--- Log opened Sun Jun 19 00:00:34 2016
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20160619 06:48:50< DeFender1031> shadowm, what do you mean by "dumber aspects" (bearing in mind that i'm only up to Over the Sands)? As for "making it decent" and "still a WIP in that regard", it seems really well polished already. I ask all of this because I'm working on my own campaign and wanted a gauge of what "reasonable" is for a well-made add-on campaign, which IFtU does seem to be, obvious own-worst-criticism aside.
20160619 06:49:50< shadowm> The current version on 1.12 is far more polished than what was previously already considered polished in previous stable series.
20160619 06:50:40< shadowm> Basically, the issue is that IftU is my first published campaign, and back then I simply had no idea what I was doing.
20160619 06:50:48< DeFender1031> fair enough.
20160619 06:51:12< DeFender1031> okay, so you had no idea what you were doing... so?
20160619 06:51:27< DeFender1031> is it not possible for a beginner to make a great add-on?
20160619 06:51:43< shadowm> It's possible, I'm sure.
20160619 06:51:43< DeFender1031> (and if you say no, i'm going to be very discouraged :P)
20160619 06:52:02< shadowm> But it requires some actual planning and skill which I simply didn' thave back then.
20160619 06:52:28< DeFender1031> planning and skill in what aspect? storytelling? game balance? coding?
20160619 06:52:32< DeFender1031> all of the above?
20160619 06:52:37< shadowm> All of them.
20160619 06:52:57< DeFender1031> hmm
20160619 06:53:04< shadowm> Although, to be fair with regards to coding, we didn't have the same tools at our disposal back then as we do now.
20160619 06:53:15< shadowm> We didn't have custom WML events or Lua and custom WML tags.
20160619 06:53:27< DeFender1031> wow
20160619 06:53:37< DeFender1031> used to be pretty bare-bones, huh?
20160619 06:54:02< shadowm> Unit filter used to be less powerful and conditional events more verbose since there wasn't a [filter_condition] tag, etc.
20160619 06:54:34< shadowm> All those little things add up and make for a very byzantine code-base that's prone to breakage with every minor change.
20160619 06:55:12< DeFender1031> okay, but even so, as long as the general outline for the story is more-or-less solid, the rest can be fixed, tweaks to dialogue, game balance changes, cleaner code... no?
20160619 06:55:34< DeFender1031> i mean, there are certain changes which will alter what existing save data ought to contain
20160619 06:55:44< DeFender1031> (like changing a unit type's stats)
20160619 06:56:22< DeFender1031> but even so, it can't be that bad.
20160619 06:56:25< DeFender1031> can it?
20160619 06:56:30< shadowm> The prose was really bad.
20160619 06:56:45< DeFender1031> well it isn't anymore...
20160619 06:57:05< shadowm> My knowledge of English simply wasn't up to the task back then, but I went and wrote what was considered an epic-length campaign anyway.
20160619 06:57:53< DeFender1031> ah. i take it then that you're not a native english speaker
20160619 06:58:02< shadowm> A few people tried to improve the prose on several occasions since then, but they somehow never really bothered to fix all the malapropisms and awkward syntax.
20160619 06:58:05< shadowm> Yes.
20160619 06:58:53< DeFender1031> interesting. i hadn't noticed any of the usual oddities of speech that non-native speakers tend to have either here or in the game.
20160619 06:59:03< DeFender1031> so i guess your english has improved a lot
20160619 06:59:17< shadowm> So in the end, after completing the sequel in 2013, I set to rewriting the campaign, keeping the elements that made it work, and replacing or improving the rest.
20160619 06:59:25< DeFender1031> gotcha
20160619 06:59:36< shadowm> Since nobody else really succeeded at that somehow.
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20160619 07:01:18< shadowm> That said, nowadays I have an ad-hoc team of prose reviewers to assist with cleanups and minor rewrites where needed prior to each release -- both for IftU and AtS.
20160619 07:01:37< DeFender1031> you really still need that?
20160619 07:01:45< shadowm> To some extent, yes.
20160619 07:01:54< DeFender1031> (though, i guess extra sets of eyes don't hurt for even the best wordsmiths)
20160619 07:02:35< DeFender1031> how long ago was the first version of IFtU?
20160619 07:02:42< shadowm> September 2007 I think.
20160619 07:03:20< DeFender1031> wow
20160619 07:03:51< shadowm> Yep, September 10th-ish 2007.
20160619 07:04:41< DeFender1031> basically, you're telling me that if I'm serious about making a campaign, it's gonna be a long haul.
20160619 07:04:55< shadowm> I don't remember when the first complete release was but it was between December 2007 and March 2008 I think.
20160619 07:04:59< shadowm> No, not necessarily.
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20160619 07:06:59< shadowm> If you just stumble into the campaign making business without much of a plan or notion of what makes a story appealing or a game entertaining or a program functional (and maintainable), yes, it will take longer than if you had prior experience on any of those areas.
20160619 07:07:21< shadowm> But some people learn faster than others.
20160619 07:07:44< shadowm> Especially people who don't do what I did (a mistake oft-repeated by content creators these days) and focus on quantity over quality.
20160619 07:08:24< DeFender1031> ah, so I have some experience with storytelling and wordsmithing, and I've been a coder for the better part of my life. Game balance is something i'm probably not yet so great at, but I think it'll be okay.
20160619 07:11:10< DeFender1031> Ah yes, absolutely quality. My campaign is probably going to end up being epic-length, but not because I decided "i want to make a 20-scenario campaign", but because the outline for my story calls for that many scenarios. I'm trying to make the scenarios fit the story i want to tell rather than the other way around.
20160619 07:12:43< DeFender1031> (On the other hand, I'm currently only 5 scenarios in and still haven't made a final decision on stats for some of the units and such...)
20160619 07:15:35< shadowm> Epic-length these days means around 200 scenarios, so you should be safe. :p
20160619 07:15:53< DeFender1031> oh...
20160619 07:16:24< shadowm> Probably a consequence of some technological break-through in the last 6 years that allows people to spend an absurd amount of time rapidly clicking through battefields full of units.
20160619 07:16:40< shadowm> Without neglecting their jobs, families, study, etc.
20160619 07:16:42< DeFender1031> I only saw one add on like that - Legend of the Invincibles
20160619 07:17:23< shadowm> Back in my days 30 scenarios was considered excessive.
20160619 07:17:34< DeFender1031> huh... I'm not sure about that. All of my friends so far to whom I've tried to introduce wesnoth "had to uninstall it" because it was too addictive.
20160619 07:18:08< DeFender1031> well... the ones who were interested at all anyway.
20160619 07:18:41< DeFender1031> It's either been "whatever, i'll look at it when I have time" or "this game is too good and it makes me neglect my duties"
20160619 07:18:45< DeFender1031> sigh...
20160619 07:19:13< DeFender1031> but anyway, i've only seen one 200 scenario add-on
20160619 07:19:32< DeFender1031> and i also wonder whether these super-long ones make the quantity over quality mistake
20160619 07:21:33< DeFender1031> Though I have no idea how long they've been in development or what percentage of the creator's time has been spent on them, so for all I know, they could be good. So far, the only add-ons i've played any of are IFtU and celticminstrel's Besieged Druids.
20160619 07:23:36< DeFender1031> I dunno, to me, wesnoth campaigns are all about a good story. If a campaign is just a couple of lines of intro per scenario and then grinding through map after map with no real sense of story progression, it's just not worth it for me, you know?
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20160619 07:24:59< shadowm> I've seen a lot of people who'd rather quickly skip through the text and jump straight into the mouse button-punishing action.
20160619 07:26:21< shadowm> Tastes do vary a lot in that regard, and it's impossible to please everyone.
20160619 07:29:04< DeFender1031> Is that so? I figured that the point of a game like wesnoth is the story
20160619 07:31:00< shadowm> I'm sure the crazy MP people aren't on the server to play story-based scenarios. :p
20160619 07:31:09< DeFender1031> good point
20160619 07:31:10< shadowm> At least not 75% of the time.
20160619 07:31:23< DeFender1031> i do suppose that's true
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20160619 07:32:43< DeFender1031> though i feel like playing against humans is different. Less predictable than AI enemies and the chat/taunting/occasional flamewar take the place of the story... :P
20160619 07:35:34< DeFender1031> 200 maps of "defeat the AI leaders" just seems boring to me
20160619 07:36:18< DeFender1031> (Unless there's a good story behind it and it switches up for a more interesting sort of battle every so often)
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20160619 07:43:16< DeFender1031> anyway, shadowm, back to the actual purpose of my asking stuff, so assuming it won't take me 9 years to complete, it's still likely to take 1 or more, and it's possible that a new version of wesnoth will be out in the interim. How does one balance developing with keeping up-to-date with the latest changes? Is there some kind of changelog specifically for content developers on what in the new version is NOT backwards compatible 
20160619 07:43:17< DeFender1031> without having to trudge through a whole bunch of "added feature that you're not using but won't hurt you"? Things like "this tag's attribute now defaults to false where it previously defaulted to true" or "thissound.ogg has been replaced with a more realistic version"?
20160619 07:45:27< shadowm> There is a forum topic nowadays I think, but back then I had to sift through changelogs to find out of incompatible changes, yes.
20160619 07:46:05< shadowm> But I was already in contact with the mainline devs so I could always pester them with my questions.
20160619 07:46:27< DeFender1031> Like i'm doing to you right now! :D
20160619 07:47:25< shadowm> When originally developing IftU I made sure to test new scenarios with the latest dev version at the time, upgrading and fixing things as needed.
20160619 07:47:47< DeFender1031> ah, that makes sense... i should probably install dev.
20160619 07:47:57< DeFender1031> i've been developing on 1.12
20160619 07:48:03< shadowm> Much later with AtS I took a more pragmatic approach though.
20160619 07:48:45< DeFender1031> what's the more pragmatic approach?
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20160619 07:49:37< shadowm> Because I was getting increasingly desperate to get it done, I stopped giving dev versions tier-1 support in AtS as soon as 1.10.0 came out.
20160619 07:50:20< shadowm> Instead I would develop and playtest on 1.10.x and only occasionally have a look at 1.11.x to future-proof code without actually testing it.
20160619 07:51:09< shadowm> That approach worked well for what I was trying to do, which was to complete the campaign without bumping into every roadblock the devs would throw at us.
20160619 07:55:25< DeFender1031> hmm
20160619 07:56:02< DeFender1031> so you think it makes MORE sense for me to just develop on 1.12 and then update for whatever changes are incompatible on 1.13 once i'm done?
20160619 07:56:52< shadowm> I tend to think that'd be the best option right now, since 1.13.x is undergoing some extensive engine changes right now and it's prone to regressions that go unfixed for months.
20160619 07:57:01< shadowm> (Because of its erratic release schedule.)
20160619 07:57:50< shadowm> (Unfixed in public releases, mind you. Fixes usually land much faster in the development repository, but so do new bugs.)
20160619 07:59:55< shadowm> There was a time when I'd have found the whole idea of embarking on a journey along with the devs (encountering and reporting bugs along the way) fun and enlightening, but as time went on my focus shifted towards producing content for its own sake rather than for Wesnoth's sake.
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20160619 08:01:01< shadowm> Or maybe becoming a mainline developer tainted my then-idealistic view of OSS development forever, I don't know.
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20160619 08:02:00< DeFender1031> hahahaha
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20160619 08:04:40< DeFender1031> on the one hand, it seems like it'd be harder to test new versions as they come out rather than fixing as one goes along, but then I realize that if i really want to keep my story available long-term, i'll have to update for whatever backwards-incompatible changes come along with 1.14, 1.15 etc. anyway, so it's probably pointless to try to straddle both 1.12 and 1.13 right now.
20160619 08:05:35< shadowm> Anyway, I'm off now. Have fun and good luck.
20160619 08:07:53< DeFender1031> thanks
20160619 08:08:08< DeFender1031> and thanks for all the help
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 20 00:00:05 2016