--- Log opened Mon Aug 08 00:00:05 2016
--- Day changed Mon Aug 08 2016
20160808 00:00:05< celticminstrel> Why would you want it to not be removed if it doesn't need to trigger a second time?
20160808 00:00:49< hay207> good question :)
20160808 00:03:18< hay207> for example, in placing units on map
20160808 00:04:16< hay207> to label upcoming waves
20160808 00:04:59< celticminstrel> I fail to see how that answers the question.
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20160808 00:05:59< hay207> the target macro i posted above, i placed the calling macros inside an event
20160808 00:07:15< hay207> please tell me if my term usage is wrong
20160808 00:07:21< hay207> :)
20160808 00:10:37< celticminstrel> I think it must be, because I don't understand what you said.
20160808 00:11:24< celticminstrel> Your original question is meaningless. Once an event is triggered, it can be removed if you don't need it to trigger again. There's no meaning in keeping events that will never trigger again.
20160808 00:11:41< celticminstrel> Actually, it would be impossible to do so, because keeping them would mean they would trigger again.
20160808 00:12:08< celticminstrel> Unless it's an event that is only fired once, such as "turn 1".
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20160808 05:58:26< zachquest> hey ther
20160808 05:58:39< celticminstrel> 'lo
20160808 05:59:09< zachquest> Just downloaded the game. Looks like the community is small but very active. 
20160808 05:59:14< zachquest> It's exciting.
20160808 06:02:10< celticminstrel> Ooh, a newcomer. Cool.
20160808 06:02:55< hay207> Good morning
20160808 06:04:26< zachquest> Indeed! I'm a fresh face lol.
20160808 06:04:38< zachquest> And good morning to you @hay207
20160808 06:09:22< hay207> Let's start
20160808 06:10:48< hay207> I want to improve AI's pathway finding capabilities in my map,
20160808 06:10:54< hay207>  i tried goto, and target location.
20160808 06:11:33< hay207> target location 's better, but i want something more better
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20160808 06:12:09< celticminstrel> Did you try target location with a [stage] like I mentioned before?
20160808 06:13:03< hay207> How to do so, 
20160808 06:13:20< celticminstrel> I explained it earlier, but I guess you forgot.
20160808 06:13:38< celticminstrel> [stage[ is, like [goal], something you can put in [side][ai].
20160808 06:13:46< celticminstrel> ^[stage]
20160808 06:14:02< hay207> Ok
20160808 06:15:15< celticminstrel> If you put a stage with name=ai_default_rca::candidate_action_evaluation loop and {AI_CA_MOVE_TO_TARGETS}, then the AI won't try to do anything other than move towards any targets set by [goal].
20160808 06:17:48< hay207> i 'm reading more info about stage tag now
20160808 06:38:47< hay207> I pasted code here written under [side] [ai] tags , 
20160808 06:38:50< hay207> http://pastebin.com/FwiEfZ52
20160808 06:41:28< hay207> Something wrong with code, 
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20160808 06:55:37< hay207> brb
20160808 07:05:47< hay207> i want to re-evaluate the pathway during start of every ai turn,, cause i change/block this pathway during my turn .
20160808 07:13:47< celticminstrel> Pretty sure there's no way to do that.
20160808 07:15:34< hay207> i thought this is done as default
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20160808 08:11:41< hay207> AI gets to the blocked pathway and just waits there,
20160808 08:12:08< hay207> if someone is interested to see in game, i can show
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20160808 08:47:09< DeFender1031> hay207, wait a minute, you're saying you want them to find a way around if the pathway is blocked?
20160808 08:48:46< hay207> the short pathway 's blocked
20160808 08:53:00< DeFender1031> that didn't answer my question
20160808 08:53:08< DeFender1031> what behavior are you looking for?
20160808 08:53:26< hay207> i blocked it in-game by placing units on this pathway during my turn
20160808 08:53:40< DeFender1031> if the pathway is blocked, do you want the AI units to go around a longer way, or still try to go toward the blocked pathway?
20160808 08:54:07< hay207> go around a longer way
20160808 08:54:19< DeFender1031> so then goto should do what you need. Last night it sounded like you wanted them to continue toward the blocked pathway.
20160808 08:56:13< hay207> i tried goto but not all AI units take the longer pathway, 
20160808 08:56:20< hay207> if any :)
20160808 08:57:11< hay207> i 'm experimenting using bats wave, 
20160808 09:10:25< DeFender1031> what do you mean?
20160808 09:10:36< DeFender1031> what happens when you use goto and the path is blocked?
20160808 09:11:17< DeFender1031> (this is what I mean by asking specific questions, rather than just vaguely saying "it doesn't work the way I want". You need to be clear about A: what you want and B: how what you're seeing differs.)
20160808 09:17:19< hay207> Ok, i said what i want, = make ai take the long pathway
20160808 09:18:03< hay207> what i see, AI gets to the short pathway and stays there
20160808 09:18:37< hay207> i 'll try to edit map, for more clear short and long pathways
20160808 09:32:34< hay207> i see this error in console
20160808 09:32:56< hay207> error ai/actions: Error #2007 (E_NOT_REACHED_DESTINATION) in full move by side 4 from location 20,7 to location 17,14
20160808 09:33:01< hay207> warning ai/ca/testing_move_to_targets: unexpected outcome of move
20160808 09:38:13< hay207> But i doubt this error is important / related to the case
20160808 09:42:05< hay207> idk, but AI might be expecting my towers to move ?
20160808 09:42:36< hay207> the towers are normal units with 0 moves
20160808 09:45:15< hay207> I guess that's a reseanable explanation to the problem
20160808 09:48:24< hay207> AI gets to the shorter pathway, and stays there, expecting my units to move
20160808 09:51:57< DeFender1031> it seems that you're doing something that is causing ALL paths for certain units to be blocked, and therefore there's nowhere for them to go
20160808 09:52:59< DeFender1031> what you're asking is not possible, not because the game engine doesn't support it, but for the same reason that wanting 2+2 to equal both 5 and 17 at the same time is not possible.
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20160808 10:35:20< hay207> Ok, in a normal map, if a unit was blocking a shorter pathway, won't some AI units stay there , and some take the long path ?
20160808 10:36:16< DeFender1031> not with goto set. with goto set, IF there's a longer way available to a unit, it should go that way
20160808 10:36:46< DeFender1031> be aware that not all units can move on all terrain types (for example, the tentacle, as you noticed, cannot move on land)
20160808 10:37:13< DeFender1031> and therefore if the longer way involves hexes where a unit can't go, then there is no "longer way"
20160808 11:01:29< hay207> Ok, it's starting to work, 
20160808 11:01:51< DeFender1031> excellent
20160808 11:01:58< hay207> But what if the target hex is occupied ?
20160808 11:02:38< DeFender1031> then they can't move there. you asked this before and were given the suggestion of having target area rather than just one hex.
20160808 11:04:02< hay207> Changing the target hex location makes code work
20160808 11:04:43< hay207> So, there is something wrong with original hex location i guess
20160808 11:05:01< DeFender1031> sure, the fact that it's occupied.
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20160808 11:46:48< hay207> if i use target_unit instead of target_location, how to specify the unit that is targetted? 
20160808 11:48:53< hay207> wait, this appears to work only in 13.5 :(
20160808 11:53:09< hay207> goto_x,goto_y: makes a unit go to this location, how to make a unit go to another unit ?
20160808 11:53:43< zookeeper> by making it go to the location of the other unit.
20160808 11:55:13< hay207> But then the location of the other unit hex will be occupied, producing some errors
20160808 11:55:21< hay207> i guess
20160808 11:56:44< zookeeper> by making it go to a location adjacent to the other unit then
20160808 11:57:21< hay207> Ok, that may work
20160808 11:57:28< hay207> I will try
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20160808 13:36:58< hay207> Can i set goto to several hexes?
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20160808 13:54:28< DeFender1031> no
20160808 13:55:08< DeFender1031> but you can set up additional events which reset the goto every time the space gets blocked, or every turn to re-evaluate where it shuld be set to.
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20160808 13:55:51< hay207> Ok, how to target an area, as you said before
20160808 14:03:44< DeFender1031> AI
20160808 14:04:27< hay207> using goal then, not goto
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20160808 14:12:28< DeFender1031> yes, but you didn't like how that behavior worked either.
20160808 14:13:44< hay207> true
20160808 14:13:59< DeFender1031> So the only option left if you want it to be exactly the way you want is for you to put in the months of self-teaching it would take to learn how to write your own AI code and write your own custom AI that does it exactly the way you want.
20160808 14:14:10< DeFender1031> But you don't seem to have the patience for that.
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20160808 14:19:34< mattsc> hay207: I have about a 5 minute window to be online, so just one thing quickly.
20160808 14:19:59< mattsc> I do not understand why you are not using the goto micro AI as I suggested at the very beginning
20160808 14:20:32< hay207> Ok, will try
20160808 14:20:33< mattsc> It does all the things you want: you can set it for all units of a side, you can set multiple goal hexes, it has an option that makes it work even if the goal hexes are occupied ...
20160808 14:20:53< hay207> Good !
20160808 14:23:09< DeFender1031> mattsc, because as i understand it, it makes units continue toward a blocked path, and hay207 wants them to go around if a path is blocked.
20160808 14:23:55< mattsc> DeFender1031: that’s a behavior you can choose with an optional key, but the default is to choose the shortest path that is not blocked
20160808 14:24:15< DeFender1031> mattsc, don't tell me, tell hay207.
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20160808 14:24:50< DeFender1031> (which you just did, obviously)
20160808 14:25:05< mattsc> hay207: ^  as DeFender1031 says  (I figured you’re reading along)  :)
20160808 14:25:32< mattsc> [ but making assumptions like that is never good in online forums ]
20160808 14:25:52< woseshaman> I also remember there being a working tower defense map back on the 1.10 addon server
20160808 14:26:13< woseshaman> maybe you can find it and see how its done there
20160808 14:26:30< hay207> i am working on it
20160808 14:26:48< hay207> it has some errors in code
20160808 14:27:00< mattsc> I’m off again.  I’m traveling this week and will be completely out of contact next week, so my presence here will be spotty at best for the next couple weeks.
20160808 14:27:27< hay207> Have a good week !
20160808 14:27:46< mattsc> you too
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20160808 14:30:46< celmin|sleep> I thought 0-move units didn't work...
20160808 14:31:08< celmin|sleep> DeFender1031: Note that "goto micro AI" is different from "goto_x,goto_y".
20160808 14:31:57< DeFender1031> celmin|sleep, yes, that i'm aware of
20160808 14:32:51< DeFender1031> celmin|sleep, true, but you spoof 0-move units as 1-move units with a movement cost of 2 or higher for every terrain type.
20160808 14:33:17< DeFender1031> (though, there's no reason why 0 shouldn't be valid if the code were to be programmed properly)
20160808 14:45:43< celmin|sleep> Yeah...
20160808 14:46:26< DeFender1031> unless 0 is supposed to be a magic value that means "infinite"
20160808 14:47:03< celmin|sleep> When I tried in 1.12, I think the unit was given 1 move point.
20160808 14:47:08< DeFender1031> (which I could see being legitimate, although if it were me, i'd just add the word "infinite" as a special value)
20160808 14:47:42< DeFender1031> right, which is a totally inappropriate meaning for "0"
20160808 14:48:20< DeFender1031> actually, on that subject, there is no way to give infinite movement, or even a super-high value that will never be reached in practice.
20160808 14:48:59< DeFender1031> it seems that movement costs for terrain not specified is given an internal value of 99, so if you give a unit a movement amount greater than that, they can go where they're not supposed to.
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20160808 14:49:20< DeFender1031> even manually setting a movement cost higher than 99 for those types makes it max out at 99
20160808 14:49:50< celticminstrel> That should be change to 999 or 9999 or something...
20160808 14:50:17< DeFender1031> i'd change it to whatever the maximum value is for the internal variable storing it.
20160808 14:50:33< DeFender1031> rather than something arbitrary like that
20160808 14:50:40< celticminstrel> std::numeric_limits<whatever>::max()
20160808 14:50:40< DeFender1031> for example, 65536
20160808 14:50:44< DeFender1031> exactly.
20160808 14:50:47< DeFender1031> er
20160808 14:50:48< DeFender1031> 65535
20160808 14:50:54< DeFender1031> but whatever, you get the idea
20160808 14:51:24< DeFender1031> either that, or have "0" be a special case for movement cost.
20160808 14:51:37< DeFender1031> (which i'd disapprove, because i think that "0" should also be a valid movement cost)
20160808 14:51:42< celticminstrel> Setting it to the max storable value would probably result in ~2 million.
20160808 14:51:43< DeFender1031> (not that it currently is)
20160808 14:51:51< DeFender1031> fine, whatever it is.
20160808 14:52:13< hay207> Micro_ai works well,
20160808 14:52:14< DeFender1031> it's not like it takes up any more space if it's a larger number
20160808 14:52:20< hay207>  with one tweak to make it work on occupied hex, ignore_enemy_at_goal=yes
20160808 14:52:23< celticminstrel> True.
20160808 14:52:49< DeFender1031> and i think movement cost 0 should mean that moving across there is free.
20160808 14:52:55< hay207> Thanks guys, for the help :)
20160808 14:52:56< DeFender1031> but that'd probably be a huge change to the code
20160808 14:52:57< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20160808 14:53:12< celticminstrel> I dunno if it'd be a huge change.
20160808 14:53:37< DeFender1031> well, there'd be the case of a unit with 0 movement but next to a free movement area to consider. what color orb does that unit get?
20160808 14:54:02< celticminstrel> Orange I guess?
20160808 14:54:34< celticminstrel> ...free movement areas would let you move after attacking...
20160808 14:57:09< DeFender1031> so there'd have to be another boolean for "still allowed to move"
20160808 14:58:02< DeFender1031> which would have to be set for attacking or entering a zoc
20160808 14:58:36< celticminstrel> Oh... yeah, I guess. That would make debugging harder.
20160808 14:59:47< celticminstrel> And abilities or specials that allow you to move after attacking would break.
20160808 15:02:43< zookeeper> yeah, free movement would be a huge can of worms.
20160808 15:04:18< zookeeper> i have a hard time imagining legitimate usecases outside dirty hacks to simulate something completely different
20160808 15:05:07< zookeeper> (well, i can't imagine any of those either)
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20160808 15:14:31< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i can imagine a couple both in and out of the category you mentioned. I can imagine a level with a high-speed rail system or something where units can travel along predefined paths unimpeded. I can imagine a puzzle scenario where movement is determined by classic puzzle game mechanics (levers and switches and whatnot) rather than battle. (The latter is admittedly one of those dirty hacks to simulate something else 
20160808 15:14:32< DeFender1031> that you mentioned, but the former isn't necessarily.)
20160808 15:15:44< celticminstrel> I seem to recall that Civilization had free movement on railways.
20160808 15:15:53< zookeeper> yeah civ 2 had that, IIRC
20160808 15:16:04< celticminstrel> It was only Civ2 then?
20160808 15:16:11< zookeeper> well i dunno if the first one did, i've never played it
20160808 15:16:19< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, exactly.
20160808 15:16:21< zookeeper> i don't seem to recall that later ones did... but not sure.
20160808 15:16:25< celticminstrel> I have it, can't remember if I ever played it.
20160808 15:17:14< zookeeper> yeah maybe a rail system would be a legitimate usecase, if units couldn't move after attacking and all that (and that part of it would already be doable)
20160808 15:21:24< DeFender1031> did I win? did I win?
20160808 15:21:27< DeFender1031> :P
20160808 15:22:19< zookeeper> you need 10 points to have a win
20160808 15:22:23< zookeeper> you have 1
20160808 15:25:51< DeFender1031> [if] / [variable] / name=DeFender1031.points / greater_than_equal_to=1 / [/variable] / [then] / [endlevel] / result=victory / [/endlevel] / [/then] / [/if]
20160808 15:25:58< DeFender1031> did i win now? :D
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20160808 15:28:21< zookeeper> xiits
20160808 15:45:10< DeFender1031> zookeeper, huh?
20160808 15:46:52< hay207> Ok, now i want to add some statistics to the tower defense map
20160808 15:48:11< hay207> I want to calculate the number of enemies that reached the target hex, from each side
20160808 15:48:28< DeFender1031> you can track that with a variable
20160808 15:49:02< hay207> Is there some info/examples on wiki
20160808 15:52:48< hay207> The wiki seems to be a great tool
20160808 15:53:05< hay207> With the irc ofc 
20160808 15:53:13< hay207> :)
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20160808 16:13:46< hay207> Do i need to learn lua, to do some statistics ?
20160808 16:17:54< zookeeper> no
20160808 16:22:21< woseshaman> is the eclipse thing worth using?
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20160808 17:08:07< Kwandulin> So what would a drake king be named? "King"? Or some fancy neologism?
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20160808 17:33:25< nore> Hi there! :) I wanted to play a singleplayer campaign with a friend, that is playing the singleplayer campaign as you would normally, but on a server with someone else being as observer (so, no gameplay change, there just would be someone that sees what happens). As it is not possible to start singleplayer campaigns from the multiplayer menu, I wondered if there is any way to do this? Thanks!
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20160808 17:40:28< celticminstrel> Singleplayer campaigns aren't really designed to be played on a server. It might be possible to make it sort of work, but no guarantees. I suppose if the other person is just an observer it might be easier.
20160808 17:44:48< nore> Yeah, that's the objective; so this means singleplayer campaigns and multiplayer don't work the same way?
20160808 17:45:57< celticminstrel> I think they basically work the same way, but it's more complicated to make them work on a server.
20160808 17:46:20< nore> Oh, ok
20160808 17:47:11< zookeeper> Kwandulin, i can't really see "king" as the title
20160808 17:47:15< zookeeper> but, uh...
20160808 17:47:53< nore> I guess there isn't a way either for the game to record what happens and send it to another instance over the network for replay?
20160808 17:49:02< zookeeper> nore, yeah, it's not really possible in real time.
20160808 17:49:28< zookeeper> (and i doubt you'd be content with sending replay files around)
20160808 17:50:01< nore> Well, depends on how automatic it would be
20160808 17:50:36< nore> But it would use quite a lot of bandwidth anyway if you send the replay from the beginning each time
20160808 17:53:38< nore> What about the original idea of turning the singleplayer campaign into a multiplayer one? (With only one human player) I seem to understand some side ids would need to be added (this shouldn't be too difficult), but what about the ai storage? How do I know what should be stored from the campaign files?
20160808 17:54:40< zookeeper> that would work and it _might_ be relatively easy to do since it'd just be side 1 all the way through
20160808 17:56:07< nore> Yeah, but what is that ai storage thing which is mentionned on the wiki? Would it be needed?
20160808 17:56:28< zookeeper> you'd do it by basically copying the whole campaign directory, then changing... whatever is needed to make a campaign into a MP campaign, i don't know all the details
20160808 17:56:44< zookeeper> nor do i know what "AI storage" might refer to
20160808 17:57:13< nore> Ok, thanks anyway, I guess I'll try and see what happens
20160808 17:57:30< zookeeper> Kwandulin, yeah i don't know
20160808 17:58:27< Kwandulin> I'll ask in the forums later
20160808 18:00:36< DeFender1031> the issue with turning a single player into multiplayer is that there are certain events and actions which can be used safely in signle player but will cause a network OOS.
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20160808 18:13:17< nore> DeFender1031: which ones, for example?
20160808 18:14:02< tokage> is there a good multiplayer campaign in addons?
20160808 18:16:04< zookeeper> Kwandulin, in the now-deleted breeding-related portions of the encyclopedia, it was "Dominant"
20160808 18:16:27< zookeeper> so it's kind of fuzzy whether that could still be used as a title or not
20160808 18:17:24< Kwandulin> actually it doesn't sound too bad
20160808 18:19:51< zookeeper> Kwandulin, source: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0f47daf88ce97877eba46e3ed77015a63b380a5b
20160808 18:20:30< zookeeper> some of that terminology could still of course be used in slightly different ways
20160808 18:24:52< Kwandulin> zookeeper: thanks for the link
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20160808 18:51:17< DeFender1031> nore, i don't recall offhand, but any of those which is not network safe is documented as such on the wiki... Not particularly easy to search for though.
20160808 18:51:37< DeFender1031> One I recall offhand is "message" with options in it that also allows undo
20160808 18:52:25< DeFender1031> another is the "select" event
20160808 18:52:53< DeFender1031> nore, https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Eventwml#Multiplayer_safety
20160808 18:53:01< DeFender1031> this section will help but is not exhaustive
20160808 18:53:50< DeFender1031> it may also be difficult to search though the SP campaigns after the fact to find the obscure cases that can cause OOS
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20160808 18:56:28< zookeeper> then again, if it's just one player + an observer, the latter might get OOS but it won't really cause any problems.
20160808 18:57:03< zookeeper> i'm not sure if the player would even get any OOS messages, if the only other client(s) going OOS are observers? i assume they would, but... i dunno.
20160808 18:57:58< DeFender1031> zookeeper, depends on what the OOS is. If a unit doesn't get moved, or someone's gold or health value differs because something didn't play nice, then the observer will see some very wacky things
20160808 18:58:10< DeFender1031> Unless i'm much mistaken
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20160808 20:07:32< hay207> Ok, in statistics, i want this phrase to be written in code, which is:
20160808 20:07:42< hay207>  if a unit move from a hex to another
20160808 20:08:04< hay207> How here to write move from ?
20160808 20:13:10< hay207> or to express movefrom in wml code
20160808 20:13:42< celticminstrel> I have no clue what you're talking about.
20160808 20:14:19< hay207> :)
20160808 20:14:43< hay207> i want to add statistics to my map
20160808 20:17:54< hay207> these statistics write down no of units moved from a  hex  to another hex , for each player, thus calculating the ai units that got through from each player
20160808 20:18:49< hay207> I hope the idea is clear now, my map is a tower defense map
20160808 20:20:18< hay207> In map, there are 3 spawning areas
20160808 20:20:28< hay207> and 3 players
20160808 20:21:18< hay207> All spawns try to reach a certain hex on map
20160808 20:23:11< hay207> located in center
20160808 20:27:19< hay207> brb
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20160808 22:35:32< hay207>  Should i initialize the value of a variable?
20160808 22:35:48< hay207> before applying add to it
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20160808 22:40:53< zookeeper> no need
20160808 22:41:36< zookeeper> if the variable doesn't exist the first time you add to it, it'll work just as if it had been initialized to 0
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20160808 23:13:20< hay207> I get this error when using [units] tag; units not supported at scenario topllevel
20160808 23:42:59< celticminstrel> It goes outside the scenario tag.
--- Log closed Tue Aug 09 00:00:40 2016