--- Log opened Sat Sep 10 00:00:01 2016
--- Day changed Sat Sep 10 2016
20160910 00:00:01< zookeeper> or at least a constant source of annoyance
20160910 00:00:02< aeth> Besides the rendering and the network code, I don't think much needs to change. A lot would be *nice* to change, but not *needed* to change.
20160910 00:00:59< aeth> I am almost certain the networking code suffers from the same issue of being very ancient and causing issues, but I just don't have the expertise to point out what's wrong.
20160910 00:01:13< aeth> And I don't think anything other than rendering and networking would be like that.
20160910 00:01:23< TC01> zookeeper: that's a shame; the world and the open source nature of its "canon" was one of the things I found appealing about Wesnoth in the first place :/
20160910 00:01:35< TC01> (that and its relatively high quality compared to many other FOSS games; this was a time before Steam for Linux was a thing)
20160910 00:04:22< aeth> TC01: the state of FOSS games is probably worse now than it used to be because of the indie boom/bubble because now everyone tries (and usually fails) to sell a simple game that probably would have (1) not been made or (2) been a freeware flash game or (3) been released as FOSS in the past
20160910 00:04:37< aeth> Sure, most of them were awful but some of them got to develop like e.g. Freeciv and Wesnoth
20160910 00:05:30< aeth> Now, instead there's work on FOSS engines (like Godot) that are permissive as well as freeware $0 engines, designed to be used to make commercial mobile and/or Steam games.
20160910 00:05:46< aeth> Those are the same set of developers (although larger in number) that would be making FOSS or flash games.
20160910 00:06:35< aeth> Even the Wesnoth developers have gone this route. An entirely FOSS game engine with commercial assets isn't FOSS under e.g. the Debian Free Software Guidelines, and so won't show up on Debian or Fedora even if the non-mobile version is $0
20160910 00:07:19< vultraz> I don't care what's considered FOSS under some arbitrary guideline
20160910 00:08:03< vultraz> Wesnoth is what it is and uses what resources and assets it has to improve. If some FOSS snobs want to say it's not really FOSS then, so be it.
20160910 00:11:18< TC01> aeth: yeah :/
20160910 00:11:34< TC01> vultraz: fair enough, but what was special about Wesnoth to *me* was that the content (both art/music and written) was open as well as the code, so I find that attitude rather disappointing
20160910 00:12:10< vultraz> For the record, the art still is under the GPL
20160910 00:12:23< vultraz> (we're working to change it to CC-BY-something, though)
20160910 00:14:20< aeth> vultraz: no, I'm saying Frogatto isn't and Wesnoth 2 may or may not be
20160910 00:14:28< aeth> which isn't controversial afaik
20160910 00:14:40< aeth> Wesnoth uses GPL for its assets, which is a different issue, a bit non-sensical
20160910 00:14:57< TC01> I mean, even the FSF, who are probably the most hardline "FOSS snobs", to use your term, consider CC a better license for art than the GPL
20160910 00:15:06< aeth> Wesnoth is older than that advice
20160910 00:16:05< aeth> A lot of the issues (though not all of them) can be answered with "Wesnoth is old" or "it was unplanned"
20160910 00:16:54< aeth> Of course all of the bad designs with WML would probably be seen as bad by 1980s computer textbooks so that's probably just a case of "don't do it yourself, you'll get it wrong", like what is more commonly applied to cryptography.
20160910 00:19:47< aeth> Thankfully, Wesnoth uses Lua too instead of some custom language (some engines do this, and they make some big mistakes...)
20160910 00:20:06< aeth> Lua isn't perfect (#1 flaw is probably indices starting at 1 instead of 0 for a language designed to interoperate with C and C++)
20160910 00:20:16< aeth> but Lua's better than most people can invent
20160910 00:23:37< celmin> I don't think the indices is a flaw.
20160910 00:24:10< aeth> What it means though is that some things start with 0 and some things start with 1, rather than that all things start with 1
20160910 00:24:16< celmin> Though I suppose it could be a little confusing for the C/C++ programmer, and WML also uses 0-index which is even more confusing.
20160910 00:24:17< aeth> Since it interfaces with things defined in C or C++ that start with 0
20160910 00:24:25< aeth> and WML.
20160910 00:24:44< aeth> If it was an arbitrary random systems language that started with 1 it would be a different story. Just a bikeshedding thing.
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20160910 00:32:36< aeth> oh one reason why I didn't think the scenario editor would work is because I *did* load scenario .cfg files with it before and all it did was treat it as a map, not a scenario, i.e. it found the map and loaded it and that's it, no editing
20160910 00:32:43< aeth> I forgot because it's been months
20160910 00:34:45< aeth> an error telling me what to fix instead of failing silently would be nice
20160910 00:35:40< aeth> I do get an error, in the console, and it's not helpful
20160910 00:36:54< celmin> Scenarios created with the scenario editor are different from scenarios created normally.
20160910 00:37:08< celmin> To be specific, they are not wrapped in any scenario tags.
20160910 00:38:31< aeth> ...
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20160910 00:40:15< celmin> Yeah.
20160910 00:40:29< celmin> I don't know what someone was thinking when they did that.
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20160910 00:43:02< aeth> strange that Empty is still not available for this map, and just this map, even when it's not a campaign
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20160910 00:46:30< aeth> oh, because controller=human, probably
20160910 00:48:30< aeth> oh, yes, sure enough the controller=1 side can be set empty
20160910 00:50:48< aeth> and there is no "not AI" option because I can e.g. set controller to =human,null when I want to crash Wesnoth or something
20160910 00:53:00< aeth> accidentally droided side 9 that has thousands of units. whoops. I guess I'll have to kill Wesnoth
20160910 01:00:50< aeth> interesting, if I give an Empty side a unit, nothing at all will happen unless I take control via the control command, which can't happen in a local  game
20160910 01:02:32< aeth> there's no way to take control
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20160910 04:34:42< aeth> I'm now getting OOS *during* replays, which afaik doesn't even make any sense.
20160910 04:34:55< aeth> I'll see what I kind find trying to fix my add-on's replays
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20160910 17:24:39< DeFender1031> wow, looks like i missed quite an argument...
20160910 17:25:10< celmin> Between aetheryn and vultcave?
20160910 17:25:17 * celmin uses alt-names to avoid pings.
20160910 17:25:24 * celmin probably misspelled that, oh well.
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20160910 17:27:09< DeFender1031> yeah, that one
20160910 17:27:55< celmin> Yeah.
20160910 17:28:02< celmin> Quite an argument.
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20160910 17:34:58< aeth> only because I was very tired yesterday
20160910 17:35:08< aeth> usually I don't bother arguing things on the Internet anymore
20160910 17:35:13< celmin> Ah, he showed up.
20160910 17:35:20< celmin> Hi.
20160910 17:35:29< aeth> idk why I was so tired yesterday, it was as if I stayed up late the night before that, playing games or something
20160910 17:35:32< aeth> :-p
20160910 17:35:33< DeFender1031> whatever, my purpose isn't to reboot the argument
20160910 17:35:46< aeth> I should have ended the game hours earlier
20160910 17:35:56< celmin> :P
20160910 17:36:09< celmin> You can blame me for bringing my sister in, if you want.
20160910 17:36:32< aeth> it's the furthest anyone has gotten in that game by far
20160910 17:36:39< DeFender1031> aeth, yeah, you started shortly after i went to bed. When I got up, celmin told me it had only been over for about half an hour. Based on my caluclations, the game was over 8 hours long
20160910 17:36:55< aeth> celmin: two boss fights, too. I haven't seen that happen before. three if you count the giant mudcrawler when everyone was still weak
20160910 17:37:30< aeth> DeFender1031: unfortunately something corrupted the replay again, and I can't even trace it because Wesnoth somehow set itself to 60 autosaves from infinite and deleted the first few
20160910 17:37:47< DeFender1031> aww, that sucks,
20160910 17:37:52< aeth> It happened very early, though. It's either the teleporting or the shops.
20160910 17:37:59< aeth> the earliest autosave, 9, was already corrupted
20160910 17:37:59< DeFender1031> poo.
20160910 17:38:01< celmin> Makes sense.
20160910 17:38:06< aeth> DeFender1031: I mean in theory all the data is there, and it can be repaired
20160910 17:38:24< celmin> Can't you "fix" the save and view it anyway, or somehow ignore OOS errors or something?
20160910 17:38:36< DeFender1031> fine, but repairing the existing saves doesn't mean that the mod itself is functioning properly
20160910 17:38:58< aeth> celmin: It's corrupted at the Load screen, which means that it can't even open. The *new* replays are the ones that somehow get OOS, which seems to only affect teleporting afaik. The battles go on if I ignore the OOS.
20160910 17:39:11< celmin> Ah...
20160910 17:39:20< aeth> So basically, I de-campaignified it to try to see if that would fix some of the bugs and I just wound up creating new ones
20160910 17:39:51< aeth> maybe if I get rid of saveids that will fix it, although I need saveids in 1.13 to set 1 and 9 controlled by the same human
20160910 17:42:18< aeth> somewhat related and somewhat different, I do need to fix the way teleporters, shops, etc., get saved
20160910 17:43:30< DeFender1031> aeth, corrupted saves probasbly come from variables being held in lua's memory space not being saved and loaded properly in WML's
20160910 17:43:37< DeFender1031> (just a guess)
20160910 17:43:58< aeth> DeFender1031: corrupted saves, yes. corrupted replays, that's different afaik.
20160910 17:44:09< aeth> I thought the replays would essentially have no issue with that.
20160910 17:44:14< celmin> Well, replays are saves, though with no snapshot.
20160910 17:44:20< aeth> *Except* I don't think I tested *using* the items from the shop after purchasing them
20160910 17:44:44< celmin> I don't know when someone first tried using them.
20160910 17:47:05< aeth> anyway, I have quite a few things I need to test and fix before the next test.
20160910 17:47:18< DeFender1031> right
20160910 17:47:52< DeFender1031> btw, aeth what timezone ARE you in? I'd really love to be part of one of your tests, but you seem to usually end up doing them at what amounts to 3 AM for me.
20160910 17:48:12< aeth> saves and replays are basically important for a game that people might want to save and continue later, or at least watch the replay of.
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20160910 17:48:43< aeth> 60-70 turns and the starting lvl 1s are barely lvl 2s-3s, and lines with lvl 4s aren't near lvl 4
20160910 17:48:50< aeth> and the bosses are still quite weak
20160910 17:49:19< aeth> in theory in the final game, the power of the units will get quite strong, but in practice it'll take so slow to do that I don't need to worry about powerups/upgrades for a while
20160910 17:49:27< aeth> until someone keeps playing a saved game
20160910 17:49:35< aeth> DeFender1031: eastern US time
20160910 17:52:25< DeFender1031> aeth, i guess you're doing stuff "after hours".
20160910 17:52:53< celmin> That sounds like my timezone too.
20160910 17:53:01< aeth> DeFender1031: I will probably actually need to start my next game around noon eastern US time
20160910 17:53:13< DeFender1031> tomorrow?
20160910 17:53:23< aeth> no
20160910 17:53:33< aeth> the bugs and issues will probably take about a week to fix, if not more
20160910 17:53:36< DeFender1031> oh, i just figured cause it's sunday
20160910 17:53:39< DeFender1031> ah
20160910 17:53:44< DeFender1031> gotcha
20160910 17:53:48< aeth> quite a lot is broken
20160910 17:53:52< DeFender1031> :(
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20160910 17:55:28< DeFender1031> and yeah, ultimately, aeth, i think people might want to be able to have a long-term rpg going which they continue to resume
20160910 17:55:52< aeth> that's the goal
20160910 17:56:05< aeth> it would probably take weeks to cover the whole map
20160910 17:57:44< aeth> of course, spots can also be recycled too. what's actually on the map will change and how what's on the map will change, too
20160910 18:02:00< aeth> I just hope setting sides as empty and then later using them with players and units won't cause issues
20160910 18:02:24< aeth> for a game that lasts weeks, it's likely that e.g. a game could start with 3 people in the party and then pick up another 2-3
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20160910 18:43:27< DeFender1031> aeth, indeed. I'd even imagine some people might leave, others might want to join with fresh characters, etc.
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20160910 19:44:39< aeth> I've added a new starting area now
20160910 19:48:55< aeth> strangely, starting areas are best done near the end rather than near the beginning
20160910 19:49:28< aeth> as simple as I made it, I wouldn't have been able to make it look this good without the experience of most of the rest of the map
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20160910 20:18:35< aeth> If anyone wants to take a look at it, it's in the bottom right corner of the map on the latest git version (I ran out of other places to put it)
20160910 20:21:28< aeth> I can start a game just to demo the new starting area if people want me to, but obviously I'm not going to do a full game while so much of it is broken
20160910 20:21:41< aeth> it'd just be a little test of giving an Empty side to a player and of the new starting area
20160910 20:33:52< Narrat> link to the repo?
20160910 20:34:55< aeth> https://github.com/Aethaeryn/wesnoth-umc/tree/master/Aethaeryns_Mod
20160910 20:35:04< aeth> oh oops I didn't update the readme
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--- Log closed Sun Sep 11 00:00:56 2016