--- Log opened Thu Aug 11 00:00:30 2016
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20160811 03:44:05< hay207> Can i write this in wml: if a unit moves from a specified hex to another specified hex, do .....
20160811 03:44:57< celmin> Isn't that what I explained how to do over three hours ago?
20160811 03:45:36< celmin> Oh, sorry, over four hours ago.
20160811 03:46:42< hay207> So, i use a moveto event ?
20160811 03:47:05< celmin> Sure.
20160811 03:49:52< hay207> and i set x2,y2 as variables, then
20160811 03:49:52< hay207> compare x1 and x2?
20160811 03:49:54< hay207> i don't have the idea how to do it
20160811 03:50:05< celmin> I told you already.
20160811 03:50:21< celmin> [filter_condition] containing [variable] tags.
20160811 03:50:52< celmin> (And just [filter] for the target hex.)
20160811 03:51:52< hay207> Ok, will try again 
20160811 03:52:25< hay207> When do i use [set_variable] and [variable] ?
20160811 03:53:38< hay207> i understand now more the use of variables after reading this https://wiki.wesnoth.org/VariablesWML/How_to_use_variables
20160811 03:54:04< celmin> You use [set_variable] to change the value of a variable, and [variable] to check the value of a variable.
20160811 03:54:16< celmin> Note that [set_variable] is ActionWML and [variable] is ConditionalWML.
20160811 03:54:29< celmin> ActionWML works in different places than ConditionalWML.
20160811 03:54:41< celmin> For example you can't use ConditionalWML in [event].
20160811 03:54:41< hay207> Ok, 
20160811 03:54:50< celmin> However you can use it in [filter_condition] or [if].
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20160811 03:58:12< hay207> understood,
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20160811 05:20:20< hay207> Can i use "this_unit.x2" as name for variable of the unit in x2 ?
20160811 05:22:08< celmin> No.
20160811 05:22:42< celmin> There's no such variable as "this_unit" unless you're in a StandardUnitFilter, and even then there's no "this_unit.x2".
20160811 05:24:15< hay207> i thought SUF in a conditional wml can be used ?
20160811 05:24:40< celmin> Your question doesn't make sense.
20160811 05:25:10< hay207> Ok, i understand
20160811 05:25:18< celmin> I doubt it.
20160811 05:25:47< hay207> SUF in [unit] [filter] only
20160811 05:26:11< celmin> Huh?
20160811 05:26:27< celmin> You can't put SUF in [unit].
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20160811 05:28:55< hay207> just noticed
20160811 05:33:07< hay207> Ok, i use then x2 and y2 to name the variable inside filter_condition
20160811 05:33:52< celmin> Finally it almost sounds like you're starting to understand.
20160811 05:34:05< hay207> :)
20160811 05:34:14< celmin> It seems too good to be true.
20160811 05:34:27< hay207> Which comparison key (is this the right term) i use to check x2, y2 ?
20160811 05:34:34< hay207> equals ?
20160811 05:34:52< celmin> I'd go with numerical_equals.
20160811 05:35:06< celmin> Since they're numbers.
20160811 05:35:38< hay207> Is comparison key, the right term to use?
20160811 05:36:12< celmin> Well, it was good enough for me to understand what you meant, and it is not fundamentally wrong.
20160811 05:36:27< celmin> So, sure.
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20160811 05:43:31< hay207> Ok, i pasted here my moveto event, 
20160811 05:43:35< hay207> http://pastebin.com/jZ6iJwzN
20160811 05:44:05< celmin> Oh my stars, that almost looks right. So close.
20160811 05:44:12< celmin> Two problems.
20160811 05:44:41< celmin> 1. [variable] is ConditionalWML. You can't use it in [event]. Change line 22 to [set_variable]. (Why the hell did you change that anyway?)
20160811 05:45:06< celmin> 2. You can't use a list of numbers in numerical_equals.
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20160811 05:45:07< hay207> oh sorry, mistyped
20160811 05:45:17< celmin> Only one number.
20160811 05:46:35< hay207> Then, which comparison key i shall use for a list of numbers
20160811 05:46:40< celmin> There is none.
20160811 05:46:47< celmin> Pick one.
20160811 05:46:55< celmin> If you really need all of them, then use [or].
20160811 05:47:11< hay207> Ok, i shall try
20160811 05:47:12< celmin> One [or] tag containing two [variable] tags for each possible location.
20160811 05:47:53< celmin> (Yes, I realize it's long. You can shorten it with the {VARIABLE_CONDITIONAL} macro, though that's just as likely to just confuse you further...)
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20160811 06:01:05< hay207> Should then i see the variable info [x2 and y2] in variables inside :inspect ?
20160811 06:01:37< celmin> I wouldn't rely on seeing those variables in :inspect. You might, if you're lucky.
20160811 06:02:02< celmin> If you want to see them, put an [inspect] tag in the event.
20160811 06:02:16< celmin> In that case they'll definitely be there.
20160811 06:13:14< hay207> Ok, i tried the filter_condition with only one x2,y2 and with [or] , didnot work,
20160811 06:25:10< celmin> Well, try re-reading what I told you to do. You probably interpreted it wrong.
20160811 06:27:58< hay207> Thanks for the help 
20160811 06:28:02< hay207> :)
20160811 06:28:11< celmin> :/
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20160811 06:41:26< DeFender1031> hay207, be aware that $x2 and $y2 in a moveto event refer to the hex being moved from ON THAT TURN, not the location where those units originated.
20160811 06:41:56< DeFender1031> Meaning, it dounds like you're trying to determine where a unit first spawned after the fact
20160811 06:43:06< hay207> True, i want the original spawning hex
20160811 06:43:13< DeFender1031> if you want units to have a special "tag" based on which area they spawned in, try using [modify_unit] to add a variable to each unit WHEN YOU FIRST SPAWN IT, and then check against that variable in your moveto.
20160811 06:43:44< DeFender1031> (No, I don't have an example. Read up on how unit.variables works.)
20160811 06:46:39< celmin> Add [variables] to your [unit] tags.
20160811 06:47:11< celmin> Oh, DeFender1031 already said this. Never mind.
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20160811 06:47:45< celmin> Clearly I should not still be awake.
20160811 06:48:04< hay207> Good night
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20160811 06:50:43< hay207> Will try defender
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20160811 07:22:21< j1sy> hello,is it advivesable to add all eras
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20160811 08:04:47< j1sy> what must i do when sdl 1.2 is drropped
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20160811 12:13:14< DeFender1031> okay, it's freaking hard to make a decent cave map.
20160811 12:16:54< zookeeper> caves in all games always tend to suck :p
20160811 12:17:57< zookeeper> if there are nice outdoor areas too, then i always prefer those
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20160811 12:21:31< woseshaman> for me making any kind of good map is hard, im just not good at that
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20160811 12:35:22< DeFender1031> If I were to want to ask a question about map making on the forum, in which section would I be best posting?
20160811 12:38:40< zookeeper> scenario & campaign development i guess, if it's about SP content
20160811 12:38:43< DeFender1031> i guess scenarios and campaigns
20160811 12:38:45< DeFender1031> yeah
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20160811 15:58:23< Kwandulin> DeFender1031: A good cave map depends on the faction you are playing, I guess. A good cave map for drakes certainly looks different from a good cave map for orcs/dwarves
20160811 15:59:28< DeFender1031> Kwandulin, I suppose that's true, though my faction is humans (including some custom units) with dwarven allies.
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20160811 16:01:17< Kwandulin> As a player, the thing that annoys me the most about cavemaps is, that often one is not able to quickly move his units through it. And then the scenario ends as a "move your units only 2 tiles per turn" and takes an unnecessary high amount of time to finish
20160811 16:01:23< DeFender1031> Kwandulin, i'm more just trying to pin down sort of... what things are FUN to encounter in a cave map? Long, narrow passages with fortified enemy guardians in castles every few hexes tends not to be particularly fun IMO.
20160811 16:01:40< Kwandulin> So I'd argue in favor of using a good amount of flat (arguably the dark flat tile, which looks cave-ish)
20160811 16:02:11< DeFender1031> Kwandulin, that doesn't bother me as much, so long as you're given lots of turns and the enemies don't have a massive movement advantage.
20160811 16:02:30< DeFender1031> there's two flat cave hexes.
20160811 16:02:41< DeFender1031> there's the light gray cave path and the dark gray flagstones
20160811 16:02:42< celmin> Dirt is the one I used, I think.
20160811 16:02:55< celmin> Huh? Light grey?
20160811 16:03:06< Kwandulin> DeFender1031: I think bottlenecks are pretty fun in caves, as long as the bottleneck is just a neck and not a long 1 tile broad passage
20160811 16:03:18< celmin> Dirt does also fit in caves IMO, though.
20160811 16:03:20< DeFender1031> celmin, the "Ur" terrain
20160811 16:03:36< celmin> Wait, doesn't U mean something other than flat...
20160811 16:03:49< DeFender1031> celmin, "Underground"
20160811 16:03:58< DeFender1031> In this case, it's "Underground road"
20160811 16:04:04< Kwandulin> And if the enemy is a dwarf, don't dare to put a stalwart up at a bottleneck :>
20160811 16:04:19< celmin> Oh.
20160811 16:04:22< celmin> Okay then.
20160811 16:04:37< DeFender1031> Kwandulin, enemy is trolls
20160811 16:04:41< celmin> Kwandulin: If the enemy is a dwarf, I think a stalwart is required.
20160811 16:04:41< DeFender1031> (probably)
20160811 16:04:50< DeFender1031> (and maybe some other underground baddies)
20160811 16:05:08< celmin> Well, not strictly required, but flavour-wise it really makes a lot of sense.
20160811 16:05:15< Kwandulin> celmin: A stalwart is insane for a bottleneck, especially if one uses the bottleneck micro ai (which does its job insanely well)
20160811 16:05:33< DeFender1031> celmin, of course it is. Who doesn't like spending 10 turns on the same group of defense-heavy enemies?
20160811 16:05:45< celmin> I forget exactly what its ability does.
20160811 16:06:05< DeFender1031> celmin, double resistance on defense
20160811 16:06:30< celmin> Oh, double resistance, okay. Nothing to do with CTH then.
20160811 16:06:46< celmin> I guess that means putting it on poor-defense terrain wouldn't help so much.
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20160811 16:06:56< Kwandulin> Other than that, it's also a lot of fun to find hidden passages to avoid the enemies' bottleneck or open up other passages
20160811 16:07:22< DeFender1031> celmin, resistance, not defence.
20160811 16:07:37< zookeeper> having drakes or other flying units probably helps a lot, since then you can put in chasms to fly over and catch enemies from directions of your choice
20160811 16:07:45< celmin> DeFender1031: That's why I said what I just said.
20160811 16:08:01< zookeeper> well, water and swimmers too, i guess.
20160811 16:08:48< DeFender1031> celmin, oh, i thought you meant "help" for the side with the stalwart, not "help" in terms of cutting down the annoyingness factor.
20160811 16:09:06< celmin> Yeah, I meant the latter.
20160811 16:09:34< DeFender1031> i understand now.
20160811 16:10:28< zookeeper> if the player only gets ground units then i guess you just have to put in lots of flat and make sure that there's enough room to manouver
20160811 16:10:33< DeFender1031> zookeeper, ah, that IS something I hadn't noticed, but now that i think of it works well, having enemies able to attack from directions you can't go.
20160811 16:11:15< zookeeper> DeFender1031, note that having enemies able to attack from where you can't go doesn't really play nice with fog and shroud :p
20160811 16:11:32< DeFender1031> zookeeper, why's that?
20160811 16:11:39< zookeeper> because you can't know where and when they might attack
20160811 16:11:44< zookeeper> because where you cannot go, you cannot see
20160811 16:11:57< DeFender1031> and why is that a bad thing?
20160811 16:12:11< celmin> Tomatoes I guess.
20160811 16:12:19< zookeeper> well imagine you playing, ending your turn, and then suddenly 3 drakes kill your leader without any warning.
20160811 16:13:17< DeFender1031> zookeeper, you can see one turn's worth. And surely any player who's not a moron would say "enemies have been coming from here, I should guard this area even though I can't see past it"
20160811 16:13:48< zookeeper> you can't see one turn's worth into terrain the enemy can move in but you can't
20160811 16:13:58< DeFender1031> chasm i thought you could
20160811 16:14:03< zookeeper> nope
20160811 16:14:28< DeFender1031> well, you can always alter vision costs...
20160811 16:14:53< DeFender1031> but either way, i'd only do that farther out, not right next to the player's castle
20160811 16:15:00< zookeeper> sure, or for example just give the player one flying unit which can act as a scout. and make it sufficiently clear that they need to keep an eye on those chasms :P
20160811 16:15:54< DeFender1031> for example, if the first time a chasm is encountered, a bunch of enemies fly over and some unit says "watch the chasms, they can fly in when you least expect it"?
20160811 16:16:09< zookeeper> i'm just saying that you need to make sure that the map isn't such that enemies can simply attack without warning. which could easily happen if there's chasms and the enemy has flyers, or there's deep water and the enemy has swimmers.
20160811 16:16:10< DeFender1031> (because that's what i'd do anyway)
20160811 16:16:19< DeFender1031> right
20160811 16:17:27< zookeeper> specifically warning the player about it helps, but i'd argue that it's still not fun if you need to constantly be on maximum alert because an enemy can appear literally anywhere as far as you know
20160811 16:17:35< DeFender1031> hmm... seems like drakes can fly over chasms but are otherwise crap in caves.
20160811 16:17:52< DeFender1031> though, i suppose if i make it movement-friendly to humans, it'll be so to drakes too
20160811 16:18:23< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i could also add an event that whenever any such chasm is sighted, it reveals the whole chasm and a little beyond it.
20160811 16:18:46< zookeeper> sure. if there's like one big continuous chasm in the middle of a chamber then that would work nicely.
20160811 16:18:54< celmin> If fog is off
20160811 16:19:16< DeFender1031> zookeeper, but it seems that i misunderstood your suggestion above, because this is what i thought you WERE suggesting.
20160811 16:19:32< zookeeper> celmin, or you can use [lift_fog] to permanently keep the fog cleared, i believe
20160811 16:19:33< DeFender1031> zookeeper, when you said "having drakes or other flying units probably helps a lot, since then you can put in chasms to fly over and catch enemies from directions of your choice"
20160811 16:19:39< celmin> True
20160811 16:19:59< zookeeper> DeFender1031, yeah i just meant that it's easier to make fun cave scenarios if the _player_ has flyers
20160811 16:20:03< celmin> I thought he was referring to you there, not enemies
20160811 16:20:16< DeFender1031> zookeeper, ooh! a continuous chasm that wou can see all of, and you have to cross several times on foot maybe
20160811 16:20:23< DeFender1031> zookeeper, ooooooooooooh.
20160811 16:20:25< DeFender1031> gotcha.
20160811 16:20:42< DeFender1031> yeah, i think giving the player a flyer would be problematic here
20160811 16:21:08< celmin> Naga+water?
20160811 16:21:24< DeFender1031> and then at the last chasm, you have to hold off a balrog and lose your leade- wait. Never mind. :P
20160811 16:21:26< celmin> (Nagas are okay on land right?)
20160811 16:21:40< DeFender1031> celmin, decent, if i recall correctly
20160811 16:21:45< zookeeper> better than merfolk
20160811 16:21:51< DeFender1031> though this is a fire cave, not a water cave.
20160811 16:21:55< celmin> Ah.
20160811 16:22:09< DeFender1031> (again, story reasons)
20160811 16:22:22< DeFender1031> drakes as the enemy could work well though
20160811 16:22:40< DeFender1031> ooh, perhaps with a full dragon at the end as the "boss"
20160811 16:22:49< celmin> XD
20160811 16:22:54< DeFender1031> though, i think that goes against established canon unless i retcon something
20160811 16:23:14< celmin> I personally don't think there's a strong relation between drakes and dragons.
20160811 16:23:18< DeFender1031> btw, speaking of drakes and dragons, is the idea supposed to be that drakes decended from the dragons of old?
20160811 16:23:25< celmin> No idea
20160811 16:23:28< DeFender1031> well, there's my answer even before i asked.
20160811 16:23:39< DeFender1031> i dunno, they seem pretty similar to me
20160811 16:24:05< celmin> They certainly have some similarities, so maybe there's some relation between them.
20160811 16:25:14< zookeeper> uncertain
20160811 16:25:31< zookeeper> but it's reasonable to assume that there's something to it
20160811 16:25:58< DeFender1031> i guess this is what vultraz is referring to when he says we don't have enough lore established :P
20160811 16:26:55< celmin> Especially drake lore.
20160811 16:27:05< celmin> Also saurian and naga lore, I think.
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20160811 16:54:00< DeFender1031> aeth, you're the map expert. Any advice for me?
20160811 16:54:22< celmin> Why is he a map expert? :P Does making huge maps make you an expert or something?
20160811 16:54:49< DeFender1031> celmin, probably.
20160811 16:55:19< DeFender1031> celmin, it at least means that you really really like making maps.
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 12 00:00:57 2016