--- Log opened Fri Sep 09 00:00:32 2016
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20160909 00:30:42< aeth> celmin: poke
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20160909 02:08:54< celmin> aeth: I'm trying to think about kill chances, just so you know why I'm not moving.
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20160909 03:06:40< aeth> celmin: poke
20160909 03:06:48< celmin> Yes, deciding on potions.
20160909 03:06:57< celmin> I thought you said it was 6hp
20160909 03:07:01< celmin> 9hp I mean
20160909 03:07:05< celmin> Or was that the other person.
20160909 03:07:11< aeth> celmin: under leadership it's 9 hp
20160909 03:07:17< aeth> one died but another that does 9 is behind him
20160909 03:07:17< celmin> The potion?
20160909 03:07:20< aeth> the rouser 
20160909 03:07:20< aeth> oh
20160909 03:07:27< aeth> the potions are 6 and 14
20160909 03:07:28< aeth> iirc
20160909 03:08:17< aeth> sorry for some reason I thought you were talking about the goblin damage
20160909 03:08:38< celmin> Someone is coming to observe the game.
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20160909 03:08:53< celmin> As soon as she downloads the latest version.
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20160909 03:25:25< celmin> Does everyone get the "same IP" message?
20160909 03:25:31< celmin> Or just the person whose IP is mirrored?
20160909 03:25:42< aeth> we all do
20160909 03:25:48< celmin> Why? :|
20160909 03:25:48< aeth> probably to stop cheating on ladder matches?
20160909 03:26:34< celmin> I suppose I can see the reasoning there, though it's not like it totally prevent sit.
20160909 03:26:37< celmin> ^prevents it
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20160909 03:42:31< celmin> Uh-oh
20160909 03:42:58< aeth> celmin: did only I disconnect?
20160909 03:43:04< celmin> Yeah.
20160909 03:43:07< aeth> strange
20160909 03:43:15< celmin> You could come back I guess.
20160909 03:43:16< aeth> connection interruption actually, I had 10 sec lag on IRC
20160909 03:43:23< aeth> I'm already on turn 10
20160909 03:43:28< aeth> blindfolded + good computer
20160909 03:43:39< celmin> Ah.
20160909 03:43:39< aeth> turn 16
20160909 03:44:07< aeth> turn 24
20160909 03:44:24< aeth> turn 30
20160909 03:44:40< aeth> turn 35
20160909 03:44:52< aeth> turn 40
20160909 03:45:11< aeth> turn 43
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20160909 07:01:11< aeth> celmin: lagging more than usual? disconnected?
20160909 07:02:04< celmin> Yeah, every so often my connection here just mysteriously dies for no apparent reason until I restart the wifi.
20160909 07:02:29< celmin> The computer wifi, not the router (otherwise KK would've disconnected too).
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20160909 08:01:08< DeFender1031> [9/9/2016 2:30:19 am] <aeth> DeFender1031, celmin: I am hosting a test game now if you're interested <-- This is what I mean by "opposite timezones" (note the timestamp)
20160909 08:01:30< celmin> Though it only ended like half an hour ago. >_>
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20160909 08:01:42< celmin> 4am here… <_<
20160909 08:04:15< DeFender1031> wow, seriously?
20160909 08:04:25< DeFender1031> that's a long freaking game!
20160909 08:04:43< celmin> Yeah, it went 3 in-game days apparently, and we had two L3 units and a L2 by the end.
20160909 08:05:00< celmin> Oh, two L2.
20160909 08:05:17< DeFender1031> nearly 9 hours?
20160909 08:05:24< celmin> Is that how long it was?
20160909 08:05:25< DeFender1031> well, 8.5 i guess
20160909 08:05:30< celmin> I wasn't timing it. >_>
20160909 08:05:41< celmin> I don't actually remember when it started.
20160909 08:05:50< celmin> My sister only joined about halfway through.
20160909 08:05:55< DeFender1031> if you say it ended around half an hour ago, and aeth messaged saying it was starting 9 hours ago...
20160909 08:06:02< celmin> Yeah, probably.
20160909 08:06:11< DeFender1031> [9/9/2016 2:44:01 am] <celmin> Launching now.
20160909 08:06:34< DeFender1031> seems like that's around when it actually started
20160909 08:06:39< DeFender1031> so still over 8 hours
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20160909 16:56:20< rk> Does anyone know where I can download the soundtracks?
20160909 16:57:31< zookeeper> well the music tracks are in your wesnoth/data/core/music/ dir, or you can get them from https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/tree/master/data/core/music too if you need to
20160909 16:58:15< rk> Thanks
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20160909 22:21:54< aeth> celmin: in case you're wondering, I have upped the player count to 9 (the max in 1.12?) and moved the NPC side to side 9 so it moves back to back with side 1 again (side 7 was getting in the way yesterday)
20160909 22:22:49< aeth> I might just have sides 6-8 start as well (making the party 7 player instead of 4 player by default) and just set the sides as empty if they're to be used
20160909 22:23:05< aeth> too bad you can't set sides as empty in local games anymore, which would make it impossible to test except during games
20160909 22:23:35< aeth> If empty leaders are treated as dead leaders, it would "respawn" the leader on the second scenario iirc
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20160909 22:27:03< can-ned_food> “you can't set sides as empty in local games anymore”  I wonder why that was changed.  It is indeed quite useful.
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20160909 22:29:13< aeth> It's a rather ridiculous change. If I wanted to play a game locally with a friend (it is turn based, after all) there are plenty of mainline MP maps where the number is more of a suggestion than a rule
20160909 22:29:51< aeth> in fact, 6p team survival can be played with 1p, but you need to set them as empty first
20160909 22:29:54< aeth> strange, it works
20160909 22:30:32< aeth> *oh*, it's a bug. it works for scenarios but not for MP campaigns
20160909 22:31:25< aeth> I misinterpreted it, I guess
20160909 22:34:31< aeth> The developers *incorrectly* assume that every scenario will not have a set story and thus can function with an empty side and that every campaign will have a story and thus cannot function with an empty side.
20160909 22:34:59< can-ned_food> hmm
20160909 22:35:01< aeth> The proper solution would be to make it a flag in [side] if it is emptyable
20160909 22:35:38< aeth> e.g. in my case, only sides 1, 2, and 9 are *required*, and in many MP scenarios (and probably campaigns) you only need 1 or 2 non-empty side
20160909 22:35:39< can-ned_food> isn't there?  a required=BOOL or necessary=BOOL or so?
20160909 22:35:41< vultraz> One can set a side to empty, what are you talking about 
20160909 22:35:48< aeth> vultraz: not in a campaign
20160909 22:36:02< aeth> can-ned_food: strange that MP campaigns ignore this then
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20160909 22:36:15< can-ned_food> i need to check the wiki
20160909 22:36:20< vultraz> ah, yes
20160909 22:36:25< vultraz> campaigns
20160909 22:36:30< vultraz> yeah, they need their sides
20160909 22:37:14< vultraz> why would you want to set ai sides to empty anyway
20160909 22:37:54< aeth> vultraz: human sides to empty
20160909 22:38:05< celmin> It's probably because someone saw it, thought "oh this isn't useful anyway", and removed it in order to fix/solve some arcane MP synchronization issue.
20160909 22:38:20< aeth> I may have to decampaignify my add-on yet again because in 2016 MP campaigns are still buggy enough to make MP creators prefer extremely large maps in one scenario over an MP campaign
20160909 22:38:28< can-ned_food> also a campaign, in this regard, is simply a sequence of scenarios.
20160909 22:38:52< vultraz> aeth: we're trying our best :|
20160909 22:39:07< aeth> vultraz: no, I mean, consider the case of an MP campaign with n human sides, that functions perfectly well with n-1 human sides, setting side number n to Empty as you would in a scenario that has the same characteristics
20160909 22:39:11< aeth> that is impossible
20160909 22:39:28< vultraz> file a bug report
20160909 22:40:13< aeth> It's not going to matter for MP content creators because the change can only make it into 1.14, which will be a very long time from now, and in the mean time no one plays on 1.13 MP
20160909 22:40:23< celmin> "very long time"
20160909 22:40:30< vultraz> 1.14 is coming early next year
20160909 22:40:38< celmin> I'm guessing you consider ~6 months to be a very long time?
20160909 22:40:46< aeth> In Internet terms, yes.
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20160909 22:40:51< celmin> 'kay, just checking.
20160909 22:40:58< aeth> Many games don't even last 6 months.
20160909 22:41:41< vultraz> I resent your tone.
20160909 22:42:14< celmin> Wait what.
20160909 22:42:27< celmin> What tone.
20160909 22:42:35< celmin> I don't see a tone worth resenting.
20160909 22:42:39< celmin> You're probably imagining it.
20160909 22:42:54< vultraz> Whatever
20160909 22:44:33< aeth> celmin: There is a negative tone.
20160909 22:44:55< aeth> Wesnoth has been by far the most frustrating thing to program to that I have programmed to.
20160909 22:45:13< can-ned_food> try looking at the DCSS code sometime
20160909 22:45:28< vultraz> aeth: and you aren't even working on the engine :|
20160909 22:46:00< aeth> My tone is probably colored by having to manually set what areas are cave for several days, with x and y as separate parameters, by hand in a text editor. Instead of e.g. simply painting it in the map editor or something.
20160909 22:46:20< aeth> On a 400x200 map with quite a bit of cave
20160909 22:46:39< vultraz> there's a feature for that, last I checked
20160909 22:46:44< aeth> It's basically like having to edit .map files by hand, except with the additional complication of having to deal with ranges in parts
20160909 22:47:09< vultraz> and there's no reason you can't use ranged or terrain code
20160909 22:47:11< vultraz> s
20160909 22:47:13< vultraz> ranges
20160909 22:47:48< aeth> I do use ranges. Unfortunately, I make realistic-style (or as close as possible terrain) in a 400x200 map, which generally means that I can only do one column at a time, two to four if I'm lucky.
20160909 22:48:21< vultraz> why in the world would you have a map so large
20160909 22:48:29< vultraz> good luck scrolling 
20160909 22:48:30< aeth> Because MP campaigns are buggy as hell
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20160909 22:48:43< celmin> I don't really have a problem with the map size really.
20160909 22:48:57< vultraz> File bug reports or point out existing ones to us or stop complaining 
20160909 22:49:00< aeth> It's easier for me to have a 400x200 map to get a large RPG than to have to find a way to a non-linear RPG into a campaign
20160909 22:49:42< aeth> s/to a/to turn a/
20160909 22:50:08< can-ned_food> it looks like https://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardLocationFilter may have some useful info for you, aeth
20160909 22:50:12< aeth> Scrolling on the map size isn't an issue because the players are only focused on a tiny portion of the map at any time, and never cover the whole map in a game.
20160909 22:50:24< can-ned_food> unless you are already versed in that
20160909 22:50:57< vultraz> aeth: no, seriously, stop saying "mP campaigns so buggy !!!11!1
20160909 22:51:01< vultraz> and then not elaborate
20160909 22:51:04< vultraz> how are they buggy
20160909 22:51:07< vultraz> what issues do you have
20160909 22:51:19< vultraz> how can we improve them
20160909 22:51:28< can-ned_food> quote:  The terrain= key allows you to filter based on the terrain of a space
20160909 22:51:47< aeth> vultraz: kill a leader. make a new unit a leader. go to a new scenario. the default starting leader is now the leader, not the replacement leader.
20160909 22:51:50< aeth> that's just one example
20160909 22:52:06< aeth> can-ned_food: I do not simply make cave terrain into cave ToD
20160909 22:52:20< aeth> there are places where cave terrain is not cave ToD and there are places where non-cave terrain is cave ToD
20160909 22:52:32< aeth> it is extremely elaborate, and the only easy way to express it would be in the map editor as a layer or something
20160909 22:52:56< can-ned_food> but it looks like you might be able to supply course regions and then use the terrain code filter as intersection of sets
20160909 22:53:28< aeth> My experience with filter code is to avoid it as often as possible.
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20160909 22:53:53< vultraz> as I said, there's a feature to select multiple areas and get a range back
20160909 22:54:08< vultraz> and if you decide to also avoid the filter code, well, that's not our problem
20160909 22:54:13< vultraz> make life harder for yourself
20160909 22:54:14< aeth> It is a source of subtle bugs where I will spend all day debugging a few lines of code to get it to work properly because WML conditionals are a poorly thrown together language rather than a real programming language's conditional system.
20160909 22:54:55< aeth> But there is afaik no way to programmically filter what I want as a cave, what I want as indoors, and what I want to use the standard ToD
20160909 22:55:10< aeth> My map is fantasy-themed, which means that I can do things like have trees underground because magic why not.
20160909 22:55:43< aeth> The idea is to have a creepy atmosphere for most of the underground areas rather than have any sort of plausible model by which I could filter terrains or regions
20160909 22:56:12< aeth> The edges of the underground areas make it difficult to do larger filters. The border is quite messy.
20160909 22:57:03< aeth> And, yes, even if it was filterable with an elaborate filter I'd do it by hand because I'd spend at least a full day putting it together either way, and I'd rather have it hand-coded and certain than have to work around subtle filter bugs due to the filter language being an absolute mess.
20160909 22:57:42< aeth> Maybe it's irrational but I'd rather have hand-coded progress than have to stare at (the equivalent of, since WML is verbose) one line of code for hours
20160909 22:57:51< vultraz> aeth: go to the editor, New Scenario. Go to Areas -> New Area. Highlight some hexes. Go to Areas -> Save Selection to Area. Save. Go look in userdata/editor/scenario/*.cfg. You'll find a [time_area] tag with all the highlighted locations
20160909 22:58:48< vultraz> in x =, y = format
20160909 22:59:17< aeth> vultraz: I cannot use the scenario editor because I use macros to reduce code duplication in my MP camapaign so I don't actually have a scenario file matching my map
20160909 22:59:35< aeth> Since about 95% of the [scenario] code is common for each scenario
20160909 22:59:55< aeth> Although yes I could use it temporarily just to generate the [time_area]
20160909 23:00:09< can-ned_food> the scenario editor can open the .map data — or did i misunderstand you
20160909 23:00:21< vultraz> [09:59:50]	aeth	Although yes I could use it temporarily just to generate the [time_area]
20160909 23:00:23< aeth> can-ned_food: I don't have a scenario .cfg file for my scenarios is what I mean
20160909 23:00:23< vultraz> yes
20160909 23:01:40< aeth> I will probably just remove the MP campaign and make it one scenario, so I can actually use all of the features available to MP scenarios
20160909 23:01:52< aeth> I already merged all but two of the maps into one large map
20160909 23:02:19< aeth> It worked out better than I thought, since I got to make nice transition areas and make the RPG into open world. Limitations create creativity.
20160909 23:02:21< can-ned_food> neither do i have a standard scenario.cfg — i open the map data directly in the editor
20160909 23:02:34< zookeeper> aeth, what other games have you modded?
20160909 23:03:20< aeth> can-ned_food: the schedule information is grayed out when I load a map directly, otherwise I would have guessed the feature, probably
20160909 23:03:36< can-ned_food> oh, i didn't notice that either
20160909 23:03:46< aeth> zookeeper: quite a few, and they are all considerably harder to mod than Wesnoth, with considerably more limitations.
20160909 23:04:31< aeth> All that means is that for the most part, I've moved the focus to making my own standalone games rather than modding.
20160909 23:05:47< aeth> zookeeper: the problem with Wesnoth is that in theory I could just submit patches to fix all of the issues I have with the API, but in practice it is probably one of the most complicated open source projects out there, with quite a large legacy code base.
20160909 23:06:10< zookeeper> sure
20160909 23:06:17< aeth> The trivial issues I bring up are usually fixed by someone else before I can submit a pull request or a bug report. The not so trivial ones are probably about as much work as the entire add-on I'm making, if not more.
20160909 23:07:15-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20160909 23:07:44< aeth> And some of the issues I have are controversial and would require quite a bit of politics too, such as making the WML filter system work in a way that makes sense to me rather than in a way where every time I try to do a filter I step on half a dozen landmines of unexpected behavior.
20160909 23:07:54< aeth> Since that's breaking backwards compatability
20160909 23:09:49< celmin> I wonder if you can explain in more detail what your problem is with the filter system.
20160909 23:10:28< aeth> celmin: It's as fundamental as the way and/or/not work, and I've explained it at least 3 times here
20160909 23:10:38< celmin> Oh, that.
20160909 23:11:05< celmin> So all your problems with filters are about and/or/not?
20160909 23:11:22< aeth> I want [foo] [and] x y z [or] u v w [/or] [/and] [/foo] instead of how it currently works
20160909 23:11:30< aeth> in fact, it would take me probably 5-10 minutes to convert that into valid WML
20160909 23:11:53< aeth> there are a few other issues, but they're more minor
20160909 23:11:56< zookeeper> what i do find weird is how often people with programming (or similar) experience complain about things in WML being somehow fundamentally wrong and terrible.
20160909 23:12:14< vultraz> well, they are :P
20160909 23:12:18< vultraz> WML is terrible
20160909 23:12:20< celmin> Not sure I quite understand your point from the example.
20160909 23:12:29< vultraz> WML does more than it should
20160909 23:12:39< aeth> celmin: x and y and z and (u or v or w)
20160909 23:12:51< aeth> WML should just be configuration, lua should be programming.
20160909 23:13:03< celmin> Ah.
20160909 23:13:04< aeth> WML poorly reimplements about half of a programming language (no functions!)
20160909 23:13:05< zookeeper> i had programming experience and that just helped me to understand how WML works, and great then i was able to get stuff done with it. no problem.
20160909 23:13:17< celmin> But that would require each element to be wrapped in an additional subtag.
20160909 23:13:29< aeth> WML takes us back to the early 1980s in programming, but with XML-style syntax to make it even harder to comprehend
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20160909 23:13:39< aeth> it is *wonderful* for configuration stuff
20160909 23:13:42< vultraz> aeth: no one debates this
20160909 23:14:49< zookeeper> (maybe i'm just better at seeing things in perspective? :p)
20160909 23:14:49< vultraz> but for some reason certain people insist we preserve Backwards Compatibility over all else.
20160909 23:14:49< aeth> zookeeper: WML goes against almost all of my programmer instincts, though. Like to use functions, and to use global constants for certain magic numbers, etc.
20160909 23:15:32< aeth> Macros are not functions and there are limitations to using tons of macros to reduce code duplication.
20160909 23:15:41< vultraz> yes, yes
20160909 23:15:52< aeth> In fact, mainline WML has a lot of duplication that shouldn't exist, and where it's taken care of it's probably taken care of via macros.
20160909 23:15:59< vultraz> there's nothing preventing you from making custom wml tags, though
20160909 23:16:06< aeth> When you have several thousand lines (and mainline is worse), it's harder
20160909 23:16:08< vultraz> in lua
20160909 23:16:15< aeth> s/harder/harder to understand things and update things/
20160909 23:16:17< aeth> I hit enter too soon
20160909 23:16:19< celmin> "for some reason"
20160909 23:16:23< celmin> It's a very good reason.
20160909 23:16:39< vultraz> celmin: preserving something broken is worse than breaking it to improve it
20160909 23:17:03< aeth> vultraz: Well, the thing stopping me is the way Lua is implemented, and the way I work around it by making all Lua files << >> literal quoted strings in WML macros so that I don't break saves and don't require downloads.
20160909 23:17:13< aeth> Even when I require a download, I'm not sure I want to change this behavior because I don't like breaking saves.
20160909 23:17:14< celmin> It's not like it has to be preserved forever.
20160909 23:17:31< vultraz> breaking saves... what?
20160909 23:17:36< celmin> You can deprecate it in the dev cycle as soon as a new stable release is out.
20160909 23:17:38< celmin> Whatever it is.
20160909 23:17:49< vultraz> "and the way I work around it by making all Lua files << >> literal quoted strings in WML macros"
20160909 23:17:51< vultraz> this is...
20160909 23:17:52< aeth> vultraz: afaik if I change what foo.lua does, it'll break saves if I handle the Lua regularly.
20160909 23:17:53< vultraz> horrible
20160909 23:17:54< vultraz> ugly :|
20160909 23:18:06< vultraz> disgustingly ugly.
20160909 23:18:11< aeth> Modding is about doing horrible and ugly things because you don't have control over the engine.
20160909 23:18:24< aeth> It's very hard to get players as-is, it would be impossible if I required a download.
20160909 23:18:31< vultraz> not true
20160909 23:18:31< celmin> It's ugly because Wesnoth (1.12) doesn't support auto-download of addons.
20160909 23:18:47< celmin> (For the record, I would download it.)
20160909 23:19:01< vultraz> you do know that in 1.13 the game prompts you to download any required stuff before entering a game if you don't have it?
20160909 23:19:12 * celmin points vultraz two lines above.
20160909 23:19:17< aeth> celmin: right but usually the majority is randoms in all my playtests, and it does kind of help me too because I get to know what the random impression is
20160909 23:19:23< aeth> And it helps make every game extremely different
20160909 23:19:32< celmin> If he was working on 1.13 it really would be impossible to get players.
20160909 23:20:03< vultraz> true
20160909 23:20:21< aeth> vultraz: I would absolutely love to just do one static release on 1.12, abandon it except for bugfixes, and develop on 1.13 where all of the nice things are. Instead, I have to use certain tricks to make the add-on run on both 1.12 and 1.13, and avoid terrains introduced in 1.13 (although I already have in mind which new terrains I will place to swap out older ones)
20160909 23:20:43< aeth> Unfortunately, no one has played on devel versions since 1.3 afaik. Maybe with Steam it'll be different because of the opt-in beta, idk
20160909 23:20:44< vultraz> why do you do this :|
20160909 23:20:54< vultraz> 1.12 and 1.13 have diverged too much.
20160909 23:21:00< aeth> so?
20160909 23:21:09< vultraz> You can't complain about a lack of new features if you deliberately don't use them!
20160909 23:21:33< aeth> in Lua: wesnoth.compare_versions(wesnoth.game_config.version, ">=", some_version)
20160909 23:21:38< vultraz> You can't complain that we don't fix bugs if you don't use the versions with the bugfixes!
20160909 23:21:47< aeth> then I can use the features in 1.13 that I test locally, and when I actually play the game, a fallback is used.
20160909 23:22:10< aeth> I get unit data programatically through the Lua API, so... it's perfectly fine
20160909 23:22:30< aeth> everything can change and it's handled (afaik)
20160909 23:22:34< vultraz> You're making life harder for yourself by trying to maintain a 1.12 port.
20160909 23:22:37< aeth> Only with terrain would I need two maps
20160909 23:22:48< celmin> You can't expect people to use 1.13 when making MP scenarios if there's no-one who plays MP on 1.13.
20160909 23:22:58< celmin> It's not him making life harder for himself.
20160909 23:22:59< aeth> vultraz: I've been down this road before. If I only do work on the dev version for MP add-ons I will lose motivation in less than a month because what keeps me going is people actually enjoying what I make.
20160909 23:23:21< celmin> It's the people not using the 1.13 MP server making it harder for him, if anything.
20160909 23:23:37< aeth> What I do when I mod Wesnoth under GPLv2+ code is a public service with no possibility of making a cent from it. There's no reason for me to continue unless people enjoy what I'm doing.
20160909 23:23:50< aeth> Most of my work is before and after MP test games, with other people.
20160909 23:23:52 * vultraz mutters darkly about the gpl
20160909 23:24:09< aeth> I mean, sure, I could also sell exceptions but I don't think that would work very well. :-p
20160909 23:24:43< vultraz> why don't you contribute to the engine
20160909 23:25:25< aeth> I have tried before. It's extremely difficult to get into. It does quite a few things the wrong way, as most C++ legacy code bases probably do.
20160909 23:25:36< vultraz> Obviously
20160909 23:25:46< vultraz> The solution is to make them do it the right way
20160909 23:26:06< vultraz> (which thankfully is easier now that we use c++11)
20160909 23:26:12< vultraz> (praise lambdas)
20160909 23:26:42< celmin> Don't praise lambdas too much.
20160909 23:27:14< aeth> The proper way to rewrite large parts of the code would be to make it use libraries so that other games can benefit from improvements. (Ideally, permissively licensed libraries because the reality of gamedev is what it is right now, but that's probably still a controversial opinion.)
20160909 23:27:41< vultraz> we would love to use libraries.
20160909 23:27:44< aeth> Either libraries written specifically for Wesonth but with enough generality, or just external libraries
20160909 23:27:52< aeth> Wesnoth's codebase is *way* too monolithic
20160909 23:27:57< aeth> Modular is fun.
20160909 23:28:13< aeth> Modular means I only need to know about 10,000 LoC at most (and usually far less) to make changes.
20160909 23:28:31< vultraz> somehow I think you'd like the "wesnoth 2" initiative 
20160909 23:28:39< aeth> no
20160909 23:28:52< aeth> The only value Wesnoth has is its data.
20160909 23:28:59< vultraz> uh
20160909 23:29:00< vultraz> what?
20160909 23:29:58< aeth> The important part about Wesnoth is literally the stuff under wesnoth/data
20160909 23:30:24< aeth> Running that on a more modern game engine is much more important than trying to make another game with the "Wesnoth" trademark.
20160909 23:30:40< vultraz> You do realize that we're basically copying all of that over
20160909 23:30:41< aeth> Although obviously a lot of changes will have to be made to the WML anyway
20160909 23:30:54< zookeeper> vultraz, uh what? no you're not
20160909 23:31:09< vultraz> (WML excluded)
20160909 23:31:13< zookeeper> you're just copying some assets
20160909 23:31:15< vultraz> (of course)
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20160909 23:31:36< aeth> https://github.com/anura-engine/wesnoth2/blob/master/data/spells/elves.cfg
20160909 23:31:41< aeth> kind of sounds like a completely different game
20160909 23:32:07< vultraz> yes
20160909 23:32:13< vultraz> but we're still using the same assets
20160909 23:32:17< celmin> It is a completely different game. Vultraz just likes bringing it up all the time for some reason.
20160909 23:32:24< vultraz> if that's what you're worried about 
20160909 23:32:27< vultraz> however
20160909 23:32:49< aeth> using the assets and mixing it with mainline spells or whatever completely misses the point
20160909 23:33:02< aeth> sure, mainline is boringly basic, but that makes the mods that do more that much more exciting
20160909 23:33:18< vultraz> if you mean the gameplay *content* like campaigns, then no, that's not going to be kept
20160909 23:33:28< aeth> plus, I doubt the add-ons from the add-on server would work in Wesnoth 2, but they would work if you slowly change Wesnoth 1 over time
20160909 23:33:35< aeth> Of course I mean content
20160909 23:33:47< vultraz> nothing from w1 will work in w2
20160909 23:33:57< celmin> When he says the data, I don't think he means the assets, and I suspect he may be including basic game-rules to some extent.
20160909 23:33:58< aeth> sounds like it should be called something different, then
20160909 23:34:17< vultraz> It's not supposed to be Wesnoth v 2.0
20160909 23:34:17< aeth> I have absolutely no interest in contributing to Wesnoth 2, core engine or add-ons.
20160909 23:34:26< vultraz> why?
20160909 23:34:41< aeth> I've spent more than a year (obviously not full time) making an add-on that pushes the limits of the Wesnoth engine in many ways.
20160909 23:34:50< vultraz> and?
20160909 23:35:06< aeth> If I had to do it over again, I'd do it on my own engine, or on a professional engine (FOSS or not), and sell it on Steam.
20160909 23:35:15< aeth> Not spend a year or more writing a mod for Wesnoth 2.0
20160909 23:35:34< aeth> And I would have to do it all over again with Wesnoth 2.
20160909 23:35:57< aeth> Plus, Wesnoth 2's made by some of the same people who made a lot of major design mistakes in Wesnoth 1. Maybe they're wiser now, maybe they're blind to their errors beacuse they worked around them for years.
20160909 23:36:02< vultraz> I think you don't realize that "W2" is intended to present itself as a base framework that will allow people to sell their creations
20160909 23:36:24< aeth> So is Unity. That's more mature.
20160909 23:37:03< vultraz> And I can personally attest that the Anura framework is 10x better than wesnoth's
20160909 23:37:32< aeth> If it's supposed to be a general FOSS engine, why should I use it instead of Godot?
20160909 23:38:23< aeth> Once you break from the past and make grand promises, you're being compared to capable competitors.
20160909 23:38:34< vultraz> I don't have an answer for that. Just that I've found it incredibly easy to work with.
20160909 23:39:26< vultraz> It's not even 'a wesnoth 2 engine'
20160909 23:39:31< vultraz> wesnoth "2" is built ON an engine
20160909 23:39:42< vultraz> along with other games
20160909 23:39:58< vultraz> frogatto, argentum age
20160909 23:39:58< aeth> The only reason I'm making my add-ons is because I started them many years ago back when I liked Wesnoth a lot and played Wesnoth a lot, and I still like my idea, and I want to finish what I started now that I have the ability to finish my way-too-ambitious idea. It's fun.
20160909 23:40:14< aeth> I have no obligations or history tying me to the Wesnoth 2 engine.
20160909 23:40:25< vultraz> anura*
20160909 23:40:31< aeth> When I can make my own technology choices, I make a lot of extremely different choices than the ones that the Wesnoth devs made/make.
20160909 23:41:17< aeth> Expecting Wesnoth add-on makers to switch engines is like expecting VisualBasic programmers to use VisualBasic.NET instead of another programming language.
20160909 23:41:39< vultraz> I'm not expecting you to do anything
20160909 23:41:48< vultraz> I'm making a personal recommendation.
20160909 23:43:01< aeth> I guess my point is, I'd much rather seen parts of Wesnoth slowly refactored to use more modern techniques than a sequel.
20160909 23:43:12< vultraz> Sure
20160909 23:43:16< vultraz> and we're working on that
20160909 23:43:19< aeth> Right.
20160909 23:43:57-!- can-ned_food [~me@pool-71-253-116-81.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20160909 23:43:58< aeth> There's no reason for me to use "Wesnoth 2" (a really stupid name imo) or be excited about it because sure I can write stuff to "Wesnoth 2" but I can also write new content to just about any set of libraries or any engine.
20160909 23:44:38< vultraz> I'm not recommending that you mod for wesnoth "2" specifically
20160909 23:44:41< aeth> The point is the existing content, mainline and user-made.
20160909 23:44:42< vultraz> sure, if you want
20160909 23:44:51< vultraz> I'm recommending the engine underneath it
20160909 23:44:55< vultraz> Anura
20160909 23:45:11< vultraz> for your "any set of libraries or any engine"
20160909 23:45:27< aeth> And I don't see why I'd use that rather than Godot for 2D games, since when using someone else's game engine, popularity generally trumps everything else.
20160909 23:45:38< vultraz> how so?
20160909 23:45:42 * zookeeper still maintains that wesnoth is held back by quality of content and not engine capability (some specific exceptions notwithstanding)
20160909 23:45:42< vultraz> I'm curious 
20160909 23:45:45< aeth> assets, libraries, etc.
20160909 23:45:52< aeth> tutorials, etc.
20160909 23:45:53< vultraz> Shouldn't functionality come first
20160909 23:46:03< aeth> There's generally more functionality on an engine everyone uses, too
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20160909 23:46:44< vultraz> go ask the people who develop it
20160909 23:46:44< aeth> It's the difference between using an engine a handful of games use and one that hundreds to thousands (or more) use
20160909 23:47:07< aeth> Personally, I don't really care about the network effects and am making my own engine, but I expect 0 others to use it.
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20160909 23:51:23< aeth> but if you're going to use a third party engine, use one everyone uses
20160909 23:52:49 * vultraz shrugs
20160909 23:52:51< vultraz> perhaps
20160909 23:54:10< TC01> zookeeper: as a Wesnoth player and not a developer, I agree; I'd be much more excited by, say, mainlining campaigns and improving existing ones than I am by improvements to the engine
20160909 23:54:27< TC01> obviously both are valuable, though
20160909 23:54:57< aeth> zookeeper: there are two issues to the engine imo (1) it's hard to change/add things and (2) the rendering code doesn't match modern hardware, so it is much slower than it should be and doesn't really handle well on very high resolution screens
20160909 23:55:26< aeth> i.e. afaik, higher resolutions = more of the map visible with the pixel size constant and the zoom options all with issues
20160909 23:55:44< aeth> but instead the map should probably stop scaling right around the 1080p size, as I suspect it looks pretty bad in 4k
20160909 23:56:47< zookeeper> TC01, yeah, we have very little people available for actually making big additions or changes to the core content, it's mostly just tweaks and fixes.
20160909 23:57:55< zookeeper> a hypothetical best campaign ever wouldn't need any particularly fancy bells and whistles, just good design and writing and all that
20160909 23:59:44< zookeeper> aeth, rendering performance is indeed one of those technical issues that are an annoying bottleneck
--- Log closed Sat Sep 10 00:00:01 2016