--- Log opened Mon Aug 08 00:00:35 2016
20160808 00:01:00< vultraz> Aginor: if I'm understanding correctly, it's "there will be a sequel, better to focus on that" VS "game 1 will always be its own thing and should be improved as much as possible without consideration of game 2"?
20160808 00:01:32< celticminstrel> Oh. Apparently leader lock is ignored if you uncheck "Use map settings".
20160808 00:02:08< celticminstrel> That makes it useless for this. Hmm.
20160808 00:02:40< TC01> So, I asked the question because I'm not entirely sure what the goal of declaring something to be an official "sequel" would be for Wesnoth
20160808 00:02:55< vultraz> Aginor: I don't know how to reconcile those two, but for now at least, we don't have to. I've reiterated we need to focus on BfW for now.
20160808 00:03:31< vultraz> TC01: it's a chance to do stuff we can't do in BfW in a nicer framework.
20160808 00:04:02< celticminstrel> Honestly, the concept of a "sequel" doesn't fit Wesnoth very well at all.
20160808 00:04:03< Aginor> but why should we bother if the goal is to throw away the work?
20160808 00:04:26< celticminstrel> I wouldn't really call Civilization 4 a sequel of Civ3, etc...
20160808 00:05:02< Aginor> I can probably find better ways to spend my time than to put effort into a project that will be thrown away
20160808 00:05:23< Aginor> so if the goal is to discontinue BfW1, what's the point?
20160808 00:05:32< TC01> vultraz: fair enough. I was approaching it from the idea of- both would be FOSS games, there's no reason they can't coexist at the same time
20160808 00:05:35 * vultraz groans
20160808 00:05:50< Aginor> (I'm not saying I am, but I think this is a valid question)
20160808 00:06:36< vultraz> Aginor: I came to the conclusion awhile back that you're right in that *replacing* BfW isn't viable because it would throw out all the work of UMC authors and mainline developers.
20160808 00:07:10< vultraz> So even *IF* there's a fancier implementation of BfW in another engine, it would still just be a "Special Edition" or something.
20160808 00:08:17< vultraz> Aginor: what I'm trying to say is I don't know how to reconcile a AAA-esq view of a team working on games in a series for a distinct time VS continuous development by different teams on different games.
20160808 00:09:11< Aginor> why would we want to run BfW as an AAA studio?
20160808 00:09:44< vultraz> TC01: they would coexist.
20160808 00:11:19< shadowm> When you start dreaming up grandiose plans like this you're bound to lose focus and frustrate yourself considering unreachable goals instead of embracing and improving on what you have.
20160808 00:11:35< vultraz> Aginor: I don't know! 
20160808 00:12:14< vultraz> I'm trying to reconcile logical output of effort with Dave's OWN vaguely-defined plans and my own personal goals.
20160808 00:12:57< vultraz> He doesn't seem to commit to a long-term plan, sadly.
20160808 00:13:05< vultraz> It's all very vague.
20160808 00:13:39< Aginor> so this should not be treated as any form of strategy exposition?
20160808 00:13:39< vultraz> So lacking a long term goal, the *ONLY* thing we can focus on for now is making 1.14 as damn good as we can.
20160808 00:13:53< celticminstrel> I'm treating it as speculation.
20160808 00:14:18< vultraz> I know TWO things a facts:
20160808 00:14:45< vultraz> 1. Wesnoth: Genesis will be set in the same universe as BfW but have distinct gameplay.
20160808 00:14:57< celticminstrel> Okay, I'll use Dark Forecast as a test case...
20160808 00:15:02< vultraz> 2. Dave and Jet want to eventually make a clone of BfW, gameplay-wise, in Anura.
20160808 00:15:12< vultraz> Those are the facts as I have them.
20160808 00:15:17< celticminstrel> I should probably remove "Jet" from my highlights.
20160808 00:15:53< vultraz> In terms of long-term goals and how that fits into THIS project I cannot say because they plan nothing!
20160808 00:16:13< Aginor> why do their projects bear any impact on this project?
20160808 00:16:15< celticminstrel> They're welcome to do that, but it has nothing to do with this project.
20160808 00:17:34< vultraz> Aginor: I would like to hope two games that build upon the same universe would have some kind of connection.
20160808 00:18:02< vultraz> I think it'd be great to do some actual worldbuilding for a change.
20160808 00:18:12< celticminstrel> No need for new engines there.
20160808 00:18:30< vultraz> No
20160808 00:18:33< vultraz> That is true
20160808 00:19:10< vultraz> But it so happens that the engine of game 2 is a lot nicer to work with than the engine of game 1.
20160808 00:19:29< vultraz> Fact.
20160808 00:19:42< Aginor> vultraz: so?
20160808 00:19:57< vultraz> Aginor: I don't know!
20160808 00:20:59< vultraz> Logically, if we wanted to take the path of least effort for us, the developers, and not give a shit about the players, we would say FUCK IT and abandon BfW's engine in favor of greener pastures.
20160808 00:21:31< celticminstrel> I feel like your logic is a little warped there.
20160808 00:21:36< vultraz> But since we DO care about the players, one cannot do that.
20160808 00:22:07< vultraz> But then, do we expend more *total* effort trying to improve something fundamentally flawed?
20160808 00:22:26< celticminstrel> I think it's probably less effort to incrementally patch BfW than it is to abandon it in favour of "greener pastures".
20160808 00:22:34< vultraz> Can someone acknowledge this conundrum, please :|
20160808 00:24:39< vultraz> What we have right now is *four* different teams of people working on four different games with slight overlap and absolutely no long-term plan or goal.
20160808 00:25:13< celticminstrel> Except that I really only care about one of those games, so the other three can do whatever they want.
20160808 00:25:36< celticminstrel> If they want to duplicate effort, that's their problem.
20160808 00:25:54< vultraz> and I'm sure Aginor of all people can understand how such a thing could be a nightmare.
20160808 00:25:58< Aginor> vultraz: I don't see the problem, they have their hobby projects, we have ours
20160808 00:26:12< Aginor> what's the problem?
20160808 00:26:28< vultraz> Let's take Jet as an example
20160808 00:26:32< vultraz> He works on Frogatto
20160808 00:26:34< celticminstrel> Blah.
20160808 00:26:39< vultraz> But we also need him for art in BfW
20160808 00:26:44< vultraz> and he wants to work on W2
20160808 00:26:56< celticminstrel> We don't really need that much art from him, do we?
20160808 00:27:04< celticminstrel> I thought he only did sprite baseframes.
20160808 00:27:15< vultraz> celticminstrel: we need a metric fuckton of pixel art :|
20160808 00:27:24< celticminstrel> I'm aware of that.
20160808 00:27:31< celticminstrel> But not specifically from him, right?
20160808 00:27:34< vultraz> No
20160808 00:27:39< vultraz> LordBob could do it
20160808 00:27:47< vultraz> But we can't expect him to do that for free, can we?
20160808 00:27:54< celticminstrel> LordBob does most of the portraits, and I thought Sleepwalker was the main animator (though I haven't seen him post recently).
20160808 00:28:04< vultraz> Even if we paid him, he's already doing commissions for AA!
20160808 00:28:17< vultraz> And has been putting his commission for BfW aside.
20160808 00:28:23< vultraz> (the UtBS portraits)
20160808 00:28:27< celticminstrel> We can't expect him to do the art for free, but he might want to. I dunno.
20160808 00:28:43< vultraz> Even if we WANTED to commission pixel art from him, we need money for that.
20160808 00:28:59< vultraz> and because of certain issues, our revenue stream is currently dry.
20160808 00:29:34< vultraz> Our company (which may or may not deal with finances for any of the other three games here) has a nice reserve, but we don't want to exhaust it
20160808 00:30:02< celticminstrel> Is there a specific reason not to?
20160808 00:30:34< vultraz> I don't know. Dave handles the finances.
20160808 00:30:47< vultraz> Do you see now how this is a mess?
20160808 00:31:07< shadowm> When you put it like that, yes, it's a mess, and it has nothing to do with software or programming.
20160808 00:31:30< celticminstrel> Why is this shaman selected on scenario start, anyway?
20160808 00:31:57< vultraz> I'm trying to envision *some* sort of long-term goal that can reconcile these projects and their shared interests.
20160808 00:32:01< vultraz> But it's hard.
20160808 00:32:11< vultraz> Especially when no-one else seems to have one!
20160808 00:34:43< vultraz> I asked dave last year if setting up a game studio with anura as the flagship engine (and would probably include BfW too, even if it doesn't use anura), and all I got was an "oh we might be interested in doing something like that sometime"
20160808 00:35:00< vultraz> s/and all/ would be something in the cards, and all
20160808 00:36:13< vultraz> Now, after years of talking about a W2, the need of which was agreed upon by *multiple* devs *WITHIN* BfW, actual work on such a thing has begun
20160808 00:36:34< vultraz> And I realize that, contrary to my previous belief, it cannot *replace* BFW
20160808 00:36:50< vultraz> and its nature paints it as a sequel anyway.
20160808 00:37:05< vultraz> How does one reconcile this.
20160808 00:38:33< vultraz> According to Dave, a more general goal of W2 would be to create a platform for people to make their own games, kinda like BfW does with its UMC but I assume more advanced.
20160808 00:38:54< vultraz> How does this fit into BfW?
20160808 00:38:59< vultraz> How does this fit with the other games?
20160808 00:39:26< celticminstrel> I don't see why it has to fit in.
20160808 00:40:21< vultraz> That is why I've been envisioning BfW and W:G (W2) existing side-by-side as separate entities in a series!
20160808 00:40:27< vultraz> Yet you people seem to hate that idea.
20160808 00:43:10< vultraz> as I've said before, the only thing I can be certain of right now is we need to work as we have and make 1.14 as good as we can
20160808 00:43:16< vultraz> andget it out on Steam.
20160808 00:43:32< vultraz> So let's do that
20160808 00:43:42< celticminstrel> This is a huge mess... why is it so hard to make it not generate a new leader...
20160808 00:44:23< celticminstrel> flg_manager is pretty messy.
20160808 00:44:36< celticminstrel> What is flg_manager really for anyway? The name is totally meaningless.
20160808 00:44:54< vultraz> I think it's for controlling settings in mp?
20160808 00:44:55< shadowm> faction-leader-gender
20160808 00:45:06< celticminstrel> I see...
20160808 00:45:20< celticminstrel> Well, I suppose that makes sense once you know it... :/
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20160808 01:25:41< celticminstrel> Not sure if this is progress, but I'm now getting "unknown unit type: null".
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20160808 05:20:03< vultraz> celticminstrel: progress?
20160808 05:20:16< celticminstrel> Hmm?
20160808 05:20:41< vultraz> how's the [leader] thing going
20160808 05:21:12< celticminstrel> I got distracted not long after I last said something.
20160808 05:21:46< celticminstrel> At the moment, if you have a [leader] but no type, it complains of unknown unit type.
20160808 05:21:53< celticminstrel> So presumably it's expecting to find type.
20160808 05:22:55< vultraz> that doesn't make sense
20160808 05:23:01< celticminstrel> What doesn't?
20160808 05:23:10< vultraz> unless you mean it expects type= in [leader]?
20160808 05:23:23< celticminstrel> ...maybe? I didn't get to debugging or anything.
20160808 05:23:30< vultraz> that would make sense
20160808 05:23:32< celticminstrel> Most of the changes so far were in flg_manager. I probably need to change something elsewhere too.
20160808 05:23:50< celticminstrel> It would make sense if there was no type in [leader], but there is.
20160808 05:23:57< vultraz> flg_manager makes even less sense now that I know what it stands for
20160808 05:25:04< celticminstrel> It basically deals with faction/leader selection in MP setup. Or something.
20160808 05:37:20< celticminstrel> I should pause when the error dialog comes up. The stack frame should give an idea where the issue really lies...
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20160808 05:46:38< celticminstrel> Also, flg_manager currently isn't letting me select a leader, which I think it should.
20160808 05:47:03< celticminstrel> I get the feeling that this whole thing is super-messy.
20160808 05:47:19< vultraz> I'm surprised :P
20160808 05:47:21< vultraz> (not)
20160808 05:47:57< celticminstrel> So, if the [side] has type, that's the default leader. BUT, unless leader_lock is true, you can still select a different leader. Or. at least, that seems to be  how it's supposed to work.
20160808 05:48:11< celticminstrel> On another note, why do non-initial scenarios require leader information at all?
20160808 05:49:02< celticminstrel> ...BTW, is id= both a side key and a unit key? I seem to recall gfgtdf doing something related to that...
20160808 05:49:11< vultraz> uhh
20160808 05:49:15< vultraz> don't think so
20160808 05:49:24< vultraz> he did say something about that, though
20160808 05:49:37< celticminstrel> (save_id is set to id if not otherwise set, but... I thought I recalled something else besides that...)
20160808 05:50:14< celticminstrel> I guess I should quit Firefox. The debugger is taking forever to respond.
20160808 05:52:46< celticminstrel> Swap hell as usual, judging by Activity Monitor.
20160808 05:53:04< vultraz> do you have like
20160808 05:53:06< vultraz> 2 gb ram
20160808 05:53:16< celticminstrel> 5
20160808 05:54:06< celticminstrel> Oh, my check for whether to allow leader selection is very wrong. Hmm... what would be the proper conditions...
20160808 05:54:41< celticminstrel> Okay, so campaign_controller::play_game.
20160808 05:54:50< celticminstrel> ...why am I in campaign_controller when it's an MP scenario?
20160808 05:55:02< celticminstrel> Argh, it's an exception.
20160808 05:55:15< celticminstrel> That means I need to enable exception breakpoints to find the cause...
20160808 05:55:29< celticminstrel> There sure are a lot of exceptions that can occur here...
20160808 05:56:11< celticminstrel> Load game failure. Quit game. Game error. Incorrect map format. Mapgen error. Config error. WML error. (What the heck is the difference between the last two, anyway?)
20160808 05:56:51< celticminstrel> So...
20160808 05:57:13< celticminstrel> I guess if leader_lock is false you should always be allowed to select a leader...?
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20160808 06:04:26< celticminstrel> Uhh. Okay, so reinstating leader selection actually fixed the error, but the scenario instantly ended in victory.
20160808 06:09:21< celticminstrel> Okay, throw point located, now to look down the stack...
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20160808 06:19:40< celticminstrel> Why is the game injecting a [default_faction] tag...
20160808 06:19:59< celticminstrel> Also, it seems like it's destroying the contents of the [leader] tag somewhere. Hmm.
20160808 06:25:14 * celticminstrel probably did that.
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20160808 06:58:05< Aginor> hmm
20160808 06:58:28< Aginor> I had a look at the website and there's no real mention of wesnoth corporation as far as I can tell
20160808 06:58:32< Aginor> have I missed something?
20160808 07:01:19< vultraz> No
20160808 07:01:21< vultraz> You haven't
20160808 07:01:38< vultraz> It's not really publicly known.
20160808 07:02:01< vultraz> Not is it advertised.
20160808 07:02:04< vultraz> Nor*
20160808 07:02:19< Aginor> ok...
20160808 07:02:28< Aginor> why?
20160808 07:03:49< vultraz> Because no one ever felt the need or inclination to do so.
20160808 07:03:59< Aginor> ok
20160808 07:04:12< vultraz> And because the role it plays in the project is strictly behind-the-scenes, it doesn't have much bearing on players.
20160808 07:04:39< Aginor> compared to other FOSS projects it's a bit odd...
20160808 07:04:43< vultraz> Without it, for example, we wouldn't be able to go on Steam (at least no with my understanding)
20160808 07:05:56< vultraz> not*
20160808 07:06:17< Aginor> I guess it's the lack of non-profit status that I'm taking objection to
20160808 07:06:22< Aginor> and transparency ;)
20160808 07:07:23< vultraz> Iceiceice proposed we apply for 501c3 status in order to accept donations.
20160808 07:07:38< vultraz> But for some reason that wasn't viable or something...
20160808 07:08:18< Aginor> if we wanted to sort if out, I'm sure the EFF would be able to help
20160808 07:09:31< vultraz> EFF?
20160808 07:10:20< Aginor> https://www.eff.org/
20160808 07:11:46< vultraz> I feel slightly uncomfortable looking at that page.
20160808 07:12:12< Aginor> why?
20160808 07:12:21< Aginor> because of the current security focus?
20160808 07:13:08< vultraz> It seems a little ... hacktavist. Just the impression I get.
20160808 07:13:17< Aginor> https://opensource.org/ <-- might also be useful
20160808 07:13:34< Aginor> the eff is very not hacktivist
20160808 07:13:52< vultraz> I want nothing to do with the OSS initiative. :|
20160808 07:14:09< Aginor> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation#Activities
20160808 07:14:30< celticminstrel> EFF isn't like GNU, is it?
20160808 07:14:40< celticminstrel> Pretty sure they're quite different.
20160808 07:14:48< Aginor> they are very different
20160808 07:14:56< celticminstrel> GNU is annoying.
20160808 07:15:12< celticminstrel> I think I recall liking some aspect of EFF.
20160808 07:15:33< Aginor> EFF has done some great job and continues to go important things
20160808 07:15:58< vultraz> It sounds great and all but it still makes me vaguely uncomfortable.
20160808 07:16:05< vultraz> And I fail to see what it has to do with us.
20160808 07:17:14< vultraz> If you want information on wesnoth inc just ask dave.
20160808 07:17:27< vultraz> It's not as if we're hiding it.
20160808 07:17:45< Aginor> vultraz: no, you're just not mentioning it anywhere except on irc
20160808 07:17:55< celticminstrel> It's been mentioned on the forums.
20160808 07:18:02< vultraz> It has
20160808 07:18:20< Aginor> or a similar place where information is rather inaccessible ;)
20160808 07:18:37< vultraz> It really has no bearing on our users.
20160808 07:19:25< vultraz> It's not even a game studio
20160808 07:19:34< vultraz> Like ReLogic is for Terraria
20160808 07:20:23< Aginor> vultraz: I think you're missing my point, by quite a lot
20160808 07:20:52< Aginor> I'm wondering if I should bother trying to explain or just give up
20160808 07:21:21< vultraz> Is your point that it should be known that there's a company involved whether it does anything major or not?
20160808 07:22:01< vultraz> So new contributors can decide if they want to contribute to something that perhaps isn't FOSS in all aspects?
20160808 07:22:05< Aginor> I think it should be known that there is a company involved that's for-profit and own parts of the IP/trademarks
20160808 07:22:09< Aginor> yes
20160808 07:22:24< celticminstrel> Do they even own parts of the IP?
20160808 07:22:28< celticminstrel> Trademarks aside.
20160808 07:22:42< Aginor> I am a bit upset because I feel like I've been the subject of a bait-and-switch
20160808 07:22:52< Aginor> celticminstrel: I don't know and vultraz can't tell me
20160808 07:23:21< vultraz> As far as I know, no.
20160808 07:23:44< Aginor> but if they commission work and have not explicitly put in public domain or assigned it to a different entity, they do
20160808 07:24:19< celticminstrel> It seems to me that this "Wesnoth Inc" pretty much does nothing except for occasionally commissioning artwork to be released with the game (under GPL or CC or whatever).
20160808 07:24:33< vultraz> what celticminstrel said
20160808 07:24:55< vultraz> I don't know exactly what role it plays in commissions for other games like AA.
20160808 07:25:11< celticminstrel> And that's totally irrelevenat anyway, because those games are not Wesnoth.
20160808 07:25:18< celticminstrel> ^irrelevant.
20160808 07:25:19< vultraz> Yes.
20160808 07:26:58< celticminstrel> I don't think it needs to play any more role than it already does. I doubt its existence is necessary for being on Steam, either.
20160808 07:27:31< vultraz> I think it is.
20160808 07:27:37< celticminstrel> I doubt it.
20160808 07:27:54< Aginor> I'm rather sceptical that it's needed as well
20160808 07:27:57< vultraz> Becoming a Steamworks partner requires company and banking info.
20160808 07:28:02< celticminstrel> Any Steam account can submit a game on Greenlight.
20160808 07:28:47< vultraz> Yes
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20160808 07:29:05< vultraz> But this is actually submitting it on Steam.
20160808 07:29:10< celticminstrel> (Also what Aginor said.)
20160808 07:29:30< vultraz> However, I may have misunderstood the process.
20160808 07:29:42< vultraz> I handed it off to Dave once I found out it needed info I didn't have.
20160808 07:30:17< celticminstrel> Well, I can't claim to understand the process either, but I don't see why an individual couldn't become a Steamworks partner.
20160808 07:30:42< celticminstrel> Ah... so you're not really progressing on the Steam stuff now, huh... that's slightly disappointing...
20160808 07:31:10< vultraz> There's not much we can do, now.
20160808 07:31:38< vultraz> Once the relevant paperwork is filled out and we get our appID, it's up to us to get the product we want finished and ready to ship.
20160808 07:32:05< celticminstrel> MP setup is huge and complicated... :/
20160808 07:32:20< vultraz> Since that's not happening for awhile, there's no rush.
20160808 07:39:33< celticminstrel> I'm going to put this on hold for now...
20160808 07:41:38< celticminstrel> Do you know if there's a related bug report?
20160808 07:43:15< vultraz> What issue are you having?
20160808 07:43:29< celticminstrel> Well, feature request is probably more accurate.
20160808 07:43:35< celticminstrel> The [leader] thing.
20160808 07:43:37< vultraz> likely not
20160808 07:43:39< celticminstrel> And no_leader
20160808 07:46:04< zookeeper> i guess everyone stopped talking about W2 already, but it really doesn't directly impact wesnoth in any way because obviously there's no authority who dictates whether people should keep playing wesnoth or developing it.
20160808 07:49:03< vultraz> Aginor: anyway, I do assure you you haven't been baited into anything, and I hope you will continue to contribute.
20160808 07:49:06< vultraz> zookeeper: true
20160808 07:49:08< zookeeper> even in the completely hypothetical case where dave himself officially urged everyone to switch to working on W2 instead and leave wesnoth behind, why would anyone care?
20160808 07:54:08< shadowm> There are some people, devs and non-devs, who seem to think that anything Dave says or does still has some special bearing on the project these days, even though this hasn't been the case since he stopped contributing in 2009 (or arguably much earlier).
20160808 07:55:42< shadowm> I think people are right to be confused and more than a little bothered if the project administration tends to visibly favor outside views over the thoughts of the current development team.
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20160808 07:57:01< shadowm> And especially if this issue is intermingled at every turn with our financial backer's deplorable lack of transparency.
20160808 08:08:27 * zookeeper isn't having an awkward silence, but simply has nothing to add
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20160808 08:10:02< irker545> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master f4ac23a3c50d / / (4 files in 3 dirs): Allow [endlevel] to be used in victory or defeat events https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f4ac23a3c50ddbda79dd96ae2484775c55661335
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20160808 08:22:57< Aginor> vultraz: I am still bothered by the lack of transparency, governance and accountability and the fact that our setup seems to be so very different from most other large FOSS projects :)
20160808 08:23:42< Aginor> but I'm done kicking up a fuzz
20160808 08:26:14< vultraz> We are in many ways not the typical FOSS project 
20160808 08:26:32< vultraz> the iOS port and us now going on Steam are evidence enough.
20160808 08:27:16< Aginor> vultraz: no, not really. there's already plenty of FOSS software in appstores
20160808 08:28:42 * celmin|sleep agrees with Aginor on that one. Being on Steam or iOS App Store is not nontypical.
20160808 08:31:15< Aginor> the hurdles to pass to get into those walled gardens are reasonably small,  and so are the economical requirements
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20160808 15:26:18< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: are you wokring on the no_leader thing ?
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20160808 15:26:56< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: or one the side= thing ?
20160808 15:31:01< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: I was working on the no_leader thing.
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20160808 15:36:15< irker316> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 92cd7fee255a / src/ (display.cpp display.hpp synced_commands.cpp): show the debug command notification longer https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/92cd7fee255ac4bf0d08f24ab46ad1bdd5914898
20160808 15:36:15< irker316> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 7ab539fb3d5d / src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): give a warning on wrong side=  attributes. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7ab539fb3d5d85819177fad00a18378df65790a9
20160808 15:36:15< irker316> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 18d773619021 / src/game_events/handlers.cpp: less config copying when executing events. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/18d773619021a926c42416ebde0e952efc86c407
20160808 15:36:39< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: ok done the side= fixes^.
20160808 15:37:59< celticminstrel> Well, that's not the fix I was hoping for, but it'll work.
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20160808 18:14:35< Elvish_Hunter> Hi all. I'm finally back :)
20160808 18:15:06< Elvish_Hunter> Sorry for my sudden disappearance, but I was busy. Now I have two weeks of logs to catch up.
20160808 18:15:48< Elvish_Hunter> On the other hand, I managed to add a wmlxgettext tab to the Python tools GUI, and I'm going to commit it.
20160808 18:18:33< irker316> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master a534669682a2 / data/tools/GUI.pyw: wml tools GUI: reworked directory constants, and added a new one for wmlxgettext https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a534669682a263652b7a2986006323297980e52f
20160808 18:18:35< irker316> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master b17779f8a7b1 / data/tools/GUI.pyw: wml tools GUI: moved the add-ons directory detection code to a separate function https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b17779f8a7b126e2f3f88bef5c077092c993f0a7
20160808 18:18:37< irker316> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master 2a10f01faebf / data/tools/GUI.pyw: wml tools GUI: stop tooltips from reapparing when the associated widget is click https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/2a10f01faebf6f4bfb78988f6016ea2e0ba2846f
20160808 18:18:39< irker316> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master ff781c5f728d / data/tools/GUI.pyw: wml tools GUI: added a new compound widget for use by the wmlxgettext tab https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ff781c5f728d6c0155b056c830b4c59d01b81b4e
20160808 18:18:41< irker316> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master 50bb0b58098b / data/tools/GUI.pyw: wml tools GUI: added wmlxgettext tab https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/50bb0b58098b24da956321a417d745043dc3ed76
20160808 18:18:43< irker316> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master ca557c72211b / changelog: changelog entry https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ca557c72211bcfcaf9e652c38cb1949feb56b3d0
20160808 18:20:10< irker316> wesnoth: Wedge009 wesnoth:master 9efacedf5ccc / src/gui/dialogs/preferences_dialog.cpp: Allow hotkeys dialogue to be sorted by Hotkey column again. (Bug #24933) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/9efacedf5ccc004147ed175f5fe3ce7985e7aa95
20160808 18:20:12< irker316> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master b8064ed7f784 / src/gui/dialogs/preferences_dialog.cpp: Merge pull request #740 from Wedge009/bug_24933_fix https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b8064ed7f7843679f2d6910034f9c7ec241450e6
20160808 18:20:34< celticminstrel> So I mark it fixed but don't close it, right?
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20160808 19:28:15< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#10230 (master - b8064ed : Celtic Minstrel): The build has errored.
20160808 19:28:15< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/150715388
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20160808 20:09:26< celticminstrel> When sorting, a down arrow in the listbox header should mean ascending order, right?
20160808 20:11:15< fabi_> vultraz: You wanted to come back to me, remember? I have suspended the development until that issue is resolved.
20160808 20:13:45< irker316> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master 0215646f1ce4 / src/gui/dialogs/preferences_dialog.cpp: Preferences dialog: minor cleanup of duplicated code https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0215646f1ce426a11852f5d37c6ee64cdb0b2e56
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20160808 20:47:47< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#10231 (master - 0215646 : Celtic Minstrel): The build passed.
20160808 20:47:47< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/150745538
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20160808 20:56:12< iceiceice> vultraz, re: BfW vs Wesnoth2,
20160808 20:56:32< iceiceice> and specifically 
20160808 20:56:34< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:15< vultraz> celticminstrel: we need a metric fuckton of pixel art :|
20160808 20:56:36< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:24< celticminstrel> I'm aware of that.
20160808 20:56:38< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:31< celticminstrel> But not specifically from him, right?
20160808 20:56:42< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:34< vultraz> No
20160808 20:56:44< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:39< vultraz> LordBob could do it
20160808 20:56:46< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:47< vultraz> But we can't expect him to do that for free, can we?
20160808 20:56:48< iceiceice> 20160808 00:27:54< celticminstrel> LordBob does most of the portraits, and I thought Sleepwalker was the main animator (though I haven't seen him post recently).
20160808 20:56:51< iceiceice> 20160808 00:28:04< vultraz> Even if we paid him, he's already doing commissions for AA!
20160808 20:56:53< iceiceice> 20160808 00:28:17< vultraz> And has been putting his commission for BfW aside.
20160808 20:56:55< iceiceice> 20160808 00:28:23< vultraz> (the UtBS portraits)
20160808 20:56:57< iceiceice> 20160808 00:28:27< celticminstrel> We can't expect him to do the art for free, but he might want to. I dunno.
20160808 20:57:00< iceiceice> 20160808 00:28:43< vultraz> Even if we WANTED to commission pixel art from him, we need money for that.
20160808 20:57:03< iceiceice> 20160808 00:28:59< vultraz> and because of certain issues, our revenue stream is currently dry.
20160808 20:57:05< iceiceice> 20160808 00:29:34< vultraz> Our company (which may or may not deal with finances for any of the other three games here) has a nice reserve, but we don't want to exhaust it
20160808 20:57:08< iceiceice> did you ever consider that, if Jet hasn't really done any art in years, is working fulltime on frogatto, and plans to move on to Wesnoth2,
20160808 20:57:13< iceiceice> then maybe in regards to BfW Jet should become art director "emeritus" ?
20160808 20:57:35< iceiceice> and some community person who will work for free can become a new art director or something?
20160808 20:58:36< iceiceice> obviously its pretty crippling for the project if the art director won't make any art anymore, and the company that has commissioned art in the past isn't interested in doing so anymore
20160808 20:59:11< iceiceice> I'm not saying that's what should happen necessarily, but I'm asking if you seriously considered it
20160808 20:59:20< iceiceice> it sounds like you considered many such things recently
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20160808 21:07:47< zookeeper> yeah i think the only obstacle is that there just doesn't seem to be any active spriters around who could be promoted to director
20160808 21:08:07< vultraz> And no one who's as good as Jetrel or LordBob
20160808 21:08:18< vultraz> we're long past the era where we'll accept anything
20160808 21:09:18< zookeeper> well they don't need to be _as_ good, just good enough. we've had several of those in the past, but currently there doesn't seem to be anyone in particular that comes to mind.
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20160808 21:27:06< iceiceice> i mean, you could also try reaching out to sleepwalker or zerovirus and asking if they might be interested
20160808 21:27:27< iceiceice> i think the calculus of the whole project changes when major players actually leave
20160808 21:27:45< iceiceice> we already reached the point some time ago where, anyone who can operate a C++ compiler is eligible to be a programmer, no?
20160808 21:27:48< celticminstrel> The art director doesn't need to be a great artist. It's more important that they're good at judging the quality of art.
20160808 21:28:36< iceiceice> after a point if there's seriously not going to be any more art, i mean its hard to sustain a project at all
20160808 21:29:05< vultraz> jetrel still judges submissions
20160808 21:29:10< vultraz> I run art past him
20160808 21:29:21< celticminstrel> Well, theoretically there's a point where no more art is required. :P
20160808 21:29:32< vultraz> The problem is he isn't MAKING any new art.
20160808 21:29:35< celticminstrel> Though obviously that point has not yet been reached.
20160808 21:29:55< celticminstrel> The art director doesn't need to make art.
20160808 21:30:14< vultraz> If that's the case then Jetrel is perfectly fine being the art director
20160808 21:30:29< iceiceice> maybe there should be a "call for artists to help" ? similar to the programmers one?
20160808 21:30:45< vultraz> I'm sure people like sleepwalker or zerovirus would be totally willing to do it, if we paid them.
20160808 21:31:22< vultraz> But as I mentioned yesterday, it's a little bit of a gray area right now since last I checked, we don't have new cash flow.
20160808 21:31:40< iceiceice> vultraz, i'm not sure if i really believe that
20160808 21:31:52< iceiceice> wesnoth has been a top 100 game on iphone for years
20160808 21:32:05< iceiceice> how can the money just disappear
20160808 21:32:33< iceiceice> supposedly the whole iphone distirbution thing was supposed to fund more art for wesnoth
20160808 21:32:44< vultraz> iceiceice: simple :) the guy stopped sending the money and won't respond for comment
20160808 21:32:53< Aginor> lawyers
20160808 21:32:56< zookeeper> uh...
20160808 21:33:06< Aginor> send out the attack lawyers
20160808 21:33:09< vultraz> don't ask me who in their right mind made it so one guy controlled the whole iOS port.
20160808 21:33:25< iceiceice> vultraz, is that really the case?
20160808 21:33:34< zookeeper> it wouldn't hurt if the state of affairs was such that the development team actually knew about things like that
20160808 21:33:39< vultraz> Dave and co have already done what they can.
20160808 21:33:47< iceiceice> i dont believe that at all.
20160808 21:33:53< vultraz> iceiceice: ask dave.
20160808 21:34:03< iceiceice> how about if Dave comes here and says it to everyone
20160808 21:34:08< iceiceice> in the logged channel
20160808 21:34:15< vultraz> Because he never comes here anymore.
20160808 21:34:44< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure he doesn't have such a personal rule
20160808 21:34:51< iceiceice> he came to the forums the last time i complained about stuff like this
20160808 21:34:57< zookeeper> "i shall never go to #wesnoth-dev again"
20160808 21:35:05< iceiceice> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=44185
20160808 21:36:11< iceiceice> vultraz, it's really not that difficult to port an SDL game to iphone
20160808 21:36:15< iceiceice> wesnoth is super portable
20160808 21:36:35< iceiceice> if we actually got screwed by the iphone guy, we should make our own port, and tell apple we are the original developers, and his is illegitimate
20160808 21:36:57< vultraz> Yes, we want to make a new port
20160808 21:37:02< vultraz> But who to do it?
20160808 21:37:36< iceiceice> honestly i think aginor or celticminstrel could figure that out, it's much easier than the problems that they are working on.
20160808 21:37:37< vultraz> None of us here can, because you need both an iPhone (or perhaps iPad) and a Mac
20160808 21:37:43< iceiceice> but they need to know that they should they do that.
20160808 21:37:52< Aginor> iceiceice: there's a number of legal options available to screw the ios person back without even making our own port
20160808 21:38:06< vultraz> I don't control these operations
20160808 21:38:10< iceiceice> i haven't actually made an iphone app myself
20160808 21:38:14< vultraz> Any suggestions should be passed to Dave
20160808 21:38:14< iceiceice> but i did read quite a bit about it
20160808 21:38:28< Aginor> I've played with it in the past, but it'll probably be a bit of effort
20160808 21:38:40< iceiceice> i mean usually the issue is like OGL stuff
20160808 21:38:43< zookeeper> if we want our own port, it's conceivable that someone could be paid to do it in the form of them receiving a cut of the sales?
20160808 21:38:43< Aginor> I don't have the hardware needed though so it'd be a major expense for me to do it
20160808 21:38:44< iceiceice> but we dont have tha tproblem
20160808 21:38:56< vultraz> zookeeper: yes, but we have yet to find someone who's interested!
20160808 21:38:59< vultraz> Last I checked, that is
20160808 21:39:29< Aginor> set up a proper non-profit organisation that can collect the licensing revenues and put it back towards the project
20160808 21:39:31< zookeeper> maybe someone would be interested if there was money to be gained by it
20160808 21:39:44< Aginor> which is transparent in its dealings and finances
20160808 21:39:54< iceiceice> i dont think you necessarily need to pay osmeone to do it, they might be willing to do it for free
20160808 21:40:01< iceiceice> for instance htere's the guy who worked on a port to emscripten,
20160808 21:40:10< iceiceice> i think that's significantly harder than porting to iphone
20160808 21:40:25< iceiceice> if they are convinced it will "save wesnoth" somehow they might do it
20160808 21:40:33< iceiceice> alot of people seem motivated by that nowadays :)
20160808 21:40:50< vultraz> Aginor: I feel making the company 501c3 would close the door on ever compensating programmers for their work.
20160808 21:41:12< Aginor> vultraz: no
20160808 21:41:15< zookeeper> iceiceice, sure. but then again, if the person only keeps receiving the cut for as long as they maintain the port, it might help them to stick around long-term :p
20160808 21:41:27< vultraz> Plus it could potentially complicate things for any other projects the company is involved in.
20160808 21:41:27< iceiceice> thats true
20160808 21:41:29< Aginor> vultraz: read up on this
20160808 21:41:46< iceiceice> vultraz, there are lots of companies that arrange themselves as like a "public / private" partnership
20160808 21:41:58< iceiceice> where it incorporates once as a corporation and once as a 501c3
20160808 21:42:18< vultraz> I think wesnoth inc does stuff beyond BfW
20160808 21:42:20< iceiceice> and there are different arms of the company that basically cooperate without crossing the line
20160808 21:42:22< vultraz> such as AA
20160808 21:42:44< vultraz> iceiceice: well, I don't really know anything about how companies are set up.
20160808 21:42:45-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD036012020120.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160808 21:43:01< Aginor> 09:42 < vultraz> I think wesnoth inc does stuff beyond BfW
20160808 21:43:07< Aginor> that shouldn't impact us
20160808 21:43:10< vultraz> I'm not sure why everyone is suddenly acting as if I control everything.
20160808 21:43:41< zookeeper> because you're the only person involved with any of that stuff that actually directly interacts with wesnoth as a project? :p
20160808 21:44:30-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD036012021048.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20160808 21:45:02< zookeeper> s/that/who
20160808 21:45:07-!- Appleman1234_ is now known as Appleman1234
20160808 21:45:19< Aginor> vultraz: because you're the only one who *actually* knows about it
20160808 21:45:23< vultraz> And all my information comes from dave or Jetrel
20160808 21:46:23< vultraz> I can;t even tell you if turuk and noy are still technically part of the company.
20160808 21:46:53< vultraz> not that they ever did much, I don't think.
20160808 21:46:56< zookeeper> and this is largely the problem
20160808 21:47:34< vultraz> If I were actually part of the company I could tell you more.
20160808 21:47:53< Aginor> that's another aspect of the problem
20160808 21:47:57< Aginor> there's no transparency
20160808 21:48:07< Aginor> it's all rather shady ;)
20160808 21:48:32< vultraz> I know generally the amount in the money pool.
20160808 21:48:38< zookeeper> more like no one who's involved with wesnoth inc is actually involved in wesnoth regularly
20160808 21:48:53< vultraz> I know the iOS port was the primary source of revenue.
20160808 21:49:46< vultraz> There is no real defined use for the money, though.
20160808 21:50:46< vultraz> For example, and though I'm not certain about this, they could buy celticminstrel a new mac if he argued it would help him develop wesnoth better.
20160808 21:51:36< iceiceice> or buy an iphone for that matter :p
20160808 21:52:22< vultraz> well, if one of us were interested in doing the iOS port and needed hardware, I'm sure they could oblige.
20160808 21:52:45-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160808 21:53:51< vultraz> Even if the workings of the company were defined, there's so little to it at all that it wouldn't make much difference.
20160808 21:55:11< vultraz> As I've said, it basically exists to handle the money pool.
20160808 21:55:16< vultraz> And pay commissions.
20160808 21:55:27< Aginor> why would it not make a difference if there was a clear constitution and charter, line of accountability and transparency in decision making, budgeting and expenditure?
20160808 21:55:44< vultraz> Blah
20160808 21:55:47< vultraz> I meant transparent
20160808 21:56:05< vultraz> What you describe would be great
20160808 21:56:10< vultraz> It's also a lot of work.
20160808 21:56:45< iceiceice> vultraz, sometimes keeping secrets is more work than transparency
20160808 21:57:13< vultraz> It's existed as it has simply because no one felt the needed to do anything different.
20160808 21:57:33< vultraz> need*
20160808 21:57:43< vultraz> So, yes, it could be changed.
20160808 21:57:52< Aginor> vultraz: I've set up a couple of non-profits in new zealand, it's not a lot of work here
20160808 21:58:02< vultraz> And I feel like you're all looking at me right now to get this sorted out
20160808 21:58:42< Aginor> vultraz: because you have the only line of communication :)
20160808 21:58:50< vultraz> Not true
20160808 21:58:56< vultraz> Go join #frogatto and speak to dave
20160808 21:59:00< vultraz> he's right there
20160808 21:59:03< vultraz> well, away right now
20160808 21:59:06< vultraz> but still
20160808 22:00:10< vultraz> we don't meet in secret under the bridge at a quarter past 4 on the third full moon of the year when the sun crosses the equator and a bluejay sings thrice :|
20160808 22:00:30< Aginor> why can't he come here and explain the situation as iceiceice requested?
20160808 22:00:53< vultraz> I guess he never wants to.
20160808 22:02:03< iceiceice> vultraz, its also not like there's never been a secret meeting where Dave discusses the finances with a subset of the developers
20160808 22:02:44< vultraz> Certain things shouldn't be spread all over the place :)
20160808 22:02:49< vultraz> Like how much $$ we have.
20160808 22:03:50< vultraz> There also isn't much of an ability to restrict knowledge to the dev team.
20160808 22:04:25< Aginor> why is the financial report sensitive?
20160808 22:04:36< vultraz> I don;t know
20160808 22:04:49< vultraz> IIRC dave just asked that we don't go throwing the number around.
20160808 22:10:03< vultraz> If you guys want more transparency, there has to be a channel in which only developers or otherwise involved parties can be notified of certain information
20160808 22:10:25< vultraz> But the problem here is that a developer is basically anyone who comes in
20160808 22:10:32< vultraz> None of us are hired
20160808 22:10:41< vultraz> There's no barrier between "in" and "out"
20160808 22:10:43< shadowm> That's perpetuating the secret club, not opening things up.
20160808 22:11:37< vultraz> The alternative is just making everything public.
20160808 22:12:12< shadowm> The fact is that working on Wesnoth is also "too much work" (biggest understatement of the century) yet some people do. If they didn't, there'd be no Wesnoth and therefore no need for this discussion. So is it really too much to ask for Wesnoth Inc to get their act together?
20160808 22:13:13< vultraz> It isn't
20160808 22:14:08< vultraz> I'll try to organize something.
20160808 22:14:35< vultraz> But I have a lot to do
20160808 22:14:37< shadowm> I'd rather you not try, just do it.
20160808 22:14:46< shadowm> We've been in this situation since 2009.
20160808 22:15:03< vultraz> shadowm: you probably feel like John Boehner right now :|
20160808 22:15:09< shadowm> Who is that?
20160808 22:15:32< vultraz> Former US Speaker of the House who stepped down last year
20160808 22:15:40< iceiceice> vultraz, actually the reference i thought of was "yoda" :p
20160808 22:15:55< vultraz> And who saved himself having to deal with the mess that is election year.
20160808 22:16:19< shadowm> I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply.
20160808 22:17:00< vultraz> Not an implication, just a comparison.
20160808 22:18:14< iceiceice> i guess i will have to ask Dave about the Ios port guy
20160808 22:18:26< iceiceice> if the guy really just disappeared that's pretty incredible
20160808 22:18:41< shadowm> The iOS story isn't a fun one and honestly I'm surprised vultraz decided to mention it.
20160808 22:18:45< iceiceice> and if there wasn't really any follow up
20160808 22:19:08< vultraz> iceiceice: attempts were made to contact him
20160808 22:19:11< vultraz> obviously 
20160808 22:19:28< vultraz> we're not that lackadaisical 
20160808 22:19:40< shadowm> Since lawyers were involved I was under the impression that we weren't supposed to talk about it.
20160808 22:20:13< vultraz> I have revealed nothing specific.
20160808 22:20:22< vultraz> iOS guy makes port, iOS guy stops sending money.
20160808 22:20:31< zookeeper> lawyers were involved? well that's interesting.
20160808 22:20:33< shadowm> There's nothing more specific to it, really.
20160808 22:21:07< vultraz> I cannot recall of lawyers were indeed involved.
20160808 22:21:09< vultraz> if*
20160808 22:21:44< shadowm> The fact is that this was supposed to be resolved back in May and it's still a thing somehow. Go figure.
20160808 22:22:21< vultraz> Whose bright idea was it to make sure only one person controlled the port
20160808 22:22:27< vultraz> That's what I'd like to know
20160808 22:22:49< vultraz> At least for this Steam endeavor I've made sure multiple people have the account details.
20160808 22:23:08< iceiceice> well whose bright idea was it to make sure that only Dave knows the true finances of the project?
20160808 22:23:18< vultraz> In the event I become flattened by four-wheeled modes of transportation. 
20160808 22:23:18< iceiceice> i mean its all the same thing somehow
20160808 22:23:27< vultraz> iceiceice: noy used to be the CFO
20160808 22:23:29< shadowm> vultraz: No-one.
20160808 22:23:32< vultraz> I don't know if he still technically is
20160808 22:23:40< vultraz> but he's long gone
20160808 22:23:45< shadowm> I mean, for fuck's sake I'm certainly saying stuff now.
20160808 22:24:00< shadowm> I told Dave that noy told me back in the day that Wesnoth Inc was supposed to be in control of the account.
20160808 22:24:10< shadowm> That this was an arrangement that was reached with the dev.
20160808 22:24:36< shadowm> So, that is a thing, but apparently something went wrong in the meantime and no-one at Wesnoth Inc really bothered to assert that control preemptively.
20160808 22:25:25< shadowm> This isn't a black and white situation, but honestly I'm befuddled that Wesnoth Inc constantly becomes a source of drama like this.
20160808 22:25:41< shadowm> If Wesnoth Inc can't do its job in a clean and efficient fashion then maybe you people should look into replacing it.
20160808 22:26:33< shadowm> I can understand that our coders and artists and what have you do their stuff in their spare time for free, and so does Wesnoth Inc in theory, but money and actual responsibilities to a large group of people are involved in the latter's case, so what the hell?
20160808 22:28:11< shadowm> Also, noy is not "long gone" as in "gone". He still pops up on IRC from time to time. I feel it's important to clarify this since it's easy to interpret that expression in a myriad of inaccurate ways.
20160808 22:28:24< vultraz> I'm gonna be honest, I feel very much in no position to demand things of Dave.
20160808 22:28:38< shadowm> Hell, you could probably even send him an email and he'd respond.
20160808 22:29:01< vultraz> For the very simple reason that he's older and more experienced.
20160808 22:29:24< vultraz> Call it absurd or whatever.
20160808 22:30:45< Aginor> I'm sorry for stirring up all of the drama, but this seems to be a suboptimal situation
20160808 22:30:57< Aginor> but we could just ignore it and carry on
20160808 22:31:32< shadowm> The problem is that every once in a while someone (most likely a new dev in the future) will stir it up again.
20160808 22:31:51< vultraz> It is indeed suboptimal.
20160808 22:32:15< vultraz> Not just the state of wesnoth inc, but the lack of any long-term goals by anyone, especially those with fingers in multiple pies.
20160808 22:32:24< shadowm> If the information isn't right there in an accessible fashion and you have to actively ask people what it's all about and partake in this pseudosecret club business, the same scenario will repeat with different actors.
20160808 22:33:41< iceiceice> i mean i'll just say again what i said in the forum post,
20160808 22:33:56< iceiceice> it sucks if you contribute to a project for years for free, and then get the sense that the budget was cut at the top in secret or something
20160808 22:34:07< iceiceice> and also, if there were a "donate" button on wesnoth.org,
20160808 22:34:11< iceiceice> i think many people would click it
20160808 22:34:15< iceiceice> idk how many but
20160808 22:34:28< iceiceice> i dont really know why that button doesn't exist
20160808 22:34:40< vultraz> I don't know either
20160808 22:34:56< vultraz> Dave says we could make a Patreon.
20160808 22:35:05< vultraz> (and then promptly does nothing about it)
20160808 22:36:16< Aginor> that's revenue streams, my questions have mainly been around structure, accountability and constitutions
20160808 22:36:46< vultraz> None of which exists :)
20160808 22:37:03< shadowm> Also, regarding transparency: Wesnoth Inc recently filed a registration claim for the "Wesnoth" trademark. I have no idea if that's finished or whatever. But you can clearly see that this hasn't been mentioned anywhere at all and the implications are wholly unknown even to me.
20160808 22:37:30< vultraz> I confirmed with Dave that it indeed went through.
20160808 22:37:37< shadowm> I can't help but be a little wary after reading up on what Mozilla did to Debian a decade or so ago.
20160808 22:37:51< Aginor> that is indeed a source of concern
20160808 22:37:59< Aginor> maybe we should just break ties and rename
20160808 22:38:28< Aginor> (not a real suggestions)
20160808 22:53:21-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160808 22:55:20-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20160808 23:17:25< gfgtdf> Aginor: do you think https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?20388 migth be fixed with sdl2 ?
20160808 23:35:23-!- irker320 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160808 23:35:23< irker320> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master ff2a48aa095b / src/gui/dialogs/ (preferences_dialog.cpp preferences_dialog.hpp): tpreferences: use simpler method for initializing sorting options https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ff2a48aa095b2fbd563fcdc477b19268057c6f02
20160808 23:35:28< vultraz> celticminstrel: ^
20160808 23:35:57< vultraz> also swapped the order of the scope sorting so in-scope appeared before out-of-scope.
20160808 23:36:10< vultraz> pretty sure it was like that before
20160808 23:39:56 * celticminstrel returns from dentistry to a flood of finance-whatever comments.
20160808 23:40:25< Aginor> gfgtdf: yes
20160808 23:40:39< celticminstrel> I also half-expected people to be asking me "what the heck does template<template<class> class Dir>" mean when I pushed that commit.
20160808 23:40:43< Aginor> gfgtdf: alhough we should find someone to test it with
20160808 23:40:56< vultraz> celticminstrel: what *does* it do?
20160808 23:41:09< celticminstrel> Aw, you removed it.
20160808 23:41:29< vultraz> celticminstrel: I think using the init_sorting_option method is cleaner
20160808 23:41:58< celticminstrel> I don't think either is significantly cleaner.
20160808 23:42:08< vultraz> at the very least, easier to read
20160808 23:42:24< celticminstrel> I don't think template template parameters make things hard to read, either.
20160808 23:44:44< celticminstrel> To answer your question, it means you can pass a template to the tempate without specifying arguments. For example, std::greater is a template class and normally must be instantiated with arguments, eg std::greater<int>, but if a template declares a matching template parameter like I did, you get to pass it without arguments.
20160808 23:44:55< celticminstrel> I missed an L at least once in template...
20160808 23:46:03< vultraz> huh
20160808 23:46:06< vultraz> why is this not valid..
20160808 23:46:07< vultraz> , adv_preferences_cfg_({game_cfg.children("advanced_preference")})
20160808 23:46:09< vultraz> hmmm
20160808 23:46:25 * vultraz browses config class
20160808 23:46:43< celticminstrel> Why would that be valid?
20160808 23:46:52< celticminstrel> First of all, what does game_cfg.children return?
20160808 23:47:03< celticminstrel> const_child_itors or something?
20160808 23:48:02< gfgtdf> vultraz: i think that can be cimplified,
20160808 23:48:10< gfgtdf> vultraz: like
20160808 23:48:12< gfgtdf> template<typename Func>
20160808 23:48:14< gfgtdf> void register_sorting_memeber(int col, const Func& f)
20160808 23:48:15< gfgtdf> {
20160808 23:48:17< gfgtdf> 	set_column_order(0, { [f](int lhs, int rhs) {return f(lhs) < f(lhs); }, [f](int lhs, int rhs) { return f(lhs) < f(lhs); }});
20160808 23:48:19< gfgtdf> }
20160808 23:48:20< gfgtdf> vultraz: in the lostbox header
20160808 23:48:38< gfgtdf> s/set_column_order(0,/set_column_order(col, 
20160808 23:49:03< celticminstrel> That's no simpler than this.
20160808 23:49:26< vultraz> why doboth use <?
20160808 23:49:36< gfgtdf> vultraz: mistake, one shodul use >
20160808 23:49:53< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: it is, it alsoo allows to usre that function in all usecases, instead of requiring al usecases to wite teir own init_sorting_option
20160808 23:49:54< vultraz> hmmm
20160808 23:50:03< vultraz> I'll consider it
20160808 23:50:12< celticminstrel> I kinda prefer not having two lambdas in a single statement...
20160808 23:50:56< celticminstrel> Actually, maybe the whole idea of having two sort comparators should be abolished altogether.
20160808 23:51:27< celticminstrel> Instead just store a single key-function.
20160808 23:51:29< celticminstrel> ...though...
20160808 23:51:39< celticminstrel> I'm not sure if that can be done generically enough...
20160808 23:51:58< gfgtdf> So 
20160808 23:52:00< gfgtdf> init_sorting_option(order_funcs, [](const hotkey::hotkey_command* key) { return key->description.str(); });
20160808 23:52:01< gfgtdf> hotkey_list.set_column_order(0, order_funcs);
20160808 23:52:01< vultraz> celticminstrel: children returns a map of a string and a vector of config pointers
20160808 23:52:03< gfgtdf>  Woudl become something like 
20160808 23:52:03< vultraz> :|
20160808 23:52:04< gfgtdf> hotkey_list.register_sorting_memeber(0, [this](int index) { return visible_hotkeys_->description.str(); });
20160808 23:52:45< vultraz> it's also private
20160808 23:54:36< celticminstrel> What's private?
20160808 23:54:53< vultraz> children
20160808 23:55:06< celticminstrel> What does it return?
20160808 23:55:56< vultraz> uhhh..
20160808 23:56:29< vultraz> oh, derp
20160808 23:56:32< vultraz> it's not a function >_>
20160808 23:56:34 * vultraz kicks self
20160808 23:56:39< celticminstrel> Ah.
20160808 23:56:44< celticminstrel> You probably want child_range?
20160808 23:56:50< celticminstrel> That returns const_child_itors.
20160808 23:57:40< vultraz> I guess one cannot initialize a config vector with an initializer list
20160808 23:57:55< celticminstrel> I did try getting config to use initializer lists. It didn't work out.
20160808 23:58:02< vultraz> why not?
20160808 23:58:28< celticminstrel> Oh, a vector of configs should be fine though. But obviously you need to initialize that with a vector of configs, not a vector of config::const_child_itors.
20160808 23:58:35< celticminstrel> I don't remember why it didn't work out.
20160808 23:58:55< vultraz> doing something like adv_preferences_cfg_({game_cfg.children("advanced_preference")}) seems like it's something that SHOULD be possible
20160808 23:59:46< celticminstrel> Try adv_preferences_cfg_(game_cfg.child_range("advanced_preference").first, game_cfg.child_range("advanced_preference").second)
--- Log closed Tue Aug 09 00:00:02 2016