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20161004 11:54:02< Loonquawl_42> So, is Heir to the Throne considered to be the best starter campaign out there for a new player in the game to learn and hone the tactics of the game?
20161004 11:54:29< Loonquawl_42> Asking as a very new player, but pretty well versed in other strategy games.
20161004 12:07:49< loonycyborg> It's very nice for beginners, yes
20161004 12:07:57< loonycyborg> also, it's pretty long campaign
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20161004 12:14:11< zookeeper> Loonquawl_42, well, you might want to play a few short campaigns first before tackling HttT. an orcish incursion and two brothers are both short and much simpler, so they're good for learning the basics first.
20161004 12:17:13< zookeeper> the only tricky thing about long campaigns for beginners is that they might not have a clear idea how they should manage their units and gold
20161004 12:23:11< Loonquawl_42> Yeah, that's pretty much why i am asking. I mean, the basic "go here, kill this with that ability" and so on is pretty straight forward. But with that many individual maps that in the end ties together in the more grand-strategy sense, it kinda feels a bit overwhelming. :)
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20161004 16:15:58< DeFender1031> Re: the discussion about campaign for beginners, doesn't one of them (south gaurd, I think) say that it's designed as an intro for beginners?
20161004 16:16:05< DeFender1031> yeah, just checked. it's south guard.
20161004 16:16:22< DeFender1031> actually, i've wondered for a while why they're not in recommended playing order
20161004 16:18:15< DeFender1031> or rather, there's two orders I would think make sense, one being chronological and the other being recommended by skill level (might even be nice to have a set of buttons to switch between them). It's currently closer to the recommended order based on skill level, but even then, it puts HttT before some of the more introductory ones.
20161004 16:22:56< DeFender1031> For me, the first time I played HttT, I didn't know that purple meant a unit couldn't actually advance further, so I kept using my veteran units to sweep the board. When I got to the last battle, I had a couple thousand gold from carryover but only a few veteran units and no good way to fight the battle. After getting overrun and losing very quickly three times, I ended up recruiting and creating a line of dwarvish fighters, 
20161004 16:22:58< DeFender1031> replacing them as they fell. I don't know for sure how many dwarves I sent to their deaths like that, but after a long long time, the enemies finally ran out of gold and the units they'd sent had been whittled down enough that I could beat the level.
20161004 16:38:29< celticminstrel> Are they in alphabetical order?
20161004 16:39:16< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, no
20161004 16:39:29< celticminstrel> The problem with recommended playing order is that addons would be able to insert themselves into the recommended playing order. (Same with chronological, except in that case it's not so much a problem.)
20161004 16:39:49< celticminstrel> Unless you hard-code stuff.
20161004 16:40:05< DeFender1031> and add-ons can insert themselves wherever already
20161004 16:40:32< DeFender1031> add-on documentation says "don't use a value lower than whatever", but there's nothing actually preventing someone from doing so
20161004 16:40:38< celticminstrel> What are they sorted by if not name?
20161004 16:40:39< DeFender1031> so that wouldn't really change
20161004 16:41:05< DeFender1031> they're sorted by the "rank=" attribute in the capmaign tag
20161004 16:41:16< DeFender1031> campaign*
20161004 16:41:21< celticminstrel> It's not a problem allowing addons to insert themselves wherever unless the ordering is intended to be something "recommended".
20161004 16:41:27< DeFender1031> it is.
20161004 16:41:30< DeFender1031> it alread yis
20161004 16:41:30< celticminstrel> Blegh, seriously?
20161004 16:41:37< DeFender1031> the docs say so
20161004 16:41:38< celticminstrel> This seems bad.
20161004 16:41:48< DeFender1031> i think it's... 100? 1000? that they say "don't use a value lower"
20161004 16:42:03< shadowm> celticminstrel: Mainline could carry sorting data in [game_config] or something.
20161004 16:42:27< celticminstrel> Okay, if they're already doing that, then here's a possible way to fix it up.
20161004 16:42:38< shadowm> Any tag that is never handled when reading add-ons data would do.
20161004 16:42:41< celticminstrel> Add a new attribute "group".
20161004 16:42:53< celticminstrel> Mainline campaigns have "group=mainline".
20161004 16:43:05< celticminstrel> Sort by group, and within groups, sort by rank.
20161004 16:43:13< DeFender1031> (personally, i have my campaign and test code using a rank of 0 at the moment so that it's at the top of the list when I go to test it, but i'm obviously not going to leave it there when it's done.)
20161004 16:43:14< celticminstrel> And force "mainline" first.
20161004 16:43:30< celticminstrel> There's still a problem of how to ensure an addon doesn't use group=mainline though...
20161004 16:44:15< shadowm> There's no need for group. The game knows where mainline campaigns and add-ons come from.
20161004 16:44:17< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, that'd work, though i'd recommend that that be only when sorting by rank if there's also a chronological option. (Obviously, there'd need to be an attribute added for "year=" for chronological order stuff)
20161004 16:44:36< DeFender1031> shadowm, that means hard-coding it though
20161004 16:44:37< celticminstrel> Yeah, maybe there should be options for sorting.
20161004 16:44:57< celticminstrel> shadowm: Good point, we can just check the addon path maybe?
20161004 16:45:05< shadowm> DeFender1031: Not necessarily. The game knows that add-ons are add-ons.
20161004 16:45:10< DeFender1031> but it would be nice to be able to play in chronological order without having to cross-reference with the wiki's timeline page
20161004 16:45:36< DeFender1031> shadowm, if that's so then i'd also recommend that add-on campaigns look different in the list
20161004 16:45:38< shadowm> It could, for example, inject WML into add-on [campaign] tags during loading.
20161004 16:46:05< shadowm> Or conversely into mainline [campaign]s.
20161004 16:46:12< DeFender1031> so that if it's sorted in a way that they're intermingled, it'll be clear what's "official" and what's not.
20161004 16:46:45< shadowm> So you could still achieve something using a [campaign] attribute that even if add-on authors specify will be clobbered during loading.
20161004 16:46:56< DeFender1031> (then again, shadowm, most people consider your IFtU canon, so you may as well mainline it... :P)
20161004 16:47:46< DeFender1031> (kidding, of course.)
20161004 16:48:27< shadowm> Yeah, at the time I thought it was a good idea to set my campaigns to rank immediately after UtBS, but everyone and their dog must've done the same since then.
20161004 17:05:51< DeFender1031> competing for add-on rank is silly. I plan to find a nice, unused range and stick mine there. If I ever make a sequel (unlikely) it'll be with its own kind, not attempting to shove itself as close as possible to mainline.
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20161004 19:44:36< Loonquawl_42> Nice to see the discussion continued while i was away for rl-stuffs. Learning somethign new with each sentence it feels like :)
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20161004 20:16:42< DeFender1031> Loonquawl_42, glad you appreciate.
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20161004 20:51:11< Loonquawl_42> Well, it gets a bit more manageble when you do small, straightforward missions instead of "run to the edge of the map to win and remember that you need elite units in 20+ maps btw" :)
20161004 20:51:51< Loonquawl_42> Doing Tale of 2 brothers as we speak, better suited from a noob perspective imo, atleast for me personally.
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20161004 21:23:48< DeFender1031> are there any tools for testing animations that don't involve changing the WML, exiting the scenario and reloading? Maybe something that would let me play with WML inside the system and then hit "test" and see the results?
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20161004 21:40:31< zookeeper> DeFender1031, nope
20161004 21:41:47< DeFender1031> zookeeper, okay... is there a function in lua to parse a string into a cfg?
20161004 21:42:17< zookeeper> there wasn't the last time i wanted one
20161004 21:42:32< DeFender1031> :/
20161004 21:42:40< DeFender1031> if there was, i could hack something together...
20161004 21:42:49< DeFender1031> aw well... guess it's the old fashined way
20161004 21:44:57< DeFender1031> in theory, i could re-implement the parsing in lua, and then use that to create a test scenarion that allows you to test animations on the fly using [insert_tag] black magic, but that'll probably take longer and be more annoying than just testing animations the old fashioned way... probably.
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 05 00:00:02 2016