--- Log opened Mon Aug 29 00:00:43 2016
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20160829 13:16:26< mattsc> Hey.
20160829 13:16:43< mattsc> I have a couple quick questions for when you’ve time.  No rush.
20160829 13:16:56< mattsc> whoops — wrong channel, sorry
20160829 13:25:59< DeFender1031> mattsc, I have a bizarre deja-vu of you having done exactly this before, word for word.
20160829 13:26:29< mattsc> DeFender1031: I must be getting old ...
20160829 13:26:55< DeFender1031> Either that, or my brain is being strange.
20160829 13:28:26< DeFender1031> well, i can't find a previous instance in my logs, so I'm going to go with it's my own brain.
20160829 13:29:03< DeFender1031> oh, mattsc, you sort of know lua stuff sort of.
20160829 13:29:31< mattsc> emphasis on the sort of ...
20160829 13:30:00< DeFender1031> i encountered something weird about strings pulled out of game data which i asked here last week and no one had a good answer for me
20160829 13:31:59< DeFender1031> mattsc, http://paste.nachsoftware.com/DeFender1031/mPZCxa08d432b6a642ff22a0057c4394537cc7zl
20160829 13:32:34< DeFender1031> those are the relevant excerpts from the chat. I know it's a long shot, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask if you know
20160829 13:32:52< mattsc> reading ...
20160829 13:35:51< mattsc> DeFender1031: I don’t know the answer, but let me try something
20160829 13:36:55< DeFender1031> mattsc, an example of a string function that it doesn't work with is string.sub()
20160829 13:37:41 * DeFender1031 is super-curious to know what mattsc is trying.
20160829 13:37:49< mattsc> Was celticminstrel around at the time?  He knows these things much better than I.
20160829 13:42:46< mattsc> DeFender1031: just trying some things in my AI test scenario (where I have a right-click option to execute Lua code)
20160829 13:42:50< DeFender1031> didn't seem to be... he's usually pretty active if someone asks something here that he knows about
20160829 13:43:00< DeFender1031> ah
20160829 13:43:22< mattsc> So first, if I use a scalar translatable string variable, the returned type is string.
20160829 13:43:34< celticminstrel> Huh?
20160829 13:44:04< celticminstrel> Oh, translatable strings are userdata.
20160829 13:44:17< celticminstrel> You can use tostring() to convert them.
20160829 13:44:27< DeFender1031> ah
20160829 13:44:46< DeFender1031> strange that lua string functions and concatenation don't call that automatically
20160829 13:45:00< celticminstrel> I dunno if that's really that strange.
20160829 13:45:13< celticminstrel> Concatenation is specifically overloaded for translatable strings.
20160829 13:45:18< mattsc> DeFender1031: there’s your answer: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/lua/helper.lua#L254
20160829 13:45:19< DeFender1031> ah
20160829 13:45:26< celticminstrel> That is, the translatable string metatable includes __concat or whatever.
20160829 13:45:51< DeFender1031> ah
20160829 13:45:59< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, tostring is a global function?
20160829 13:46:05< celticminstrel> Yes.
20160829 13:46:17< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, native to lua or special to wesnoth?
20160829 13:46:24< celticminstrel> Former
20160829 13:46:38< DeFender1031> okay
20160829 13:46:40< DeFender1031> thanks
20160829 13:47:03< celticminstrel> [Aug 29@09:43:22am] mattsc: So first, if I use a scalar translatable string variable, the returned type is string.
20160829 13:47:04< celticminstrel> What do you mean here?
20160829 13:48:14< mattsc> if I set up xxx = _”something” (using not that syntax, but [set_variable], of course), wesnoth.get_variable returns a value of type string
20160829 13:48:44< mattsc> no, it doesn’t, sorry ...
20160829 13:49:04< mattsc> ugh, I should stop typing here and wake up first
20160829 13:49:27< mattsc> I tricked myself by trying to be smart  :P
20160829 13:49:34< celticminstrel> I see.
20160829 13:49:40< celticminstrel> (Not really. :P )
20160829 13:50:15< mattsc> The details don’t matter and would be too embarrassing anyway.
20160829 13:50:33< mattsc> DeFender1031: I can confirm that tostring() works and turns the userdata into a string.
20160829 13:50:50< mattsc> And yes, in principle I actually knew this.  I’ll blame this on my age (or not being awake) as well.
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20160829 13:59:50< DeFender1031> mattsc, Re: "I tricked myself by trying to be smart", I've done similar things. Just last week I was testing whether circular references in php destruct where and when they should, and told my boss that it looked like they'd finally fixed that issue, only to discover that i'd forgotten the line of code which actually assigned the reciprocating reference... I'm pretty sure this kind of stuff happens to all of us.
20160829 14:01:27< mattsc> DeFender1031: Yeah, I am certainly good at doing that sort of thing.
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20160829 18:33:41< DeFender1031> Am I the only one who thinks lua is a pretty terrible language?
20160829 18:34:00< celticminstrel> What's terrible about it?
20160829 18:34:37< DeFender1031> oh dear... i should have expected that question and written up a four-page response before writing my first line.
20160829 18:34:48< DeFender1031> aaaaand, i'm being called away for a bit.
20160829 18:34:53< DeFender1031> i'll explain later.
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20160829 19:32:53< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, my reasoning amounts mostly to "it's clunky and unintuitive, with javascript-like semantics without javascript-like simplicity, and it's very very bare-bones and lacks a lot of features that modern languages which are considered 'mature' usually have." Given time, I could give numerous examples elaborating on those points, but those are basically the "categories" of complaints I have.
20160829 19:34:08< celticminstrel> I see.
20160829 19:34:25< celticminstrel> I kinda like JavaScript, for the record.
20160829 19:34:50< celticminstrel> And I've found Lua to be similar in some ways, which is nice.
20160829 19:35:14< celticminstrel> Some things are really hard to wrap my brain around though. Lua iterators don't really make sense to me, for example.
20160829 19:36:46< Ravana_> for me javascript looked like simplified c++
20160829 19:37:06< celticminstrel> It may look like C++, but it's semantically very different.
20160829 19:37:08< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, javascript is my favorite language
20160829 19:37:10< DeFender1031> ah
20160829 19:37:18< DeFender1031> i see how what i said could be misinterpreted
20160829 19:38:18< DeFender1031> what i meant was "it may as well just be javascript rather than reinventing a worse wheel"
20160829 19:39:01< DeFender1031> and I know, the argument "you should be using [insert favorite language] here" is a classic idiotic one, but that's not quite what i'm saying.
20160829 19:39:14< celticminstrel> Well, it does have things that (as far as I know) JavaScript doesn't though.
20160829 19:39:19< celticminstrel> Such as operator overloading.
20160829 19:39:34< DeFender1031> i'm saying more "it acts like a worse version of an existing language, so there was no reason to create it"
20160829 19:39:52< celticminstrel> Or rather, you can't see the reason.
20160829 19:40:23< celticminstrel> Supposedly, Lua is supposed to be fast. As far as I know, JS is generally seen to be slow.
20160829 19:41:07< DeFender1031> Ravana_, yes, it looks that way to most people until you turn the corner of truly understanding its semantics. The syntax is c-like, but the semantics are more like lisp. Just like how lua's syntax are kind of BASIC-like, but its semantics are similar to js and lisp.
20160829 19:41:56< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, can you overload lua operators FROM lua, or only from what's implementing it?
20160829 19:42:03< celticminstrel> Both.
20160829 19:42:29< celticminstrel> I think some metamethods are only available to userdata, but the operator ones can be set from Lua.
20160829 19:42:53< celticminstrel> I never thought of JS as being like lisp...
20160829 19:43:00< DeFender1031> ah, so that IS one thing JS lacks, but i've never actually found I truly NEEDED it. It's mostly syntactic sugar, and to add syntactic sugar at the expense of, well, the rest of the syntax being clunky strikes me as silly,.
20160829 19:43:49< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, then aybe it's a different language i'm thinking of? I don't personally know lisp, i have this info from someone else, so i may be confusing it for a different language.
20160829 19:44:05< DeFender1031> but whatever, the point is, the semantics aren't c-like
20160829 19:45:17< celticminstrel> Well, I don't know much Lisp myself (though have used Logo, which is Lisp-derived). And I can at least sort of see some ways in which JS might be similar to it, but ... I can't think of anything that would make me choose it as a comparison.
20160829 19:45:25< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, as for the speed, that's a matter of implementation. the speed of parsing shouldn't be noticably different if the language uses pretty much the same categories of tokens, and if the semantics are the same, then the performance is a matter of implementation in the interpreter.
20160829 19:45:56< celticminstrel> Well, that implies that the implementers of JS haven't been as concerned with speed, I guess.
20160829 19:47:49< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, well, except v8
20160829 19:48:04< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, and yes, that was true historically
20160829 19:48:45< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, remember, JS started as a simple little language to occasionally change something minor on an already fully-present html page.
20160829 19:49:05< DeFender1031> modern web turned it into a language used for serious applications
20160829 19:49:20< DeFender1031> but when it was just "you click and something small changes", it didn't need to be fast.
20160829 19:51:30< DeFender1031> modern engines like V8 are fast though
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 30 00:00:06 2016