--- Log opened Tue Sep 20 00:00:52 2016
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20160920 01:13:07< can-ned_food> hmm.  so there is no straightforward way to query the number of casualties during a scenario?
20160920 01:23:56< can-ned_food> Minstrel, if i have a very old BoA scenario which i never finished, you think i should bother completing it for BoA?
20160920 01:25:15< can-ned_food> or maybe i can attempt to port it to Wesnoth, just to show DeFender that Wesnoth can't handle it?
20160920 01:26:31< can-ned_food> but now I wonder.  BoA wasn't a perfect engine, by far, so maybe a port to Wesnoth would be an interesting endeavor
20160920 01:28:40< celmin> can-ned_food: I find it hard to imagine porting between BoA and Wesnoth - they're totally different styles of game. If you want to finish it, I'd suggest just finishing it for BoA. (Of course, if you want to try anyway, it's your scenario after all.)
20160920 01:29:22< celmin> The number of casualties in a scenario is known, I believe. However it's likely that there's no way for your code to access that.
20160920 01:34:26< can-ned_food> DeFender was saying that the Wesnoth engine was an excellent platform for storytelling, and that was mostly good-natured ribbing.
20160920 01:36:42 * celmin notes that BoA is technically not dead yet.
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20160920 04:04:11< Gyra> So I have been constantly blabbing about making a more vanilla-ish Drake campaign
20160920 04:04:30< Gyra> I have just spent my entire evening working on the main map for a campaign that is not that
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20160920 04:05:30< Gyra> (it is also not vanilla, and heavily centers on the Khalifate and a UMC faction so it's not so likely to be mainline like I have ambitions for ^^
20160920 04:06:58< celmin> You're the "description rewrites" person?
20160920 04:07:19< celmin> Which UMC faction? (curious)
20160920 04:09:31< Gyra> Yes I rewrite description, haha I like how I am famous for that
20160920 04:09:45< Gyra> Obviously the Windsong since I never stop gushing about them ever
20160920 04:10:06< celmin> I haven't seen you gushing about them once. :P
20160920 04:12:31< Gyra> BASICALLY the premise is 'you are an assorted bunch of pit fighters in a massive Khalifate colosseum trying to plot a mass escape' but in the process there's a bunch of conspiracies to be uncovered and the whole thing may or may not be a massive experiment to test the capabilities of the forming Windsong who basically end up as a third of the antagonists
20160920 04:12:43< celmin> Ergh.
20160920 04:12:55< Gyra> or something like that
20160920 04:12:59< celmin> (Sorry, that just totally contradicts my image of the Khalifate.)
20160920 04:14:00< Gyra> All they're doing is having the colosseum and making a trade agreement. or does having a colosseum on its own contradict it, haha
20160920 04:14:22< Gyra> It's a bunch of other third parties who are doing the conspiratizing
20160920 04:14:46< celmin> Yeah, the existence of a colosseum.
20160920 04:15:22< Gyra> (this is why it is good to bring it up to people, I probably wouldn't have thought much about these kinds of details)
20160920 04:15:24< Gyra> BUT
20160920 04:15:49< Gyra> basically the easy answer is 'he got a truckload of money from said third parties, with the stipulation that he use it to build this colosseum'
20160920 04:16:35< Gyra> and it's like, 'hey i get a free colosseum for my city, that's pretty prestigious and the city will be majorly wealthy'
20160920 04:18:52< Gyra> I mean I'm assuming the Khalifate has some big but distant cities
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20160920 04:20:51< celticminstrel> Of course they have cities, yes.
20160920 04:20:58< celticminstrel> Far to the south, presumably.
20160920 04:28:29< Gyra> Yeah, I picture them as probably being among the biggest and most prosperous on the Continent but there's so much desert in the way that there's barely any connection between them and the northern part we all know well
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20160920 07:22:37< DeFender1031> "All they're doing is having the colosseum and making a trade agreement." You just described the Star Wars prequels. :P
20160920 07:22:58< speak> We do not talk about the Star Wars prequels
20160920 07:29:20< celticminstrel> Your loss. :P
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20160920 11:55:20< Kwandulin> Mhh, how can I tell wesnoth to use this letter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98
20160920 11:55:55< DeFender1031> does just sticking it in as such not work?
20160920 11:56:02< Kwandulin> No, it doesn't
20160920 11:56:14< Kwandulin> The string just seems to "break" at this point, not showing any further letters
20160920 11:56:38< DeFender1031> are you using the correct encoding?
20160920 11:56:42< zookeeper> is your file's e... yes
20160920 11:56:58< zookeeper> i occasionally run into problems when i forget to check the encoding
20160920 12:01:20< Kwandulin> Alright, it was the encoding. It's working now, thanks!
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20160920 18:58:08< aeth> The Star Wars prequels were okay (not terrible, not great, just okay) if you ignore the first one. Kind of like how the second Matrix movie would have been okay if it didn't end on a cliffhanger that tied into a garbage third one imo.
20160920 18:58:26< aeth> Since there's no direct tie-in, it's a lot easier to ignore Episode I in Star Wars.
20160920 19:00:15< aeth> They overreacted against the prequels' too-much-story to basically provide no backstory in the movie itself in the new Star Wars (it exists, just in other media).
20160920 19:01:32< aeth> I guess people like things to be not explained (e.g. Lost) and when you try to explain literally everything in prequels/sequels it takes away a lot of the appeal
20160920 19:12:43< celticminstrel> I like things to be explained.
20160920 19:12:54< celticminstrel> Not in an infodump format, of course.
20160920 19:13:25< aeth> Yes, but a lot of stories (in any medium) ask more questions than they can answer in a satisfying way, making the ending ambiguous or disappointing, and any sequels/prequels disappointing.
20160920 19:17:22< DeFender1031> aeth, two words: Machete Order.
20160920 19:18:33< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, this goes back to the exposition conversation we had a while ago
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20160920 19:24:08< zookeeper> as someone who hates both the prequels and lost, i object to the idea that they exist at the opposite ends of the same spectrum :p
20160920 19:24:38< aeth> zookeeper: too much exposition vs not enough? (well Lost did have some exposition at the very end and it was disappointing, as expected)
20160920 19:25:01< aeth> it does seem like while both are bad, not enough seems to do better so erring on the side of not enough could work
20160920 19:25:19< zookeeper> as far as i'm concerned, lost's problem wasn't that it didn't explain anything, it was that the whole plot depended on _characters_ never explaining or asking anything
20160920 19:25:29< zookeeper> it was a giant plot hole where no one ever asked the obvious questions
20160920 19:25:35< zookeeper> and super annoying
20160920 19:27:29< zookeeper> well, i mean of course that led to it never explaining anything, but i took more offense at the way nothing was explained than the fact that nothing was explained... if that makes sense :p
20160920 19:27:48< aeth> Well, it did get explained in the final season. I wish it didn't.
20160920 19:28:36< zookeeper> well at that point it was several seasons into "i don't care anymore because this is just stupid" so it didn't count anymore :p
20160920 19:28:50< aeth> well yeah
20160920 19:28:56< aeth> I watched the final season after several seasons of not watching
20160920 19:29:00< aeth> I probably wasn't the only one
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20160920 19:30:05< zookeeper> and i wouldn't really phrase the prequels' problem as being that they tried to explain too much. the problem was that they did it really badly
20160920 19:30:33< zookeeper> like, if you want to explain the force somehow then fine, that's not necessarily a huge problem, but doing it in the worst possible way like they did is
20160920 19:31:14< aeth> I don't think there was a way that they could have explained it in a satisfying way to all of the fans or even most of them.
20160920 19:31:19< zookeeper> or if you want to explain galactic politics in detail then fine, but do it in a way that works and matters
20160920 19:32:00< aeth> Tbh, galactic politics seems to be something that would have worked out *much* better as a TV show. And it has been done before as a TV show (well, maybe not *galactic* idk)
20160920 19:32:24< zookeeper> certainly
20160920 19:32:30< DeFender1031> aeth, babylon 5 was basically galactic politics
20160920 19:32:53< zookeeper> the only bad thing about B5 is that it hasn't aged that well
20160920 19:33:10< zookeeper> too bad there's been nothing like it since
20160920 19:33:10< aeth> well, the CG hasn't aged well, but it was actually filmed in HD iirc
20160920 19:33:13< DeFender1031> zookeeper, agreed. not everything has to be explained, but everything that IS explained, has to matter in some way, and everything that's NOT explained has to not matter.
20160920 19:33:32< aeth> zookeeper: well Deep Space Nine was like it :P
20160920 19:33:35< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i actually think it aged fine
20160920 19:33:38< aeth> too bad they were contemporary shows
20160920 19:34:02< aeth> DeFender1031: I was referring to Babylon 5 but I'm not aware if the plot was galactic or not
20160920 19:34:14< aeth> Star Wars tends to be on a much larger (and much less realistic scale) than other sci fi
20160920 19:34:32< DeFender1031> aeth, funny you mention that. I actually have a list somewhere of similarities between the two that i plan on maybe eventually turning into a buzzfeed style list.
20160920 19:34:37< aeth> I was very young for Babylon 5 and I probably saw 1-2 episodes and all I remember in 2016 about it was the hair
20160920 19:35:02< DeFender1031> aeth, i recommend you give it a shot.
20160920 19:35:42< zookeeper> i never watched more than a few episodes of DS9 because i just found the opening episodes really boring
20160920 19:35:50< celticminstrel> I only recently watched B5.
20160920 19:35:58< DeFender1031> lots of people seem to not like the acting in the first season, and it's certainly not as high quality as the rest, but it's not terrible IMO. Certainly not as bad as TNG's first two seasons, and people survive those just fine.
20160920 19:36:20< DeFender1031> am i the only one here who has watched both DS9 and B5?
20160920 19:36:28< celticminstrel> I have.
20160920 19:36:42< aeth> DeFender1031: TNG's first season was terrible
20160920 19:36:45< celticminstrel> Though actually I haven't finished DS9 yet.
20160920 19:36:54< aeth> If I had to watch a bunch of TNG again I'd skip season 1
20160920 19:37:04< DeFender1031> aeth, my point exactly
20160920 19:37:08< celticminstrel> I think the last one I watched was around the point Odo's shapeshifting was restored.
20160920 19:37:19< zookeeper> it's really a shame how BSG ended so poorly, it had pretty much everything spot-on for several seasons
20160920 19:37:23< aeth> most of the stuff people think of as TNG isn't even in season 1. The first and only reshuffling of the cast happened at the end iirc
20160920 19:37:34< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i actually haven't seen BSG, so no spoilers
20160920 19:37:41< DeFender1031> (please)
20160920 19:38:01< aeth> zookeeper: I stopped watching BSG after [spoiler]
20160920 19:38:13< aeth> I don't think it was near the end
20160920 19:38:30< DeFender1031> aeth, yes, and then they kept finding ways to bring tasha back for no reason
20160920 19:38:36< zookeeper> DeFender1031, okay. i'd say it's well worth watching if you like sci-fi, and i suppose some people like the bits i don't
20160920 19:38:57< zookeeper> aeth, ohh... hints?
20160920 19:39:30< aeth> zookeeper: they go to the planet that's not their goal planet instead of having the whole fleet storyline continue
20160920 19:39:34< aeth> not sure how long they were there
20160920 19:39:37< aeth> but it was meh
20160920 19:39:41< aeth> didn't like it at all
20160920 19:39:47< zookeeper> right
20160920 19:39:56< DeFender1031> zookeeper, it's been on our list for a while, we've just got a long list and not so much time to watch stuff
20160920 19:43:18< zookeeper> i'd just like some compelling, serious sci-fi with some action and exciting cool things going on. shouldn't be too much to ask, but...
20160920 19:44:19< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i've seen person of interest classified as a "contemporary sci-fi"
20160920 19:44:54< DeFender1031> and it's pretty dang good
20160920 19:45:04< DeFender1031> and i hate that they cancelled it
20160920 19:45:05< zookeeper> i've seen people praise it, but the premise always sounded too nonsensical for me to get interested in it
20160920 19:45:23< DeFender1031> really? i think the premise is genious
20160920 19:47:02< zookeeper> it... doesn't make any sense though? "a mass-surveillance computer system that relays the identity of a single person predicted to be the crime victim or perpetrator" like uhh...
20160920 19:47:19< zookeeper> how does it know whether the person is the victim or perpetrator
20160920 19:47:27< zookeeper> how does it _not_ know, i mean
20160920 19:47:42< aeth> zookeeper: serious sci fi? I don't think you'll see too much of that outside of books.
20160920 19:47:54< zookeeper> how can't it actually also tell what leads it to the conclusion?
20160920 19:47:57< zookeeper> aeth, yeah
20160920 19:48:44< aeth> movies and TV will mostly want action, and games will mostly want... action?
20160920 19:48:59< zookeeper> DeFender1031, it just sounds like the kind of plothole that the show never addresses in a satisfactory manner
20160920 19:49:09< DeFender1031> zookeeper, that's a fair question
20160920 19:49:40< DeFender1031> ah, how it can't tell what leads it to the conclusion because it's programmed not to
20160920 19:50:25< zookeeper> right. is the question of why the heck was it programmed like that addressed, then? :P
20160920 19:50:37< aeth> zookeeper: machine learning?
20160920 19:50:38< aeth> :-p
20160920 19:50:42< DeFender1031> zookeeper, yes it is.
20160920 19:50:46< zookeeper> mmkay
20160920 19:51:00< DeFender1031> in the first episode even if i'm not mistaken
20160920 19:51:14< aeth> zookeeper: they did a good job with the computers shown on screen in the first season (the only one that I watched)
20160920 19:51:19< aeth> I think it was really GNOME or something
20160920 19:51:25< aeth> not some nonsense fantasy UI
20160920 19:53:54< DeFender1031> indeed
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 21 00:00:06 2016