz> shadowm: go ask sirp about it. He can explain it better than I can
20160609 09:34:16< loonycyborg> but it seemed kinda overengineered to me iirc
20160609 09:34:18< shadowm> mordante and the students did all that without any coordination with me or the rest of the wesnoth.org staff so I don't feel particularly inclined to consider it a reference for anything, especially since it must've had code-rotted extensively since then, and the second time around the student working on it disappeared mid-term IIRC.
20160609 09:34:59< shadowm> (And the fact that it took/was going to take more than a single GSoC term is also a massive red flag in my book.)
20160609 09:35:08< shadowm> (cf. whiteboard.)
20160609 09:35:20< shadowm> vultraz: Nah.
20160609 09:35:59< loonycyborg> but anyway, you planned to rename campaignd to umcd right?
20160609 09:36:11< shadowm> Eh yes, but mordante stole the name for that GSoC project.
20160609 09:36:18< loonycyborg> at least I remember you mentioning umcd a lot
20160609 09:36:29< shadowm> Okay, "borrowed without asking".
20160609 09:36:58< shadowm> So if I renamed it now I'd rename it something else to keep the bitter memories away.
20160609 09:37:21< vultraz> shadowm: he did say the model is very OOS-prood
20160609 09:37:22< shadowm> Or just keep calling it campaignd. Works for me, especially as long as it remains backwards-compatible.
20160609 09:37:22< vultraz> proof
20160609 09:37:29< loonycyborg> ok
20160609 09:38:35< vultraz> shadowm: it'd be the model we would adopt should we do Wesnoth 2: The Anura Redux anyway
20160609 09:38:44< vultraz> so
20160609 09:38:47< vultraz> yeah
20160609 09:38:53< shadowm> vultraz: OOS-proof tends to involve a centralized server doing all calculations.
20160609 09:39:08< shadowm> And... see the potato Internet argument above.
20160609 09:39:27< vultraz> Why don't you get a copy of AA and see how well it plays
20160609 09:39:36< vultraz> You can play against me because I suck. :P
20160609 09:39:38< shadowm> Because I tried AA ages ago and decided it's not for me.
20160609 09:40:22< shadowm> I found it all rather confusing and the gameplay unappealing. I'd rather play with my miniature pixel soldiers on my technicolor battlefield.
20160609 09:41:52< shadowm> Now, if the game runs a _local_ server on your machine internally, Minecraft-style, that's a whole different matter, but it defeats your whole "chat to the Crazy MP People while on SP" idea.
20160609 09:42:24< vultraz> I'll ask him how it works again..
20160609 09:42:38< shadowm> Unless said local server has the ability to interact with other servers, in which case I'd call it overengineering for a superfluous feature.
20160609 09:43:05< shadowm> (And an unexpected surprise for anyone expecting their SP game to not phone home.)
20160609 09:43:28< shadowm> (See also my two dozens or so rants about Windows 10.)
20160609 09:47:30< vultraz> in AA it seems that only by running a local server are there no network connections outside your machine
20160609 09:51:46< loonycyborg> It's done like that in starbound too
20160609 09:51:56< loonycyborg> that's the reason that game has no proper pause
20160609 09:52:31< loonycyborg> because even in single player server is involved, and you can't pause it
20160609 09:53:45< loonycyborg> it was a shitty early beta though
20160609 09:54:00< loonycyborg> I expect you can implement pause in client/server model too
20160609 09:54:07< loonycyborg> but it's an extra hoop nonetheless
20160609 09:54:12-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
20160609 09:54:43< shadowm> You... uh.
20160609 09:54:57< shadowm> This is a turn-based game. You can't really _not_ have pauses.
20160609 09:55:36< shadowm> No matter what, there will always be a period of time during a game where no players are issuing commands. :p
20160609 09:55:59< vultraz> He's talking about a literal Pause function
20160609 09:57:16< shadowm> You can pause the game client while executing a series of commands and then those commands are being queued up, surely.
20160609 10:01:46< loonycyborg> but starbound is a realtime platformer
20160609 10:02:00< loonycyborg> if you pause client, server will still go on
20160609 10:02:09< loonycyborg> so you can't pause
20160609 10:02:26< loonycyborg> unless you add freeze function to server too
20160609 10:03:43< loonycyborg> the point is there could be always unobvious ramifications of client-server model
20160609 10:09:15< shadowm> We can't pause in Wesnoth at the moment.
20160609 10:10:06< shadowm> But Wesnoth does not _need_ that because it can just queue up commands that aren't being processed immediately (e.g. because you have a dialog open) and execute them as soon as it gets the chance.
20160609 10:10:48< shadowm> It's not like in a real time game where you need all clients to be constantly aware of each other's latest state without any room for delays.
20160609 10:10:54< loonycyborg> yeah, that's one advantage of turn based model :P
20160609 10:21:48-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 10:26:12-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160609 10:27:11-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@d0017-2-88-172-31-68.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 10:28:50-!- hk238|2 [~kvirc@t224.ip7.netikka.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 10:39:09-!- hk238|2 [~kvirc@t224.ip7.netikka.fi] has quit [Quit: http://www.kvirc.net/ 4.9.1 Aria]
20160609 10:39:26-!- hk238 [~kvirc@t224.ip7.netikka.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 10:43:47-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20160609 10:44:18-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 10:50:18-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 11:00:41-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@d0017-2-88-172-31-68.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ChipmunkV]
20160609 11:08:20-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160609 11:14:29-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 11:15:09-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 11:25:00-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 11:25:14-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 11:27:17-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 11:28:41-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 11:29:44-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 11:30:15-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 11:47:25-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 12:10:06-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 12:14:15-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 12:41:29-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B0692F4001E609E69A861.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 12:45:55-!- horrowind [~Icedove@2a02:810a:83c0:1c18:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 12:46:09-!- horrowind [~Icedove@2a02:810a:83c0:1c18:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 12:46:55< loonycyborg> campaignd is using client wml. Would using simple_wml for it be acceptable too?
20160609 12:53:34-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368f97.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 12:54:33< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: hmm simple_wml is usualyl much harder to use than normal wml, so unless the perfromance gain is neeed i'd stick with client wml
20160609 12:55:08< loonycyborg> the reason is that I could reuse my wesnothd code
20160609 12:55:15< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: also note that simple_wml (unlike config )offers no fast swap method for child nodes which is sometimes annyoing
20160609 12:56:07< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: can't you make the wesnohd server coe use trmplate so that it works with both ´config versions
20160609 12:56:22< loonycyborg> I can
20160609 12:56:43< loonycyborg> but need to know if it's actually needed
20160609 12:57:19< loonycyborg> anyway, campaignd seems to follow a bit different protocol than wesnothd
20160609 12:58:10< gfgtdf> loonycyborg, shadowm: i personally woudl like to know what are the hardware limits of wesnothd server, for example whether it woudl benefit from making it more parellel, or whetehr ram usage is a major problem.
20160609 12:59:14< loonycyborg> total ram available there is ^G
20160609 12:59:16< loonycyborg> 6G
20160609 12:59:50< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: hmm and what does the 1.12 server use at peak ?
20160609 13:00:10< loonycyborg> hmm no idea
20160609 13:01:59< loonycyborg> it seems 2 cpus are allocated to wesnothd vm
20160609 13:04:01< loonycyborg> gfgtdf: according to proxmox stats wesnothd vm didn't use more than 4G for last year
20160609 13:04:42< loonycyborg> the peak was 3.6 or something
20160609 13:09:14< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: hm ok
20160609 13:17:48-!- edgrey [~edgrey@178.205.218.44] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 13:19:58-!- irker873 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout]
20160609 13:20:55-!- prkc [~prkc@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/prkc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 13:40:26-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 13:45:00-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 13:48:30-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B069214BCC5913F54EFCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 13:52:08< zookeeper> ehh. so it's not at all straightforward to give a singleunit an animation (let's say movement) that always overrides existing animations of that type, but only if the unit passes a filter? -.-
20160609 13:52:33< zookeeper> since animation [filter] "will only earn you one point for animation selection"
20160609 13:53:00< zookeeper> so in order to make sure you override existing animations you'll have to provide a high base_score, but at that point any further filtering becomes meaningless.
20160609 13:54:02< zookeeper> durr.
20160609 13:54:32< vultraz> our animation engine is so bare-bones
20160609 13:56:09< vultraz> it's sad
20160609 13:56:30< zookeeper> well it wasn't really designed with... well, wesnoth in mind. :p
20160609 13:56:52< vultraz> It wasn't designed with any advanced use in mind, probably
20160609 13:56:54< vultraz> honestly
20160609 13:56:58< vultraz> I complain about a lot of things
20160609 13:58:29< vultraz> but it's always so sad knowing wesnoth is stuck in the last decade
20160609 13:58:33< vultraz> in terms of functionality and polish
20160609 13:59:33< zookeeper> or completeness, while we're on the subject of animations :p
20160609 14:00:10< vultraz> yup
20160609 14:00:13< vultraz> our UI is dated
20160609 14:00:22< vultraz> our animations are incomplete
20160609 14:00:40< vultraz> we can't do anything even indie games do today
20160609 14:01:40-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 14:03:55< vultraz> and it's just sad
20160609 14:04:17< zookeeper> it most certainly is
20160609 14:04:41< vultraz> like, earlier I realized we don't even have the ability to include a popup notification in a release without hardcoding it in the C++
20160609 14:10:29< zookeeper> vultraz, so, if in lua i need to remove a certain kind of [object] from every unit (recall lists included), where would i find a good example for that?
20160609 14:12:08< vultraz> uhhh
20160609 14:12:10< vultraz> not sure
20160609 14:12:36< zookeeper> i mean it literally doesn't need to do anything more
20160609 14:13:45-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:14:20< zookeeper> i guess i need to combine the results of wesnoth.get_units and wesnoth.get_recall_units for starters...
20160609 14:18:29-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:20:05< zookeeper> i think i got it... maybe
20160609 14:21:46< Ravana_> I wrote mine based on https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Removing_Items
20160609 14:22:28< Ravana_> should be callable from lua too
20160609 14:22:35-!- edgrey [~edgrey@178.205.218.44] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160609 14:22:57-!- edgrey [~edgrey@178.205.218.44] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:23:31-!- edgrey [~edgrey@178.205.218.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 14:23:50-!- edgrey [~edgrey@178.205.218.44] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:25:33< zookeeper> test scenario has some lua stuff WRT transparent/ paths
20160609 14:28:45< gfgtdf> Ravana_: i wonder why that page is names emoving items, from tht title i'd guess it drecribes how to remove [item]s from the map.
20160609 14:30:07< Ravana_> because object is used to implement items on units
20160609 14:30:19< gfgtdf> zookeeper: if it was 1.13 we coudljust make a lua binding for the unit::expire_modifications function
20160609 14:30:51< gfgtdf> zookeeper: that basically removes all modifications/objects with the given duration?=
20160609 14:31:03< gfgtdf> duration=*
20160609 14:33:09-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 14:33:31< zookeeper> well, not really necessary for my sake. dunno if anyone else would find that useful.
20160609 14:40:30-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:40:45-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:45:03-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 14:48:00-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.]
20160609 14:48:37-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 15:18:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160609 15:30:22-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 15:39:28-!- edgrey [~edgrey@178.205.218.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 15:40:28-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:8d05:510b:40bc:4ccb] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 16:14:36-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 16:14:41-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 16:14:55-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 16:15:18-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B069214BCC5913F54EFCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 16:30:13< TC01> loonycyborg: a fair amount, in my experience, at least when it comes to 3D graphics (unit art, leader art) created speicifcally for Civ 4. of course, one other thing worth mentioning is that it's pretty common for people to fork Civ 4 mods (creating "modmods" and so on), and thus the art gets reused by default, which isn't really a thing with Wesnoth campaigns.
20160609 16:30:44< TC01> But certainly, whenever I tracked someone down and asked if I could reuse the unit or whatever they'd created for some other mod project, I was always told "you didn't have to ask, but go ahead!"
20160609 16:30:57 * TC01 shrugs
20160609 16:33:48< loonycyborg> I once paid a bit of attention to NWN modding scene. It had entire fan made expansion pack with reusable resources, which was used by many modules.
20160609 16:34:09< loonycyborg> I wonder how many games have fanprojects like that :P
20160609 16:36:33< vultraz> Neverwinter Knights?
20160609 16:37:26-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@x4e31083f.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 16:37:40< vultraz> loonycyborg: there are quite a few "resource packs" people have created for use in Skyrim.
20160609 16:37:51< vultraz> using assets that have been created or collected with permission
20160609 16:38:07< loonycyborg> neverwinder nights yes :P
20160609 16:38:14< loonycyborg> wow so many typos
20160609 16:38:20< vultraz> for example, a creator might do a bunch of custom textures/meshes/models and then release them as a pack
20160609 16:38:47< vultraz> but from my experience in Skyrim modding, people are very careful to make sure they have author's permission before using their work
20160609 16:38:54< vultraz> at least those mods hosted on the Skyrim Nexus
20160609 16:39:34< vultraz> Some authors (IIRC) explicitly state their work is not to be reused or reuploaded to other sites.
20160609 16:40:07< TC01> vultraz: well, the thing with Skyrim modding though, is that it's significantly more graphical (given that it's a 1st/3rd person 3D game), so the assets are a much more important part of a project
20160609 16:40:31< TC01> so it sort of makes sense to me people would feel stronger about owning their content there
20160609 16:40:45< vultraz> Good point
20160609 16:42:17< vultraz> But to be fair, the current debate here is centered around graphical assets
20160609 16:42:31< vultraz> (or  musical)
20160609 16:46:01-!- horrowind [~Icedove@2a02:810a:83c0:1c18:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has quit [Quit: horrowind]
20160609 16:47:05< TC01> sure, and I think it'd be a good thing to let graphics/music be licensed under things that aren't the GPL (the GPL isn't really even suited for art anyway, the FSF admits this and encourages the use of... one of the CCs, I think?)
20160609 16:48:15< TC01> I just feel that content creation for Civ and Wesnoth is more similar than content creation for Skyrim and Wesnoth, if you're looking at examples as how other communities work
20160609 16:48:18< TC01> but like I said, it's just one data point
20160609 16:50:00< zookeeper> for some reason 3d artists seem generally much more protective about their work
20160609 16:50:22< zookeeper> whereas if someone paints a tileset, they generally don't mind at all if it gets used wherever
20160609 16:51:29< TC01> yeah
20160609 16:52:13< vultraz> zookeeper: "some reason" :P
20160609 16:52:48< zookeeper> although i suppose it's really not a 3d/2d thing but more about whether the work is... uh, done with techniques that are traditionally thought of as more professional? like, pixel art always has this vibe of being retro and hobbyist (even if it's not) whereas digital painting and high-quality 3d tends to (even if it isn't)
20160609 16:53:13< zookeeper> ...tends to have a vibe of being professional and commercial
20160609 17:00:20< zookeeper> so, when people do one or the other kind of art, they likely tend to adopt the common attitudes in their respective scenes. just a guess!
20160609 17:09:14-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 17:09:19-!- prkc [~prkc@5400DB22.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 17:18:15-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B06928C486250C54197C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 17:22:08-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368f97.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 17:33:25-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 17:44:03-!- Greg-Bog_ [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 17:46:03-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160609 17:48:44-!- Duthlet [~Duthlet@pD9FCBDCA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20160609 17:50:47-!- Greg-Bog_ [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 17:50:55-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 17:57:28-!- Lohengramm [sid1929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oeatltkbtdamcszn] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160609 17:58:22< vultraz> zookeeper: 3D art is a hell of a lot more time-consuming than 2D painting. Pixel art is even less than that.
20160609 17:58:39< vultraz> And the skill bar is a lot higher
20160609 17:58:54-!- Lohengramm [sid1929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mraqpnbsluiqurhi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 17:59:41< zookeeper> too big a generalization for my taste.
20160609 18:00:08< vultraz> and yours is not?
20160609 18:00:26< zookeeper> yes
20160609 18:00:43-!- The_Unforgiven [~quassel@2601:40a:c101:5600:80b7:ef7f:c44a:299c] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:00:43-!- The_Unforgiven [~quassel@2601:40a:c101:5600:80b7:ef7f:c44a:299c] has quit [Changing host]
20160609 18:00:43-!- The_Unforgiven [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:00:54< vultraz> Yours is very general
20160609 18:01:05-!- nurupo [~nurupo.ga@unaffiliated/nurupo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160609 18:02:37< zookeeper> yes, but it was not a blanket statement. you know, those little words like "likely", "tends", "generally", "maybe" and so on make a difference :p
20160609 18:03:34-!- nurupo [~nurupo.ga@unaffiliated/nurupo] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:04:42-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160609 18:08:41-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 18:09:15-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@d0017-2-88-172-31-68.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:10:03-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:14:49-!- hk238 [~kvirc@t224.ip7.netikka.fi] has quit [Quit: http://www.kvirc.net/ 4.9.1 Aria]
20160609 18:15:05-!- The_Unforgiven [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 18:16:19-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:33:10-!- prkc_ [~prkc@46.166.188.238] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:34:57-!- Shiki [~Shiki@141.39.226.227] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 18:37:39-!- prkc [~prkc@5400DB22.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160609 18:57:36-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 18:57:50-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 19:01:06-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50.36.224.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 19:05:53-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 19:06:32-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160609 19:07:24-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 19:08:28-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160609 19:13:22-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F3B06928C486250C54197C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160609 19:14:06-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160609 19:17:05-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 19:41:33-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368f97.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 19:59:02-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 20:03:13-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160609 20:07:03-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 20:17:31-!- The_Unforgiven [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 20:18:17-!- deathisundead [~quassel@unaffiliated/the-unforgiven/x-8713611] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160609 20:19:44-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 20:28:56-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@d0017-2-88-172-31-68.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ChipmunkV]
20160609 20:34:40-!- Aginor_ [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 20:37:36-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20160609 20:38:00-!- Aginor_ is now known as Aginor
20160609 20:38:15-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160609 20:38:15-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 20:42:14-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 20:44:31-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 21:02:52-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@x4e31083f.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 21:33:24-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 21:42:10-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 21:44:54< shadowm> loonycyborg, gfgtdf: The big problem with the rewrite is that we don't know how well it scales with stable series-like activity, and won't know until *after* 1.14.0 unless someone makes the effort to remove the incompatible changes in a branch so that it can be tested as a drop-in replacement  for the 1.12 version.
20160609 21:45:30< loonycyborg> and how many people are on stable server anyway?
20160609 21:45:56-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 21:46:02< shadowm>  17:36:08      lobby> 20160609 21:36:08 Statistics: number_of_games = 30 number_of_users = 107 lobby_users = 22
20160609 21:46:15-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.]
20160609 21:46:21< shadowm> It goes higher during weekends.
20160609 21:46:33-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160609 21:46:35< loonycyborg> I doubt that it's possible fail scalability so hard that a hundred or even thousand of users would cause problem
20160609 21:46:57< loonycyborg> we're using C++ after all
20160609 21:47:00< shadowm> He said, after finding UB cases in the code.
20160609 21:47:09< loonycyborg> and have quite powerful server
20160609 21:47:28< loonycyborg> but anyway I see it as concern point too
20160609 21:47:28< shadowm> Have you run this through valgrind and compiler-based sanitizers yet, by the way?
20160609 21:47:47-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 21:48:05< loonycyborg> hmm not yet
20160609 21:48:11< shadowm> The server isn't any more powerful than my own desktop.
20160609 21:48:23< loonycyborg> which compiler-based sanitizers you mean?
20160609 21:48:48< shadowm> And throwing better hardware at your broken software (hello KDE) isn't good practice.
20160609 21:49:05< shadowm> LeakSanitizer, UBSanitizer, etc.
20160609 21:49:23< loonycyborg> maybe we could write a script to populate the server with a thousand of bots..
20160609 21:50:07< shadowm> I assume you've heard of them before at least.
20160609 21:51:25< loonycyborg> I only know about valgrind
20160609 21:51:33< shadowm> Blegh.
20160609 21:51:39< shadowm> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Instrumentation-Options.html <- -fsanitize options
20160609 21:52:58< loonycyborg> actually, gcc sanitizer is only known to me as the thing I had to disable to compile cross-gcc toolchain :P
20160609 21:53:51< loonycyborg> but I totally should have tried it on native toolchain
20160609 21:57:03-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 22:00:03-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160609 22:00:04-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160609 22:02:28< loonycyborg> will do it right now
20160609 22:07:10< Aginor> shadowm: we should be able to fake some games for load testing
20160609 22:07:22< Aginor> we should probably make a load-testing client anyway
20160609 22:08:14< Aginor> shadowm, loonycyborg: we should also be able to ask coverity to run a check of the code
20160609 22:08:22< Aginor> we might be very sad afterwards though
20160609 22:09:11-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-125-80.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 22:09:47-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@x4e31083f.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 22:10:58< loonycyborg> I think coverity already was used on our code
20160609 22:11:59< Aginor> it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it again
20160609 22:12:18< loonycyborg> indeed
20160609 22:13:17< loonycyborg> with -fsanitize=address I didn't find a crash during a simple test yet
20160609 22:19:50< loonycyborg> I tried to trigger it with this expression in a test program: const char* tst = std::string("foobar").c_str() + 3;
20160609 22:20:07< loonycyborg> and it failed to catch it
20160609 22:21:33< loonycyborg> so perhaps it wouldn't find the case when I passed result of c_str() to set_attr :P
20160609 22:23:03-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160609 22:23:23< celticminstrel> I feel like there was something I was supposed to do...
20160609 22:23:57< celticminstrel> ...besides updating wiki pages, that is.
20160609 22:26:30< shadowm> Aginor: Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder.
20160609 22:26:41< shadowm> AI0867: Make more Coverity admins.
20160609 22:27:34< shadowm> loonycyborg: It was last used over a year ago due to AI0867's absence, since he's the only one able to upload new builds right now.
20160609 22:28:30< shadowm> <loonycyborg> I tried to trigger it with this expression in a test program: const char* tst = std::string("foobar").c_str() + 3;
20160609 22:28:38< shadowm> loonycyborg: That's not a use after free unless you dereference the result.
20160609 22:28:52< loonycyborg> well, Ifed it to cout
20160609 22:29:00< loonycyborg> that should have triggered it
20160609 22:29:03< celticminstrel> "cout << tst" is valid.
20160609 22:29:09< celticminstrel> "cout <<*tst" is not.
20160609 22:29:13< celticminstrel> I think.
20160609 22:29:19< Aginor> AI0867: I'd like to be a coverity admin pelase
20160609 22:29:37< shadowm> The first should trigger the C-string ostream operator I believe.
20160609 22:29:49< celticminstrel> Oh, you're right.
20160609 22:30:00< celticminstrel> So I guess both are invalid then.
20160609 22:30:48< shadowm> Perhaps asan only works for heap allocations?
20160609 22:31:27< loonycyborg> perhaps it wasn't long enough
20160609 22:31:34< celticminstrel> Hmm, I would've thought that was a heap allocation...
20160609 22:31:36< loonycyborg> so compiler didn't bother to dealloc the string
20160609 22:31:52< loonycyborg> anyway
20160609 22:32:14< loonycyborg> I managed to make AddressSanitizer blow up on wesnothd
20160609 22:32:15< shadowm> Doesn't std::string have SSO?
20160609 22:32:28< loonycyborg> by rolling back my fix for send_history UB
20160609 22:32:37< celticminstrel> Maybe.
20160609 22:32:39< shadowm> In that case, if it's shorter than an implementation-defined limit, its contents will be stored in the stack.
20160609 22:32:45< celticminstrel> I dunno if the standard specifically requires it.
20160609 22:33:19< shadowm> No, but I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that libstdc++ moved to that from COW.
20160609 22:33:34< shadowm> (Which is what triggered the GCC 5 ABI mess.)
20160609 22:36:17< celticminstrel> I wonder if we should drop invalidate_on_minor_gamestate_change. (CC mattsc)
20160609 22:38:22< loonycyborg> hmm it even gave enough info to make figuring out the UB easier :P
20160609 22:38:41< loonycyborg> like it even gave traceback to place that freed that string
20160609 22:44:10-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-4-254-184.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160609 23:01:55< celticminstrel> What's "it"?
20160609 23:06:44< Aginor> celticminstrel: you need to use the "new" keyword to allocate on the heap
20160609 23:06:54< Aginor> I think :)
20160609 23:07:26< celticminstrel> Sort of.
20160609 23:07:44< Aginor> mind you, I'm diving in and out of the chat while doing other things
20160609 23:07:47< celticminstrel> My point was that std::string potentially allocates space on the heap to store the actual string.
20160609 23:07:56< celticminstrel> The std::string object itself is not on the heap, of course.
20160609 23:07:57< Aginor> so I tend to have a rather fragmented view
20160609 23:08:03< celticminstrel> I do that a lot.
20160609 23:08:19< celticminstrel> It's partly why I couldn't keep up with the conversation last night, I guess.
20160609 23:09:08< Aginor> I had similar issues
20160609 23:09:10< celticminstrel> Anyway, if you assume that std::string does place the string's contents on the heap, then what loonycyborg posted is indeed accessing an unallocated location in the heap.
20160609 23:09:21< Aginor> I promised myself to read the backlog, but I never got around to it
20160609 23:09:27< celticminstrel> Though as shadowm pointed out, that assumption may not always be truth in practice.
20160609 23:15:40-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160609 23:23:45< loonycyborg> celticminstrel:   I reproduced the UB and got it to fail with sanitizer's error rather than incorrect behavior
20160609 23:24:01< loonycyborg> wesnothd that is
20160609 23:27:16< loonycyborg> wesnothd compiled with -fsanitize=address and with debug symbols
20160609 23:28:47< loonycyborg> seems that info could be useful, but atm I don't know more ways to reproduce errors that I didn't fix
20160609 23:46:08-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160609 23:57:44-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368f97.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 47.0/20160604131506]]
20160609 23:59:37-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
--- Log closed Fri Jun 10 00:00:24 2016