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20160912 20:07:50< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, I just glanced at the channel's join/part history and my eyes drifted across your alternate nick, which my brain interpreted at first as "garlic bread"
20160912 20:29:23< celmin> Heh...
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20160912 20:49:22-!- DeFender1031 is now known as garlic_bread
20160912 20:54:51< aeth> and if you combine celtic minstrel with garlic bread you get garlic bard
20160912 20:58:48< garlic_bread> aeth, that was the point. celmin's alt nick is gaelicbard which I misread as garlic bread.
20160912 20:59:38< garlic_bread> i'm not sure about a garlic bard though...
20160912 21:00:29< garlic_bread> of course now i'm thinking about the minstrels in castle town in zelda tqilight princess, but made of garlic bulbs instead of hylians...
20160912 21:01:54< garlic_bread> twilight*
20160912 21:02:19< garlic_bread> aeth, garlic bread should totally be an item available in your mod.
20160912 21:02:56< aeth> garlic_bread: items are a nightmare to add when the game is spaghetti instead of OOP
20160912 21:03:20< garlic_bread> aeth, i thought you had shops already
20160912 21:03:37< garlic_bread> and yes, that's true, but your mod could be OOP
20160912 21:03:45< aeth> shops need to be rewritten from real Lua to ugly mess that use WML variables
20160912 21:03:52< aeth> and OOP in Lua is a hideous monstrosity
20160912 21:03:57< garlic_bread> (then again, lua's OOP tools aren't the greatest either...)
20160912 21:04:05< aeth> (then again it's probably still better than OOP in Java)
20160912 21:04:05< garlic_bread> yeah
20160912 21:04:39< garlic_bread> What do you mean? Java's OOP is so great, it FORCES you to use it even when it doesn't make sense! (Sarcasm)
20160912 21:04:44< aeth> Lua's in an awkward position where it can't really do OOP well like some languages but it also can't really do low level pseudo-object stuff well that's faster like some other languages
20160912 21:05:04< garlic_bread> right.
20160912 21:05:07< aeth> you don't really need polymorphism etc
20160912 21:06:01< garlic_bread> honestly, in terms of OOP semantics, C++ is definitely the best.
20160912 21:06:04< aeth> I can't really think of one situation where "is a" inheritance is more important than "has a"
20160912 21:06:07< aeth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-a
20160912 21:06:15 * celmin likes JS for OOP too.
20160912 21:06:44< garlic_bread> celmin, i like prototypal, though JS's "anything can change at any time" can be abused.
20160912 21:07:20< garlic_bread> also, (and what i'm about to say will probably prove unpopular), C++ is the only language that I know of that fully supports multiple inheritance
20160912 21:07:49< celmin> Python supports it. Whether it "fully supports it", I dunno.
20160912 21:07:58< garlic_bread> aeth, there are times when "has a" means you end up having to re-implement wrappers for every single function.
20160912 21:09:32< garlic_bread> celmin, i don't know about python, but what i mean by "fully" is diamond inheritance (which I have, in fact, encountered cases where i've needed it), and with controls over whether the shared ancestor exists once per inherited chain or shares its base data.
20160912 21:10:02< garlic_bread> C++ is the only language i've encountered with an elegant method to allow diamond inheritance.
20160912 21:10:14< garlic_bread> (granted, i don't know all languages)
20160912 21:10:18< celmin> If I recall correctly, Pythin multiple inheritance is "always virtual", but it's been awhile since I looked at it.
20160912 21:10:30< garlic_bread> (then again, i was talking in terms of what JS lacks)
20160912 21:11:08< celmin> Well, I've seen attempts at emulating MI in JS.
20160912 21:11:14< celmin> I dunno if they're good.
20160912 21:12:06< garlic_bread> you can certainly get close.
20160912 21:12:27< garlic_bread> i mean, at worst, you can copy over every method onto the new object
20160912 21:12:52< garlic_bread> but there's only one prototype chain, and therefore things like instanceof won't work
20160912 21:14:21< aeth> garlic_bread: Common Lisp also supports multiple inheritance
20160912 21:14:38< garlic_bread> aeth, how does it handle diamond?
20160912 21:14:55< aeth> garlic_bread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_inheritance#Mitigation
20160912 21:15:42< aeth> the metaobject protocol (MOP) means you can change pretty much everything about CLOS, too
20160912 21:16:48< garlic_bread> fascinating.
20160912 21:17:08< garlic_bread> okay, enough of this garlic_bread business...
20160912 21:17:12-!- garlic_bread is now known as DeFender1031
20160912 21:18:16< aeth> CLOS is very different from C++ OOP, though.
20160912 21:18:40< DeFender1031> so is JS's prototypal inheritance.
20160912 21:19:00< aeth> The point of CLOS is multiple-dispatch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch
20160912 21:20:16< aeth> You wouldn't use CLOS in a CL game, though. CL can get comparable performance to C (except for the GC overhead, obviously), but only if you write it like C.
20160912 21:20:46< aeth> I think C++ does fast OOP at the expense of (1) not being very expressive and (2) taking years to compile
20160912 21:21:53< aeth> I exaggerate a bit, but not much. C++ is afaik the slowest compiling language, or at least close.
20160912 21:22:21< aeth> People wouldn't waste time on nonsense JITing like JS and Lua if they actually used other AOT languages than C++.
20160912 21:22:48< aeth> ahead of time is a good thing
20160912 21:27:54< aeth> It's probably related, though. Everyone uses C++ so everyone invests in C++ compilers so the C++ compilers do every optimization, so C++ is one of the fastest languages at the expense of compilation
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20160912 21:58:45< aeth> oh I just realized I didn't actually say how I was going to fix things
20160912 21:59:02< aeth> probably just a bunch of conditionals to fake basic OOP
20160912 21:59:25< aeth> simple usage of generics are sort of like conditionals as long as you have some kind of way to distinguish between "types"
20160912 21:59:31< aeth> which in Lua is probably string equality
20160912 22:00:48< aeth> I might actually do something closer to OOP with the GUI wrapper eventually. GUIs seem to be the main place where OOP seems to work well afaik.
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20160912 22:33:08< janebot> wesnoth: Can't install the game client on Win 8.1 [Help] (by /u/NasalSnack) https://redd.it/52h4lm
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 13 00:00:56 2016