--- Log opened Tue Aug 16 00:00:21 2016
20160816 00:03:28-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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20160816 00:16:55< backnforth> Hiya
20160816 00:17:11< backnforth> I'm trying to compile wesnoth on linux and am getitng an error
20160816 00:17:13< backnforth> anyone could possibly help me?
20160816 00:17:46< celmin> It's impossible to help with an unspecified error.
20160816 00:17:49< backnforth> i've done cmake .. in my build directory
20160816 00:17:57< backnforth> and it days my generating have been done
20160816 00:18:05< backnforth> and build files have been written
20160816 00:18:13< backnforth> but when I can a "make" in the build directory
20160816 00:18:43< backnforth> I can get an error sayin that my font::size_LARGE defined but not used  [-Werror=unused--variable]
20160816 00:18:57< backnforth> in my font.hpp file
20160816 00:19:02< celmin> Huh, amazing.
20160816 00:19:28< celmin> I have not seen anyone report such an error before.
20160816 00:19:32< backnforth> it I guess it was a recipe for target "arrow.cpp.o"
20160816 00:19:43< celmin> Even though lots of people build with -Wunused or -Werror=unused
20160816 00:20:04< celmin> Presumably you can fix the error by deleting the offending line, though.
20160816 00:20:09< backnforth> hm
20160816 00:20:17< backnforth> should I add that to cmake
20160816 00:20:18< backnforth> or make?
20160816 00:21:04< celmin> What?
20160816 00:21:14< celmin> I'm just talking about editing font.hpp.
20160816 00:21:29< celmin> Someone'll probably fix it in master at some point, too.
20160816 00:22:01< backnforth> this is in wesnoth-1.10.7
20160816 00:22:05< backnforth> it could already be fixd
20160816 00:22:17< celmin> Oh, yeah, almost certainly then.
20160816 00:22:33< celmin> Anyway, if it's truly unused, deleting it shouldn't cause any problems.
20160816 00:23:12< backnforth> ah
20160816 00:23:18< backnforth> I could the where file is located
20160816 00:23:23< backnforth> they are both mising from my src directory
20160816 00:23:29< backnforth> where they should be located
20160816 00:24:16< backnforth> found them
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20160816 00:25:25< aeth> celmin: one problem without doing color coding is that I would quickly run out of colors
20160816 00:26:14< celmin> There are more colours available than listed in the MP setup screen, I believe. That might help.
20160816 00:26:28< celmin> (I think the orb preferences has all of them.)
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20160816 01:28:13< aeth> It took longer than I expected (way too many hidden nils), but I finally have teleportation so the map is finally playable
20160816 01:29:29< aeth> One last bug (there's always another bug) and then I can playtest it. NPCs are blocking teleporters as if they're hostile.
20160816 01:31:45< aeth> As a side effect, you're almost invincible if you are rich enough to buy teleportation scrolls that will take you to a teleporter from anywhere.
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20160816 02:06:52< aeth> celmin: do you want to play a 2-3 hour test game in about 30 minutes?
20160816 02:08:05< celmin> Uhh… sure? Unless supper happens suddenly.
20160816 02:09:10< aeth> I am missing some spawns in a handful of areas (just two, actually) and the inventory is a bit incomplete (I did get to add a teleportation scroll, though, and I might add a dozen or so scrolls)
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20160816 02:10:16< aeth> and a few very remote areas of the map are undrawn/underdrawn
20160816 02:10:49< aeth> saves don't work, though, unless I do something like e.g. convert shops to WML variables or serialize them. I think only shops get blanked but I'm not sure
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20160816 02:32:44< aeth> back
20160816 02:39:14< celticminstrel> Front?
20160816 02:39:42< aeth> technically front left, front center, front right, back right, back left, subwoofer
20160816 02:39:56< aeth> I got an old set of analog surround sound for about the same price as regular speakers
20160816 02:41:32< aeth> two things are broken. remove from chest and remove from gold pile... why? idk
20160816 02:41:44< aeth> yet another useless nil error
20160816 02:42:13< aeth> so somewhere in a callstack of 14 or so a nil got introduced that shouldn't be there
20160816 02:42:36< aeth> and the error of course is at the level of the UI library I wrote where it always is, rather than where the nil got produced
20160816 02:42:45< aeth> Maybe I should handle it better in the UI part
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20160816 02:45:49< aeth> fixed the gold
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20160816 03:17:38< aeth> Aaaaaand... fixed!
20160816 03:19:27< aeth> I'm going to call the game "Aethaeryn’s Mod: An RPG with an Open World 400x200 Map (Alpha)"
20160816 03:19:41< celmin> So I should join now?
20160816 03:19:48< aeth> if you want to play still
20160816 03:20:04< aeth> It looks like I might have missed my opportunity with those two bugs that I created probably months ago and never noticed
20160816 03:20:07< aeth> the gold and chest ones
20160816 03:20:14< aeth> the server is kind of empty atm
20160816 03:20:20< aeth> Maybe someone here wants to join
20160816 03:20:37< celmin> Gasp, music.
20160816 03:20:42< aeth> Technically I need up to 4 people to join, I don't need exactly 4. e.g. multiple sides
20160816 03:21:15 * celmin pokes DeFender1031 in case he's around/interested.
20160816 03:23:43< aeth> I'm just going to do Duolingo until we have at least 3 people
20160816 03:23:46< celmin> I wonder if there's a way to register my name. Probably not, right?
20160816 03:23:52< aeth> usually if we can only get three I ask if anyone wants to also play a healer
20160816 03:23:55< aeth> celmin: register it on the forums
20160816 03:24:12< celmin> Make a second account just for that?
20160816 03:24:25< celmin> That would be weird though...
20160816 03:24:33< celmin> I guess it would work.
20160816 03:24:40< aeth> second forum account? I'm considering doing that for "Aeth" assuming someone hasn't registered it yet
20160816 03:24:47< aeth> at the very least so no one impersonates me once Wesnoth is on Steam
20160816 03:24:53< aeth> I use "Aeth" as my Steam name
20160816 03:35:16< aeth> one of the reasons I'm rushing this through is because of the Greenlight
20160816 03:35:37< aeth> it's hard to find players now but hopefully it won't later
20160816 03:36:38< celmin> Should we wait for a fourth?
20160816 03:52:20< aeth> celmin: poke
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20160816 03:56:34< aeth> celmin: poke
20160816 03:58:50< celmin> Getting 70-80 CPU usage. Might've been better upstairs though, I dunno.
20160816 04:00:03< aeth> celmin: I guess I'll have to do the progressive spawning
20160816 04:00:11< aeth> maybe there's some sort of WML/Lua bug too adding performance
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20160816 04:00:28< celmin> Keep in mind that even this computer is prety old.
20160816 04:00:31< celmin> I think 2008 or so.
20160816 04:00:37< celmin> And the desktop is even older.
20160816 04:00:41< celmin> ^pretty
20160816 04:01:13< aeth> yeah but others report around 40% or so
20160816 04:01:16< aeth> which is still too high
20160816 04:01:23< celmin> Ah.
20160816 04:10:31< aeth> celmin: poke
20160816 04:11:21< celmin> Hi
20160816 04:11:23< celmin> :P
20160816 04:11:40< celmin> Actually at first I thought you'd forgotten my alternate nick.
20160816 04:23:57< aeth> celmin: your turn again
20160816 04:24:07< celmin> I know
20160816 04:24:20< celmin> Trying to see Abdullah's range.
20160816 04:24:32< aeth> you should probably be moving turns fast because the nearest teleporter is about 10-15 turns away
20160816 04:24:59< aeth> (except for the locked one)
20160816 04:30:12< aeth> celmin: poke
20160816 04:34:32< celmin> BTW, does the party always spawn there, or was that pure chance?
20160816 04:34:40< aeth> celmin: the goblins?
20160816 04:34:46< celmin> Yeah.
20160816 04:34:58< aeth> celmin: they always spawn there for now, but it's possible that the actual starting locations could be randomized soon
20160816 04:46:41< celmin> I seem to have disconnected, aeth 
20160816 04:46:41< celmin> Is it still going?
20160816 04:46:41< aeth> yes
20160816 04:46:54< aeth> black hasn't ended turn
20160816 04:47:17< celmin> Ah, the server hasn't dropped my nick yet.
20160816 04:49:05< celmin> Wasn't there a skip replays option?
20160816 04:49:12< aeth> yes
20160816 04:49:22< celmin> Well anyway, theoretically I'm back in the game, but might have to play catch-up… :|
20160816 04:51:48< celmin> Unfortunately "Skip AI Moves" doesn't work. Probably because there's no AI.
20160816 04:52:05< celmin> Even on accelerated speed it's going surprisingly slow.
20160816 04:52:17< aeth> celmin: there's a fast replay option you could have checked iirc
20160816 04:52:18< celmin> What's going on right now?
20160816 04:52:24< celmin> Yeah, I didn't see it...
20160816 04:52:35< celmin> I thought maybe it might appear after I clicked observe, but obviously not.
20160816 04:52:36< aeth> celmin: what turn?
20160816 04:52:46< celmin> Still 1 :/
20160816 04:52:47< aeth> it's an option you check in the lobby
20160816 04:52:55< aeth> maybe leave and come back with that checked
20160816 04:53:01< celmin> Oh, good point.
20160816 04:53:30< aeth> celmin: do you mind if I play this turn?
20160816 04:53:34< celmin> Ah, it was a dropdown, I was expecting a checkbox.
20160816 04:53:42< aeth> it was a checkbox
20160816 04:53:44< aeth> it must have changed
20160816 04:53:52< aeth> celmin: do you want me to head outside?
20160816 04:53:56< celmin> I should be in now...
20160816 04:54:04< aeth> I'll give you control when you catch up
20160816 04:54:13< aeth> I don't want the others quitting
20160816 04:54:15< aeth> that will end the game
20160816 04:54:20< aeth> where do you want me to send your units?
20160816 04:54:27< celmin> Heading outside seems fine.
20160816 04:54:27< aeth> all you missed is goblin infighting to stall for time
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20160816 04:55:04< celmin> Aw.
20160816 04:55:11< celmin> Well, I can see the replay later, right?
20160816 04:55:16< aeth> yes
20160816 04:55:20< celmin> It's downloadable from somewhere.
20160816 04:55:29< aeth> iirc any save is a replay
20160816 04:55:34< aeth> so if you save at the end...
20160816 04:56:13< aeth> celmin: basically Rok is blaming another goblin called Bunak
20160816 04:56:15< celmin> Ugh, this doesn't seem to be working...
20160816 04:56:16< aeth> and there's infighting
20160816 04:56:20< celmin> I'm still on turn 1. :(
20160816 04:56:30< aeth> which side turn?
20160816 04:56:36< celmin> Oh, 2 now, so at least it's faster.
20160816 04:57:13< celmin> What turn are you at?
20160816 04:57:44< aeth> 9
20160816 04:57:47< aeth> not far
20160816 04:59:38< aeth> celmin: what turn now?
20160816 04:59:56< aeth> celmin: btw thanks for this test, apparently I *really* need to prioritize zone spawning
20160816 05:00:02< aeth> I didn't know that until now
20160816 05:00:09< celmin> 7 now
20160816 05:00:43< celmin> 8
20160816 05:03:05< celmin> Still 8
20160816 05:04:27< aeth> we're on the start of turn 10
20160816 05:04:57< celmin> I seriously didn't see any skip replay option in the lobby.
20160816 05:05:07< aeth> it's fast replay iirc
20160816 05:05:08< aeth> anyway
20160816 05:05:11< aeth> celmin: what turn?
20160816 05:05:19< celmin> Still 8, but white
20160816 05:05:19< aeth> you can't skip replay
20160816 05:05:24< aeth> the way Wesnoth works is it syncs
20160816 05:06:04< celmin> But it could at least run headless until you catch up. :/
20160816 05:06:07< aeth> yeah
20160816 05:06:13< aeth> I've handed back control since you're almost caught up
20160816 05:06:21< celmin> 9 now
20160816 05:07:18< aeth> celmin: so the goblin you bribed didn't come up with a clever plan. he offended another goblin, Bunak, and they started infighting.
20160816 05:07:33< aeth> Fairly evenly matched infighting, but now Vragor has caught up to them and he'll have to retreat
20160816 05:07:48< aeth> Vragor has lost your trial but the goblin deserters are closer and will lead them to your group
20160816 05:08:30< celmin> Turn 10 now, red
20160816 05:08:39< aeth> turn 10 blue is where we are
20160816 05:13:44< aeth> celmin: I would just move until you can get to the village, to heal the healer
20160816 05:14:15< celmin> I don't know why my trackpad doesn't work. :/
20160816 05:15:49< celmin> Or rather, is being flaky.
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20160816 05:19:34< aeth> ancestral: hi
20160816 05:19:38< aeth> ancestral: do you want to observe the game?
20160816 05:19:44< ancestral> Hi
20160816 05:19:48< ancestral> Not right now, not enough time
20160816 05:26:10< celmin> Tried fullscreening, not sure if it helped, but since I can't seem to switch away, I put it back in a window.
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20160816 05:33:29< aeth> celmin: still there?
20160816 05:33:32< aeth> it's been a while
20160816 05:33:39< celmin> Still here.
20160816 05:34:04< celmin> Why?
20160816 05:34:14< aeth> just checking because you did drop your connection once
20160816 05:34:18< aeth> it's your turn again
20160816 05:34:19< celmin> Ah.
20160816 05:34:21< celmin> ...
20160816 05:34:28< aeth> looks like you moved though
20160816 05:34:30< aeth> so you know
20160816 05:34:38< celmin> Huh? I didn't move.
20160816 05:34:41< aeth> or not, strange interface glitch
20160816 05:34:48< celmin> Just got to my turn now.
20160816 05:34:58< celmin> And Wesnoth is not responding, so I need to w— ah there we go.
20160816 05:44:58< celmin> I got "Error, can't get that upgrade right now"
20160816 05:48:17< aeth> yes, I need to make the errors local to players
20160816 05:48:19< aeth> I know that bug now
20160816 05:48:52< celmin> What were you trying, BTW? Double MP or something?
20160816 05:50:27< aeth> possibly
20160816 05:50:38< aeth> lots of tweaks could be done based on playtests
20160816 06:01:13< celmin> Can you set time areas on the fly?
20160816 06:01:32< celmin> I suppose lightray terrain would work if nothing else...
20160816 06:01:50< aeth> I'm not sure
20160816 06:08:02< celmin> I guess lightray overlay doesn't work on forest though.
20160816 06:08:46< aeth> it wouldn't
20160816 06:08:55< aeth> it's a ^foo like trees
20160816 06:09:15< celmin> Yeah exactly
20160816 06:12:07< celmin> What's going on right now...
20160816 06:13:05< celmin> Wesnoth is using practically all the CPU now, actually.
20160816 06:13:23< celmin> Oh, finally updating again,
20160816 06:15:29< celmin> Anyway, I was just thinking it'd be cool if the flare could be represented by actual illuminates mechanics. :P
20160816 06:16:47< celmin> (And I got around the trackpad right-click issue by assigning a hotkey to Unit Commands.)
20160816 06:17:16< aeth> ah that's what I forgot to do before the next playtests
20160816 06:17:17< aeth> hotkeys
20160816 06:17:24< celmin> Like defaults?
20160816 06:20:17< aeth> celmin: you were lagging, your messages were in green instead of blue
20160816 06:20:20< aeth> I'm glad you had two sides
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20160816 06:24:15< TheCreatorT> wow
20160816 06:24:22< TheCreatorT> all these people on wesnoth?
20160816 06:24:22< celmin> Hi
20160816 06:24:26< aeth> hi
20160816 06:24:35< celmin> A lot of people just lurk and never speak.
20160816 06:24:42< TheCreatorT> i was about to say
20160816 06:24:48< aeth> IRC, especially Freenode IRC, has a lot of lurkers/idlers
20160816 06:25:04< aeth> Some (programming) channels have hundreds/thousands with maybe a dozen or two regulars
20160816 06:30:41< TheCreatorT> right
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20160816 06:43:52< Glen_> Hi. I'm currently trying to port a really old Campaign from 1.4 called Invasion of Eliador, it uses many macros that do not work are not included in the utility macro references page so I assume they are all deprecated.
20160816 06:44:29< Glen_> Is there a page listing all of these deprecated macros that worked in 1.4?
20160816 06:45:46< vultraz> there is not, sadly
20160816 06:46:07< celmin> You can probably find it at github.
20160816 06:46:25< aeth> you could look at the history pages of the wiki
20160816 06:46:28< aeth> to see what got removed
20160816 06:46:32< celmin> Something like, uhh, https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/tree/1.4/data/core/macros/
20160816 06:46:37< celmin> Not sure if that link is valid.
20160816 06:46:53< celmin> But if not there should be a similar valid link.
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20160816 07:34:01< DeFender1031> aww man, i missed aeth's playtest!
20160816 07:34:11< celmin> Did I disconnect yet?
20160816 07:34:19< aeth> yes
20160816 07:34:22< aeth> DeFender1031: technically
20160816 07:34:23< celmin> Pretty sure I hit Cmd+Q, but it's still there.
20160816 07:34:40< aeth> DeFender1031: technically you could take over as host if everyone leaves
20160816 07:34:45< aeth> and you're in the game
20160816 07:34:47< celmin> DeFender1031: You could probably connect and watch the replay if you want.
20160816 07:47:14< DeFender1031> eh, replay isn't as fun as actually seeing it live.
20160816 07:47:21< DeFender1031> (or participating live)
20160816 07:47:34< celmin> True
20160816 07:49:14< aeth> DeFender1031: you could always pull the game off of github
20160816 07:49:28< aeth> https://github.com/Aethaeryn/wesnoth-umc/tree/master/Aethaeryns_Mod
20160816 07:49:56< aeth> the readme does a decent job explaining it
20160816 07:50:04< aeth> might be out of date
20160816 07:50:13< DeFender1031> btw, speaking of hotkeys, aeth, i had an idea that you might want to add a "repeat last action" command+hotkey for the host, so that if you're, say, turning a bunch of goblins into undead, or changing a bunch of terrain to water because there's a flood, or something like that, that you'd only have to go through the menus once, and then you'd just hit one key for each one after that that you do.
20160816 07:50:30< aeth> I have repeat last terrain as a menu option, but not a hotkey
20160816 07:50:43< celmin> I think if it's a meny action you can assign a hotkey in prefs
20160816 07:50:47< celmin> ^menu
20160816 07:50:58< celmin> (Which is actually a bit weird, but whatever)
20160816 07:51:12< aeth> I don't have many menu actions
20160816 07:51:21< aeth> as in [set_menu_item]
20160816 07:52:02< celmin> Oh, you mean an option within your GUI2 menus.
20160816 07:52:05< aeth> yes
20160816 07:52:17< celmin> I think that one'd be worth putting as a [set_menu_item] though.
20160816 07:52:19< aeth> because you quickly run out of menu items
20160816 07:52:28< aeth> not really, terrain editing is rarely done
20160816 07:52:33< aeth> plus, it's spam RET
20160816 07:52:39< aeth> repeat is the top option in the terrain menu
20160816 07:52:47< aeth> so let's say terrain is t
20160816 07:52:52< aeth> repeat would be t RET
20160816 07:52:59< DeFender1031> ah
20160816 07:53:04< celmin> I ess
20160816 07:53:05< DeFender1031> i suppose that works
20160816 07:53:06< celmin> ^see
20160816 07:53:16< aeth> too bad the arrow keys don't work for menu navigation in 1.12 (I think it's fixed in 1.13? not sure if I have the right conditionals for it)
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20160816 07:53:40< aeth> anyway, I don't want a crowded [set_menu_item]
20160816 07:53:45< aeth> the host gets tons of those already
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20160816 17:00:26< nnarol> Hi! It was only now that I saw on Google that Wesnoth has been greenlit on Steam.
20160816 17:00:39< celmin> On Google?
20160816 17:00:40< nnarol> I just came here to congratulate you from the bottom of my hearth!
20160816 17:00:50< nnarol> celmin: cmon...
20160816 17:00:51< celmin> Hearth? Not heart?
20160816 17:01:05< celmin> No, I'm just surprised that that's where you found out.
20160816 17:01:06< nnarol> yes, yes, that.
20160816 17:01:18< celmin> Rather than from the forums or something.
20160816 17:01:32< celmin> Or twitter or something.
20160816 17:01:42< nnarol> Well, this is how it happened anyway.
20160816 17:01:48< celmin> I guess it doesn't matter.
20160816 17:01:50< nnarol> So all the best and take care!
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20160816 17:02:04< celmin> Well, that was short.
20160816 17:04:55< DeFender1031> It's weird that {AMLA_DEFAULT} is not actually the default behavior when no advances_to= is set and no [advancement] tags are present. Took me a while to realize why my max-level custom units still had blue exp bars and were just continuing to accumulate xp beyond the stated limit.
20160816 17:05:36< celmin> It's not the default even when advances_to is not set.
20160816 17:05:53< DeFender1031> i know.
20160816 17:05:53< celmin> Oh wait, I missed your "no" there.
20160816 17:06:00< DeFender1031> ah
20160816 17:06:07< celmin> Anyway, if it were the default, how would you specify otherwise?
20160816 17:06:25< celmin> In particular, how would you specify a lack of any advancements at all?
20160816 17:06:46< DeFender1031> is there such a thing?
20160816 17:06:53< DeFender1031> XP has to go somewhere
20160816 17:07:07< DeFender1031> or rather
20160816 17:07:51< celmin> I think there's such a thing, though I suppose you could argue that there shouldn't be.
20160816 17:09:54< DeFender1031> I'd expect that if an experience amount is set, and there's no advance_to or [advancement] tags, this would be the default behavior. If no experience amount is set, then there'd be no advancement at all, and the xp would be lost on that unit (because why set an experience amount if it's not actually going to do anything when that amount is reached?).
20160816 17:10:16< celmin> With the current framework I think it's impossible to actually set a default AMLA.
20160816 17:10:31< DeFender1031> you mean internally to the code?
20160816 17:10:50< celmin> It's because the AMLA is actually a somewhat large block of WML code.
20160816 17:11:06< DeFender1031> i'm aware.
20160816 17:11:19< DeFender1031> i don't see why the C++ couldn't make that the default when nothing else is specified
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20160816 17:11:40< celmin> Well, it could, by hardcoding the WML into the code.
20160816 17:11:46< celmin> That's probably the only way.
20160816 17:11:52< celmin> I want to do something to allow it to look up AMLAs in a database of sorts, rather than repeating its code in every unit that supports it.
20160816 17:12:02< celmin> (And also abilities, weapon specials, traits.)
20160816 17:12:19< celmin> Already did it with traits (on a branch), but hit a block on abilities.
20160816 17:13:10< DeFender1031> well, i'd suggest it be some sort of copy-on-write structure or something, as you CAN modify them on units on the fly with the current system, which would be impossible if it were centralized like you say
20160816 17:13:19< celmin> Cows, huh.
20160816 17:13:24< DeFender1031> cows?
20160816 17:13:31< DeFender1031> moo?
20160816 17:13:47< celmin> Heh, just being silly because you mentioned copy-on-write.
20160816 17:14:02< celmin> Which as an initialism is COW
20160816 17:14:14< celmin> Or acronym, whatever
20160816 17:14:24< DeFender1031> ah
20160816 17:14:42< celmin> The block was related to the juxtaposition of the current system and the centralized system, actually.
20160816 17:14:43< DeFender1031> i'm going to start using "COWS" as an acronym for it at work!
20160816 17:15:11< DeFender1031> (my boss uses "cows" and "sheep" for any example "foo/bar" style code)
20160816 17:15:19< DeFender1031> (so i think he'll get a kick out of it.)
20160816 17:15:40< celmin> Hmm, maybe what I should do then is define some sort of unit_ability class.
20160816 17:15:44< DeFender1031> celmin, right, i'd imagine that would be a block.
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20160816 17:16:25< celmin> The problem is that you can put [abilities] in [unit] (it's undocumented, but I suspect it matters for saved games).
20160816 17:16:34< celmin> Also, modifications were a point of trouble.
20160816 17:16:43< celmin> Because I was trying to just store references to the abilities.
20160816 17:16:55< celmin> Copy-on-write is not a bad idea though.
20160816 17:17:27< DeFender1031> you could also come up with some shorthand wml for saves and such that means "reference the original" and retain the current syntax for something which has been modified.
20160816 17:17:37< celmin> Better than copying all the abilities from the beginning.
20160816 17:17:58< DeFender1031> (basically, carry over the COW-semantics into saving and loading)
20160816 17:18:00< celmin> I want to make saved games only include the details that differ from the "prototype+modifications".
20160816 17:18:23< DeFender1031> Actually, I'd imagine that doing this might improve aeth's performance issues substantially.
20160816 17:18:30< celmin> Where the prototype is the unit type with variations applied.
20160816 17:18:43< DeFender1031> celmin, that's actually an even more efficient approach
20160816 17:19:00< DeFender1031> store some kind of diff format between the original declaration and the unit's specific changes.
20160816 17:19:03< celmin> Basically, the idea is to construct the "prototype", compare it to the existing unit, and only save the differences.
20160816 17:19:05< DeFender1031> actually...
20160816 17:19:10< DeFender1031> why not do that in memory too?
20160816 17:19:26< celmin> It's harder in memory, but probably a good idea, yes...
20160816 17:19:38< DeFender1031> instead of COW, you could have some kind of modification structure with a pointer to the original and then properties for what's been changes
20160816 17:19:51< DeFender1031> changed*
20160816 17:19:58< zookeeper> celmin, well that's what i've always hoped we could get. but if you'd do that, then that ability thing you're working on would be redundant.
20160816 17:20:25< celmin> I disagree, since the ability thing eliminates a lot of macros.
20160816 17:20:43< DeFender1031> what "ability thing" is being referred to here?
20160816 17:20:46< celmin> But you're right that it wouldn't affect save file size.
20160816 17:21:04< zookeeper> we'd still have the macros, their contents would just become rather minimal...
20160816 17:21:05< celmin> DeFender1031: The centralized approach I mentioned earlier
20160816 17:21:09< DeFender1031> ah
20160816 17:21:21< celmin> zookeeper: We'd have them for legacy purposes only.
20160816 17:21:54< DeFender1031> well, i actually think it'd be a good idea to have ability defaults as a central, top-level set of stuff, and then those can be referenced in unit types and units, rather than having to re-include the entire definition everywhere
20160816 17:22:09< celmin> It's also better for the help topic generators
20160816 17:22:16< DeFender1031> also, i'd suggest that the wml for defining a diff from the base could be used there
20160816 17:22:26< celmin> Where?
20160816 17:22:48< DeFender1031> so you'd define a central ambush ability, and then on a unit, you could, say, include some wml saying "include this ability and also add this other terrain type to it" or whatever.
20160816 17:23:13< zookeeper> what's this "less macros is automatically good" thing anyway? it's like people think the preprocessor is evil and that every use of macros is some kind of ugly hack.
20160816 17:24:06< DeFender1031> zookeeper, is it not a fair assumption that in 99% of cases, it's more efficient if something is in one place than having to parse and run it hundreds of separate times?
20160816 17:24:39< zookeeper> i don't know, i don't see how that's relevant
20160816 17:25:17< DeFender1031> macros are, by definition, being reparsed and rerun every time they're included. if something is centralized and not using macros, that's not the case.
20160816 17:25:40< DeFender1031> especially here, where every unit type and individual unit ends up having to carry around the same code.
20160816 17:26:00< celmin> And race, in the case of traits.
20160816 17:26:44< celmin> Instead of [abilities]blah blah blah you do abilities=ambush,extra_heal or whatever
20160816 17:27:10< celmin> But I hadn't thought of a way of taking an ability and modding it.
20160816 17:27:22< celmin> It's an interesting idea.
20160816 17:27:44< zookeeper> do we have some reason to assume that making abilities/traits not use macros does make the game load faster?
20160816 17:28:07< celmin> Not sure.
20160816 17:28:27< zookeeper> i mean, measurably faster
20160816 17:28:56< celmin> I'm not sure what (if any) performance hit comes from extensive macro substitution.
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20160816 17:33:53< zookeeper> as i've said before, i'm fine with abilities/traits/etc becoming just simple references to top-level definitions instead of their WML living in single units as long as existing code doesn't break.
20160816 17:33:59< zookeeper> but if you're going to pursue store-only-differences-from-unit-type for single units anyway, then the only benefit of that ability refactor is going to be possibly unmeasurable performance increase, and thus counterproductive for everyone.
20160816 17:34:13< zookeeper> so i'd definitely suggest first investigating the former and seeing if it's actually doable
20160816 17:34:45< zookeeper> because if it is then that's wonderful and savefiles shrink massively
20160816 17:40:51< zookeeper> however, i seem to recall that other people have looked into it in the past. one major problem would presumably be how direct variable read access from stored units would work.
20160816 17:41:30< zookeeper> although the obvious solution would seem to be to store all unit data in that case, so maybe that's not a problem after all.
20160816 17:43:31< celmin> Help topics too
20160816 17:44:18< celmin> At the moment, abilities or specials that belong to no unit type never get a help topic.
20160816 17:46:12< zookeeper> well sure, but that's a non-issue because it's trivial to fix
20160816 17:46:38< celmin> I don't consider "including them in a dummy unit type" to be a fix.
20160816 17:47:01< zookeeper> surely if it fixes a problem, it's a fix
20160816 17:47:07< zookeeper> that's what the word means :p
20160816 17:47:13< celmin> It's a workaround
20160816 17:47:29< zookeeper> of course it is
20160816 17:49:07< zookeeper> that's what data files are, workarounds in order to have things the engine doesn't do automatically :]
20160816 17:49:17< celmin> Not really
20160816 17:51:16< zookeeper> well, regardless, that's a dubious benefit considering that it was only recently that someone broke the help topic thing
20160816 17:51:46< celmin> No, that was traits.
20160816 17:51:56< celmin> The case with abilities affects 1.12.
20160816 17:51:58< zookeeper> ah, true
20160816 17:52:03< zookeeper> okay, fair enough then
20160816 17:52:39< celmin> I'm not sure how common a case is (I don't know of uses in mainline), but my campaign has abilities and specials that are added only via [object], and they don't get a help topic.
20160816 17:53:23< zookeeper> might be rather common in some RPGs and such
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20160816 17:53:45< celmin> Might be.
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20160816 17:58:16< zookeeper> then again, i doubt any player of a conquestsurvivaldungeonshopsxtreme goes to the help to look for ability descriptions
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20160816 18:14:49< aeth> I don't recruit units in my scenario. To double MP I would just have to double it on spawn and on upgrade, right?
20160816 18:18:49< celmin> If you use [object] you don't even need to worry about upgrade
20160816 18:18:56< celmin> Otherwise, yes.
20160816 18:19:26< aeth> celmin: I'm not sure the performance implications of giving every unit an [object]
20160816 18:19:32< aeth> when the upper bound is probably 2000 or more
20160816 18:20:20< aeth> besides since I already spawn units it's just a matter of unit_stats.max_moves = wesnoth.unit_types[unit_type].max_moves * 2
20160816 18:20:28< aeth> the only complication is upgrades, which I need to handle anyway
20160816 18:20:32< celmin> I suppose there could be some performance implications when applying it to thousands of units at once…
20160816 18:21:09< aeth> they're spawned through a Lua function, they're not spawned through the WML macro and then looped over in Lua or WML
20160816 18:21:20< aeth> So I already do fancy things on spawn... the first was probably 0 upkeep
20160816 18:21:23< aeth> I used to force loyal
20160816 18:21:31< aeth> now they can get full traits
20160816 18:21:48< celmin> WML macro?
20160816 18:22:02< aeth> there's a WML macro to place units, isn't there?
20160816 18:22:05< celmin> You can add modifications at spawn time though.
20160816 18:22:12< celmin> I guess there is, I don't really use it.
20160816 18:22:26< celmin> T.modifications{ T.object{ whatever }}
20160816 18:22:27< aeth> I can add WML modifications at spawn time, or I can do it all in Lua and use one spawn function for all of the different spawn cases
20160816 18:22:46< aeth> map spawns, bosses, unit character selection (iirc), summons, etc.
20160816 18:23:14< aeth> hmm, it's actually *not* used for character selection
20160816 18:23:29< aeth> oh because that uses change_unit.transform probably
20160816 18:24:50< zookeeper> aeth, personally i'd not rely on modifying unit.max_moves directly, especially when you're most likely doing all sorts of other manipulation of units which could trigger directvariablemanipulation-destroying transformations.
20160816 18:25:04< celmin> I just mean that giving modifications in create_unit should work.
20160816 18:25:18< aeth> well I modify it in put_unit atm
20160816 18:25:26< aeth> the third parameter in wesnoth.put_unit
20160816 18:25:26< celmin> Or put_unit
20160816 18:25:35< aeth> not quite sure how I'd modify it in transform_unit though
20160816 18:26:01< celmin> Still, not really hard to do it the other way either, I guess
20160816 18:27:57< aeth> hmm, as I suspected, spawned units will lose the double mp on promotion
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20160816 18:36:47< aeth> an [object] might be better, actually. MP doubling doesn't seem to interact with quick/slow well
20160816 18:37:34< aeth> it fails both ways. if based on unit data in general, it ignores quick/slow. if based on current stats, it doubles the effect of quick/slow to be 2 MP instead of 1 MP
20160816 18:38:29< celmin> If the [object] is added at creation time, it should be applied before the traits, I think.
20160816 18:38:57< aeth> and I won't have to worry about transforming, either, because every unit will be added through the spawning Lua function or be a leader on from start
20160816 18:50:23< aeth> ok, [object] with an increase of 100% works when the unit's max_moves changes on promotion, e.g. elvish scout to elvish rider
20160816 18:50:26< aeth> now time to test quick and slow
20160816 18:50:52< aeth> celmin: it looks like the [object] is applied after the trait so slow units have -2 MP
20160816 18:51:11< aeth> which I guess is fair, but it will make the help/descriptions inaccurate
20160816 18:52:26< aeth> *unlike* modifying it via WML, though, it will not set moves to max moves because it's after it's already placed
20160816 18:52:38< aeth> So basically there's 10 ways to do everything and they all have different edge cases
20160816 18:54:04< aeth> at least it will consistantly apply it after quick/slow and so 8 MP stays at 8 MP on promotion for a slow goblin etc
20160816 18:54:59< aeth> and a quick peasant stays 12 MP when spearman
20160816 18:56:29< aeth> celmin, zookeeper: Do you think I should use [object]s via add_modification for all possible upgrades/etc. in my Lua so it persists on upgrade?
20160816 18:56:54< aeth> Or is there going to be an issue with e.g. some unit having 40 +3 HP [object]s applied over time?
20160816 18:57:06< aeth> since I could just do a unit variable that's checked on upgrade or something to see how many to add to base
20160816 18:57:28< zookeeper> i'd expect it to persist just as well as actually using [object] would. dunno.
20160816 18:59:36< aeth> right now the only upgrades I have planned are MP (with a cap), hitpoints (probably no cap), and xp to next advancement (probably needs a cap to prevent 0/1 xp near-invincibilities)
20160816 18:59:42< celmin> Maybe it applies all traits, then all objects.
20160816 18:59:48< aeth> I know now that MP won't persist without an object
20160816 19:00:26< aeth> right now looking at some of my oldest code, I at least attempt to reapply all upgrades on promotion
20160816 19:01:01< zookeeper> you should be able to fix whatever problem you have with quick/slow units by having two versions of the object, one for units with one of those traits and one without.
20160816 19:01:34< aeth> zookeeper: I might want to keep the quick/slow doing 2 MP boost, though, since otherwise it's effectively a nerf to quick
20160816 19:04:50< aeth> hmm, sort of related to the mp boost... certain units like gryphon master might impact my ability to do progressive spawning of units
20160816 19:05:34< celmin> Why?
20160816 19:05:35< aeth> a gryphon master can cover basically the entire outside in 8 turns starting from the center, and most playtests do seem to last at least 20
20160816 19:05:44< aeth> 20 MP
20160816 19:05:44< celmin> Eh?
20160816 19:06:00< DeFender1031> yeah, i don't follow either
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20160816 19:06:42< aeth> DeFender1031: in less than the typical length of a game on the map, you'd be able to spawn nearly every unit if you picked e.g. gryphon rider as your starting unit. only 16 MP for him though
20160816 19:07:54< DeFender1031> i'm not following why the amount of MP affects what can spawn?
20160816 19:08:05< aeth> DeFender1031: if I spawn based on presence in a region
20160816 19:08:15< DeFender1031> oh
20160816 19:08:33< DeFender1031> i didn't realize you were actually doing that
20160816 19:08:55< aeth> I already have almost every unit sorted by region, I just need to refactor it a bit, e.g. the main pain point is the peasants aren't because I spawned the peasants first
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20160816 19:09:09< aeth> so spawning by region is very easy, especially if I in early tests make the host do it
20160816 19:09:12< aeth> (manually)
20160816 19:09:16< DeFender1031> though, i suggested a different approach where the area's units don't automatically spawn, the DM would manually use some menu item to spawn/store an area's population
20160816 19:09:22< aeth> unspawning/respawning is harder
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20160816 19:09:46< aeth> I have a spawn_starting_units() or something, and in that the units are sorted by region with the regions commented (mostly)
20160816 19:10:03< aeth> all I need to do is basically turn those comment-separated sections into functions and add a GUI element for it
20160816 19:10:03< DeFender1031> ah
20160816 19:10:06< aeth> and I have the spawning
20160816 19:10:16< aeth> so I'll probably do the spawning before the next test since it requires almost no new code
20160816 19:10:45< DeFender1031> nice
20160816 19:11:23< DeFender1031> btw, I had an idea for your "volcanoes are the only way to make large mountains reliably" issue.
20160816 19:11:37< DeFender1031> (in a way that would still not require download)
20160816 19:11:41< aeth> well, I worked around it on a lot of maps. the problem is when I merged the maps together, and shifted it
20160816 19:11:47< DeFender1031> i know
20160816 19:11:58< aeth> so you see volcanos mostly in maps that I merged rather than areas I drew once I was at the 400x200
20160816 19:12:05< aeth> except for purposeful volcanos in the drake area
20160816 19:12:23< aeth> *volcanoes
20160816 19:12:27< aeth> I could have sworn both spellings were valid
20160816 19:12:36< aeth> maybe it's just a common typo
20160816 19:12:58< DeFender1031> my idea would be that you put an impassable overlay on top of the volcano hex, and then define a set of terrain graphics inside the scenario itself that would turn any volcano with the overlay which has three mountain bits in front of it into the proper mountain graphic instead of the volcano one.
20160816 19:13:20< celmin> Wiktionary agrees that both are valid.
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20160816 19:13:55< aeth> DeFender1031: another thing I could do is patch 1.13 to make impassable mountains behave like volcanos, where it'll produce a large mountain
20160816 19:14:03< aeth> i.e. an impassable mountain is probably going to try to be a peak
20160816 19:14:17< aeth> not quite equivalent, but it would work on my map since I'm not micro-balancing areas and going more for theme
20160816 19:14:20< DeFender1031> you could, but that won't help for 1.12 right now.
20160816 19:14:24< aeth> for most units, impassable mountain and volcano are equivalent
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20160816 19:14:30< aeth> how much time does 1.12 have left anyway?
20160816 19:14:31< DeFender1031> true
20160816 19:14:32< aeth> it's been out for a while
20160816 19:14:36< DeFender1031> no idea.
20160816 19:14:46< DeFender1031> i keep hearing that 1.14 is nowhere near ready
20160816 19:14:57< zookeeper> yeah it's not
20160816 19:15:04< zookeeper> although how many months that means, no one knows
20160816 19:15:29< DeFender1031> oh, and i menat unwalkable overlay, I.E. the same terrain that the volcano peak already is.
20160816 19:17:51< aeth> I wonder if there's time to sneak in a better UI before 1.14
20160816 19:18:05< aeth> I think I have gotten some minor improvements passed because of my add-on
20160816 19:18:13< aeth> but GUI2 falls far short of convenient for what I do
20160816 19:18:23< celmin> If you mean a whole new framework, probably not. If you mean better Lua API, maybe,
20160816 19:18:45< DeFender1031> please expose the unit preview pane to lua.
20160816 19:18:58< celmin> Yes, I've been thinking about that for awhile now.
20160816 19:19:04< aeth> that would be nice, instead of having a half-implemented, uglier, less featureful unit preview pane
20160816 19:19:21< aeth> I think everyone reinvents that one if they do fancy enough stuff
20160816 19:19:37< aeth> and they were doing that in WML long before Lua was even added
20160816 19:19:42< aeth> for e.g. Blueblaze's stuff
20160816 19:19:46< aeth> and A New Land
20160816 19:20:00< celmin> Huh? How could they do it in WML?
20160816 19:20:05< aeth> although sometimes stats/costs change (including in mine now, where MP is doubled)
20160816 19:20:18< aeth> celmin: you would just make a row contain the unit image and stats
20160816 19:20:30< celmin> In [message]?
20160816 19:20:33< aeth> so there was no sidebar pane, it all had to be in the message option
20160816 19:20:35< aeth> yes
20160816 19:20:38< aeth> much more cluttered
20160816 19:20:58< aeth> and iirc you had to hand code it so e.g. if mainline stuff changed the add-on's stuff wouldn't
20160816 19:21:04< aeth> including portrait paths
20160816 19:21:09< aeth> s/portrait paths/unit paths/
20160816 19:21:15< aeth> s/unit paths/unit image paths/
20160816 19:21:36< aeth> I think A New Land in mainline still does it, although limited
20160816 19:22:22< aeth> oh no, it just unlocks recruits
20160816 19:22:37< aeth> I think only Blueblaze and I had add-ons where you recruited from village, then.
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20160816 19:23:20< aeth> Stuff like this: {AETH_OPTION (Dwarvish Fighter) 16 ("&"+"units/dwarves/fighter.png~RC(magenta>red)"+"="+"Dwarvish Fighter - 16 Gold")}
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20160816 19:23:58< celmin> AETH_OPTION?
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20160816 19:24:30< aeth> quite a large macro, actually
20160816 19:24:54< aeth> the relevant part is that it copies the right part of the recruit screen, but in one line, and without the side pane. I could have also included e.g. some of the stats from the side pane too
20160816 19:25:01< aeth> of course everything there was maintained by hand so I personally didn't
20160816 19:28:41< aeth> bob had/has much more complex [option] stuff, but I guess not to literally recreate recruitment
20160816 19:28:49< aeth> maybe in The High Seas he did that
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 17 00:00:44 2016