--- Log opened Mon Aug 15 00:00:35 2016
20160815 00:01:15< celmin> Monestery is the correct spelling, I think .
20160815 00:01:52< aeth> emacs's spellcheck doesn't know either spelling
20160815 00:02:06< aeth> monastery
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20160815 00:02:47< aeth> I'm surprised I couldn't spell it right. I used to play AoE II all the time
20160815 00:02:57< home> vultraz: could you look me to built binaries?
20160815 00:03:15< vultraz> for?
20160815 00:03:38< home> 1.10
20160815 00:03:47< vultraz> [10:32:59]	vultraz	https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/wesnoth-1.10/wesnoth-1.10.7/
20160815 00:04:07< celmin> Ah, right, I thought mine also looked wrong.
20160815 00:04:15< celmin> But my spellchecker wasn't helping either.
20160815 00:04:16< home> right
20160815 00:04:21< home> but none of those are built binaries
20160815 00:04:27< home> except for maybe the .exe
20160815 00:04:40< vultraz> are you on linux?
20160815 00:04:43< celmin> There's probably a dmg too, for Mac users.
20160815 00:04:46< home> ubuntu
20160815 00:04:50< vultraz> ah
20160815 00:04:57< celmin> But if you're on Linux you need to get it from your package manager somehow.
20160815 00:05:02< vultraz> ^
20160815 00:05:05< home> .
20160815 00:05:11< home> the package manager doesn't have the version I'm looking for
20160815 00:05:19< home> is there not a dpkg lying around?
20160815 00:05:24< vultraz> then you need to built it yourself, sadly
20160815 00:05:27< shadowm> Did you enable backports?
20160815 00:05:33< home> ah
20160815 00:05:36< home> I tride that
20160815 00:05:38< celmin> You can probably get it from an older version?
20160815 00:05:54< celmin> I mean, it must've been on the package manager in the past, so I imagine that's likely still available somehow.
20160815 00:06:03< shadowm> (You haven't said which version of Ubuntu.)
20160815 00:08:24< home> 16.04
20160815 00:08:59< home> I need wesnoth 1.10 so I can play with people using ipads
20160815 00:11:08< shadowm> Oh, going backwards.
20160815 00:11:18< shadowm> Yeah, you'll need to build it from source.
20160815 00:11:49< celmin> Can't install it from older package repos?
20160815 00:12:00< shadowm> Yes but no.
20160815 00:12:02< celmin> Like LTS or whatever
20160815 00:12:41< shadowm> There's a 50/50 chance it'll not work because of dependencies on older versions of libraries with different sonames.
20160815 00:13:01< shadowm> (In particular, the Boost libraries, which are the most prone to API/ABI breakage.)
20160815 00:14:29< Glen_> hi i have a question regarding the use of a pre-defined macro which allows the player to give commands to an AI side, I saw it used in a Campaign(The Eastern Invasion)
20160815 00:14:52< Glen_>   {AI_CONTROLLER () 1 2 ()}
20160815 00:15:23< Glen_> But when I try to use the same macro in my multiplayer scenario, it crashes the game
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20160815 00:16:34< celmin> Wow, that's bad.
20160815 00:19:23< Glen_> I don't understand. How do I use this macro in my scenario?
20160815 00:29:42< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) Note that we do NOT have an official Facebook page right now. All BfW-related pages are fanmade and do not express the views of our devs. [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/764982359305297921 ]
20160815 00:32:23< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) @Arsivnet happy to please :D [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/764983036408573952 ]
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20160815 01:23:35< aeth> ancestral: sorry it seemed like I went away ... bad storm in my area, I thought I was going to lose power
20160815 01:23:39< aeth> but it seems like it's passing
20160815 01:23:43< aeth> the lights did flicker a bit twice
20160815 01:23:51< ancestral> I’m busy doing things too
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20160815 01:51:53< hay207__> Hi Ravana_, 
20160815 01:52:39< hay207__> You know how to fix my code?
20160815 01:54:31< hay207__> You said i was using unit variables as global
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20160815 01:57:31< celmin> ...
20160815 02:10:39< tokage> hey. which multiplayer campaigns can you recommend?
20160815 02:10:44< tokage> in addons
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20160815 02:20:14< aeth> a lot of multiplayer content is designed to last a long time on one scenario rather than in a campaign because MP campaigns were buggy for a long time
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20160815 02:40:15< aeth> celmin: btw you should be able to play the game (I think)
20160815 02:40:45< aeth> celmin: DeFender1031 didn't get high CPU usage until I gave DeFender1031 side 6 (the NPCs, one of the two sides to see the whole map with no fog/shroud)
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20160815 02:53:03< celmin> I see.
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20160815 04:12:16< janebot> wesnoth: A couple of questions about unit group icons (by /u/EastGuardian) https://redd.it/4xrvo2
20160815 04:21:15< celmin> They expect readers to know what "unit group icons" are?
20160815 04:22:16< janebot> wesnoth: Advertising for Wesnoth? (by /u/Solitary_Orc) https://redd.it/4xrx3b
20160815 04:22:45< celmin> What the heck.
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20160815 06:04:37< hay207__> Hi, i have 2 units of same type and same attributes, only x,y positions are different, can i use modify_unit to add different variables to each?
20160815 06:04:53< celticminstrel> Probably.
20160815 06:05:37< hay207__> idk, but only first unit accepts variables
20160815 06:07:57< hay207__> i use [variables] tag  to add the variables to modify_unit
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20160815 06:12:26< celticminstrel> Should work, I think.
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20160815 06:25:55< hay207__> Can i use a unit variable in [filter_condition] ?
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20160815 06:39:03< celticminstrel> Sure?
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20160815 08:14:50< zookeeper> Glen_, it crashes before you ever see the menu?
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20160815 08:39:46< zookeeper> anyway, i can't reproduce that in a local MP game.
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20160815 09:00:02< DeFender1031> i'm having what I imagine is a very basic issue, but I can't figure out why, so maybe someone can help. Here's the code: http://paste.nachsoftware.com/DeFender1031/hPhKJ7452409c240438664cd357b184549649bjH
20160815 09:00:04< Ravana_> hay207__: hi
20160815 09:00:32< DeFender1031> I'm trying to create a stonemason at 34,20 who appears with an animation
20160815 09:00:53< hay207__> Hi Ravana_
20160815 09:00:57< DeFender1031> (hence why i create to the recall list and then recall with "show=yes" rather than just directly creating)
20160815 09:01:34< DeFender1031> but for some reason, the [recall] isn't working, even though after the event is over, i check the recall list and see that the new stonemason is there
20160815 09:03:11< zookeeper> dunno, looks like it should work
20160815 09:03:29< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i know. hence my confusion
20160815 09:03:36< zookeeper> in any case, [unit] does take animate=yes
20160815 09:04:02< zookeeper> so you can just do {GENERIC_UNIT 1 Stonemason 34 20} [+unit] animate=yes [/unit]
20160815 09:06:13< DeFender1031> oh. that's useful.
20160815 09:15:57< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i thought there ought to be, but it's apparently documented under SingleUnitWML rather than under the [unit] tag where i'd have expected it.
20160815 09:16:38< zookeeper> well there's really nothing under the [unit] tag except a link to SingleUnitWML...
20160815 09:17:06< DeFender1031> zookeeper, that, and "to_variable"
20160815 09:17:13< zookeeper> yes
20160815 09:17:47< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i'd expect the attributes that only mean something in the context of the action tag to be there, and the ones which are actually parameters of the unit itself to be on the single unit page
20160815 09:17:59< DeFender1031> so to_variable and animate i'd expect to be there
20160815 09:18:07< DeFender1031> animate isn't actually a unit attribute.
20160815 09:19:08< zookeeper> i guess that would make sense.
20160815 09:19:15< DeFender1031> zookeeper, anyway, skipping the whole recall thing and just doing animate=yes works as expected. Also, before switching I tried giving the new guy an explicit ID and then just recalling by ID. Also fails. I imagine there's some bug where units created on the recall list are not actually put there until after the event ends or something.
20160815 09:19:32< DeFender1031> zookeeper, so i'll make that change on the wiki
20160815 09:20:38< zookeeper> actually...
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20160815 09:21:16< zookeeper> i'm not sure which would make more sense, moving the [unit]-specific things to DirectActionsWML, or just keeping everything in SingleUnitWML (including to_variable)
20160815 09:22:02< zookeeper> it is kind of handy to have everything in the same place, after all, and the only possible confusion currently comes from to_variable being listed (also) in DirectActionsWML
20160815 09:22:08< DeFender1031> zookeeper, good question. there's also some gray areas, like the relationship between x,y (which is a unit attribute) and placement (which is only relevant when placing)
20160815 09:22:25< DeFender1031> zookeeper, ah, it's an "also"
20160815 09:23:57< DeFender1031> i'd still suggest listing only those which are actually relevant to a unit itself on the unit page, and those which affect creation on the action tag (including having an entry for things like x,y which have additional meaning upon initial creation)
20160815 09:28:19< hay207__> Hi DeFender1031
20160815 09:28:27< DeFender1031> sup, hay207__?
20160815 09:28:43< hay207__> My latest code as you said
20160815 09:28:45< hay207__> http://pastebin.com/92xj30Ym
20160815 09:29:25< hay207__> However [modify_unit] works only one time, 
20160815 09:29:57< hay207__> So, i inserted the variable in [unit] 
20160815 09:31:13< DeFender1031> hay207__, that's not true. [modify_unit] works as many times as you want
20160815 09:31:43< hay207__> i mean i use it to insert variables 
20160815 09:32:00< hay207__> to units of same type
20160815 09:32:08< DeFender1031> i know what you mean
20160815 09:32:26< hay207__> Here, it won't work
20160815 09:33:03< DeFender1031> yes it will, you're just not doing it right and are refusing to actually learn the basics before assuming you understand what code does.
20160815 09:34:13< hay207__> I'm learning each day, ask me something in basics
20160815 09:34:17< hay207__> :)
20160815 09:36:52< hay207__> Anyway, i inserted ghe variable in [unit] then checked against
20160815 09:37:02< hay207__> the*
20160815 09:39:19< DeFender1031> okay, how's this for basics? Can you write some WML that checks whether the value in the variable named "stored" is greater than 3, and if it is, shows a message from the narrator with "Stored is greater than three.", and if not, shows a message from the narrator that says "We need more storage!"?
20160815 09:41:23< DeFender1031> in the meantime, i have a question of my own for zookeeper or anyone else. It seems that even with "fire_event=yes" in a [move_unit] tag, only the moveto event is fired, and not enter and exit hex. Is there any way to make those fire too?
20160815 09:42:42< zookeeper> sounds like a bug, so i doubt it
20160815 09:44:19< DeFender1031> zookeeper, bug or feature? :P
20160815 09:44:40< zookeeper> well, i'd be inclined to go with bug
20160815 09:44:52< DeFender1031> The documentation for fire_event only mentions moveto
20160815 09:45:01< DeFender1031> "fire_event (optional, boolean yes|no, default no): Whether any according moveto events shall be fired. The target location ($x1, $y1 in the event) may not be the same location that the unit was tried to be moved to, if the original target location is occupied or impassable."
20160815 09:45:34< hay207__> http://pastebin.com/gSMY5KH6
20160815 09:46:16< zookeeper> DeFender1031, true. hrhm.
20160815 09:46:33< DeFender1031> hay207__, very good, though there's no indentation.
20160815 09:47:04< hay207__> i wrote it quickly
20160815 09:47:06< DeFender1031> hay207__, so if you understand this, you can apply it to your case.
20160815 09:47:54< DeFender1031> hay207__, when you spawn a unit in one of the three areas, also give it a variable that says which area it was in. when it reaches your target hex, store the unit, check the variable within the unit, and do whatever accordingly.
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20160815 10:19:06< bob_> i'm having a problem with the AI of campaign allies :)
20160815 10:19:30< bob_> mostly that there isn't any and I end of controlling multiple armies :p
20160815 10:20:21< bob_> NR and LoW
20160815 10:21:11< zookeeper> in both campaigns you _do_ end up having to control multiple sides
20160815 10:21:18< zookeeper> unusual but intentional
20160815 10:21:59< bob_> i see, thanks
20160815 10:22:43< bob_> first play through on those campaigns for me, I'm played most others several times already 
20160815 10:24:37< bob_> the NR showdown especially is a bit of a bear when playing 3 sides, 1 ai friend and multiple ai opponents :(
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20160815 10:47:40< zookeeper> isn't all of NR a bit of a bear? :p
20160815 10:59:33< bob_> yes
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20160815 11:01:21< zookeeper> DeFender1031, actually i think the best way would be to put everything in SingleUnitWML, but separate it into two sections; the actual unit attributes, and the placement/etc -related ones that only do anything when creating the unit.
20160815 11:03:41< bob_> i had to replay a few of the earlier scenarios with questionable tactics just to get them to end within a reasonable timeframe. like save-scumming a few heavy hitters through the enemy line. to get a leader to a keep tile. so I could stop them recruiting.
20160815 11:06:31< zookeeper> easiest difficulty?
20160815 11:07:52< bob_> started with higher difficulty but lowered to easy with the hope it would reduce army size
20160815 11:13:18< zookeeper> okay. well, it is apparently a rather tough campaign.
20160815 11:19:57< bob_> tough in a slow, grinding sort of way
20160815 11:25:23< bob_> http://i.imgur.com/5FO4nTW.jpg
20160815 11:36:40< bob_> anyways... tärkeintä ei ole voitto vaan se että ruotsi häviää and all that. thanks for listening and enjoy your day. 
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20160815 12:11:58< celmin|sleep> zookeeper, DeFender1031: I think I'd support moving attributes of [unit] that are not actual unit attributes away from SingleUnitWML, as then SingleUnitWML could be better used as a reference for the structure of a [store_unit] variable. (However, it should probably link back to the [unit] info as well.) I'd support separating SingleUnitWML into sections, too.
20160815 12:27:29< DeFender1031> celmin|sleep, that reasonung was my thinking as well
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20160815 16:54:07< aeth> Wow, unless I'm mistaken I just have 4 areas left to populate right now. Then it's just a matter of finishing the map and the code.
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20160815 17:33:43< DeFender1031> aeth, sweet
20160815 17:34:21< DeFender1031> aeth, by the way, I had a different idea about how to handle loading and unloading so that you don't have everything loaded at once.
20160815 17:34:31< DeFender1031> much simpler than what i was talking about yesterday
20160815 17:34:54< DeFender1031> why not have a control for the DM to load or unload the population of a certain area?
20160815 17:35:44< DeFender1031> i even came up with a simple way to define areas for this that doesn't involve manually defining the borders
20160815 17:36:25< DeFender1031> (though i haven't tested this and it might end up using more resoureces than it saves, but...)
20160815 17:36:52< DeFender1031> basically my idea would be to make an alternate 200x400 map which uses a different terrain type for each zone you want to define.
20160815 17:37:56< DeFender1031> then, when depopulating an area into memory, you'd replace_map to this zone definition map, store_unit for side=1,6 and where the terrain is that zone's terrain, with kill=yes
20160815 17:39:03< DeFender1031> for repopulating the zone, you'd just have to unstore that zone's units in a loop (probably with check_passability and find_vacant to avoid overwriting existing units, such as the players)
20160815 17:40:35< DeFender1031> oh, you'd have to store the map before doing the replace, obviously, so that you can unreplace back to the map you have.
20160815 17:42:47< celmin> Wonder if someone should add an [unstore_units].
20160815 17:44:51< Ravana_> sounds like it could be easily done with just Lua
20160815 17:44:57< celmin> Yeah.
20160815 17:45:08< zookeeper> sounds pointless, too
20160815 17:45:24< celmin> How does it sound pointless?
20160815 17:45:37< celmin> It seems like something that's very commonly needed.
20160815 17:45:47< Ravana_> currently it just requires people to learn how foreach works in order to unstore
20160815 17:46:24< zookeeper> no one "needs" the ability to not have to surround their [store_unit] with two extra lines
20160815 17:46:44< Ravana_> better idea though would be to make [unstore_unit] detect if it is given array
20160815 17:46:55< zookeeper> literally no one ever has complained that it's a chore
20160815 17:47:26< celmin> That might be better, yeah.
20160815 17:47:42< zookeeper> and yes, that kind of functionality should just go in [unstore_unit]
20160815 17:48:14< zookeeper> but if it was made to do it automatically, that'd break current uses where someone happens to (knowingly or not) rely on it unstoring just the first unit of the array.
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20160815 17:51:13< hay207__> Can i use name in [unit] to filter this unit later ?
20160815 17:51:22< celmin> What.
20160815 17:52:09< hay207__> the name attribute
20160815 17:52:21< hay207__> under [unit] tag
20160815 17:52:32< celmin> What.
20160815 17:52:38< zookeeper> you can. you never need to.
20160815 17:53:12< celmin> You should use id for that.
20160815 17:53:17< hay207__> And if a user changes unit name, will it affect the code
20160815 17:54:03< zookeeper> if a user changes unit name, the unit name changes.
20160815 17:55:44< hay207__> But a user cannot rename an ai unit
20160815 17:57:26< hay207__> celmin: i tried using id, the problem is that id is used to select unit_type of the waves, and i want to give each wave another id , based on location of wave
20160815 18:12:28< Ravana_> but user can take control of ai side and rename it then
20160815 18:12:34< Ravana_> (unless you use 1.13)
20160815 18:14:26< hay207__> True rav
20160815 18:15:24< aeth> DeFender1031, celmin, Ravana_: I only use Lua for my add-on
20160815 18:16:15< aeth> I find WML makes doing complicated things very, very hard because it has no way to structure programming. WML is sort of like a half-Lisp from someone who never heard of Lisp before.
20160815 18:18:42< aeth> Also, Bob's RPG Era is a very similar add-on to some of the things I am planning to do and its saves take forever, so apparently macro-heavy, fancy WML has its performance limitations if I wanted to pretend WML macros were functions.
20160815 18:22:28< aeth> DeFender1031: There will probably be two different kinds of loading. One is the initial loading of the units, the other is reloading of units that are stored. They could even use different systems.
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20160815 18:48:19< DeFender1031> <zookeeper> literally no one ever has complained that it's a chore <-- I have.
20160815 18:48:59< zookeeper> really? well you shouldn't have :>
20160815 18:49:20< DeFender1031> uh huh...
20160815 18:51:09< DeFender1031> hay207__, if you're rewriting unit ids to track other data, you're doing it wrong.
20160815 18:56:39< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i mean it's just in that class of problems that never get in anyone's way of actually doing what they want to do, it's mostly something that one can look at and ponder how it could be more elegant.
20160815 18:57:09< DeFender1031> zookeeper, of course it's never gotten in my way.
20160815 18:57:34< zookeeper> that kind of thing seems to get unproportionate amount of developer attention these days
20160815 18:58:10< zookeeper> s/un/dis
20160815 19:05:29< hay207__> DeFender1031: i think problem solved, the problem was that the waves with same unit_type already got an id
20160815 19:05:53< hay207__> So i used that id to filter them
20160815 19:11:56< DeFender1031> hay207__, you're giving the same ID to multiple units?
20160815 19:12:56< hay207__> i m giving one id to units of same unit_type
20160815 19:13:04< DeFender1031> yeah, you're doing it wrong.
20160815 19:13:26< DeFender1031> id is supposed to be unique to each unit.
20160815 19:13:38< DeFender1031> you should be setting a unit variable.
20160815 19:13:50< DeFender1031> like we've been telling you for the last week
20160815 19:14:21< DeFender1031> giving the same id to more than one unit is a very bad idea.
20160815 19:15:29< hay207__> Well, it appears units of same type got one id, but this isnot true
20160815 19:18:55< DeFender1031> hay207__, please start making sense.
20160815 19:19:59< DeFender1031> what exactly are you doing with the id? are you even referring to the id, or are you referring to some other variable and using imprecise terminology?
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20160815 23:41:45< aeth> one way I could handle storing units is to use many different sides (in 1.13.2+), roughly one per area
20160815 23:41:50< aeth> if they don't have to be AI sides
20160815 23:42:13< aeth> each area would be a different NPC side, which would also make them switching to hostile easy
20160815 23:42:35< aeth> although that would break the color code of light blue being friendly and red being hostile
20160815 23:43:53< celmin> I don't think such colour coding is really needed? The orbs indicate who's friendly after all.
--- Log closed Tue Aug 16 00:00:21 2016