--- Log opened Fri Aug 12 00:00:57 2016
20160812 00:03:29< aeth> DeFender1031: I've only made one traditional map (Twin Rivers, in my mappack but not on the latest version of Wesnoth yet)
20160812 00:04:25< aeth> I've made some other traditionalish maps with uneven teams or FFA but those are all hard to balance.
20160812 00:05:43< aeth> Nothing I've made tries to fit into Wesnoth lore/canon.
20160812 00:06:32< aeth> I guess you're talking about a campaign/scenario though not a micro-balanced MP map.
20160812 00:06:49< aeth> DeFender1031: With caves, I've found that I can make it look like a cave without having much of the cave terrain at all. See some of my recent maps on Github for that.
20160812 00:06:53< aeth> Even some of my old ones.
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20160812 00:07:36< aeth> Ford, gray water, cave path, mid and dark dirt, etc. Even sometimes dead trees or jungle since it's fantasy (and sometimes there are jungle trees in caves, I think there's one particularly impressive one in southeast Asia)
20160812 00:08:36< aeth> I probably use rockbound cave almost as much (if not more than) regular cave so units at least get hill-style defense there even if they're bad in caves.
20160812 00:09:36< aeth> Also lots of castle, and even rails to at least allow decent movement.
20160812 00:10:28< aeth> tl;dr: The trick I do in most parts of my caves is to make it look like a cave without using much (non-rockbound, non-village, non-mushroomed, non-railed) cave at all.
20160812 00:10:44< aeth> And where I use cave terrain it's usually on the edges where it doesn't matter that much
20160812 00:12:03< aeth> Cave path, dark dirt, rails, and ford are probably going to be your best friends. With fire/lava it's a bit tougher, but you can add in rubble, cobblestone (thanks, minecraft), drake villages, and even human-style castles.
20160812 00:12:17< celmin> Why Minecraft?
20160812 00:12:43< aeth> lava + water = cobblestone in Minecraft so that helps (regular) cobblestone not look out of place in lava caves
20160812 00:13:47< aeth> it also blends well with the chasm border, and on peninsulas produces a cool effect with the transition if it's lava rather than lava chasm
20160812 00:14:42< aeth> I have probably attempted every type of cave mix in my largest map for appearances, and probably ran out of ideas about 75% of the way through filling in my caves.
20160812 00:14:51< aeth> Some work better than others.
20160812 00:16:35< aeth> Don't hesitate to pull in a lot of castle and village types even if they might seem out of place to keep the variety going. It's fantasy, e.g. human city ruins in a cave doesn't need to look out of place.
20160812 00:55:05< aeth> Wow, almost 600 spawns in, maybe I'll have to have about 2000 or so before I'm done. I am doing the most populated part of the map by far, though.
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20160812 06:48:04< sanaris> Hey, it seems that primary MP server does not accept git version. Is that so?
20160812 06:57:22< shadowm> Depends.
20160812 06:58:19< shadowm> The stable MP servers accept Git builds from the same stable branch, since stable branches don't get incompatible changes of any kind.
20160812 06:59:21< shadowm> It's Git builds frm a development branch (e.g. master) that don't get landed in the main dev server by default, since the dev branch is a moving target and dev versions tend to be incompatible with each other.
20160812 06:59:30< sanaris> Okay. Dev+git won't work
20160812 06:59:40< shadowm> Well, no, not by default.
20160812 07:00:05< shadowm> If you know what you're doing and that you won't get sync issues because of incompatible changes, you can still use development builds from master to connect to the main dev server.
20160812 07:00:53< shadowm> In fact, it looks like this is the case for all master branch builds right now probably because of a server-side configuration issue.
20160812 07:02:10< shadowm> Oookay, fixed. That was very awkward.
20160812 07:02:43< shadowm> Anyway, if you're in possession of a build from Git master, you should be able to connect to the main dev server using server.wesnoth.org:14997.
20160812 07:03:14< shadowm> But if you encounter sync issues due to some incompatible change added after the previous dev release that'd be your own responsibility.
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20160812 07:19:11< sanaris> cool, but... seems that people don't play dev version :( I remember there was ladder, is it living yet?
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20160812 08:44:28< DeFender1031> aeth, thanks for the tips.
20160812 08:45:52< DeFender1031> aeth, also, some of what you said spawned other ideas. Since my campaign takes place in the future (well, after every mainline campaign except UtBS), it'd make sense to find ruins in an abandoned area of the caves.
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20160812 09:07:35< zookeeper> depending on how deep the cave is supposed to be, you can have cracks in the ceiling with lightbeams and some grass and stuff underneath
20160812 09:07:41< zookeeper> for some extra variety
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20160812 14:06:58< Glen_> Hi I have a question! For my scenario, I define the leader of side 1 as a Pikeman so I can use his id later on in the scenario to move him around and modify him
20160812 14:08:03< Glen_> But I want the leader of side 1 to be "Random" or something the player can choose rather than preset, but I want to modify and move this unit. 
20160812 14:14:37< zookeeper> single- or multiplayer?
20160812 14:14:42< Glen_> multiplayer
20160812 14:15:31< zookeeper> ok, well first of all the type of the unit has nothing to do with its id
20160812 14:16:32< zookeeper> i don't know what sort of id leaders tend to get in normal MP scenarios which don't define the leader unit. but you can just change the unit's id to whatever you want in a prestart event. but you don't even need to give it a custom id to be able to do things with/to it.
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20160812 14:17:38< zookeeper> unless you have multiple leaders per side, you can always identify the leader with a simple side,canrecruit=1,yes SUF instead of an id=foo SUF
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20160812 15:40:53< nore> I've got a bug with Legend of Wesmere in multiplayer: at the beginning of chapter 3, Kalenz is turned into a Fighter again, is controlled by ai and starts recruiting undead. Is this known?
20160812 15:50:39< DeFender1031> nore, that sounds extremely strange.
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20160812 17:57:26< aeth> DMG-WR0K: oh one thing I left out is that if you do have water, the muddy quagmire variant of swamp works well visually, too, if you want terrain variation
20160812 17:57:29< aeth> oops
20160812 17:57:36< aeth> I meant to autocomplete to defender but he left
20160812 17:57:37< aeth> sorry
20160812 17:58:54< aeth> dark (or mid) dirt + gray water + ford + muddy quagmire, with the giant mushrooms (can be placed over any terrain) and earthy cave works well as a very different looking B-style for caves
20160812 17:59:28< aeth> (the idea being an area that once had a higher water level)
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20160812 18:38:30< celticminstrel> B-style?
20160812 18:43:32< aeth> celticminstrel: A-style is gray, B-style is brown
20160812 18:43:56< aeth> It works almost perfectly, but there is no earthy rockbound cave.
20160812 18:45:11< aeth> The idea is to sort of create psuedo-biomes so that every terrain is used, but it's not a mess of every terrain all in one spot. The rules aren't absolute, though.
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20160812 19:02:13< aeth> celticminstrel: do you want to see what I have done so far?
20160812 19:02:21< celticminstrel> On what?
20160812 19:02:36< aeth> my gigantic RPG
20160812 19:02:47< aeth> I should be able to get it playable again soon, but not yet, unfortunately
20160812 19:02:53< aeth> playable but the map will be far from finished
20160812 19:02:55< celticminstrel> Oh.
20160812 19:04:01< aeth> I want to at the very least do this before the next test: https://github.com/Aethaeryn/wesnoth-umc/blob/0218892c8c7531df698823be0757b81d92921093/Aethaeryns_Mod/todo#L4-L17
20160812 19:04:14< aeth> which will mean months without fixing inventory :P
20160812 19:04:21< aeth> but it's so spaghetti, or at least it was, I wanted to avoid it
20160812 19:04:27< aeth> Even though everyone plays RPG for inventory on Wesnoth
20160812 19:04:34< aeth> inventory/upgrades
20160812 19:05:52< aeth> I have almost all of the spawns west of the major river, which is about 1/2 of the outdoor area but by far the most populated part
20160812 19:06:16< aeth> it's basically like three different RPGs... a populated side of the river, a less populated side of the river that's more dangerous, and a huge dungeon/cave area that's, well, huge
20160812 19:07:33< aeth> celticminstrel: It can be played like a traditional Wesnoth RPG, but it can also be used to essentially create the largest battle in Wesnoth history with e.g. each side controlling 10-25 or so units at a time lent from the NPC side in an attempt to defend against a massive assault
20160812 19:08:36< aeth> The latter could be the finale of a large quest line if I add quests to it. I've scrapped the bribing mechanic and instead I'll just have units be loaned during quests since there are so many.
20160812 19:09:18< aeth> so e.g. a town garrison could join the adventurers to eliminate a nearby undead hotspot... and if you play them as disposable (since it's just a quest) then maybe the town will fall later on with no guards to defend it
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 13 00:00:31 2016