--- Log opened Thu Aug 04 00:00:16 2016
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20160804 09:07:12< Kwandulin> zookeeper: Are you still interested in helping me out with the map for OoA? I'm pretty much done with the update, there's only a few unit descriptions and code cleanups left to do
20160804 09:07:46< zookeeper> uh, sure
20160804 09:07:56< Kwandulin> In case you first want to see the campaign before investing your time, that's also okay
20160804 09:10:21< zookeeper> well, i'll have to investigate it before i can do anything, anyway...
20160804 09:11:11< Kwandulin> the map would look like that: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97230181/Wesnoth/southerndeserts.png
20160804 09:12:03< zookeeper> ok, so is making the map according to that plan the only thing needed?
20160804 09:12:27< Kwandulin> yes
20160804 09:12:56< zookeeper> all righty
20160804 09:12:58< Kwandulin> except maybe that the icon of th'arwya should be a single tower like the spellkeep icon
20160804 09:14:38< zookeeper> well, you can add to your plan the specific icons you want for each place
20160804 09:15:27< Kwandulin> can these files be found somewhere or do I have to cut them out from the other maps?
20160804 09:17:25< zookeeper> you can grab them from this if it's more convenient: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/maps/map_symbols.png
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20160804 09:18:07< Kwandulin> perfect, thanks
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20160804 09:23:24< zookeeper> first i have to properly draw those shorelines...
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20160804 09:28:26< Kwandulin_2> If it helps, you can leave out the isle in the south west and shift the northern border to the south so you can leave out that river there
20160804 09:29:38< zookeeper> nah, those aren't extra work
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20160804 09:52:56< hay207> Is someone interested in making tower defense map for 3 players?
20160804 09:53:30< hay207> And i do the underlying code
20160804 09:54:02< hay207> If so, chat with me in lobby
20160804 09:57:06< zookeeper> Kwandulin_2, more detailed rivers and coastlines: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/maps/far_south_masks.png anything in particular that might warrant changing/adding? at this point it just takes a few pencil strokes.
20160804 09:58:31< Kwandulin_2> zookeeper: looks amazing! there isn't anything that needs to be changed
20160804 10:00:38< zookeeper> okay. is that a good crop btw? i had to expand to north and south to keep the usual aspect ratio, but i could shift it a bit eastwards or something to keep the main locations a bit closer to center.
20160804 10:01:56< Kwandulin_2> that is a good idea
20160804 10:02:29< Kwandulin_2> the extension to the north and south also look fine to me
20160804 10:04:47< zookeeper> updated the image; how about now?
20160804 10:05:29< zookeeper> well, maybe it should be shifted just a little bit back westwards...
20160804 10:06:24< Kwandulin_2> is it possible to show the coast of the woods in the western border?
20160804 10:07:16< zookeeper> yeah i can move it just enough to make the coast clear
20160804 10:07:27< zookeeper> it's kind of weird how it's clipped off now
20160804 10:07:47< Kwandulin_2> also, at a further inspection, it might be a good idea to add some deserts east in east of the river. the desert/no desert border seems too sharp in my opinion
20160804 10:08:13< Kwandulin_2> at the place where the southern river meets the greater river
20160804 10:08:27< zookeeper> yeah, sure
20160804 10:08:50< zookeeper> or could populate that area with hills
20160804 10:09:20< Kwandulin_2> that sounds good, too
20160804 10:11:14< zookeeper> actually, to show the whole southwood west coast, i need to zoom out a little bit or shift even further west of your sketch
20160804 10:12:36< zookeeper> or i could just discreetly compress the whole layout horizontally a bit, to make it fit... :p
20160804 10:13:28< Kwandulin_2> the coast certainly isnt that important, i'd just like the map to show that there is no further land in the west
20160804 10:14:20< Kwandulin_2> other than that, i can also start with this map https://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=60787&mode=view the first scenarios and then switch to the far south map once the group is in the deserts
20160804 10:15:14< Kwandulin_2> and I'm not sure if compressing the map would look fine..
20160804 10:15:58< zookeeper> well, i'll see what i can do
20160804 10:33:18< vultraz> Sleepless Sea, eh?
20160804 10:33:20< vultraz> I like
20160804 10:33:57 * vultraz wishes we had more people to work on the Lore of wesnoth
20160804 10:38:51< zookeeper> it's been on the TSG map for quite a while now :P
20160804 10:40:50< vultraz> I haven't played TSG in years
20160804 10:41:00< vultraz> still wish we had more people to work on lore
20160804 10:41:09< vultraz> it's sad we have all these maps
20160804 10:41:17< vultraz> and no lore to go with them
20160804 10:42:21< zookeeper> well, you know what i think of that
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20160804 10:42:36< zookeeper> (or at least i think you would)
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20160804 13:12:55< vultraz> zookeeper: is that the thing where you think all lore should be left to umc people
20160804 13:14:48< zookeeper> more like the thing where i think (almost) all lore should originate from campaigns/scenarios (whether mainline or UMC).
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20160804 13:27:34< vultraz> that's kinda hard to do
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20160804 13:36:16< vultraz> UMC follows no strict canon
20160804 13:36:43< celticminstrel> UMC potentially follows canon.
20160804 13:36:49< celticminstrel> (Non-strict, of course.)
20160804 13:36:58< vultraz> and there are certain campaigns that should never be considered canon of anything
20160804 13:37:15< vultraz> and mainline doesn't have enough depth to explore the world
20160804 13:43:34< zookeeper> is this intended to be related to what i said?
20160804 13:44:02< vultraz> yes?
20160804 13:45:41< zookeeper> in that case i fail to see your point
20160804 13:46:38< vultraz> The point is that one cannot construct a canon from UMC
20160804 13:46:40< vultraz> too many cooks, and all that
20160804 13:46:53< vultraz> and mainline has barely developed it
20160804 13:47:13< vultraz> Look at the Elder Scrolls series in comparison
20160804 13:47:16< celticminstrel> I suspect you're wrong, but cannot prove it.
20160804 13:47:34< celticminstrel> If I'd played more campaigns, maybe I could (or would understand that I'm wrong).
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20160804 13:48:04< vultraz> A few campaigns develop it very well
20160804 13:48:05< zookeeper> who cares whether there's a lot of cooks or not? you just pick the best one.
20160804 13:48:22< zookeeper> no one said anything about letting all of them into the kitchen :p
20160804 13:48:29< celticminstrel> Hypothetically speaking, I would imagine that there are a subset of campaign devs who like to fit into the canon, meaning that their campaigns can be used as development.
20160804 13:48:34< vultraz> Well, if you're saying only accepted mainline campaigns become canon then yes, that is true
20160804 13:48:43< celticminstrel> (Possibly with some consistency tweaks here and there.)
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20160804 14:20:58< DeFender> I actually kind of agree with zookeeper here. The game is a tool to tell stories, and they should develop organically as things get added to the development of the game, not have some predefined set of rules that people must work within for no reason other than "to have it"
20160804 14:22:25< DeFender> (I also happen to hate that UtBS is canon, for several reasons, but the primary one is that I don't like the whole "and it was all for nothing" thing that it does to every other story before it.)
20160804 14:23:36< DeFender> (Not saying it wasn't an enjoyable story, and I very much like the UMC spinoffs of it that i've played so far. I just wish it weren't mainline canon so that it'd be "a pontential future" rather than the canonical future.)
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20160804 14:36:54< vultraz> DeFender: "all for nothing"?
20160804 14:36:56< vultraz> how is that so
20160804 14:38:25< DeFender> umm... the whole "they got arrogant and wiped themselves out by trying to raise a third sun and it fell on them" thing?
20160804 14:38:57< DeFender> it's like "none of it mattered. they annihilated themselves anyway."
20160804 14:39:19< vultraz> It's very common for fantasy settings to have apocalyptic events.
20160804 14:39:26< vultraz> Look at the Elder Scrolls
20160804 14:39:40< vultraz> series
20160804 14:41:19< DeFender> You sound like my doctor... just because it's common doesn't mean I want it there.
20160804 14:41:28< vultraz> plus, UtBS is the reason IftU and AtS exist
20160804 14:41:50< DeFender> Like I said, I like the spinoffs a lot.
20160804 14:41:57< vultraz> and there's nothing to say there isn't history after the Fall
20160804 14:42:07< vultraz> in fact, one campaign in particular comes to mind...
20160804 14:42:14< vultraz> sadly, the quality is absolute shit
20160804 14:42:23< vultraz> but they exist! :D
20160804 14:42:41< celticminstrel> [Aug 04@10:22:25am] DeFender: (I also happen to hate that UtBS is canon, for several reasons, but the primary one is that I don't like the whole "and it was all for nothing" thing that it does to every other story before it.)
20160804 14:42:43< DeFender> It just feels to me like... like a frustrated mom trying to keep her house clean. "I just saved this kingdom and now you come along and spill apocolyptic ketchup all over it?"
20160804 14:42:54< celticminstrel> I dislike the whole extra suns concept.
20160804 14:43:05< celticminstrel> Wesnoth is far from the only civilization on the planet.
20160804 14:43:19< vultraz> ^ This is why we need more lore!
20160804 14:43:21< vultraz> :D
20160804 14:43:29< celticminstrel> If they were doing something ridiculous like that, surely someone could have found out and stopped them (at least the third sun!).
20160804 14:43:31< DeFender> vultraz, how would more lore solve this?
20160804 14:43:40< vultraz> [01:43:28]	celticminstrel	If they were doing something ridiculous like that, surely someone could have found out and stopped them (at least the third sun!).
20160804 14:43:42< celticminstrel> This is an action that affects the entire planet after all. Everyone would notice it.
20160804 14:43:51< vultraz> thing is, we don't have the "someone"
20160804 14:44:23< vultraz> The Khalifate are the one foray we have into a civilization beyond Wesnoth.
20160804 14:44:31< vultraz> Look at the Elder Scrolls
20160804 14:44:33< vultraz> (again)
20160804 14:44:40< DeFender> vultraz, and there are no mainline campaigns involving them...
20160804 14:44:40< celticminstrel> Mind you, I do think it's cool to have a weird schedule like that.
20160804 14:45:04< celticminstrel> Maybe the explanation for it could be redesigned from scratch, I dunno.
20160804 14:45:09< celticminstrel> Asteroid impact? :P
20160804 14:45:52< vultraz> Tamriel is divided into Skyrim, Morrowind, Cyrodil, High Rock, Elsewyer, the Summerset Isles, Black Marsh, Valenwood, Hammerfell...
20160804 14:45:58< vultraz> We have "Wesnoth".
20160804 14:46:00< vultraz> and the "North".
20160804 14:46:26< vultraz> Even Game of Thrones has a more diverse geography 
20160804 14:47:12< DeFender> celticminstrel, actually, that could be explained by a campaign which actually involves the fall. Something like the rest of the world hears they're trying for YET ANOTHER sun after the second one they raised, and tries to stop them. It could even be that the attempt to stop it is what causes the devastation in the first place... like they stop it just too late and instead of not happening at all or happening properly, it... well...
20160804 14:47:14< DeFender>  does what we know it did.
20160804 14:47:29< vultraz> Westeros, Essos, beyond the Wall, I forgot what that's called;
20160804 14:47:38< celticminstrel> Maybe.
20160804 14:47:39< DeFender> vultraz, we have about as much as tolkien has.
20160804 14:47:45< vultraz> ahahahahahaha
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20160804 14:48:07< vultraz> DeFender: you have obviously never read the Silmarillion.
20160804 14:48:14< vultraz> (never have I, for that matter)
20160804 14:48:14< celticminstrel> BTW, does the Fall have an actual date in the timeline, or is it indefinitely in the future?
20160804 14:48:16< DeFender> celticminstrel, but again, just because a good story could be made doesn't mean that i like it as part of canon.
20160804 14:48:20< celticminstrel> vultraz: I have read it.
20160804 14:48:28< DeFender> vultraz, it's next on my list...
20160804 14:48:39< vultraz> but Tolkien has a *lot* of lore.
20160804 14:48:46< DeFender> i meant geography
20160804 14:49:00< vultraz> Fair enough
20160804 14:49:09< vultraz> but he offsets that with lore and other races and creatures
20160804 14:49:12< vultraz> We just have...
20160804 14:49:14< DeFender> true
20160804 14:49:16< vultraz> not enough
20160804 14:49:38< vultraz> shadowm did a better job of expanding our lore than any person I have seen
20160804 14:49:44< vultraz> sadly it's not "canon"
20160804 14:49:47< vultraz> however
20160804 14:49:56< celticminstrel> Maybe it could become canon.
20160804 14:50:01< vultraz> We're working on a sequel to Wesnoth that will focus on creation myths.
20160804 14:50:02< DeFender> and shadowm would have a heart attack if we tried to make it canon.
20160804 14:50:03< vultraz> So
20160804 14:50:03< celticminstrel> Depending what we're talking about. I dunno.
20160804 14:50:22< vultraz> celticminstrel: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Future_History
20160804 14:50:25< celticminstrel> I'd be dubious about considering anything from "Wesnoth 2" canon.
20160804 14:50:43< DeFender> a sequel meaning more stories or meaning a whole new game and engine?
20160804 14:50:55< vultraz> DeFender: both.
20160804 14:51:05< DeFender> :o
20160804 14:51:09< celticminstrel> Though I'll reserve final judgement until I actually see something substantive.
20160804 14:51:21< vultraz> tentative title is Wesnoth: Genesis 
20160804 14:51:26< celticminstrel> From the sounds of it, it's intended to be more HOMM-like.
20160804 14:51:41< celticminstrel> ...though not with the separate combat view I guess.
20160804 14:51:55< vultraz> HOMM?
20160804 14:51:59< celticminstrel> Maybe I should call it EoHS-like (Era of High Sorcery on the addon server).
20160804 14:52:07< celticminstrel> HOMM = Heroes of Might & Magic.
20160804 14:52:13< vultraz> as I thought
20160804 14:52:14< celticminstrel> (Particularly 3)
20160804 14:52:17< vultraz> what is that tho
20160804 14:52:32< celticminstrel> You haven't seen it?
20160804 14:52:34< vultraz> no
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20160804 14:52:54< vultraz> anyway BRB I have to install the Windows 10 Anniversary Update.
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20160804 14:53:10< celticminstrel> It's strategy-like. You control heroes on the map, and each hero leads an army. When you encounter an enemy hero, you enter a separate combat mode.
20160804 14:53:21< DeFender> vultraz, just promise me that when wesnoth is offered a movie deal you won't let them try to shove the whole story into two hours.
20160804 14:53:25< DeFender> :P
20160804 14:53:30< DeFender> ack
20160804 14:53:34< celticminstrel> You also have castles where you can build things and train units, and you can capture enemy castles and gain their units.
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20160804 14:54:13< vultraz_iOS> Oh wait, I have a tablet
20160804 14:54:14< vultraz_iOS> Durr
20160804 14:54:16< celticminstrel> The part I was considering HOMM-like from what you described of "Wesnoth 2" was spells.
20160804 14:54:27< celticminstrel> Oh, you missed everything I said huh.
20160804 14:55:01< celticminstrel> Anyway each hero also has a spellbook, and during combat they can cast them.
20160804 14:55:39< vultraz_iOS> Yeah that sounds like wesnoth 2
20160804 14:56:07< celticminstrel> Well, it's not necessarily alike in other ways, but that one detail struck me as similar.
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 05 00:00:58 2016