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20160711 16:29:59< DeFender1031> ah, celticminstrel, there you are.
20160711 16:30:10< DeFender1031> I was going to respond, but by the time I got back, you had left
20160711 16:30:58< DeFender1031> I was going to say that I agree with vultraz's approach. I don't believe you can truly understand how to use a system unless you understand the underlying ideas and how the system works.
20160711 16:32:57< DeFender1031> I see too many mistakes made by developers who think they know what they're doing, but don't actually understand the mechanisms they're using. (In general in the world, not in wesnoth dev)
20160711 16:34:51< DeFender1031> I have a friend with whom I debate this quite often actually. He says that a developer shouldn't need to know how a system works internally. He likes javascript because it doesn't make you think about that. On the other hand, the majority of webpages on the web these days end up leaking memory in most browsers because people don't understand how the garbage collector works.
20160711 16:38:01< celticminstrel> Ugh, web development is going in stupid directions, like requiring cookies for basic functionality.
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20160711 16:46:22< bumbadadabum> it's not REQUIRED usually
20160711 16:46:30< bumbadadabum> but it sure helps to know what you're really doing
20160711 16:47:44< bumbadadabum> It's impossible to write things for a specific system without knowing how it works
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20160711 17:04:25< zookeeper> on the other hand, if you really need to know how for example garbage collection on some system works, then that's part of the system and someone who doesn't understand it can't be said to know the system in the first place.
20160711 17:11:41< zookeeper> well, i suppose no one disagreed with that anyway.
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20160711 17:30:51< DeFender1031> zookeeper, that's my point. My friend would argue that if the garbage collector can leak memory unless the coder knows what he's doing, that it's the fault of the system and not of the coder using it, and that they should fix the system itself.
20160711 17:36:05< zookeeper> well, it depends, naturally.
20160711 17:47:46< vultraz> DeFender1031: that's like saying "you'll get into an accident if you don't know how to drive, therefor it's the fault of other cars and they should get rid of them" :P
20160711 17:48:52< vultraz> even if you were to fix the system you still need to understand it
20160711 17:49:33< Soliton> no, it's like saying if you don't know how an engine works you should still be allowed to drive, otherwise something is wrong with the design of the car.
20160711 17:50:13< vultraz> well THAT is obviously false
20160711 17:50:51< Soliton> you mean you should not be allowed to drive a car if you don't know how an engine works?
20160711 17:51:20< vultraz> no you should not be not be
20160711 17:52:20< Soliton> i'm confused, is that a yes or a no?
20160711 17:52:42< vultraz> You should be allowed to drive without knowing how an engine works.
20160711 17:53:09< vultraz> It's an inconsequential system to driving itself.
20160711 17:53:44< Soliton> if the car designer did a good job, yes.
20160711 17:54:04< vultraz> I admit a lot of what I explained about GUI2 might not have been relevant to the topic per se, but I figured it'd help to explain how the system worked instead of just 'how to do it'.
20160711 17:54:34< vultraz> One of the gaps I have in my knowledge of programming is I may know that if you do a, b happens, but not the underlying logic behind doing a over c.
20160711 17:54:45< Soliton> my point is just that you can't know "the whole system". it's good to know more about it certainly but you have to draw the line somewhere.
20160711 17:55:05< Soliton> or you'll never get anything done.
20160711 17:55:20< vultraz> right
20160711 17:55:53< vultraz> I didn't go into the internal workings of gui2, just the system design.
20160711 17:56:29< Soliton> (i was mostly responding to the web browser gc example.)
20160711 17:58:33< Soliton> (which admittedly is a good example for needing to know the system somewhat since you can't prevent circular references in a gc design i don't think and it's probably not that hard to create them.)
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20160711 18:21:32< DeFender1031> vultraz, naturally, I agree with you. My friend with whom I have this debate, does not.
20160711 18:22:24< DeFender1031> Soliton, I see it more as being a foolish idea to drive a car without knowing what kind of gas it needs or how to fill up a tank.
20160711 18:23:31< DeFender1031> vultraz, your point about "do A and B happens, but why do A rather than C which will do the same thing" is exactly my point about why it's important to understand the underlying system.
20160711 18:24:16< vultraz> tl'dr knowledge vs understanding
20160711 18:24:35< DeFender1031> Soliton, there actually IS an approach to GC that will detect and properly clean up circular references, but it's far more complicated and most browsers do not implement that way.
20160711 18:25:46< DeFender1031> oh, and celticminstrel, I agree with you that I shouldn't need a cookie to, for example, read a newspaper article. That said, it really had nothing to do with my point.
20160711 18:27:22< celticminstrel> No, it was just that your comment triggered me to think of something that annoys me.
20160711 18:27:30< celticminstrel> I'm aware it had nothing to do with your point.
20160711 18:27:50< celticminstrel> Some websites direct you to an error page if you have cookies disabled.
20160711 18:28:15< celticminstrel> Some don't function properly at all, often witholding the most important content.
20160711 18:29:24 * vultraz shrugs
20160711 18:30:26< Soliton> DeFender1031: should be fairly easy to see that that is the preferable design then. at least from a user's/developer's point of view.
20160711 18:31:33< Soliton> seems like a fairly good goal to me to try to design systems in a way so that you do not need to know much about them to use them.
20160711 18:36:34< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, that, and the fact that websites have now figured out how to detect adblock and block their content if you're blocking their ads.
20160711 18:36:58< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, oh, and all those annoying overlays that pop up demanding you subscribe when you just want to read the dang article
20160711 18:37:07< DeFender1031> and autoplaying videos...
20160711 18:37:14< DeFender1031> yeah, the web is crap these days.
20160711 18:37:15< celticminstrel> Yup.
20160711 18:37:28< celticminstrel> I've managed to lock out autoplaying videos, I think.
20160711 18:37:46< celticminstrel> 1. Set Firefox to not autoplay <video> or <audio> tags.
20160711 18:37:57< celticminstrel> 2. Set Firefox to ask before activating Flash.
20160711 18:37:57< DeFender1031> Soliton, the issue is that GC that can handle circular references is ITSELF more resource intensive
20160711 18:38:10< celticminstrel> I think #1 might be an advanced preference (in about:config), can't remember.
20160711 18:38:40< vultraz> I don't mind sites asking me to turn off adblock
20160711 18:38:51< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, I did a similar thing in chrome, though I still occasionally get sites that don't seem to respect the setting for some reason
20160711 18:39:24< DeFender1031> vultraz, i don't mind them asking, I mind them holding their content hostage if I don't.
20160711 18:39:34< vultraz> true
20160711 18:40:00< DeFender1031> it can be argued that if you want to see their content, you should support them by giving them ad revenue
20160711 18:40:07< celticminstrel> I tried turning off adblock on one site. I still didn't see any ads. Not sure if that's because I have another plugin bocking them or if it's because it just didn't have any at that moment.
20160711 18:40:07< zookeeper> DeFender1031, pinterest is the worst
20160711 18:40:20< DeFender1031> but the issue is that adblock does more than just block ads. It can help block malicious code as well.
20160711 18:40:44< DeFender1031> if it were just ads that i was worried about, i'd turn off adblock for those sites
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20160711 18:44:55< bumbadadabum> there's also anti anti adblock nowadyas
20160711 18:46:24< celticminstrel> So many antis.
20160711 18:52:18< DeFender1031> so vultraz, up for giving me another lesson? this time about the path to widget and id params for the set_dialog_whatever functions?
20160711 18:52:55< vultraz> DeFender1031: in a dota match, I'll explain after
20160711 18:54:07< DeFender1031> vultraz, ah, take your time.
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20160711 19:18:58< vultraz> DeFender1031: ok, what do you want to know
20160711 19:19:17< DeFender1031> how does the path thing work? it's not entirely clear to me
20160711 19:19:43< vultraz> in most cases, you just need the widget id
20160711 19:19:55< vultraz> you set that in the WML
20160711 19:20:01< vultraz> like [button] id = "foo"
20160711 19:20:10< vultraz> that's usually enough
20160711 19:20:30< DeFender1031> that i got
20160711 19:20:44< DeFender1031> when is it not enough?
20160711 19:20:55< vultraz> that works because the widget with that is is directly searchable within the dialog
20160711 19:21:00< vultraz> but say, you have a listbox
20160711 19:21:16< vultraz> you have a bunch of rows, with a bunch of widgets
20160711 19:21:31< vultraz> they'd shear the same id. How does the game know which one you're talking about?
20160711 19:21:39< vultraz> in that case, you'd specify the id of the listbox
20160711 19:21:43< DeFender1031> ah
20160711 19:21:45< DeFender1031> okay
20160711 19:21:46< vultraz> then the index of the row
20160711 19:21:50< vultraz> then the id of the widget
20160711 19:22:13< DeFender1031> so it'd be a series of pairs of "id,childnum" followed by the final id?
20160711 19:22:27< DeFender1031> (but only for cases where ids get duplicated, obvs)
20160711 19:22:34< vultraz> wesnoth.set_dialog_value(item.name, "details_pages", i, "details_name")
20160711 19:22:48< vultraz> first arg is the value you want for that widget
20160711 19:23:01< vultraz> second is the master widget id, then index, then subwidget id.
20160711 19:23:08< DeFender1031> how do i tell what "value" means in the context of a certain widget type?
20160711 19:23:23< DeFender1031> (separate question)
20160711 19:23:23< vultraz> you need to determine that yourself
20160711 19:23:52< vultraz> there's technically some internal stuff that pertains to that, but it's too complicated to go into.
20160711 19:23:57< DeFender1031> from what information? is that part of a definition, or the widget's wml, or just "try it and see what changes"?
20160711 19:24:04< vultraz> logically
20160711 19:24:23< vultraz> an image widget's value would be the path to the image
20160711 19:24:25< DeFender1031> meaning "it's obvious what 'value' means for most widgets"?
20160711 19:24:29< vultraz> a button would have its text changed
20160711 19:24:52< DeFender1031> it seems that for most, it's the "label" field
20160711 19:25:22< vultraz> for buttons, labels, and images, yes
20160711 19:25:32< DeFender1031> and for other stuff?
20160711 19:27:02< vultraz> um
20160711 19:27:09< vultraz> I'm not really sure, actually
20160711 19:27:20< vultraz> that function doesn't apply to all widgets, if i remember correctly..
20160711 19:28:09< DeFender1031> ah
20160711 19:28:24< DeFender1031> okay. was wondering if you had any other examples. If not, it's cool
20160711 19:30:04< vultraz> I think for something like a listbox it might set the active row
20160711 19:30:15< DeFender1031> ah, right
20160711 19:30:17< DeFender1031> of course
20160711 19:30:21< DeFender1031> that makes sense.
20160711 19:30:59< vultraz> can't remember exactly since it's been awhile since I did Lua GUI2 personally :P
20160711 19:32:50< vultraz> DeFender1031: yeah, from looking at the c++ source that seems to be the case
20160711 19:32:55< vultraz> for a multipage widget, it'd set the page
20160711 19:33:01< vultraz> for a text box, the text in the box
20160711 19:33:02< DeFender1031> another question about path to ensure i've got it: is set_dialog_value("somevalue", "a", 5, "b", 16, "c") legal? And if so, does it mean "the item with id 'c' inside of the 16th child of the item with id 'b' inside of the 5th child of the item with id 'a'"?
20160711 19:33:10< vultraz> progress bar, percentage
20160711 19:33:11< vultraz> etc
20160711 19:33:17< DeFender1031> got it
20160711 19:33:30< DeFender1031> basically, whatever "value" is obviously refering to
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20160711 19:33:49< vultraz> DeFender1031: I do not believe that is legal
20160711 19:34:28< vultraz> but I don't think I've tried
20160711 19:35:03< DeFender1031> "The last argument is the id of the widget. If it does not point to a unique widget in the dialog, some discriminating parents should be given on its left, making a path that is read from left to right by the engine."
20160711 19:35:07< DeFender1031> this is from the doc
20160711 19:35:26< DeFender1031> that'd seem to imply that more than one set of parentid->childnumber is allowed.
20160711 19:36:03< vultraz> I don't know how well GUI2 would handle recursive widgets like a listbox within a listbox
20160711 19:36:20< DeFender1031> either way, i think i'm correct in saying that set_dialog_value("somevalue", "a", 5, "b") will set the value of the widget with id "b" inside of the 5th child of "a"?
20160711 19:36:31< vultraz> I know it can handle recursive stacked_widget widgets, but that's in c++...
20160711 19:36:41< celticminstrel> That's not what recursion means at all.
20160711 19:36:50< vultraz> DeFender1031: that is correct
20160711 19:36:55< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i think he means "nested"
20160711 19:36:59< vultraz> er, yes
20160711 19:37:00< celticminstrel> Yes, he does.
20160711 19:37:01< vultraz> nested
20160711 19:37:03< vultraz> >_>
20160711 19:37:12< vultraz> apologies
20160711 19:37:38< DeFender1031> it's cool. *I* knew what you meant. celticminstrel just likes correcting people's misspeaks.
20160711 19:37:47< DeFender1031> or mistypes, in this case.
20160711 19:38:19< vultraz> DeFender1031: from looking at the C++ code again it seems set_dialog_value takes unlimited arguments, so what you say might actually work
20160711 19:38:26< vultraz>  * - Args 2..n: path of strings and integers.
20160711 19:38:29< vultraz> so...
20160711 19:38:42< vultraz> but I've never tried such a thing, so I cannot attest as to its success 
20160711 19:38:52< vultraz> s/as//
20160711 19:39:05< celticminstrel> That's a comment, not code.
20160711 19:39:19< celticminstrel> Though I would expect the code to back it up...
20160711 19:39:23< vultraz> . . .
20160711 19:39:34< DeFender1031> I repeat: celticminstrel just likes correcting people's misspeaks.
20160711 19:39:42< DeFender1031> ;P
20160711 19:39:50< vultraz> indeed
20160711 19:40:05< vultraz> anyway
20160711 19:40:08< DeFender1031> you guys are great.
20160711 19:40:17< DeFender1031> just thought i'd put that out there.
20160711 19:40:21< vultraz> your example above with a, 5, b is perfectly correct.
20160711 19:40:21< celticminstrel> Well, the thing here is that comments can be misleading - code might have been updated and comments left untouched.
20160711 19:40:46< vultraz> that's the most common usecase with nested widgets you'll need to address
20160711 19:40:54< vultraz> s/with/of
20160711 19:40:58 * vultraz cannot type this morning
20160711 19:41:02< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, if that's so, then whoever updated the code and not the comment should be shot.
20160711 19:41:17< celticminstrel> More or less.
20160711 19:41:39< vultraz> DeFender1031: have any other questions?
20160711 19:42:39< DeFender1031> vultraz, not at this time, i think. The "set_dialog_canvas" function looks interesting, but I'd imagine that that is another long journey.
20160711 19:42:47< vultraz> yes :P
20160711 19:42:58< vultraz> I honestly have never really used that.
20160711 19:43:01< vultraz> since it's complicated
20160711 19:43:26< DeFender1031> and probably unnecessary, as the widgets tend to define their own canvases, which are already pretty nice and don't really need messing with.
20160711 19:43:37< vultraz> yeah
20160711 19:43:40< vultraz> anyway, good luck
20160711 19:44:46< DeFender1031> the only reason i'd mess with it is if after i finish everything and I want to get really fancy and add some kind of interesting semitransparent overlay to the background (like a fancy image of a staff on my "change staff" dialog or something)
20160711 19:48:26< celticminstrel> The Lua API for dialogs is probably going to be changed drastically at some point.
20160711 19:48:48< celticminstrel> Though unless GUI2 itself is excised, the internals will be more or less the same...
20160711 19:50:30< DeFender1031> vultraz, it's interesting that there aren't functions to change other attributes of widgets. I'd have expected there to be a set_dialog_attribute() function where, say, set_dialog_attribute("label", "new value", "somewidget") would be identical to set_dialog_value("new value", "somewidget"). Obviously, this example is useless, but i'd expect to be able to use it to change other attributes as well, like sizes and layouts and such
20160711 19:50:56< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, no way to leave it backwards-compatible?
20160711 19:51:24< celticminstrel> No idea, but backwards-compatibility would be kept if possible, at least for one major release.
20160711 19:51:41< vultraz> DeFender1031: that's both a shortcoming of gui2 and the fact that the lua api doesn't fully reflect all the features the c++ side can do.
20160711 19:53:12< DeFender1031> :/
20160711 19:55:17< DeFender1031> vultraz, it's funny, wesnoth's engine looks so clean from the outside, and even when you start talking about WML, it's all nice and wrapped up in its own little package, but as you get closer to the core, you start to notice more mess. With Lua, you notice that there are missing features, wacky edge cases, and some complex APIs which should really be simpler to use, and then when you start to inquire into "why", it leads you into 
20160711 19:55:18< DeFender1031> the mess of C++ code that led to it all...
20160711 19:56:57< DeFender1031> Not that i'm in any way disparaging the development, mind you. Most projects are like that. My current task at my real job is implementing and transitioning the codebase to a framework to clean up the same kind of mess that comes from years of people working on a project without knowing the long-term needs.
20160711 19:57:57< DeFender1031> I feel like every project reaches a point where too many unanticipated needs crop up and get hacked onto a framework that wasn't designed for them.
20160711 19:58:18< DeFender1031> and GUI code such as this is complex in the best designed of frameworks.
20160711 19:58:42< DeFender1031> all the more so after years of unanticipated "improvements".
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20160711 20:06:10< DeFender1031> vultraz, as for nested stuff, i'd imagine that you'd need the multi-level syntax i mentioned above for, say, a listbox inside a multi-page
20160711 20:06:39< vultraz> I would think so
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 12 00:00:22 2016