--- Log opened Tue Sep 27 00:00:05 2016
--- Day changed Tue Sep 27 2016
20160927 00:00:05< shadowm> I mean spam posts from September 3 and August 12 (actually July 29 but Ravana's addendum is from August 12).
20160927 00:00:22< celticminstrel> Yeah, I thought that's what you meant.
20160927 00:35:33-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 00:43:20-!- atarocch [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 00:57:01-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 01:11:10-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@2601:1c2:f00:9780:15b3:792c:9719:8178] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 01:15:28-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@2601:1c2:f00:9780:15b3:792c:9719:8178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 01:18:33-!- gfgtdf_ [~chatzilla@x4e36390c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 01:22:42-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e36390c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 01:22:43-!- gfgtdf_ is now known as gfgtdf
20160927 01:30:14-!- gfgtdf_ [~chatzilla@x4e368841.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 01:32:18-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e36390c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 01:32:24-!- gfgtdf_ is now known as gfgtdf
20160927 01:46:27-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.236.20.2] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 02:00:16-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.236.20.2] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160927 02:34:50-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-138-245-35.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160927 02:49:23-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368841.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 49.0.1/20160922113459]]
20160927 02:52:34-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160927 02:54:55-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:5536:8981:9710:346d] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 02:55:14-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:5536:8981:9710:346d] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 03:47:39-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 04:08:43-!- Velexis [~Starlight@99-111-227-105.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 04:11:36-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-100-255-62.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 04:24:01-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 04:56:11< aeth> vultraz: we were talking about how bad some cave and indoor maps in mainline campaigns are, right?
20160927 04:56:26< vultraz> yes
20160927 04:56:35< vultraz> such as DiD's :|
20160927 04:56:39< vultraz> S9
20160927 04:57:20< aeth> vultraz: You should claim the ones you want to do... I can probably churn out about one mainline campaign map a day because of all the practice I've gotten at it... possibly 2 for the caves.
20160927 04:57:33< aeth> They wouldn't be perfect, but they'd be better than what's currently in mainline, and there'd be a few months to touch them up.
20160927 04:57:53< vultraz> Usually such things are done per-campaign
20160927 04:58:01< vultraz> Ie, you say you want to work on maps in a specific campaign
20160927 04:58:05< aeth> Yes, that would make the most sense.
20160927 04:58:11< aeth> That way the styles would match
20160927 04:59:02< vultraz> Honestly, you're free to work on whatever except NR, whose cave maps I've already done.
20160927 04:59:09< vultraz> I'll probably work on DiD's
20160927 04:59:11< vultraz> too
20160927 04:59:17< aeth> Yes but if you have any in mind, you should claim them now.
20160927 04:59:36< aeth> I am very, very fast at churning out maps (even though it doesn't look like it because I've been working on that huge one for over a year, although really just 15 minutes or so a day)
20160927 05:00:11< aeth> 400x200 is a bit of a special case map, anyway. The slow part is making each area look different, which is necessary because otherwise people get lost in game maps.
20160927 05:00:15< vultraz> Can't really commit to many right now so I'll just hold on to DiD
20160927 05:01:13< aeth> it's amazing how differing the quality of maps in mainline are.
20160927 05:01:28< vultraz> I already tidied up its maps at one point but I never redesigned the cave ones that much
20160927 05:01:42< vultraz> I suppose the last 2 scenarios aren't that bad, but S9 is horrible :|
20160927 05:01:58< aeth> Most of the later HttT maps are very ugly. I opened a random TRoW map called "The Dragon" and it looks great.
20160927 05:02:15< vultraz> TRoW is very high quality
20160927 05:02:33< aeth> yes, I'm opening most of those maps now
20160927 05:02:43< vultraz> HttT's early maps are great
20160927 05:02:45< aeth> I still think The Dragon is the best of the ones I've looked at, which makes it a strange coincidence
20160927 05:02:46< vultraz> later ones are ugly :P
20160927 05:03:03< aeth> ok, the map right before 17a The Dragon is ugly.... 16
20160927 05:03:16< aeth> vultraz: yes, HttT is strange... seems like someone was redoing all the maps and gave up
20160927 05:03:22< vultraz> The Dragon is nice
20160927 05:03:28< vultraz> I'd personally throw in some more variety
20160927 05:03:49< vultraz> 16 is pretty alright since it's just a cutscene
20160927 05:04:00< aeth> vultraz: Although actually, HttT early maps don't impress me anymore. The bar has been raised again since it was last redone.
20160927 05:04:17< vultraz> Sure
20160927 05:04:26< aeth> every single one of the early ones could use a redo except maybe the third
20160927 05:04:41< aeth> and 5a
20160927 05:04:42< vultraz> I'm mostly thinking of Muf Malal's Peninsula and Isle of the Damned 
20160927 05:04:48< aeth> 5a/5b
20160927 05:04:50< vultraz> tbh
20160927 05:05:12< vultraz> looking at a few TRoW maps
20160927 05:05:12< aeth> 6 definitely needs reworking
20160927 05:05:20< aeth> any place that's solid cave is just a frustration factory.
20160927 05:05:25< vultraz> mostly more grass variation is needede
20160927 05:05:32< vultraz> needed
20160927 05:05:39< aeth> You've already won by the time you get to the cave at the top of map 6 in HttT, but then that cave drags it on another 15 turns or so iirc
20160927 05:05:41< vultraz> but that's true for almost every single campaign :|
20160927 05:05:45< aeth> because all your units especially the elves suck in caves
20160927 05:05:59< aeth> map 6 in HttT should replace that northern cave with rockbound + cave path
20160927 05:06:21< aeth> vultraz: right, the early HttT maps need the flat variation (not just grass) and some more water variety
20160927 05:06:26< aeth> except maybe the 5a/5b
20160927 05:07:08< aeth> vultraz: I'm surprised mainline campaign water doesn't really have ford anywhere. Just a few coastal ford hexes that don't even cross all the way are useful to add more options in river crossing.
20160927 05:07:21< vultraz> maps like httt s18 are so unbelievably shitty
20160927 05:07:33< aeth> You don't need to ford the whole river when you're doing a river design. Even a ford hex on one side can help. I don't think I've seen that in mainline *anywhere*
20160927 05:07:53< aeth> I don't like any late HttT map iirc
20160927 05:08:56< vultraz> I'm personally really proud of my NR maps
20160927 05:09:01< aeth> vultraz: one map that stood out to me as bad in HttT last time I played it (1.5 years ago?) is The Lost General (15?)
20160927 05:09:03< vultraz> (still haven't finished them)
20160927 05:09:07< vultraz> (last 4 left)
20160927 05:09:28< aeth> almost every cave should be (1) wide and (2) have some flat or rail connection all the way through every path
20160927 05:09:31< vultraz> aeth: that one's actually tolerable 
20160927 05:09:36< aeth> otherwise you have to wait on frustratingly slow units, like elvish stuff
20160927 05:09:39< vultraz> but needs wider passages
20160927 05:09:48< aeth> vultraz: I'm thinking about the middle passage in particular
20160927 05:10:26< aeth> It's one of those situations where once you've already won, any bad-in-cave unit you have with you, especially elves, and especially *necessary* elves like elvish shaman upgrades and the Kalenz necessary hero will be painful in the caves
20160927 05:10:41< aeth> Not to mention that you might want some elves in general even though they're not ideal because they'll be your strongest units because they're your first.
20160927 05:11:16< aeth> Wider paths and rails or flat or ford or whatever greatly helps you move units from battles you've *already* won so you don't lose 15 turns doing nothing
20160927 05:11:27< vultraz> yeah
20160927 05:11:36< aeth> the last thing you want is having to wait on that druid/shyde and Kalenz
20160927 05:11:42< vultraz> httt s19b: soooo shittyyyy
20160927 05:12:12< aeth> and the slow healer means *all* of your injured units are held back, even the dwarves and any other cave-capable units you might have at that point (I don't remember it that well, I'd have to replay the very long campaign again)
20160927 05:12:22< vultraz> btw
20160927 05:12:35< vultraz> one problem almost every mainline map has
20160927 05:12:37-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:5536:8981:9710:346d] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 05:12:40< aeth> so any map where you'll probably have your healers as elvish healers is going to slow everyone down in the cave, even if it's a tons-of-unit-type campaigns like HttT
20160927 05:12:46< vultraz> so many of them were done before Pine trees had their current base
20160927 05:12:51< vultraz> so they have Pine on Green Grass
20160927 05:12:56< vultraz> which doesn't look great
20160927 05:13:12< aeth> vultraz: I don't mind pine on flat other than leaves as long as it's not the Gg
20160927 05:13:23-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:5536:8981:9710:346d] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 05:13:24< vultraz> aeth: but it is the Gg :P
20160927 05:13:27< aeth> e.g. Gs works
20160927 05:13:31< aeth> yeah
20160927 05:13:46< vultraz> Pine on Gg is a no-no
20160927 05:13:58< aeth> and honestly HttT scenario 1 should probably mix in just about every tree type
20160927 05:14:08< aeth> even ones that don't necessarily make sense
20160927 05:14:18< aeth> it's fantasy and so you can believe that elves in their homeland would cultivate diverse trees
20160927 05:14:24< aeth> maybe even put some giant mushrooms in there
20160927 05:14:58< vultraz> honestly?
20160927 05:15:01< vultraz> I'd make the map smaller
20160927 05:15:05< vultraz> and have fewer trees :P
20160927 05:15:16< aeth> another issue is that a lot of places where there would be forest hills aren't there, and a lot of forest hills seem forced
20160927 05:15:19< aeth> obviously added after the fact
20160927 05:15:30< aeth> so that goes back to idk probably 1.4?
20160927 05:15:35< vultraz> the entire bottom half is just
20160927 05:15:38< vultraz> all
20160927 05:15:41< vultraz> TREES :|
20160927 05:15:44< vultraz> *boring*
20160927 05:16:03< aeth> vultraz: trees is kind of the point of that one map, that's actually one where I wouldn't remove trees
20160927 05:16:15< aeth> vultraz: I would just use every single tree type except maybe the dead ones and definitely the winter ones
20160927 05:16:40< vultraz> I think there's definitely room for a design improvement other than just tree variety
20160927 05:16:43< vultraz> remember
20160927 05:16:56< vultraz> Some maps need *redesigns*, not just cosmetic updates
20160927 05:16:59< aeth> vultraz: if you still have my map, look around 188,195
20160927 05:17:10< vultraz> Keep that in mind when you're working on maps
20160927 05:17:14< aeth> vultraz: 188,195 is what I'd have in mind for HttT scenario 1
20160927 05:17:24< aeth> everything south of the canal/river
20160927 05:18:23< aeth> so, adding some lakes with water lilies, making all paths flower covered, adding some cosmetic castles (obviously without keeps if it's mainline campaign style gameplay)
20160927 05:18:30< aeth> adding a few huge mushrooms etc
20160927 05:18:58< aeth> vultraz: I'd keep the map the same size, but maybe widen the map to the east and shorten the height, so the distance is the same but it's more interesting the angle the south enemy comes from
20160927 05:19:05< aeth> s/interesting the angle/interesting in the angle/
20160927 05:19:19< vultraz> eh, that works
20160927 05:19:24< vultraz> except no tropical trees
20160927 05:19:37< aeth> well, yes, tropical trees fits that particular location of my particular map
20160927 05:19:40< aeth> not that one
20160927 05:20:09< aeth> I've also recently discovered that swamp fits well in big piles of trees (something I never really needed to discover until I made some RPG maps)
20160927 05:20:37< vultraz> particularly Pine 
20160927 05:20:49< aeth> but without castles, swamps, lakes, lilies, varied tree types, hills, flowery paths, etc., forests get boring.
20160927 05:21:11< vultraz> yup
20160927 05:21:19< aeth> I *still* need to work on most forests that aren't around the 188,195 lake area. that's probably the most complete elvish forest on my map
20160927 05:21:24< aeth> that's why I brought that area up in particular
20160927 05:22:39< vultraz> anyway, you can look at what i did with NR's first 9 scenarios if you want to get a feel of my style 
20160927 05:24:56< aeth> HttT scenario 1 could probably fit 3-4 lakes in the style I did
20160927 05:25:06< aeth> which would at least make things a bit more interesting
20160927 05:25:34< vultraz> wider paths
20160927 05:25:42< vultraz> more signs of actual habitation
20160927 05:25:49< vultraz> houses
20160927 05:25:51< vultraz> greens
20160927 05:26:46< aeth> vultraz: what it needs tactically are (1) lakes to add some obstacles, (2) hills, (3) cosmetic (and defensive) castles, etc.
20160927 05:27:06< aeth> and really I have no idea why the flowery roads don't go all the way, at least until it connects with the dirt
20160927 05:27:53< aeth> including perhaps some castles that are *on* the roads, giving some defensive points (that obviously the AI won't understand how to use but idk, maybe the player could find them interesting)
20160927 05:28:44< aeth> there's quite a variety in castle types (and there should probably be another dozen or so) and they make a good way to add variety to the defensively significant areas of the map without breaking balance *too* much imo.
20160927 05:28:45< vultraz> I imagine something like this https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Vultraz/Shadows_of_Deception/master/episode1/maps/05_01_Ambush_in_Wesmere.map
20160927 05:28:56< vultraz> (S 5.1 in my addon if you still have the clone)
20160927 05:31:41< aeth> vultraz: I like that map
20160927 05:31:48< vultraz> thanks
20160927 05:31:57-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep
20160927 05:31:59< aeth> I don't think HttT 1 should look like that, though.
20160927 05:32:03< aeth> no ruins or non-green trees imo
20160927 05:32:23< aeth> it looks like you do use cosmetic castles like I do
20160927 05:32:34< aeth> I like the idea of starting the river on a lake, HttT 1 could do that
20160927 05:34:05-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-100-255-62.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: .]
20160927 05:34:14< aeth> actually, ruins where the orcs are might make sense
20160927 05:36:26-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C7131FC6BB83B9BEC5110.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 05:37:17< aeth> I should update my Wesnoth gits
20160927 05:38:06< aeth> I can probably make a draft faster than I can talk about what I have in mind in words
20160927 05:40:48< aeth> vultraz: I personally think though that most mainline campaign maps should have more randomish small lakes/ponds in them to make them a bit more strategically interesting. They already are usually good with rivers/coasts where possible, and impassable mountains and walls don't make sense in a lot of places
20160927 05:41:03< aeth> which leaves water as the main barrier to create strategy for most of the map settings
20160927 05:41:31< aeth> e.g. the map you had in mind does have a lake (a bit larger than I'd insert into mainline maps, though) and that does create some strategy that wouldn't otherwise be there
20160927 05:42:30< aeth> you also have mountains, but in places where that doesn't make sense *more* lakes would probably work okay.
20160927 05:44:29< aeth> *Although* on the other hand, a lot of mainline maps are very out of sync with what multiplayer and a lot of other map styles have... in that some don't have any mountains at all. Even if there's no huge mountain range, there probably should be a few mountains on almost every map.
20160927 05:45:24< aeth> I'll see if I can put together some maps now that my very large map is wrapping up, or at least the low hanging fruit parts of it.
20160927 05:51:51< aeth> ugh, the editor keeps getting worse and worse
20160927 05:52:16< aeth> I can't even zoom out all of the way to take a quick screenshot
20160927 05:54:49< vultraz> use the - key
20160927 05:55:38< aeth> I'll just upload the map itself somewhere
20160927 05:55:56< aeth> anyway, in literally less than 10 minutes with very little thought I managed to imo greatly improve parts of the map
20160927 05:56:06< aeth> mostly two lakes, some wider paths in the south, and some mountains
20160927 05:57:08< aeth> it will take me longer to find a way to upload it somewhere :-p
20160927 05:57:22< aeth> not like it's the final version, it's just sort of to prove how bad most maps are :-p
20160927 05:58:27< aeth> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/Aethaeryn/be8a480a8bcd11729cca566af7906338/raw/ef8610ce4e9832015271d1a709fff6613d9755ff/new-httt-1.map
20160927 05:58:32< aeth> hopefully I uploaded the right one
20160927 05:59:02< aeth> I made it in 1.13 but it loads in 1.12
20160927 06:00:35< aeth> you can quickly flip between the two versions of the map, mainline and my < 10 min additions to see what I did
20160927 06:00:56< aeth> I picked spots that will mostly not change how the map plays (hopefully)
20160927 06:01:00< aeth> vultraz: ^
20160927 06:01:20-!- midzer_ is now known as midzer
20160927 06:02:31< aeth> Those should be the less controversial parts of what we talked about that was bad with the map. Obviously a lot more could change.
20160927 06:02:54< vultraz> it's a good start
20160927 06:02:58< vultraz> would prefer w/o mushrooms, though
20160927 06:03:01< aeth> And obviously a real version would have e.g. slightly better shorelines of the new lakes because I'd spend more time on that.
20160927 06:03:11< vultraz> instead, you should use the mushroom embellishment
20160927 06:03:21< aeth> I do use the mushroom embellishment in a few places
20160927 06:03:32< aeth> obviously not as many as I would in a final version, though
20160927 06:03:45< aeth> I said obviously too much for things that aren't obvious
20160927 06:09:38< aeth> vultraz: What I could do is put together a large PR on Github with a few dozen of these maps having minor and/or cosmetic changes like what I just did given how fast I can do them (faster than I expected)
20160927 06:09:42< aeth> Stuff that's not *as* controversial.
20160927 06:10:10< aeth> And then once those are in I could try to do some more of the overhaul changes on the more obviously broken or outdated maps.
20160927 06:13:11-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-138-252-80.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 06:27:26-!- atarocch [~atarocch@natmobil.sfa.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 06:31:36< vultraz> aeth: I think it'd be better to do changes at once, large or not
20160927 06:31:41< vultraz> along with any necessary WML tweaks
20160927 06:34:59-!- Velexis [~Starlight@99-111-227-105.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 06:35:34< vultraz> aeth: and of course, group your PRs by campaign
20160927 06:53:56-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 06:54:02-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 06:55:40-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C7131FC6BB83B9BEC5110.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 06:57:25-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 07:18:47-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 07:22:12-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.111.113] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 07:23:48-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 07:31:27-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.111.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 07:32:05-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 07:42:55-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FB835AD0A92CB8361.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 07:49:46-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.108.96] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 07:56:16-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.108.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 08:02:25-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:02:44-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:09:17-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 08:09:24-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:09:24-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot
20160927 08:12:20-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FB835AD0A92CB8361.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 08:12:29< zookeeper> shadowm, oops, sorry, those fell by the wayside
20160927 08:15:39-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.112.86] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:29:41-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.112.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 08:40:08-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FA405930FA281901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:46:33-!- irker840 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:46:33< irker840> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master dc2b95c36432 / data/core/units/trolls/Troll_Shaman.cfg: refactored Troll Shaman animation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/dc2b95c3643205c820eeefb426751d6f3b671f32
20160927 08:46:35< irker840> wesnoth: Lari Nieminen wesnoth:master b3dc6ac265ac / data/core/units/trolls/Troll_Shaman.cfg: Merge pull request #803 from sevu/master https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b3dc6ac265ac934c192688b0ab182ab5aab93525
20160927 08:52:07-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.13.6 planned for late September | Wesnoth Inc. board elections: https://r.wesnoth.org/t44616 (voting time is now over) | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20160927 08:53:52-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.13.6 planned for late September | Wesnoth Inc. board elections: https://r.wesnoth.org/t44616 (voting period is now over) | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20160927 08:54:07-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.114.10] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 08:54:22< vultraz> It's now past midnight on the 27th in the US.
20160927 09:25:58-!- Duthlet [~Duthlet@dslb-146-060-179-135.146.060.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 09:45:52-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160927 09:59:25-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD119104055135.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 10:01:17-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD119104058254.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 10:01:40-!- Appleman1234_ is now known as Appleman1234
20160927 10:17:17-!- aquileia [863c36a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.60.54.168] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 10:17:23< vultraz> god dammit, I cannot get this code to work :|
20160927 10:27:06< aquileia> I thought I'd fixed and merged that branch already... https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/compare/master...aquileia:sprites
20160927 10:28:14< aquileia> vultraz: Please define 'late September' - how fast should I get those animations in?
20160927 10:28:43-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.13.6 planned for mid-October | Wesnoth Inc. board elections: https://r.wesnoth.org/t44616 (voting period is now over) | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20160927 10:28:51< vultraz> We won't make it in september
20160927 10:28:56< aquileia> vultraz: Even better!
20160927 10:28:57< vultraz> the release isn't ready :|
20160927 10:29:18< vultraz> I'm in the middle of dealing with Mp Staging
20160927 10:29:22< vultraz> the addons manager is broken
20160927 10:29:46-!- Elvish_H1 [~elvish_hu@baldras.wesnoth.org] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 10:29:46-!- Elvish_H1 [~elvish_hu@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 10:29:46< aquileia> Ah, that's unfortunate ,I thought you'd just wait for nice-to-haves...
20160927 10:29:52-!- Elvish_H1 is now known as Elvish_Hunter
20160927 10:30:27< vultraz> I wanted to release around now but that just won't happen.
20160927 10:31:43< vultraz> not unless we want a whole release where people cannot download addons :P
20160927 10:33:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 10:39:30-!- aquileia [863c36a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.60.54.168] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20160927 10:48:50-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@nblzone-242-23.nblnetworks.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 10:52:49-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 10:58:49-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.114.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 11:02:55< matthiaskrgr> btw there are a bunch of new warings compiling with gcc7 (git version)
20160927 11:03:15< matthiaskrgr> I can post a log as soon as the build is done
20160927 11:08:09< vultraz> D:
20160927 11:11:16< matthiaskrgr> most of it so far is -Wimplicit-fallthrough 
20160927 11:12:29< zookeeper> urgh, i missed aquileia
20160927 11:12:55-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 11:13:09< zookeeper> mid-october, eh? i guess i don't have to push that UtBS stuff today...
20160927 11:13:58< vultraz> we'll be getting a taste of the new utbs soon?
20160927 11:14:23< matthiaskrgr> new utbs? :o
20160927 11:14:23< zookeeper> well i wanted to get it to the next release
20160927 11:14:33< zookeeper> matthiaskrgr, just a new desert elf unitset
20160927 11:14:39< matthiaskrgr> oh :P
20160927 11:16:03-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 11:16:03-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160927 11:24:57-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160927 11:39:15-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FA405930FA281901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 11:46:39-!- irker840 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout]
20160927 11:50:08-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 11:56:09< vultraz> blagh
20160927 11:56:11< vultraz> god dammit
20160927 11:56:49-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 11:56:54< vultraz> making Wait use this dialog is harder than I thought :|
20160927 12:00:16< vultraz> the old wait dialog had no engine
20160927 12:00:34< vultraz> it was essentially a display
20160927 12:04:49< vultraz> the host receives data that a neq person joined
20160927 12:05:19< matthiaskrgr>  http://pastebin.com/3mvrH6bf  
20160927 12:05:20< vultraz> but not the other way around..
20160927 12:06:12-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 12:06:43< vultraz> so the dialog initializes itself from the connect_engine...
20160927 12:06:52< vultraz> so the new dialog
20160927 12:07:00< vultraz> s connect_engine needs to match in data
20160927 12:22:16-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.113.246] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 12:41:29-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 12:47:53-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 13:06:28-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FE93300109678BD71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 13:30:49-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 14:15:40-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@nblzone-242-23.nblnetworks.fi] has quit [Quit: .]
20160927 14:19:38-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 14:20:56-!- atarocch [~atarocch@natmobil.sfa.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 14:22:51-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 14:23:26-!- atarocch [~atarocch@natmobil.sfa.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 14:33:46-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 14:33:53-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 14:37:15-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.113.246] has quit [Quit: Salve a tutti]
20160927 14:42:12-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 14:59:27-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.]
20160927 14:59:43-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p579FBF3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:02:00-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 15:02:18-!- midzer [~quassel@p57B452A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
20160927 15:03:32-!- midzer [~quassel@p57B452A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:05:14-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20160927 15:18:21-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@c-24-21-224-89.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:19:11-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:5536:8981:9710:346d] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20160927 15:24:10-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p579FBF3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 15:24:10-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:31:06-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:42:57-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:52:53-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.]
20160927 15:53:10-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:53:46-!- boucman_work [~boucman@209.57.66.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 15:55:20-!- midzer [~quassel@p57B452A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
20160927 15:56:38-!- midzer [~quassel@p57B452A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 15:57:28-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20160927 16:03:29-!- atarocch [~atarocch@natmobil.sfa.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 16:15:18-!- atarocch [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:25:21-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.108.228] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:33:04-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-92-31-24.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:33:54-!- zookeeper_ [~lmsnie@37.35.27.57] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:36:34-!- Kwandulin_2 [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FE93300109678BD71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:36:36-!- minzbonbon [~min@meta23.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 16:36:57-!- AI0867_ [~ai@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:36:59-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160927 16:36:59-!- Greywhin1 [~Greywhind@c-71-232-29-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160927 16:36:59-!- AI0867_ [~ai@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 16:36:59-!- AI0867_ [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:37:10-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 16:37:12-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:37:14-!- higgins [~higgins@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:37:18-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:37:20-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:37:22-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 16:37:24-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 16:37:26-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160927 16:37:26-!- Duthlet [~Duthlet@dslb-146-060-179-135.146.060.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20160927 16:37:29-!- enchi [enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 16:37:34-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160927 16:37:35-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FE93300109678BD71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:37:36-!- heirecka [~heirecka@exherbo/developer/heirecka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:37:37-!- TheJJ_ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:37:47-!- enchi [enchilado@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-apecbbtidyfmnpka] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:38:03-!- Greg-Bog_ [~greg_bogg@2603:3004:605:da00:591c:45d:66b9:d8] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:38:08-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@c-24-21-224-89.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 16:38:12-!- celmin|sleep [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:38:12-!- VultCave [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:38:15-!- heirecka [~heirecka@exherbo/developer/heirecka] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:38:22-!- Kwandulin_2 [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711FE93300109678BD71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 16:38:23-!- higgins` [~higgins@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 16:38:23-!- AI0867 [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 16:38:27-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-92-31-24.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 16:38:34-!- VultCave is now known as vultraz
20160927 16:38:37-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD119104055135.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 16:38:37-!- prkc [~prkc@46.166.190.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 16:40:27-!- minzbonbon [~min@meta23.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:42:37-!- Samual [~Samual@2601:547:1000:86f:9086:a243:dbd0:5fd] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:42:48-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:42:56-!- Samual [~Samual@2601:547:1000:86f:9086:a243:dbd0:5fd] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 16:42:56-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:45:18-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@2603:3004:605:da00:591c:45d:66b9:d8] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:45:46-!- VultCave [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:46:57-!- AI0867_ [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 16:47:11-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 16:47:12-!- higgins [~higgins@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 16:47:13-!- enchi [enchilado@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-apecbbtidyfmnpka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 16:47:16-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:47:17-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 16:47:19-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:47:22-!- minzbonbon [~min@meta23.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160927 16:47:23-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160927 16:47:23-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160927 16:47:23-!- VultCave is now known as vultraz
20160927 16:47:23-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:47:27-!- AI0867 [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:48:00-!- TheJJ_ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 16:48:03-!- Greg-Bog_ [~greg_bogg@2603:3004:605:da00:591c:45d:66b9:d8] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 16:48:04-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:48:05-!- iwaim_ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:48:12-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.108.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 16:48:14-!- higgins` [~higgins@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:48:35-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160927 16:49:29-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@2603:3004:605:da00:591c:45d:66b9:d8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 16:50:16-!- zookeeper_ is now known as zookeeper
20160927 16:50:19-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@37.35.27.57] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 16:50:19-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:50:51-!- prkc [~prkc@46.166.190.214] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:52:19-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:53:58-!- minzbonbon [~min@meta23.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:54:03-!- enchi [enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:54:10-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:54:26-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@2601:1c2:f00:9780:28a1:1a4f:d5ca:2bf6] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:57:58-!- Greywhind [~Greywhind@71.232.29.126] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:59:05-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@2601:1c2:f00:9780:28a1:1a4f:d5ca:2bf6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 16:59:30-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:59:56-!- knotwork [~markm@99.192.64.28] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 16:59:56-!- knotwork [~markm@99.192.64.28] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 16:59:56-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:00:21< vultraz> gah
20160927 17:00:23< vultraz> I give up :|
20160927 17:01:05-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@c-76-115-139-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:01:48 * vultraz waits around for gfgtdf
20160927 17:05:45-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:08:44-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:09:09-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:09:49-!- Greg-Bog_ [~greg_bogg@c-76-115-139-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:10:50-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:10:54-!- heirecka [~heirecka@exherbo/developer/heirecka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 17:11:01-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:04-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 17:11:10-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.114.116] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:13-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 17:11:13-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 17:11:14-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:29-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@c-76-115-139-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 17:11:31-!- atarocch_ [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:38-!- Samual [~Samual@2601:547:1000:86f:9086:a243:dbd0:5fd] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:43-!- higgins [~higgins@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:47-!- Samual [~Samual@2601:547:1000:86f:9086:a243:dbd0:5fd] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 17:11:47-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:11:53-!- iwaim_ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 17:11:53-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 17:11:54-!- atarocch [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 17:11:57-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20160927 17:11:58-!- heirecka [~heirecka@exherbo/developer/heirecka] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:12:18-!- higgins` [~higgins@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 17:12:21-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 17:12:25-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160927 17:13:13-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20160927 17:13:16-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:19:19-!- wedge010 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:21:01-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 17:21:01-!- wedge010 is now known as wedge009
20160927 17:21:56-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 17:22:17-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:22:31-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-138-252-80.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 17:22:50-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 17:24:21-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 275 seconds]
20160927 17:25:41-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 17:25:58-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-138-252-80.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:27:04-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:28:08-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Aginor
20160927 17:28:08-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:32:43-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: timotei_
20160927 17:32:52-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 17:32:53-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:32:53-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 17:33:19-!- enchi [enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 17:33:27-!- enchi_ [enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:33:32-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:33:59-!- timotei [~timotei@79.119.100.31] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:34:00-!- timotei [~timotei@79.119.100.31] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 17:34:00-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:34:01-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.114.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 17:34:06-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc36896.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:36:03-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:38:36-!- mordante [~mordante@2001:984:5786:1:7a24:afff:fe8c:dea8] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:38:36-!- mordante [~mordante@2001:984:5786:1:7a24:afff:fe8c:dea8] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 17:38:36-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:38:50< mordante> servus
20160927 17:39:22< vultraz> hello
20160927 17:39:46< mordante> hi vultraz 
20160927 17:44:11< celmin> Hi
20160927 17:44:47< mordante> hi celmin 
20160927 17:48:22-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: http://www.kvirc.net/ 4.9.2 Aria]
20160927 17:49:01-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
20160927 17:50:23-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 17:51:40-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:53:06-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD119104055135.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:53:44-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:56:16-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:56:16-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 17:56:16-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:56:43-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.106.152] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 17:57:25-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:03:59-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711F5D0DDE61A153BF9C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:04:18-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-92-31-24.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:07:36-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160927 18:08:51-!- JyrkiVesterinen_ [~JyrkiVest@87-92-31-24.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:10:26-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 18:10:37-!- Netsplit over, joins: timotei_
20160927 18:10:40-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD119104055135.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 18:10:42-!- prkc [~prkc@46.166.190.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 18:10:42-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:11:25-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 18:11:27-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 18:11:28-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 18:11:29-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-92-31-24.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 18:11:29-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.106.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 18:11:35-!- JyrkiVesterinen_ is now known as JyrkiVesterinen
20160927 18:11:44-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.106.152] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:13:36-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:18:45< zookeeper> matthiaskrgr, so how long does one woptipng run take for you?
20160927 18:20:57-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 18:22:03-!- iwaim____ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:22:59< matthiaskrgr> uhmm
20160927 18:23:58< matthiaskrgr> I don't really remember, I usually launch it when I go to sleep and it's done when I wake up in the morning
20160927 18:24:40< celmin> That does seem to imply an upper bound.
20160927 18:24:50< matthiaskrgr> it should be slower than the bash script though 
20160927 18:25:05< matthiaskrgr> the core functionality is:  
20160927 18:26:05< matthiaskrgr> 1) save the original image.   2) run crusher Nr1  3) compare original image with crusher1_image, if nothing changed, proceed with crusher2, it if changed, revert and and try crusher2 
20160927 18:26:42< matthiaskrgr> after iterating through all crushers one time, it will at least try another iteration because modifications by crusher1 might open up optimizations by another crusher 
20160927 18:28:14< matthiaskrgr> on my system, I went through 70 MB of pngs in around one hour 
20160927 18:28:29< matthiaskrgr> (dual core system, 2 threads) 
20160927 18:28:31< matthiaskrgr> er, 4 threads
20160927 18:29:05-!- iwaim_____ [~iwaim@124.146.179.10] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:29:31< matthiaskrgr> (my laptops processor is from 2011) 
20160927 18:30:31-!- iwaim____ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 18:31:34-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:31:34-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 18:31:34-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:31:46< celmin> matthiaskrgr: Why do you add input files to the list twice?
20160927 18:32:08< matthiaskrgr> er
20160927 18:32:43< matthiaskrgr> what do you mean?
20160927 18:32:57< celmin> Lines 54 and 57.
20160927 18:33:27-!- prkc [~prkc@46.166.190.214] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:33:29< matthiaskrgr> oh! 
20160927 18:33:58< matthiaskrgr> well, I have to admit I just copied that section from another script which I wrote half a year ago, let me see
20160927 18:34:18< celmin> My guess would be that line 57 isn't wanted.
20160927 18:34:51< matthiaskrgr> yeah
20160927 18:35:08< matthiaskrgr> thanks
20160927 18:35:11< celmin> "files not found" seems an odd error to print for files that just weren't PNGs.
20160927 18:35:54< celmin> Does PIL.open return a file object?
20160927 18:35:58< celmin> Or similar?
20160927 18:36:17< celmin> ie, are you supposed to close it?
20160927 18:37:26< matthiaskrgr> hm, the compare_images.py script where I took this from doesn't close it 
20160927 18:37:34< celmin> On line 94 your comment is useless. :P
20160927 18:37:43< celmin> It says the exact same thing as the if statement.
20160927 18:38:01< celmin> Is line 92 right?
20160927 18:38:16< celmin> image_got_smaller = size(image) > size(tmpimage)
20160927 18:38:26< celmin> Maybe I'm just confused about which image is which.
20160927 18:38:38< vultraz> "with not source" <-typo
20160927 18:38:54< celmin> "cant" too, same line. :P
20160927 18:39:13< celmin> You could make an argument for "bc" but whatever.
20160927 18:40:16< matthiaskrgr> 20:38 < celmin> image_got_smaller = size(image) > size(tmpimage)
20160927 18:40:26< matthiaskrgr> image is the original, tmpimage is the new one 
20160927 18:40:31< celmin> Ah, okay.
20160927 18:41:12< celmin> Is it "advdev" or "advdef"? You have one spelling in the function and debug print, but call it as the other spelling.
20160927 18:41:56< celmin> Also, you only run it at compression level 4 even though you construct the command-line for the other levels, is that intentional?
20160927 18:42:08< celmin> If so, just remove the array and the loop.
20160927 18:42:22< celmin> (The compression_levels array, I mean.)
20160927 18:42:25< Nobun> celmin: don't know if you tested it, but the first snapshot I PMed to you is still broken. During those days I'm working on fixing errors. I will PM or write you when I will update the experimental branch
20160927 18:42:44< celmin> Nobun: Okay, thanks for update.
20160927 18:43:06< celmin> matthiaskrgr: On a completely unrelated note, much as I hate it, EH and co prefer spaces in their Python.
20160927 18:43:51< matthiaskrgr> 20:41 < celmin> Also, you only run it at compression level 4 even though you construct the 
20160927 18:43:54< matthiaskrgr>                 command-line for the other levels, is that intentional?
20160927 18:44:00< matthiaskrgr> from what I got, advdef only saves the image if it got smaller
20160927 18:44:10< Nobun> celmin, matthiaskrgr : I am one of those :D
20160927 18:44:49< Nobun> for better code readability I usually use space on expressions, I don't use space on pure assignment (under parameters)
20160927 18:44:52< celmin> matthiaskrgr: My point is that the code makes it look like you wanted to call it four times, but you're mnot.
20160927 18:44:53< matthiaskrgr> at least they have this in their manpage
20160927 18:44:53< matthiaskrgr>        -f, --force
20160927 18:44:53< matthiaskrgr>               Force the use of the new file also if it´s bigger.
20160927 18:44:59< matthiaskrgr> which implies that the other passes don't store if bigger 
20160927 18:45:08< matthiaskrgr> ah let me see again
20160927 18:45:38< matthiaskrgr> aaaah 
20160927 18:45:39< matthiaskrgr> derp :) 
20160927 18:45:50-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:45:53< matthiaskrgr> ok I got it now 
20160927 18:46:05< matthiaskrgr> thanks
20160927 18:46:07-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 18:46:40< matthiaskrgr> (the avdef bug)
20160927 18:46:55< matthiaskrgr> *advdef
20160927 18:49:15< matthiaskrgr> https://github.com/matthiaskrgr/woptipng/blob/master/woptipng.py  
20160927 18:57:00-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160927 18:58:50< matthiaskrgr> ok, thanks for the feedback!   I updated the PR 
20160927 18:58:53< zookeeper> matthiaskrgr, right, so several hours at least?
20160927 18:59:03< matthiaskrgr> yeah, probably 
20160927 18:59:33< matthiaskrgr> I could to fancy stuff like checking the git log for "optipng" and only process images that have chaneged since that 
20160927 18:59:40< zookeeper> okay, i was asking just to know how cumbersome it is to try different thresholds
20160927 18:59:48< matthiaskrgr> ah
20160927 19:00:45-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 19:01:10-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:01:58< matthiaskrgr> you could, in theory, set threshold to 0, so that all changes are saved and then compare the before/after sizes via some program (that is not yet written though :P ) 
20160927 19:01:58-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160927 19:02:10 * celmin wonders what os.devnull is on Windows.
20160927 19:04:32< celmin> About the PIL.open… from the docs it looks like that's not a file-like object that needs to be closed, so yay I guess.
20160927 19:04:55< matthiaskrgr> yeah 
20160927 19:05:16< celmin> I suppose maybe you could explicitly delete them, but meh.
20160927 19:05:56< matthiaskrgr> I think they should vanish as soon as they go out of scope aka end of the function
20160927 19:06:07< celmin> Possibly.
20160927 19:06:38< matthiaskrgr> otherwise I would probably have run out of ram at some point :) 
20160927 19:06:39< celmin> Or whenever garbage collection is run.
20160927 19:09:10< JyrkiVesterinen> celmin: The Windows equivalent of /dev/null is NUL.
20160927 19:09:37< JyrkiVesterinen> For example, you can discard output of a console program by adding "> NUL" to the end of the command line.
20160927 19:09:37< matthiaskrgr> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6735917/redirecting-stdout-to-nothing-in-python?answertab=votes#tab-top  
20160927 19:10:57-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD119104055135.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:12:34-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 19:13:17< celmin> Are there even any big-endian platforms left?
20160927 19:13:38< celmin> Or non-POSIX ones besides Windows and consoles?
20160927 19:13:56 * celmin knows Wii is big-endian, unsure about WiiU.
20160927 19:14:28-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20160927 19:14:43 * celmin mostly isn't counting consoles though, despite mentioning them.
20160927 19:15:22< celmin> It just seems like in many cases you only need to care about two platforms now. (Three if it's something GUI-related.)
20160927 19:15:39< matthiaskrgr> did the bash script even support windows? :P
20160927 19:15:48< celmin> Of course not.
20160927 19:15:51< celmin> Well.
20160927 19:16:05< celmin> I suppose it might've worked if you installed bash on windows.
20160927 19:16:10-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 19:16:10-!- aidanhs2 [~aidanhs@2a00:d880:6:1ad::8e27] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 19:17:31< celmin> There's no reason not to delete the campaignd_asio branch, is there?
20160927 19:19:42-!- aidanhs2 [~aidanhs@81.4.110.234] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:20:34-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:22:00-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.106.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20160927 19:26:49-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 19:26:57-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 19:26:59-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F2C711F5D0DDE61A153BF9C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 19:27:20-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 19:28:27-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:28:45< celmin> loonycyborg: ^
20160927 19:29:30< loonycyborg> yup it can be deleted since it's merged
20160927 19:29:38< celmin> There are 13 stale branches… surely asio_umcd can be deleted though? Since campaignd_asio presumably supercedes it?
20160927 19:30:22< celmin> "help_gui2 - updated 2 years ago by vultraz" Huh.
20160927 19:30:26< loonycyborg> I think mordante was mentor of that old project for campaignd
20160927 19:30:32< loonycyborg> uncd
20160927 19:31:00< celmin> Well, I think that one's worth keeping.
20160927 19:31:19< celmin> It means I won't have to do the WML if I decide to try to implement it later.
20160927 19:32:10-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:33:20-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:34:28< celmin> What's this mp_registration branch from 2008...
20160927 19:34:54-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20160927 19:35:06-!- Elvish_Hunter [~elvish_hu@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 19:35:07-!- elias [~allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 19:35:28< zookeeper> sounds awfully much like the MP login system
20160927 19:35:30-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20160927 19:35:33-!- abruanese [~a@45.63.97.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 19:35:33-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 19:35:41< zookeeper> but i guess it could be something else too
20160927 19:35:41< celmin> Yeah, seems like it.
20160927 19:35:51< celmin> But it's unmerged, so it's obviously not the same thing.
20160927 19:35:52-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 19:35:56-!- Samual [~Samual@2601:547:1000:86f:9086:a243:dbd0:5fd] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:35:58-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 19:36:15-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:36:15-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 1.13.6 planned for mid-October | Wesnoth Inc. board elections: https://r.wesnoth.org/t44616 (voting period is now over) | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20160927 19:36:15-!- Topic set by vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] [Tue Sep 27 10:28:43 2016]
20160927 19:36:15[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20160927 19:36:15[ _laco       ] [ celticminstrel ] [ Greg-Bog_      ] [ knotwork    ] [ nurupo    ] [ Soliton  ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ abruanese   ] [ ChipmunkV      ] [ Greywhind      ] [ lobby       ] [ oldlaptop ] [ TC01     ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ aeth        ] [ clavi          ] [ heirecka       ] [ Lohengramm  ] [ Polsaker  ] [ TC02     ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ AI0867      ] [ crimson_penguin] [ higgins        ] [ loonycyborg ] [ prkc      ] [ TheJJ    ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ aidanhs2    ] [ DDR            ] [ Ivanovic       ] [ louis94     ] [ pydsigner ] [ timotei_ ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ ancestral   ] [ DeFender       ] [ iwaim_____     ] [ matthiaskrgr] [ Ravana_   ] [ tomreyn  ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ APic        ] [ EliDupree      ] [ janebot        ] [ midzer      ] [ Rhonda    ] [ vincent_c] 
20160927 19:36:15[ Appleman1234] [ Elsi           ] [ Jetrel_        ] [ minzbonbon  ] [ Samual    ] [ vultraz  ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ atarocch_   ] [ enchi_         ] [ Jetrel_bot     ] [ new_one     ] [ shadowm   ] [ wedge009 ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ boucman     ] [ esr            ] [ JyrkiVesterinen] [ nore        ] [ shikadibot] [ Yaiyan   ] 
20160927 19:36:15[ celmin      ] [ exciton        ] [ kidneb         ] [ noy         ] [ Sirp      ] [ zookeeper] 
20160927 19:36:15-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 66 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 66 normal]
20160927 19:36:19-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 05:28:41 2009
20160927 19:36:29-!- Elvish_H1 [~elvish_hu@baldras.wesnoth.org] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:36:42-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:36:54-!- elias [~allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:37:02-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:37:08-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 61 secs
20160927 19:38:12-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.105.90] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:39:36< celmin> It appears that Steam supports OpenID, which is great – shouldn't be too hard to allow users to log into the MP server using their Steam account then.
20160927 19:40:29-!- Samual [~Samual@2601:547:1000:86f:9086:a243:dbd0:5fd] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 19:40:29-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:40:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20160927 19:41:10< celmin> It could probably be done at any time, even – there's not really any need to wait until the Steam release if I understand correctly.
20160927 19:41:23< celmin> We'll probably need to decorate Steam names though.
20160927 19:41:34< celmin> My thought was to add a dollar sign in front.
20160927 19:41:46< celmin> Or maybe an at-sign.
20160927 19:41:52-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:44:13-!- esr [~esr@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 19:44:51-!- Elvish_Hunter [~elvish_hu@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:44:51-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20160927 19:45:03-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 19:45:24-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:45:46< celmin> I wonder if OpenID can work without HTTP though...
20160927 19:45:46-!- Elvish_H1 [~elvish_hu@baldras.wesnoth.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 19:45:48-!- esr1 [~esr@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:45:49-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.105.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 19:46:04-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:47:39-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.105.90] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:49:06< vultraz> celmin: yeah, I didn't mean to push that
20160927 19:49:17< celmin> vultraz: Eh? Why not?
20160927 19:49:28< vultraz> celmin: because there's nothing there
20160927 19:49:41< celmin> There's a .cfg file which, at a glance, looks useful.
20160927 19:49:45< vultraz> it's basically a WML stub based on the help dialog from my campaign
20160927 19:49:55< celmin> I dunno how useful.
20160927 19:50:09< celmin> Seems OpenID can indeed work without direct user interaction.
20160927 19:51:13< vultraz> very minimally useful
20160927 19:51:17< celmin> Ah, wait, maybe not?
20160927 19:52:13< vultraz> it was essentially a wml file for this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95558676/sod_help.PNG
20160927 19:52:39< celmin> Seems pretty good, but lacking the navigation buttons?
20160927 19:53:07< vultraz> obviously
20160927 19:53:18< vultraz> why would I give a 3-topic dialog nav buttons :P
20160927 19:53:25< celmin> Fair enough, I guess.
20160927 19:53:39< vultraz> anyway
20160927 19:53:48-!- irker211 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:53:48< irker211> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 296902d426a0 / / (5 files in 4 dirs): Add a "simulate lobby activity" plugin https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/296902d426a0ad09310c7b661abf2126b9d60dea
20160927 19:53:56< vultraz> i abandoned the project after i realized it would be too difficult 
20160927 19:54:06< vultraz> especially with my knowledge of gui2 at the time
20160927 19:54:14< vultraz> and c++
20160927 19:54:29< vultraz> i don't think you realize just how much I've improved in the 2 years on both fronts :P
20160927 19:54:51< celmin> Shrug!
20160927 19:55:25-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:55:25-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 19:55:25-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 19:55:32< vultraz> anyway
20160927 19:55:43< vultraz> as you know, help gui2 is a very large project
20160927 19:57:16< vultraz> and I certainly want to consider some redesigns for certain areas
20160927 19:57:27< celmin> My main qualm about doing it is that proper wrapping requires low-level pango, and pango is a C library so I'm not too keen on having to use it.
20160927 19:58:01< vultraz> something tells me that the pango path is not the only way :|
20160927 19:58:14< celmin> Hmm?
20160927 19:59:35< celmin> What other way do you have in mind?
20160927 20:03:35-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@87-92-31-24.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Going to bed]
20160927 20:08:21-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20160927 20:12:58< vultraz> maybe a separate unit browser 
20160927 20:13:06< vultraz> something in the style of dota 2
20160927 20:14:11< celmin> I don't see how that solves anything.
20160927 20:14:32< celmin> It's not like unit topics are the only problematic ones.
20160927 20:15:33-!- esr1 is now known as esr
20160927 20:20:08-!- noy_ [~Noy@184.69.143.198] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:20:08-!- noy_ [~Noy@184.69.143.198] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 20:20:08-!- noy_ [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:21:01-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 20:21:55-!- vincent_c [~bip@vcheng.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 20:22:20-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:22:21-!- _laco [~laco@static.183.80.201.138.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 20:23:00-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:23:05-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:23:08-!- noy_ is now known as noy
20160927 20:23:13-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 20:23:25-!- Aginor_ [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:23:56< vultraz> no, it doesn't "solve" anything in particular
20160927 20:23:56-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:24:02-!- irker211 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:24:05-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:24:07-!- esr [~esr@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:24:10< vultraz> I just think that there's potential for redesign
20160927 20:24:12-!- vincent_` [~bip@vcheng.org] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:24:34< vultraz> some pages I think can go
20160927 20:24:39< vultraz> like the ToD page you get in-game
20160927 20:24:48< celmin> Removing units from the help (and putting them in their own place) doesn't really help with any of the issues.
20160927 20:24:53< celmin> The only requirement it removes is tables.
20160927 20:24:54-!- esr [~esr@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:24:54-!- esr [~esr@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 20:24:54-!- esr [~esr@wesnoth/developer/esr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:25:00< celmin> (Which aren't one of the issues.)
20160927 20:25:04-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:25:43< vultraz> we can also possibly just do away with text wrapping in the manual pages and have images/text in different columns
20160927 20:25:56< vultraz> though again, that means different grids per-page
20160927 20:26:31< celmin> It's probably not a good idea to just outright remove any pages, honestly.
20160927 20:26:47 * celmin doesn't know what ToD page you're talking about.
20160927 20:28:12< vultraz> I'd probably also drop the Encyclopedia 
20160927 20:28:51< celmin> No.
20160927 20:29:14< celmin> Don't go dropping fun and useful things. :|
20160927 20:29:28< vultraz> To be re-introduced when we actually have fun and detailed lore to put in it
20160927 20:29:45< celmin> It's there, so obviously we do have some lore.
20160927 20:29:55< vultraz> "Green Isle. A bigger island lying in the Great Ocean." <- this is useless
20160927 20:30:01< celmin> Then fix it.
20160927 20:30:32< vultraz> I cannot worldbuild all by myself :|
20160927 20:31:10< celmin> Is there no more than that single sentence to be scraped from the mainline campaigns?
20160927 20:31:19< vultraz> This is why we have a writers forum, except we've never or rarely utilized the writers in it to come up with canon lore.
20160927 20:31:55< celmin> I can totally worldbuild all by myself, but since I haven't even finished most of the campaigns, it'd be hard for me to avoid contradictions.
20160927 20:32:15< vultraz> A George Lucas type, we need.
20160927 20:32:19-!- clavi [~clavi@163-172-10-77.rev.poneytelecom.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20160927 20:32:35< vultraz> Or perhaps G R R Martin
20160927 20:32:35-!- esr1 [~esr@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:32:36< celmin> Huh?
20160927 20:32:40-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:32:43-!- Aginor_ [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:32:59< vultraz> Ie, we need someone talented with worldbuilding to build up lore :P
20160927 20:33:04-!- esr [~esr@wesnoth/developer/esr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:33:06-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-182-34.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:33:06-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:33:06< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#11214 (master - 296902d : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build has errored.
20160927 20:33:06< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/163211039
20160927 20:33:06-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-182-34.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20160927 20:33:07-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 20:33:07-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:33:08-!- vincent_` [~bip@vcheng.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:33:13-!- vincent_c [~bip@vcheng.org] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:33:15-!- vincent_c is now known as vincent_`
20160927 20:33:18< celmin> So, like me?
20160927 20:33:38< vultraz> Are you talented at worldbuilding?
20160927 20:33:43< celmin> Probably?
20160927 20:33:57-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:34:13< celmin> I do a lot of it.
20160927 20:34:35< vultraz> Good, good
20160927 20:35:25< aeth> worldbuilding can be fun
20160927 20:35:33< celmin> I didn't really bother much with it in DruidSiege, admittedly.
20160927 20:35:41< vultraz> To be clear, I am not opposed to an encyclopedia (though I'd love for it to be accompanied by an interactive map that zooms around :P ). it's just that right now it has barely *anything* fun or useful.
20160927 20:35:42< aeth> I've just built a sci fi world. Off-topic for #wesnoth-dev though
20160927 20:35:58< celmin> My worlds are generally fantasy.
20160927 20:36:37< vultraz> "Old Continent: Lies to the west of Morogor across the Great Ocean." <- so much *potential*!
20160927 20:36:40< vultraz> wasted potential :|
20160927 20:36:41< aeth> celmin: sci fi and fantasy are basically the same thing except fantasy is set against vaguely LotRish stuff and sci fi is set in vaguely plausible space settings, generally.
20160927 20:37:02< aeth> Either world, I wind up with very similar themes.
20160927 20:37:10< celmin> Sort of, but I think "space fantasy" or "historical science fiction" are both totally possible too.
20160927 20:37:11< vultraz> there's so much more lore in TRoW that could go in here
20160927 20:37:14< aeth> Fantasy just uses magic instead of basically magical technology.
20160927 20:37:37< vultraz> ANd so much opportunity to develop the world's mythos, geography, and history
20160927 20:37:40< celmin> ie, setting it in space doesn't automatically make it science fiction
20160927 20:37:40< aeth> I mean, there's hard sci fi too, but really that's what should be its own genre, not sci fi in general.
20160927 20:37:54 * celmin would count Star Wars as space fantasy.
20160927 20:38:03< vultraz> hell, even zookeeper's map for the incorporation of the Khalifate counts as worldbuilding 
20160927 20:38:09< aeth> celmin: yes, but true space fantasy kind of died in the 1960s or so once people started figuring out there are no civilizations on the Moon or Mars, no air there, etc.
20160927 20:38:14< vultraz> except he's been working on that thing for about 4 years now
20160927 20:38:18< aeth> and all the space fantasy of Martian or Moon worlds kinda went away
20160927 20:38:19-!- _laco [~laco@static.183.80.201.138.clients.your-server.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:38:35< aeth> There is some space fantasy still. I attempted it with a Wesnoth add-on that required way too much art for me to complete
20160927 20:38:59< vultraz> 1960's space fantasy sucks :P
20160927 20:39:05< vultraz> all hail star wars
20160927 20:39:09< celmin> Not too long ago I wrote a short fantasy story on Mars. :P (Not quite the sort of thing you're thinking since it was a terraformed Mars, but still.)
20160927 20:39:27< aeth> I'm not really sure where you draw the line between space fantasy and very naively informed early sci fi, anyway.
20160927 20:39:36-!- clavi [~clavi@163-172-10-77.rev.poneytelecom.eu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:39:48< aeth> I guess space fantasy always has magic? Then Star Wars counts?
20160927 20:39:55< vultraz> shrug shrug
20160927 20:40:03< vultraz> I don't consider these things
20160927 20:40:05< celmin> Yes, Star Wars counts in my opinion.
20160927 20:40:10< vultraz> Though for the record
20160927 20:40:19< celmin> For me the difference between science fiction and fantasy mainly lies in how they try to describe the impossible things that happen.
20160927 20:40:19< aeth> Usually fantasy is historical, though, and the main difference between fantasy and historical fiction is magic, mythical animals, etc., imo
20160927 20:40:25< vultraz> the Star Wars EU/Legends stuff is a lot more fantasy than new canon
20160927 20:40:50< aeth> celmin: idk, I think good science fiction and fantasy tells stories as sort of parables... stuff that's not really *meant* to happen, but if you told it more directly it probably wouldn't be well-received.
20160927 20:40:55< celmin> If they explain them with magical or supernatural forces, I call it fantasy. If they try to use vaguely scientific explanations, I call it science fiction. It's not necessarily always clear, mind you.
20160927 20:41:06< vultraz> celmin has a point
20160927 20:41:11< aeth> So it's not about the impossible things, it's more about distancing ourselves from the present so the story's actually well-received.
20160927 20:41:13< vultraz> except SW hasboth
20160927 20:41:27< vultraz> *cues the midi-chlorians*
20160927 20:41:36< aeth> vultraz: technically, I think Star Wars is "space opera" or something
20160927 20:41:43< aeth> and it gives no attempt to really satisfyingly explain anything
20160927 20:41:49< vultraz> I have also heard that
20160927 20:41:56< vultraz> Except the new canon kinda does, though
20160927 20:41:59< celmin> It may not be about "impossible things", but they're a part of it.
20160927 20:42:01< celmin> Space opera, yeah, sure.
20160927 20:42:09< vultraz> Honestly, ditching the EU was a good move
20160927 20:42:15< vultraz> (unless you're the UK :P )
20160927 20:42:31< aeth> on the one hand there's the near future sci fi, or maybe something like 2001... then there's Star Trek where a lot of the things are plausible (e.g. tablet computers) and a lot are basically impossible (Klingons that look almost like humans and speak English, at least outside of the movies)
20160927 20:42:56< vultraz> there's also stuff like Mass Effect and Halo
20160927 20:42:56< celmin> Why are we talking about the EU...
20160927 20:42:57< aeth> Star Trek is kind of in the middle... it has artificial gravity without a plausible mechanism and it has FTL without a plausible mechanism, and a few things that don't really make sense, but it tries
20160927 20:43:04< celmin> There's also modern fantasy.
20160927 20:43:05< vultraz> celmin: Extended Universe :P
20160927 20:43:09< aeth> and then there's Star Wars, where nothing makes sense and the ships are implausibly huge and there's basically magic.
20160927 20:43:13< celmin> ie, fantasy set in the modern world/
20160927 20:43:25< vultraz> celmin: this is called YA Fiction :P
20160927 20:43:32< celmin> Oh yeah, I also think that ignoring the extended universe was a good idea.
20160927 20:43:34< celmin> vultraz: What?
20160927 20:43:53< aeth> oh, and Star Wars calls its FTL "light speed" or something.
20160927 20:43:59< vultraz> such stories usually fall under the Young Adult category 
20160927 20:44:07< celmin> aeth: The fact that Star Trek tries to plausibly explain things (even though it fails) is why I consider it definitely science fiction.
20160927 20:44:19< celmin> vultraz: I have no idea whether that's true or not and consider it irrelevant anyway.
20160927 20:44:21< aeth> Afaik, Star Wars is on purpose calling back to the implausible/impossible, naive early 20th century (and maybe even 19th century) sci fi
20160927 20:44:31-!- Aginor_ [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:44:37< vultraz> I wouldn't say so
20160927 20:44:43< aeth> celmin: yes, but it's far from perfect, especially post-TNG
20160927 20:44:49< celmin> Well good for you.
20160927 20:45:02-!- Grickit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:45:03< vultraz> have you seen the new Rebels cartoon?
20160927 20:45:08< aeth> and then the Star Trek reboot movies come and the ship designs are entirely different even *before* the event which alters history to split the timeline from TOS
20160927 20:45:09-!- vincent_` [~bip@vcheng.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:45:10-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:45:13-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 20:45:14-!- vincent_c [~bip@vcheng.org] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:45:18< aeth> I really couldn't get past the bridge design in the new Star Trek movie series
20160927 20:45:19< vultraz> (kinda irrelevant, I guess)
20160927 20:45:20< celmin> No idea what that is.
20160927 20:45:35< vultraz> aeth: I've only seen the new Star Trek movies
20160927 20:45:38< aeth> it'd make sense if they salvage future ships or something
20160927 20:45:38< celmin> The new Star Trek movie series isn't really Star Trek.
20160927 20:45:47< vultraz> I really like it
20160927 20:45:55< vultraz> have not seen the weird-looking old stuff
20160927 20:45:57< aeth> vultraz: it's a bit too Star Warsy for my taste
20160927 20:46:08< celmin> It's great as a standalone product, but it's utterly terrible as a Star Trek.
20160927 20:46:09< vultraz> exactly :D
20160927 20:46:20< aeth> vultraz: If you want to see the best of Star Trek movies see Star Trek IV and Star Trek: First Contact, and maybe Star Trek II.
20160927 20:46:28-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:46:34-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:46:34-!- atarocch_ [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20160927 20:46:40< aeth> Also a handful of good TNG episodes.
20160927 20:46:42-!- atarocch_ [~atarocch@88.131.217.34] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:46:49-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:47:02 * celmin seems to recall that there was a third new Star Trek?
20160927 20:47:02< aeth> First Contact is personally my favorite, as it's the only decent Star Trek movie with the TNG cast, and that's the one I grew up with (well, mostly in reruns, I'm a bit too young since I was born in 1990)
20160927 20:47:29-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:47:39< vultraz> celmin: yes, Star Trek: Beyond
20160927 20:47:44< celmin> I like Star Trek Generations for whatever reason. Might have something to do with it being the first Star Trek movie I saw.
20160927 20:47:48< aeth> Anyway, the Star Trek movies that hold up as sci fi movies in their own right instead of being kinda bad are Star Trek II, Star Trek IV, and Star Trek: First Contact.
20160927 20:47:56< aeth> There are some borderline ones, Generations is one of them
20160927 20:48:09< celmin> Which was the one where they go to the centre of the galaxy and encounter God?
20160927 20:48:14< aeth> V
20160927 20:48:20< aeth> "What does God need with a starship?"
20160927 20:48:35< aeth> not only is that a campy line, they repeated it several times and made it a key plot point
20160927 20:49:08< celmin> I also remember they found Zeus on a planet somewhere, but that was kinda better than the fifth movie, probably.
20160927 20:49:09< vultraz> all old sci-fi is campy
20160927 20:49:17< celmin> You're campy. :|
20160927 20:49:20-!- Aginor_ is now known as Aginor
20160927 20:49:21< vultraz> except Star Wars
20160927 20:49:26< vultraz> nothing can touch Star Wars
20160927 20:49:34-!- Aginor [~andreas@apollo.alternating.net] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 20:49:34-!- Aginor [~andreas@unaffiliated/aginor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 20:49:38< vultraz> (though the fight between Obi Wan and Vader in A New Hope is so bad :| )
20160927 20:50:07< aeth> vultraz: to be fair, if I'm going to be as harsh on Star Wars as I was on Star Trek, the only classic Star Wars is Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.
20160927 20:50:11< vultraz> TREMBLE IN FEAR, JEDI, AS I POKE YOU SOFTLY WITH THIS STICK
20160927 20:50:35< vultraz> whut
20160927 20:50:37< zookeeper> i've never been much of a trek fan, TNG is the only trek series i've really watched and wrath of khan is the only film i consider mandatory watching
20160927 20:50:37< aeth> Personally, I think the part at the beginning of V on Hoth is really poorly paced, but that might just be me judging it as a 2010s viewer with the current pacing expectations.
20160927 20:50:48< aeth> But otherwise, Star Wars Episode V is definitely the best.
20160927 20:51:01< aeth> As a little kid, VI was my favorite, but having watched them all again recently, V is the one that holds up
20160927 20:51:10< vultraz> i haven't seen the originals in awhile tbh
20160927 20:51:16< vultraz> or the prequels in awhile either
20160927 20:51:19< vultraz> but those are kinda bad :|
20160927 20:51:23< aeth> They didn't really age well.
20160927 20:51:31< vultraz> not terrible but not tHAT great
20160927 20:51:34< aeth> They were okay at the time, imo. The hate was a bit unjustified, except Episode I
20160927 20:51:35< vultraz> now, the new one...
20160927 20:51:37< vultraz> oh boy :D
20160927 20:51:38< aeth> But movies like that don't age well
20160927 20:51:39< vultraz> it's too good
20160927 20:51:49< vultraz> aeth: I think they aged very well
20160927 20:52:21< vultraz> along with such sci-fi classics like Back to the Future
20160927 20:52:34< aeth> Anyway, Star Trek II, IV, and First Contact and Star Wars IV and V are the ones I'd recommend from those.
20160927 20:52:43< vultraz> but really, have you seen TFA and the SW: Rebels cartoon?
20160927 20:52:59< vultraz> (TFA as in SW 7)
20160927 20:53:10< DeFender> ooh, this is a fun discussion
20160927 20:53:19< aeth> First Contact was on Syfy the other day and I happened to be watching TV so I watched Syfy for the first time in probably 10 years... First Contact actually held up, imo. I'm surprised.
20160927 20:53:24< aeth> I expected it to have not aged well.
20160927 20:53:29< aeth> A lot of TNG episodes didn't age well.
20160927 20:53:56< zookeeper> a lot of TNG is awfully cheesy
20160927 20:54:03< vultraz> again, haven't seen anything but new Star Trek
20160927 20:54:19< aeth> imo, skip season 1 altogether in TNG... half way through it's much better, and there are some good episodes before that.
20160927 20:54:37-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!]
20160927 20:54:39< vultraz> (do you guys realize how nerdy we're being right now :D )
20160927 20:54:51< aeth> the thing is, TNG is very episodic, much more so than most of today's TV shows... and so one episode can be an absolute classic followed by the next that's complete garbage that should be avoided at all costs
20160927 20:55:11< aeth> so it's strange watching it on e.g. Amazon, where it's all back to back to back, where there's a really nice show followed or proceded by a wtf show
20160927 20:55:13< vultraz> aeth: I enjoy serial, less-episodic TV shows more
20160927 20:55:26< DeFender> aeth, First Contact? The movie where they just copy the borg's deflector output to get home and somehow that doesn't mean they now know how to time travel? The movie where they use "the moon's gravitational field" to hide from the borg sensors? the movie where no one's motivations make any sort of sense? That held up in your opinion?
20160927 20:55:49< aeth> DeFender: I did notice the Moon part, that's the only part that was ridiculous imo
20160927 20:55:55< aeth> I wasn't bothered by the other parts, idk why.
20160927 20:56:07< DeFender> Don't get me wrong. I love pretty much all of star trek, the movies included, but some of the stuff was just BS as hell.
20160927 20:56:18< aeth> Usually I'm someone bothered by things that no one else is bothered by. e.g. I'm the only one that I know of who complains about the bridges in the new Star Trek movies.
20160927 20:56:21< DeFender> (I actually happen to be re-watching TNG literally as we speak.)
20160927 20:56:32< vultraz> I wonder if Game of Thrones is fantasy by celticminstrel's definition
20160927 20:56:37< DeFender> aeth, what about the bridges?
20160927 20:56:52< aeth> DeFender: the bridges are ridiculously designed in the new movies, even though it's supposed to be TOS era
20160927 20:57:02< vultraz> DeFender: maybe he dislikes LEEEENNSSS FLLAAARRREEES
20160927 20:57:08< zookeeper> vultraz, it's fantasy by anyone's definition
20160927 20:57:15< aeth> and there's no reason for this, the timeline is supposed to have diverged at the point of the Romulan time travel at the beginning of the movie, but the first ship already has the ridiculous new style bridges
20160927 20:57:17< celticminstrel> I haven't seen/read Game of Thrones.
20160927 20:57:42< vultraz> zookeeper: yes, but celticminstrel says fantasy must not be explained by logical means and instead be full of Magic
20160927 20:57:54< aeth> DeFender: tbh, I think Star Trek should have skipped forward a century to avoid gaping plot holes like bridge size issues while still being able to show off new sets and special effects
20160927 20:57:59< vultraz> zookeeper: which incidentally, is a thing I have lamented GoT doesn't have enough of 
20160927 20:58:01< aeth> because it's unavoidable that they'd want prettier and fancier sets
20160927 20:58:05< aeth> but that leads to major plot holes
20160927 20:58:24< vultraz> aeth: wait, I thought the new ST was a reboot
20160927 20:58:27< aeth> Although Voyager kind of ruined going to the future, I guess.
20160927 20:58:28< DeFender> aeth, what's the issue? that it's too much like the TOS bridge or too little?
20160927 20:58:33< vultraz> ie, you don't consider the old stuff
20160927 20:58:38< zookeeper> vultraz, you lament that it doesn't have enough logical explanation?
20160927 20:58:38< zookeeper> or that it has too much?
20160927 20:58:43< aeth> vultraz: no it's not a reboot, it's in a *new* timeline that's created by the Romulan time travel from TNG era Trek.
20160927 20:58:57< vultraz> zookeeper: not enough Mystical Magic of Mysterious McGuffinness
20160927 20:59:06< aeth> vultraz: which means that the sets should be identical (in scale at least) to TOS-era ships, at least until the diverging timeline
20160927 20:59:25< zookeeper> vultraz, right
20160927 20:59:26< vultraz> but there's time travel in the very first movie
20160927 20:59:31< aeth> DeFender: the bridges in the new Treks are much larger than the bridges in *any* Trek, including Trek set far into the future
20160927 20:59:43< DeFender> aeth, ah, Voyager. The worst series of all. Which is sad, because it had some REALLY good episodes mixed in with all the crap. Nemesis was EXCELLENT. (The voyager episode, not the movie of the same name)
20160927 20:59:46< vultraz> aeth: also you're complaining about a meta-issue :|
20160927 20:59:46< aeth> vultraz: the bridges are much larger *before* the time travel splits the timeline
20160927 20:59:58< celticminstrel> I would classify Artemis Fowl as fantasy, probably.
20160927 21:00:02< vultraz> aeth: are you saying we should have tiny-ass bridges
20160927 21:00:07< DeFender> aeth, doesn't bother me. they diverged the timeline. ANYTHING can happen.
20160927 21:00:14< aeth> vultraz: at least until they explain how the time travel leads to larger bridges
20160927 21:00:21< vultraz> aeth: you nitpick too much :|
20160927 21:00:25< aeth> DeFender: but the bridges were larger *before* the timeline diverges with the Romulan time travel.
20160927 21:00:33-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 21:00:37< zookeeper> anyway, WRT worldbuilding: what we're basically lacking is someone to write stuff down while filling in some gaps where needed. coming up with new stuff that doesn't directly connect with any existing campaign lore isn't very useful, unless it fills a currently unexplained gap.
20160927 21:00:46< aeth> DeFender: iirc, in the first scene of the first new movie they *already* have the huge bridges, before the timeline is supposed to have diverged
20160927 21:00:55< aeth> this is something that worldbuilders should take into account
20160927 21:00:58< vultraz> aeth: this is like complaining that the tech in the SW original trilogy looks worse than in the prequel trilogy 
20160927 21:01:00< DeFender> (Though, given that the events of Enterprise take place before the timeline split, and that those events were influenced by the main timeline's future, the timeline split doesn't really follow, but whatever, wibbly wobbly paradox blah blah.)
20160927 21:01:25< celticminstrel> My messages are getting lost in the flood now, huh.
20160927 21:01:29< loonycyborg> I think we should have some sort of wiki with all details on lore items
20160927 21:01:37< aeth> vultraz: to be fair, the original trilogy takes place at the edge of the empire, after decades of probable stagnation due to crushing taxes to build superweapons
20160927 21:01:38< vultraz> celticminstrel: never read Fowl. heard of it, though
20160927 21:01:41< loonycyborg> with cross reference to campaigns and stuff :P
20160927 21:01:42< DeFender> aeth, stylistic changes don't bother me as much either. They're not plotholes so much as better window dressing.
20160927 21:01:52< aeth> vultraz: go to the edges of a galaxy and you'll probably see decades older technology
20160927 21:02:06< DeFender> aeth, for example, the communicators and scanners in Enterprise are smaller than those in TOS.
20160927 21:02:07< vultraz> celticminstrel: most of my fantasy reading recently has been The Mortal Instruments/The Infernal Devices/The Dark Artifices
20160927 21:02:10< celticminstrel> vultraz: I bring it up because it has a lot of scientific explanations for magical stuff IIRC.
20160927 21:02:19< vultraz> aeth: but look in Star Wars: Rebels, this is not true
20160927 21:02:21< aeth> DeFender: idk, I guess as someone who does a lot of visual things, a visual plothole is more annoying to me
20160927 21:02:24< celticminstrel> Though it never quite explains what "magic" is.
20160927 21:02:27< vultraz> aeth: even on Lothal
20160927 21:02:35< aeth> vultraz: so Star Wars Rebels creates new plotholes, great
20160927 21:02:37< DeFender> aeth, did TNG klingons bother you?
20160927 21:02:45< vultraz> aeth: you're way too meta :|
20160927 21:02:54< aeth> DeFender: yes, a bit
20160927 21:03:02< celticminstrel> zookeeper: Is there some kind of list of gaps to fill?
20160927 21:03:07< aeth> DeFender: it didn't bother me as much though because I grew up on TNG and Voyager, though.
20160927 21:03:14< celticminstrel> Other than looking at the encyclopedia and expanding on stuff there.
20160927 21:03:15< aeth> If I grew up on TOS it would probably have really bothered me.
20160927 21:03:19< vultraz> aeth: i mean, sure, tech is a little more primitive on outer rim worlds, but the empire is still powerful a'f and any place with the empire around is pretty sophisticated
20160927 21:03:41< vultraz> aeth: I guess places where the empire isn't is pretty primitive
20160927 21:03:44< aeth> vultraz: right, so by trying to fix the plotholes they created more
20160927 21:03:51< vultraz> aeth: we don't really see that much, though
20160927 21:04:01< aeth> vultraz: although technically Tatooine and Hoth aren't part of the empire, and also the cloud city too
20160927 21:04:08< celticminstrel> aeth, DeFender: The change in the klingons didn't bother me so much as the fact that they had one episode explicitly draw attention to it.
20160927 21:04:23< aeth> I think Tatooine is a Hutt-run vassal or something? And Hoth was specifically chosen to be remote and uninhabited.
20160927 21:04:25< vultraz> aeth: but in the original trilogy, they had the Death Star and their Star Destroyers which look older
20160927 21:04:29 * celticminstrel suspects that episode might've actually reused some original series footage.
20160927 21:04:48< vultraz> aeth: than ships in the prequels 
20160927 21:04:53< vultraz> aeth: at least i think
20160927 21:04:54< DeFender> aeth, for me, it wouldn't have been a problem were it not for Trials and Tribbleations which made it canon that it was not merely a stylistic change, but an in-universe thing. (And then enterprise tried to explain it fully and their answer left some large questions open)
20160927 21:04:55< aeth> vultraz: the ships were my least favorite part of the prequel trilogy because of the economic implausibility of scrapping all of those ships and replacing them with the original trilogy ships in just a few decades
20160927 21:05:09< vultraz> aeth: don't consider such things!
20160927 21:05:13< aeth> vultraz: at least Star Trek has older ships still in service, and spaces out its generations by 100 years
20160927 21:05:20< vultraz> aeth: also some they just repainted
20160927 21:05:22< celticminstrel> DeFender: Yeah, exactly that.
20160927 21:05:43< zookeeper> celticminstrel, a list? besides, there's no obvious criteria saying what's a gap and what isn't. it's like missing evolutionary links; fill one gap and you've created two more :p
20160927 21:05:49< aeth> DeFender: yes, Trials and Tribbleations fixed it, but that was kind of late into the change
20160927 21:05:51< celticminstrel> Heh.
20160927 21:06:07< celticminstrel> aeth: What do you mean by "fixed"?
20160927 21:06:11< vultraz> aeth: but if you watch Rebels you'll see the empire makes it hard for people in certain places and i'm sure they have a lot of money and slave labor
20160927 21:06:15< aeth> celticminstrel: filled a plot hole
20160927 21:06:27< celticminstrel> How did it fill a plot hole?
20160927 21:06:36< celticminstrel> It made everything worse IMO.
20160927 21:06:37< aeth> vultraz: anyway, Star Wars imo is the kind of story universe where the more you think about it the less it makes sense
20160927 21:06:48< aeth> so Star Wars doesn't really bother me with plotholes and inconsistancies because I try not to think about it
20160927 21:07:03< vultraz> aeth: which is why it'd good they ditched the EU so they can tell a more concise story
20160927 21:07:03< aeth> it has more plotholes and issues, and fills them less imo
20160927 21:07:16< aeth> Ditching the EU maybe they can fill some plotholes better
20160927 21:07:54< aeth> I think Star Wars Episode IV is better as a movie than any Star Trek movie, but as a universe, the Star Wars universe has way too many issues, especially because of the mess of the prequels.
20160927 21:08:19< vultraz> MESA DISAGREESA
20160927 21:08:23< aeth> i.e. Star Wars fails at the worldbuilding part, especially when you depart from the original trilogy
20160927 21:08:44< vultraz> imean, the eu sounds like a huge mess
20160927 21:08:45< celticminstrel> /me recalls reading somewhere an elaborate theory about how Jar-Jar Binx was secretly a Sith.
20160927 21:08:56< celticminstrel> Blah, command fail.
20160927 21:08:58< vultraz> celticminstrel: *Binks*
20160927 21:08:58< aeth> even though the EU hurt with the plotholes, the EU had some novels that were better than any (afaik) comparable Trek novels, though.
20160927 21:09:08< aeth> So I guess Star Wars just focuses on the story, rather than making sense
20160927 21:09:11< vultraz> aeth: there are also new canon novels too
20160927 21:09:17< celticminstrel> vultraz: Whatever.
20160927 21:09:19< vultraz> aeth: and sometimes that's a food thing
20160927 21:09:24< aeth> vultraz: I'm not sure if any of those new ones were well-received
20160927 21:09:25< DeFender> celticminstrel, what aeth is saying is that he considers visual changes to be plotholes, and that therefore some sort of acknowledgement or explanation is better than none. I take the opposite approach, that it's a story being told, and the exact visual presentation is not necessarily the same level of canon as the story itself. (For example, if I saw a play and its sequel and they used different sets and actors, I wouldn't 
20160927 21:09:27< DeFender> complain.)
20160927 21:09:30< vultraz> celticminstrel: and yes, that was a fan theory that was proven false
20160927 21:09:39 * celticminstrel is with DeFender on that one.
20160927 21:09:45< celticminstrel> vultraz: Oh? Where was it proven false?
20160927 21:09:50< aeth> DeFender: If the bridges were comparable in the new Star Treks to the TOS bridges, but just looked prettier, I would ignore it.
20160927 21:10:00< vultraz> celticminstrel: JJ Abrams IIRC
20160927 21:10:02< aeth> DeFender: But the bridges in the new Star Treks were functionally considerably different and much larger
20160927 21:10:14< celticminstrel> Eh, Word of God huh. :/
20160927 21:10:16< DeFender> aeth, but does that have any bearing on the plot?
20160927 21:10:16< aeth> completely different universes even though the timelines were supposed to have been recently diverged
20160927 21:10:20< vultraz> aeth: you are the only one who cares about this :P
20160927 21:10:25< zookeeper> the prequels broke SW beyond repair if you consider them canon, so i just don't
20160927 21:10:37< aeth> vultraz: because I'm a level designer damn it and if levels have to make sense then movie sets should too
20160927 21:10:38< vultraz> zookeeper: pfft :|
20160927 21:10:55< aeth> vultraz: if I specialized in making Hollywood costumes the costumes would be the thing that bothered me the most
20160927 21:10:59< zookeeper> aeth, the new treks are also a reboot of sorts, so visual inconsistency shouldn't be a problem
20160927 21:11:04< loonycyborg> both star trek and star wars are utterly inconsistent as far as worldbuilding is concerned
20160927 21:11:12< aeth> zookeeper: they're supposed to be a divergent timeline, not a reboot
20160927 21:11:16< vultraz> aeth: you should question wesnoth's logic then. How can a ground-based unit hit flying units with melee weapons? why are houses called villages?
20160927 21:11:23< zookeeper> aeth, source?
20160927 21:11:26< aeth> the sets diverge considerably before the timelines are supposed to have diverged. this is a plothole.
20160927 21:11:40< vultraz> aeth: why are people taller than houses?
20160927 21:11:41 * celticminstrel considers the prequels (mostly?) canon.
20160927 21:11:42< aeth> zookeeper: Memory-Alpha. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Main
20160927 21:12:01< vultraz> celticminstrel: if the writers say Binks isn't a sith lord it's true
20160927 21:12:13< celticminstrel> Not entirely.
20160927 21:12:25< vultraz> celticminstrel: there are other good fan theories that might be proven true in E8 onwards, though
20160927 21:12:38< zookeeper> aeth, i mean has abrams or whoever else stated that it's not also a reboot?
20160927 21:12:42< aeth> zookeeper: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_reality
20160927 21:12:45< celticminstrel> Consider the hypothetical case where the writer says that Binks is not a sith lord, then later says he actually is.
20160927 21:12:48< vultraz> celticminstrel: I've seen some interesting ones about Snoke being Mace Windu and Rey being Palpetine's granddaughter
20160927 21:13:01< aeth> the alternate reality is *created* by Nero's time travel, but it's already different *before* Nero's time travel.
20160927 21:13:06< aeth> ergo, major plot hole
20160927 21:13:12< celticminstrel> Pretty sure Rey is the Han Solo's and Leia's daughter..
20160927 21:13:24< vultraz> aeth: I do not want to see old-ass set design pre-time travel :P
20160927 21:13:29< vultraz> celticminstrel: oh my god :|
20160927 21:13:37< vultraz> celticminstrel: that was Ben AKA Kylo Ren :|
20160927 21:13:42< celticminstrel> ^-the
20160927 21:13:42< zookeeper> aeth, well that's a fan-created site is it not?
20160927 21:13:56< celticminstrel> I might just be misremembering something.
20160927 21:14:07< vultraz> celticminstrel: Rey's parents are unknown but everyone assume she's a Skywalker
20160927 21:14:12< aeth> zookeeper: wikis generally keep track of such canon issues better than the franchises themselves
20160927 21:14:20< aeth> because fans watch everything, new writers do not
20160927 21:14:21< vultraz> but we won't know until episode 8
20160927 21:14:27< celticminstrel> Yeah okay, I probably just got confused. :P It was awhile ago.
20160927 21:14:35< aeth> vultraz: what they should have done is keep the same *layout*, size, number of crew, etc., for the bridge even if the actual set was still much nicer/cleaner
20160927 21:14:36< vultraz> it was less than a year ago :|
20160927 21:14:49< celticminstrel> That's quite awhile!
20160927 21:14:50< vultraz> aeth: eh, whatever. maybe
20160927 21:14:59< aeth> vultraz: the whole point of Star Trek is the bridge just like the whole point of e.g. Stargate is the stargate and the whole point of BSG is the titular ship
20160927 21:15:06< zookeeper> aeth, that doesn't mean they're an authority of whether something can/should be considered a reboot or not
20160927 21:15:22< aeth> vultraz: the bridge being very different is a major issue because the bridge *is* Star Trek
20160927 21:15:23< vultraz> aeth: Stargate succkkssss
20160927 21:15:27< vultraz> well, the first movie at least
20160927 21:15:33< vultraz> I can't take it seriously after that
20160927 21:15:56< aeth> vultraz: Stargate's all about the series, which is very different from the movie. I am ignoring the rebooted movies because they brought on the original movie people rather than the series people so it'll be terrible (is it out yet?)
20160927 21:16:02< celticminstrel> The first movie is not entirely canonically linked to the series.
20160927 21:16:08< vultraz> aeth: you kinda have a point but since i never saw the old movies/shows i can't be bothered to care :P
20160927 21:16:15< celticminstrel> Sure the series references it, but there are inconsistencies between them.
20160927 21:16:30< aeth> vultraz: although to be fair there is one qualification in that TNG did also make the engineering area as important as the bridge
20160927 21:16:41< aeth> but really, it's a lowish budget TV show set around one area
20160927 21:16:50< vultraz> yes
20160927 21:16:52< aeth> that's why I brought up Stargate, which is mostly set around SGC, in particular the room where the Stargate is
20160927 21:16:56< vultraz> and that's annoying
20160927 21:17:05< vultraz> there's only *so much* one can do in one set
20160927 21:17:22< vultraz> which is partly why Game of Thrones is so awesome
20160927 21:17:22< aeth> If you remake Stargate, go ahead and redesign the set. If you reboot it and claim to be in the same universe, but the set was *completely* different, it would make no sense at all.
20160927 21:17:24< vultraz> it has MANy sets
20160927 21:17:27< aeth> That's probably the best analogy I can come up with
20160927 21:18:04< vultraz> aeth: "We hired an interior decorator" :P
20160927 21:18:05< aeth> Star Trek reboots claim to be in the same universe, until the point of divergence, which happens in the first reboot film
20160927 21:18:23< vultraz> "We rebuilt the bridge"
20160927 21:18:28< aeth> ugh
20160927 21:18:28< vultraz> so many ways to explain it away
20160927 21:18:30< loonycyborg> new star trek is total trainwreck
20160927 21:18:39< aeth> vultraz: but Star Trek's bridge just looks better than anything even Voyager had
20160927 21:18:49< vultraz> loonycyborg: but it has the great and mighty Benedict Cumberbatch!
20160927 21:18:52< aeth> vultraz: they could have handwaved it away as salvaged future tech but they did *not*
20160927 21:18:55< loonycyborg> I saw it on tv, it's basically generic hollywood movie 11305
20160927 21:18:57-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368841.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 21:18:58< celticminstrel> loonycyborg: Heh
20160927 21:19:01< aeth> they didn't even care about filling the plot hole... that is *not* how Star Trek should work
20160927 21:19:10< aeth> they could have hand-waved it in about 3 minutes or less
20160927 21:19:13< aeth> even one line
20160927 21:19:35< aeth> instead, now if they wanted to fill it, they'd have to retcon parts of the movie
20160927 21:19:40< aeth> missed opportunity
20160927 21:21:04< aeth> vultraz: anyway, my point is, they didn't need to make the main Enterprise bridge different at all, they *only* needed to make the bridge in the first scene different, and then handwave the newer Enterprise as salvaged future tech or something
20160927 21:21:04< zookeeper> or one can just accept that while it's the same universe, they rebooted the visuals and bridge layout and whatnot while only keeping the characters, story etc.
20160927 21:21:38< aeth> ugh
20160927 21:21:55< aeth> that's not how you worldbuild imo
20160927 21:21:58< zookeeper> but i'll wholeheartedly agree that the new treks are very disappointing and uninteresting
20160927 21:22:01< zookeeper> generic space action romps
20160927 21:22:25< zookeeper> obviously they weren't worldbuilding
20160927 21:22:25< aeth> zookeeper: anyway, I think the main issue is that they didn't even try to fill the plotholes...
20160927 21:22:34< aeth> Star Trek had some bad handwaving sometimes but it always tried
20160927 21:22:39< aeth> that's what made it different
20160927 21:23:20< zookeeper> the first film i wasn't a fan of but i didn't feel like it was very bad either, but into darkness was just dorky, haven't even seen the third because of into darkness and because of its dorky trailer
20160927 21:23:26-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20160927 21:23:35< aeth> I guess games are better than movies because (1) you can spend more time building the world and the time experiencing it is longer, (2) the medium is interactive, and (3) no one cares if you retcon the older games with patches to bring them inline, unlike e.g. George Lucas editing the original trilogy
20160927 21:24:12 * celticminstrel had no problems with Lucas editing the original trilogy, but that might just be because I never saw the unedited version.
20160927 21:24:14-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-189-115.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20160927 21:24:34< zookeeper> when did lucas make a non-vfx edit to the OT that wasn't pointless?
20160927 21:24:53< aeth> celticminstrel: people probably wouldn't have minded as much if (1) CG was better at the time... the CG remakes didn't age well, (2) Episode 1 was decent... it wasn't, and (3) Han shot first
20160927 21:24:57< celticminstrel> Pretty sure it was just a visual effects edit...
20160927 21:25:12< aeth> I really respect the idea of editing the ending of Episode VI so it ended the prequels too
20160927 21:25:15< aeth> the idea was good
20160927 21:25:19 * celticminstrel has no idea what is meant by #3
20160927 21:25:20< aeth> but ideas don't matter, execution does
20160927 21:25:33< aeth> celticminstrel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_shot_first
20160927 21:25:38< aeth> Yes, it has its own Wikipedia article
20160927 21:25:43< celticminstrel> :|
20160927 21:26:03< zookeeper> i can't think of any changes in special edition or later which actually were good from a story/worldbuilding/consistency/etc point
20160927 21:26:23< aeth> I would like to see the remakes be remade because the CG tech was terrible and so the CG additions stand out considerably in the original trilogy
20160927 21:26:27< aeth> even if nothing else changed
20160927 21:26:30< zookeeper> i have a lingering recollection that there was a brief added shot or something that i agree with, but can't remember which ones
20160927 21:26:46< aeth> 1990s CG was mostly bad, and the CG in the original trilogy was actually worse than some contemporary Hollywood CG afaik.
20160927 21:27:41< aeth> zookeeper: two things could have been good... (1) adding more detail to the walking around scenes, e.g. animals and (2) the Jabba the Hutt deleted scene in IV
20160927 21:28:01< aeth> but they messed up #1 and the computer generated Jabba just wasn't that good for #2
20160927 21:28:22< celticminstrel> Deleted scene? Not added?
20160927 21:28:25< aeth> In fact, a lot of the little things are bad because the graphics didn't age as well as the 1970s/1980s practical effects
20160927 21:28:38< aeth> celticminstrel: the scene had existed, but Jabba had to be inserted/completed
20160927 21:28:46< aeth> i.e. Han Solo speaking was actually from the time
20160927 21:29:00< aeth> I actually think that was kind of cool, how they could complete the deleted scene
20160927 21:29:18< celticminstrel> So the scene where Han steps on Jabba's tail, but he doesn't actually get mad.
20160927 21:29:47< aeth> right, the computer graphics are pretty bad there, but I didn't mind them adding the scene because I like it when deleted scenes are added back.
20160927 21:29:51< aeth> I like director's cuts.
20160927 21:29:55< DeFender> aeth, it was more than that. "Hutt" was apparently originally a title, not a species, and Jabba was a fat scottish dude.
20160927 21:30:11< DeFender> There are copies of the unedited scene floating around youtube.
20160927 21:30:18< aeth> DeFender: Darth was originally a first name afaik. Obi Wan refers to Darth Vader as "Darth"
20160927 21:30:46< aeth> lots of stuff changed in Star Wars over time
20160927 21:31:25< DeFender> I honestly always loved that addition in the remasters (which is possibly the only addition i liked), because I loved how deadpan han is when he says "you're a wonderful human being", and the sarcasm was perfect.
20160927 21:31:33< aeth> yes
20160927 21:31:38< DeFender> Then I learned that it was so dead-on because it wasn't originally sarcastic!
20160927 21:32:07< DeFender> or rather, the line as a whole was, but the "human being" part wasn't.
20160927 21:32:08< zookeeper> aeth, sure it was kind of neatly done, but it's also a bit of a pointless scene and i don't think showing jabba in IV in a throwaway scene makes sense.
20160927 21:32:43< aeth> DeFender: possibly the only revision that was done well? wow
20160927 21:32:57< DeFender> aeth, you don't agree?
20160927 21:33:03< aeth> zookeeper: yeah but for the most part if you're watching a movie, you're watching it because you're a fan and you don't mind sacrificing the pacing to see more stuff
20160927 21:33:10< aeth> e.g. the longer version of LotR
20160927 21:33:20< aeth> of course, I think LotR still sold the theatrical version, unlike Star Wars
20160927 21:33:39< aeth> It's less the case now with online streaming, but was definitely the case with VHS and DVD purchases.
20160927 21:33:41< zookeeper> if you consider the whole trilogy, and jabba is mentioned several times in V and a villain in VI, it's better to save the reveal to VI.
20160927 21:34:11< aeth> DeFender: no, I do agree
20160927 21:34:12< aeth> I think?
20160927 21:34:34< aeth> zookeeper: Jabba was never really the main villain, though
20160927 21:34:47< zookeeper> aeth, of course?
20160927 21:34:48< DeFender> aeth, i'm not sure who means what at this point, and should probably be in bed.
20160927 21:34:50< aeth> and speaking of Jabba in VI, that's where the really bad and noticable additions were
20160927 21:35:03< aeth> The only additions I really cringed over were in Episode VI when I was watching it last year or so
20160927 21:35:15< zookeeper> we do not talk about the song scene
20160927 21:35:19< aeth> that was the worst
20160927 21:35:29< aeth> forget Han shot first, that's nitpicking like me with the bridges in Star Trek
20160927 21:35:42< aeth> an actual bad scene that's painful to sit through being added... that's just bad for everyone
20160927 21:36:38< zookeeper> ohh, the scene i approve of: luke, biggs and red leader on yavin. that was the one.
20160927 21:37:18< DeFender> argh, that stupid rapping cockroach!
20160927 21:37:42< DeFender> i did kinda like the new version of the ewok victory song though.
20160927 21:37:52< DeFender> (Liked the old version too.)
20160927 21:38:23< aeth> hmm, actually I wonder if my problems with Episode V pacing were due to deleted scenes being added at the start... I wonder if any were
20160927 21:38:36< aeth> because I really didn't like how slow the Hoth start was considering how unimportant Hoth is
20160927 21:38:45< aeth> (besides the battle, I mean)
20160927 21:38:52< DeFender> aeth, pretty sure hoth was more or less left intact.
20160927 21:38:56< aeth> oh, okay
20160927 21:39:06< aeth> well that was the one issue I had with V... the start was too slow
20160927 21:39:17< aeth> modern audiences would probably have issues with slow starting action movies like that
20160927 21:39:30< aeth> strangely, I don't mind other slow movies from the 1970s and early 1980s
20160927 21:39:42< aeth> I guess my expectations are different for Star Wars
20160927 21:39:59< zookeeper> old films shouldn't be tampered with. if you want to re-release with color balance fixes or making lightsabers look more consistent then whatever, but when you make stupid dialogue tweaks or add "noooooooo!" screams then... well then you're a lucas and shouldn't be let anywhere near old films. :J
20160927 21:40:32< DeFender> zookeeper, or add CGI creatures to every unused area of background just because you can.
20160927 21:40:49< aeth> zookeeper: if they had billed it as a Director's Cut or whatever, no one would care about complaining, it's that they made the old versions inaccessible. The ones people like me watched as little kids on VHS in the early 90s, or the ones people older than me saw in the theaters.
20160927 21:41:38< aeth> which is strange, too, because superfans would probably buy them *both* on Blu Ray, and they'd make twice as much money from them... and Star Wars probably has the most superfans of any fandom
20160927 21:41:39< DeFender> aeth, you're aware that the 90s VHS rereleases were already tampered with, right?
20160927 21:41:48< zookeeper> aeth, yeah. it's sordid that one has to watch fan-made edits.
20160927 21:42:15< DeFender> not anymore... didn't disney actually release the original theatrical version on blu ray?
20160927 21:42:24< aeth> not sure
20160927 21:42:27< aeth> I haven't kept up with it
20160927 21:42:52< zookeeper> ESB has a slow start? that's news to me. fighting starts at 25 minutes, and there's some fun stuff before that already.
20160927 21:42:53< aeth> I'll probably binge read about Star Wars around the time of the new movie, each new movie
20160927 21:43:04< aeth> I haven't gone to Wookiepedia since I saw the last movie
20160927 21:43:26< aeth> zookeeper: at least that was my impression
20160927 21:43:38< aeth> there's a lot of nothing in the snow at the start
20160927 21:43:53< aeth> yes, there is a few scenes before the battle that have action, but also a few scenes that serve no (imo) purpose
20160927 21:45:00< aeth> it's been at least a year so I'm not sure about the details
20160927 21:46:08< aeth> oh, speaking of Star Wars, at least from the trailer, Rogue One looks like it does a good job of actually being set around the time of Episode IV, even though it's a 2016 movie.
20160927 21:46:22< aeth> apparently it even uses the same siren sound effect from Episode IV
20160927 21:48:27< aeth> I'll have to see the movie to see if it works
20160927 21:54:01< zookeeper> yeah it looks pretty promising
20160927 21:54:51< celticminstrel> Anyway zookeeper, if there's no list, how does one go about finding places that need worldbuilding/lore? Presumably some people have some ideas of what needs work.
20160927 21:57:08-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.105.90] has quit [Quit: Salve a tutti]
20160927 21:59:47< zookeeper> celticminstrel, well the discussion started from the encyclopedia and some stub entries in it?
20160927 21:59:47< zookeeper> so expanding the encyclopedia seems like a good start
20160927 22:00:36< zookeeper> one final word on SW: terrible as the prequels are, it is interesting to think how big of a service their existence ultimately is. they're a really prominent and critiqued-to-death warning example of what not to do.
20160927 22:01:38< zookeeper> i think one can be pretty sure that for example TFA was as good as it was because it knew what not to be
20160927 22:06:30-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:06:46< vultraz_iOS> Of course my power had to go out in the middle of an interesting conversation
20160927 22:06:50< vultraz_iOS> :p
20160927 22:06:57< vultraz_iOS> *is at breakfast*
20160927 22:10:30-!- Porto [~Mutter@143.179.13.171] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:13:10-!- Porto [~Mutter@143.179.13.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 22:17:40-!- irker474 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:17:40< irker474> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:formula_set_variable 3b1237af9dcc / changelog data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Add formula= option to [set_variable] https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3b1237af9dcc54723345de6b6fd46850032900e7
20160927 22:17:42< celticminstrel> ^ Branch because untested
20160927 22:18:20-!- prkc [~prkc@46.166.190.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 22:29:19< vultraz_iOS> Looks pretty simple
20160927 22:30:25< celticminstrel> Yup.
20160927 22:30:39< celticminstrel> I'll probably test it at some point.
20160927 22:30:39< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: I was supposed to remind you to work on something ...
20160927 22:30:50< celticminstrel> The menu fix?
20160927 22:31:00< vultraz_iOS> The menu button / drop down crash I think
20160927 22:31:17< vultraz_iOS> I consider that critical
20160927 22:31:43< vultraz_iOS> For the release especially if we intend to utilize the new mp staging dialog
20160927 22:32:03< vultraz_iOS> Please work on it
20160927 22:32:30 * celticminstrel pulls and sets MSVC building.
20160927 22:32:51< celticminstrel> So, I have no idea what most of these places are off the top of my head - Arkan-thoria, the Green Isle, etc.
20160927 22:33:25< celticminstrel> Morogor.
20160927 22:33:25< vultraz_iOS> The Green Isle is the setting of TRoW
20160927 22:33:29< celticminstrel> (Remonds me of Mordor.)
20160927 22:33:34< celticminstrel> ^reminds
20160927 22:33:41< vultraz_iOS> Mor Igor is an island between that and the Great Continent
20160927 22:33:47< vultraz_iOS> You visit it in TRoW
20160927 22:33:51< vultraz_iOS> For a scenario
20160927 22:33:54< vultraz_iOS> There be drakes
20160927 22:33:58< celticminstrel> It distinctly says Morogor, not Mor Igor.
20160927 22:34:07< vultraz_iOS> Autocorrect
20160927 22:34:20< vultraz_iOS> You see the iOS suffix by my name, do you not :p
20160927 22:34:24< celticminstrel> Oh, right, okay, got it.
20160927 22:34:33< celticminstrel> iVultraz. :P
20160927 22:34:46 * celticminstrel uses iCelmin on iOS.
20160927 22:35:15< celticminstrel> (And the device itself is called iMinstrel.)
20160927 22:35:30< vultraz_iOS> Arkan Thoria is a dwarven thing
20160927 22:35:33< vultraz_iOS> Can't remember what
20160927 22:35:57< celticminstrel> encyclopedia/drakes.txt what the heck is that
20160927 22:36:07< vultraz_iOS> Possibly a Moria-esq place
20160927 22:36:21< zookeeper> ...it's a river
20160927 22:36:22< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: used to be in the encyclopedia
20160927 22:36:23< celticminstrel> No no no it's a river.
20160927 22:36:30< celticminstrel> So why is it no longer?
20160927 22:36:34< vultraz_iOS> Not in the race description
20160927 22:36:40< celticminstrel> What?
20160927 22:36:46< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper deemed it non-canon or something
20160927 22:36:51< celticminstrel> What?
20160927 22:36:57< vultraz_iOS> Ask him
20160927 22:37:42< celticminstrel> To a large extent it seems to be just a glossary.
20160927 22:37:52< vultraz_iOS> Possibly
20160927 22:38:01< vultraz_iOS> Haven't looked in awhile
20160927 22:38:23< vultraz_iOS> It was renamed a text file since we don't have wml comment blocks to comment it out
20160927 22:38:33< zookeeper> celticminstrel, if you're looking to do some worldbuilding then of course you have to know the current lore and geography and history and all that to some degree at least
20160927 22:38:35< celticminstrel> So drakes come from Morogor?
20160927 22:38:42-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ChipmunkV]
20160927 22:38:44< vultraz_iOS> Not really
20160927 22:38:44< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: We totally have WML comment blocks!
20160927 22:38:54< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: wat
20160927 22:38:55< celticminstrel> zookeeper: Obviously.
20160927 22:39:02< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: what is this
20160927 22:39:06< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: Same way as C/C++ does,
20160927 22:39:11< celticminstrel> #ifdef NOTHING
20160927 22:39:17< celticminstrel> #endif
20160927 22:39:20< vultraz_iOS> Face palm
20160927 22:39:33< celticminstrel> :P
20160927 22:39:52< celticminstrel> (But for commenting out a whole file it's probably more effective to rename it.)
20160927 22:39:55< zookeeper> yes, drakes come from morogor, but it's unknown whether they really originally originate from there and/or whether there's other drake populations elsewhere by the time they migrate off of morogor.
20160927 22:39:55< vultraz_iOS> That's not a comment block that's a preprocessor check
20160927 22:40:02-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20160927 22:40:09< shadowm> It was renamed to a text file so it wouldn't be seen by wmlxgettext when generating translation catalogues.
20160927 22:40:19< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: but morogor is a tiny-ass island
20160927 22:40:21< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: It's effectively the same thing if you're testing something that's never set.
20160927 22:40:23< vultraz_iOS> :|
20160927 22:40:34< vultraz_iOS> Anyway, I'm going
20160927 22:40:37< vultraz_iOS> I shall return
20160927 22:40:38< vultraz_iOS> Later
20160927 22:40:44< shadowm> celticminstrel: Not for wmlxgettext.
20160927 22:40:47< celticminstrel> It says here that it's an archipelago, not an island.
20160927 22:40:49< zookeeper> vultraz_iOS, IIRC we don't know how small exactly it is
20160927 22:40:56< celticminstrel> shadowm: Yes, actually I thought of that too.
20160927 22:41:06< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: the map makes it look pretty damn small
20160927 22:41:16< zookeeper> sure
20160927 22:41:18-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.242.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20160927 22:41:38< celticminstrel> shadowm: Though for wmlxgettext you could probably change the textdomain to something that's not going to be used, or something.
20160927 22:42:10< celticminstrel> So basically I should play some Wesnoth.
20160927 22:42:13< shadowm> Probably, and then people would keep trying to change it back to the "correct" textdomain every once in a while.
20160927 22:42:20< celticminstrel> Particularly TRoW.
20160927 22:42:21-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20160927 22:42:32< celticminstrel> shadowm: Heh, maybe
20160927 22:42:35< zookeeper> maybe it is small, and the drake population there is really small
20160927 22:42:35< zookeeper> this is the kind of stuff someone who writes lore about it has to know and be able to take into account
20160927 22:45:01-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:45:10< celticminstrel> It'd be cool to have a huge map somewhere with everything (in help or something), but I guess that's probably asking a bit too much.
20160927 22:46:14< zookeeper> it'd be nice to have a huge map and underneath it a timeline slider which you could drag around and see locations come and go according to whether they exist in that time period
20160927 22:46:45< celticminstrel> And possibly zoom buttons.
20160927 22:46:51< shadowm> That sounds like a colossal waste of time given everything else that needs work.
20160927 22:47:02< celticminstrel> Heh, yeah, very low priority.
20160927 22:48:02-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 22:49:15-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:49:50-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@p579FBF3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:49:50-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@p579FBF3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host]
20160927 22:49:50-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:49:51< zookeeper> certainly
20160927 22:49:51< zookeeper> well, as long as the geography wouldn't change, it wouldn't actually be a colossal amount of work. just one single big map, each marker and label defining its own time period, and the code to run it. a lot of work of course, but i'd dare say not _colossal_ :p
20160927 22:49:51< zookeeper> but of course i'm not suggesting anyone should try to start working on that
20160927 22:51:09-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 22:51:47-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20160927 22:52:41-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-224-236-114.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 22:52:42< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#11217 (formula_set_variable - 3b1237a : Celtic Minstrel): The build failed.
20160927 22:52:42< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/163248975
20160927 22:52:42-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-224-236-114.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20160927 22:55:22-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ChipmunkV]
20160927 22:56:18-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20160927 23:12:01-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 23:13:21< EliDupree> Do all healing terrains cure poison?
20160927 23:17:47< irker474> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master 6c2e2e9bf7e5 / src/gui/dialogs/drop_down_list.cpp: Fix crash when selecting the selected item from a dropdown menu https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/6c2e2e9bf7e56e5fc0f3da5828a0c5fa760bb398
20160927 23:17:57< celticminstrel> EliDupree: Probably.
20160927 23:18:07< celticminstrel> But not entirely sur.
20160927 23:18:08< celticminstrel> ^sure
20160927 23:18:12< EliDupree> thx
20160927 23:46:21-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e368841.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20160927 23:56:04-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-182-34.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20160927 23:56:05< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#11218 (master - 6c2e2e9 : Celtic Minstrel): The build passed.
20160927 23:56:05< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/163261533
20160927 23:56:05-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-182-34.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
--- Log closed Wed Sep 28 00:00:44 2016