--- Log opened Thu Nov 17 00:00:30 2016
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20161117 00:26:21< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12096 (test_button - f642343 : Celtic Minstrel): The build was fixed.
20161117 00:26:21< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/176508571
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20161117 00:26:51< celticminstrel> Well, that's good, but I was more interested in the spirit_po branch...
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20161117 01:16:32< vultraz> celticminstrel: i wonder if the font scaling option should not be in 1.14
20161117 01:22:49-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161117 01:23:07< vultraz> also:
20161117 01:23:11< vultraz> "Microsoft Visual Studio, or something like it, will soon be available for macOS, a shift that reflects the company's effort to be more open toward non-Windows technology.
20161117 01:23:12< vultraz> Microsoft published the announcement prematurely and then withdrew it. The news, captured by archive.org, is scheduled to coincide with Microsoft Connect(); – a developer event scheduled for November 16 and 17 in New York City."
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20161117 01:26:52< aeth> I hate things that are named Foo() or foo() or I guess Foo(); in that case
20161117 01:27:00< aeth> Not every programming language has that function call syntax
20161117 01:27:55< aeth> and mixing in punctuation makes it annoying to talk about or search for, in general
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20161117 01:58:04< celticminstrel> vultraz: I think it should be in 1.14.
20161117 01:58:30< celticminstrel> However, if it cannot be made to work better, then it's better to temporarily remove it from the UI.
20161117 01:59:21< celticminstrel> aeth: I kind of agree.
20161117 01:59:42 * celticminstrel occasionally uses one language with different call syntax - Objective-C.
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20161117 02:30:01< aeth> celticminstrel: what is its syntax?
20161117 02:30:47< celticminstrel> [object method: first_arg argname2: second_arg] etc
20161117 02:30:51< celticminstrel> Scheme-like IIRC
20161117 02:31:03< aeth> Lisp and Scheme do (foo)
20161117 02:31:12< aeth> so yeah, that's basically the other way of doing it, (foo) instead of foo()
20161117 02:31:18< aeth> well, the other main way
20161117 02:31:19< celticminstrel> The name of that example method would be "method:argname2:".
20161117 02:31:49< aeth> Let me look up how it's done in Haskell
20161117 02:32:03< aeth> I think it's just a space
20161117 02:32:26< celticminstrel> It's not quite like you say, as it's very much object-oriented - the first element in the [] must be an object, and the rest specifies a message to pass to that object.
20161117 02:32:37< celticminstrel> Which the object may or may not actually implement.
20161117 02:32:50< celticminstrel> Maybe it was Smalltalk-like.
20161117 02:32:53< celticminstrel> I can't remember.
20161117 02:33:18< aeth> celticminstrel: in Common Lisp, when you do a method call it's similar except it goes (method object1 object2 ...) because it uses multiple-dispatch (i.e. methods don't belong to an object)
20161117 02:33:27< celticminstrel> I just remember reading it was similar to some language that begins with S, which generally means either Scheme or Smalltalk.
20161117 02:33:37< aeth> that's probably Smalltalk
20161117 02:33:45< aeth> Scheme doesn't have a built-in portable object system in the spec
20161117 02:33:50< aeth> Common Lisp, another Lisp, does.
20161117 02:34:01< aeth> Common Lisp is probably more directly comparable to an object oriented language
20161117 02:35:45< celticminstrel> [object thing] can either be "retrieve the thing attribute from object" or "call the no-argument thing method of object".
20161117 02:36:13< celticminstrel> object.thing also works for the former, IIRC
20161117 02:36:50< aeth> the latter is *almost* identical to Common Lisp syntax for method calls, but as I said, CL makes it (thing object) sort of like a normal function call because of the way its multiple-dispatch works
20161117 02:37:00< aeth> and I guess () vs []
20161117 02:37:12< aeth> That's interesting how similar the syntax for that is, though.
20161117 02:37:24< celticminstrel> I guess I've actually used Lisp-syntax too.
20161117 02:37:30< celticminstrel> Though with the parentheses optional.
20161117 02:38:21< aeth> The problem with optional parentheses is that you then can't have something like &rest foo, which Common Lisp permits, so e.g. (+ 1 2 3 4 5)
20161117 02:38:57< celticminstrel> No, you can.
20161117 02:38:59< aeth> Optional parens work in similar postfix/prefix languages as long as you have fixed-length function/method/whatever calls only
20161117 02:39:13< aeth> unless I guess you make the ()s required for the &rest stuff
20161117 02:39:23< celticminstrel> Right.
20161117 02:39:51< celticminstrel> A procedure has a default number of arguments; to call it with a different number, you need the parentheses.
20161117 02:40:00< celticminstrel> It also has infix operators.
20161117 02:40:17< aeth> now that for infix is strange
20161117 02:40:37< celticminstrel> Well, they're built-in.
20161117 02:43:50< aeth> yeah, but e.g. this is similar to your description of optional parentheses mixed with infix: foo 1 + 1 2 * 2 3 + 3
20161117 02:44:28< aeth> I wouldn't want to mess with that without an IDE
20161117 02:44:56< celticminstrel> It doesn't seem ambiguous or anything though..
20161117 02:45:16< celticminstrel> Unless you had negative numbers maybe. I dunno.
20161117 02:45:19< aeth> it's not ambiguous, but it could easily get tricky in a more practical use
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20161117 02:45:41< aeth> e.g. foo -i * 3 j -k + 4
20161117 02:45:57< aeth> assuming - serves double duty as subtraction and negation like in many languages
20161117 02:46:22< celticminstrel> I don't remember how this was handled.
20161117 02:46:28< celticminstrel> I don't really use it anymore.
20161117 02:47:15< aeth> - doubling as subtraction and negation, which almost every language does afaik, can lead to some interesting complications in a lot of circumstances, though, not just that
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20161117 02:50:05< celticminstrel> (For the record, the language I'm referring to is UCB Logo.)
20161117 02:50:39< aeth> Logo is Lisp-derived
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20161117 02:51:03< celticminstrel> Yes.
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20161117 02:57:04< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12099 (spirit_po - bba0467 : Celtic Minstrel): The build has errored.
20161117 02:57:04< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/176526167
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20161117 02:57:42< vultraz> 20161117 01:00:21 error filesystem: could not open or create user data directory at 
20161117 02:57:44< celticminstrel> Something went wrong with the tests.
20161117 02:57:49< vultraz> that
20161117 02:58:02< aeth> Has anyone tried putting all Wesnoth sprites into one big sprite sheet and seeing if that makes a performance improvement?
20161117 02:58:07< celticminstrel> Yes.
20161117 02:58:27< celticminstrel> I'm guessing that test failure is related to https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ec6c4d11dd654d6b43c30794fc014aeb848be64d
20161117 02:58:34< vultraz> aeth: not possible yet
20161117 02:58:47< celticminstrel> vultraz: It's totally possible to do even now.
20161117 02:58:56< vultraz> aeth: i mean, it is, but our shitty rendering pipeline would make it inefficient 
20161117 02:59:03< celticminstrel> But I think it'd probably decrease performance with the software renderer.
20161117 02:59:22< vultraz> anyway, Wesnoth 2 has already spritesheeted everything
20161117 02:59:26< vultraz> so if we ever get the support we need
20161117 02:59:29< vultraz> we can just import that
20161117 02:59:31< celticminstrel> Apparently there's even a branch for it: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commits/spritesheet
20161117 02:59:44< celticminstrel> Though I have my doubts on whether any of that code is useable now.
20161117 03:00:01< vultraz> likely not
20161117 03:00:13< celticminstrel> Well, I suppose some of it probably is, but the rendering portion probably would need to be rewritten.
20161117 03:00:40< aeth> I've been playing with writing rendering code for different things
20161117 03:00:53< celticminstrel> I personally would use one spritesheet per unit type (at the filesystem level, at least).
20161117 03:00:58< vultraz> when we go down that road we should look heavily to anura for reference
20161117 03:01:07< aeth> 2D should actually be easier than what I've been doing with OpenGL because afaik it's all textured quads
20161117 03:01:11< celticminstrel> Preferably a spritesheet with border.
20161117 03:01:13< vultraz> they have a great sheet syntax, generation utility, etc
20161117 03:01:22< aeth> And Wesnoth's probably not going to add things like sprite lighting
20161117 03:01:28< celticminstrel> Because these sprites are partially transparent, so the border can make it clearer where one ends and the next begins.
20161117 03:01:48< vultraz> celticminstrel: https://github.com/anura-engine/wesnoth2/blob/master/images/units/elvesfighter.png
20161117 03:02:06< vultraz> exactly as you requested :)
20161117 03:02:22< vultraz> as I said, we can use these verbatim if we ever get the support
20161117 03:02:26< celticminstrel> Ugh, why does it waste so much space.
20161117 03:02:45< celticminstrel> I don't think that's quite the kind of border I was imagining though.
20161117 03:02:52< vultraz> to keep animations on a single line
20161117 03:03:04< celticminstrel> In my opinion, that's a terrible reason.
20161117 03:03:21< aeth> unless that's a pre-compiled form and they compile to something better, that's horrible
20161117 03:03:39< celticminstrel> The standing animation should be split into at least two lines IMO, and the single sprite animations should be merged into probably one line.
20161117 03:03:53< celticminstrel> That would reduce it to about four lines.
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20161117 03:04:05< vultraz> it's all automatically generated with a tool
20161117 03:04:14< vultraz> and the syntax is as so:
20161117 03:04:16< vultraz> 			"duration": 6,
20161117 03:04:18< vultraz> 			"frames": 12,
20161117 03:04:20< vultraz> 			"id": "idle",
20161117 03:04:21< vultraz> 			"image": "units/elvesfighter.png",
20161117 03:04:23< vultraz> 			"pad": 3,
20161117 03:04:24< vultraz> 			"rect": [3,378,74,449],
20161117 03:04:26< vultraz> 			"scale": 1
20161117 03:04:28< vultraz> much nicer than anything in wesnoth
20161117 03:04:37< celticminstrel> Sounds less flexible though.
20161117 03:04:39< vultraz> in wesnoth, right now, we'd need to specify a million ~CROPs
20161117 03:05:04< aeth> Wesnoth does have to switch to *something*, though, before 4k monitors become really popular
20161117 03:05:08< vultraz> also, this code is *all* automatically generated
20161117 03:05:13< aeth> The way Wesnoth scales, or rather doesn't, is bad for high res screens
20161117 03:05:35< vultraz> we just ran a tool and it spit out working spritesheets and data
20161117 03:06:08< vultraz> much superior to wesnoth in that regard
20161117 03:06:23< vultraz> where you have to write out ALL the things
20161117 03:06:49< vultraz> here's the whole file as generated: https://github.com/anura-engine/wesnoth2/blob/master/data/objects/units/unit_avatar_elves_fighter.cfg
20161117 03:06:50< celticminstrel> But inferior in flexibility.
20161117 03:06:52< aeth> Wesnoth sets a low bar for engine design, though. It's quite old
20161117 03:07:11< aeth> Just about everything has changed recently
20161117 03:07:20< celticminstrel> Hmm, okay, what you described was actually the description of one frame?
20161117 03:07:30< celticminstrel> Maybe it's about equal in flexibility, then.
20161117 03:07:51< celticminstrel> But can it handle multiple things going on at the same time? Like Wesnoth's halos and missiles and such.
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20161117 03:08:09< celticminstrel> Also, needing to specify the rect isn't great.
20161117 03:08:18< vultraz> celticminstrel: indeed, anura doesn't have the exact same level of customization as wesnoth, *but* it allows you to do things better than wesnoth. for example, instead of specifying opacity for individual frames for the Ghost, we can make it fade in and out in a sine wave.
20161117 03:08:31< vultraz> celticminstrel: and no, that's not one frame, it's one *animation*
20161117 03:08:50< vultraz> the engine calculates the frames given the set parameters
20161117 03:08:50< celticminstrel> vultraz: Your link is one animation, what you pasted directly here before that is one frame.
20161117 03:09:09< vultraz> no it's not
20161117 03:09:20< vultraz> read again
20161117 03:09:28< celticminstrel> It'd be nicer if you could just say "Tiles are this size, the border between them is that size, the border around the spritesheet is that size, and I want the sprite at x,y".
20161117 03:09:31< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20161117 03:09:41< vultraz> celticminstrel: that's *exactly* what it does
20161117 03:09:49< vultraz> "frames": 12,
20161117 03:09:52< vultraz> 12 frame animation
20161117 03:09:56< vultraz> "pad": 3,
20161117 03:10:02< celticminstrel> Ah, you're right, so it does seem inferior to Wesnoth in flexibility, then.
20161117 03:10:02< vultraz> 3 px padding between frames on the sheet
20161117 03:10:19< celticminstrel> What's the rect then?
20161117 03:10:20< vultraz> "rect": [3,378,74,449],
20161117 03:10:26< celticminstrel> I don't like that you need to specify a rect.
20161117 03:10:29< vultraz> the dimensions of the relevant animation
20161117 03:10:49< vultraz> again, this is all automatically generated 
20161117 03:10:53< celticminstrel> But really, that seems far too small for a typical animation.
20161117 03:11:02< celticminstrel> Admittedly, these particular examples are really simple ones...
20161117 03:11:16< vultraz> and i will repeat:
20161117 03:11:18< vultraz> [14:08:16]	vultraz	celticminstrel: indeed, anura doesn't have the exact same level of customization as wesnoth, *but* it allows you to do things better than wesnoth. for example, instead of specifying opacity for individual frames for the Ghost, we can make it fade in and out in a sine wave.
20161117 03:11:36 * celticminstrel checks out the silver mage... doesn't look any better...
20161117 03:11:53< vultraz> you don't get the exact frame lengths from wesnoth, but it certainly looks fine
20161117 03:12:04< vultraz> it trades some bloat for simplicity 
20161117 03:12:13< vultraz> [14:07:49]	celticminstrel	But can it handle multiple things going on at the same time? Like Wesnoth's halos and missiles and such.
20161117 03:12:15< vultraz> of course
20161117 03:12:22< celticminstrel> Anyway, it doesn't sound like exactly what I said with the way of specifying the sprite.
20161117 03:12:30< vultraz> talk to Sirp 
20161117 03:12:35< celticminstrel> Nah.
20161117 03:12:37< vultraz> he can give you a more detailed overview
20161117 03:12:40< celticminstrel> I don't care that much.
20161117 03:12:42< vultraz> and i need to go to lunch
20161117 03:12:52< celticminstrel> I mean, it's not like I'm likely to use the Anura engine anytime soon.
20161117 03:13:02< vultraz> i didn't say we would
20161117 03:13:11< celticminstrel> I said me, not we, as in personal projects.
20161117 03:13:11< vultraz> just that we should model a spritesheet parser after it
20161117 03:13:20< vultraz> because it is great
20161117 03:13:23< vultraz> and easy to use
20161117 03:13:43< vultraz> and doesn't suck like wesnoth's bloated animation code.
20161117 03:13:52 * vultraz out to lunch
20161117 03:14:18< celticminstrel> In my opinion, given a spritesheet definition, it should be possible to pick a specific sprite from it with just an X and Y coordinate - the first sprite is (0,0), the one to its right is (1,0), etc.
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20161117 03:16:30< celticminstrel> Anyway, I'm not saying Anura's animation engine looks bad, but it certainly can't just replace Wesnoth's.
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20161117 03:32:06< iceiceice> celticminstrel, if u want to create some kind of like stand-alone spritesheet / animation parser that's compatible with wesnoth / anura i would probably collaborate
20161117 03:34:26< iceiceice> i dont like that so much of the anura code is monolithic, it seems needless to me
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20161117 09:06:12< zookeeper> "instead of specifying opacity for individual frames for the Ghost, we can make it fade in and out in a sine wave" <- wesnoth could do the latter just fine already. you're only limited to 1) an approximation of a sine wave and 2) having to match the wave to the animation length, instead of it being independent from it.
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20161117 09:07:29< vultraz> I see
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20161117 09:07:49< zookeeper> well you've done enough WML yourself to know that, surely :p
20161117 09:08:29< vultraz> I've barely touched AnimationWML
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20161117 09:09:19< zookeeper> right, okay
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20161117 09:10:32< vultraz> it's really, really messy
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20161117 09:12:28< zookeeper> depends on what you do. it doesn't have to be messy at all.
20161117 09:12:42< vultraz> it
20161117 09:12:46< vultraz> 's less messy now
20161117 09:12:51< vultraz> since we have bracket syntax
20161117 09:16:24< zookeeper> yep
20161117 09:18:14< zookeeper> Jetrel_bot, quick, say something to this guy to make him stay: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=44829
20161117 09:22:06< Jetrel_bot> zookeeper:  done. :)
20161117 09:22:44< zookeeper> great
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20161117 09:45:53< DeFender1031> vultraz, speaking of bracket syntax, i'm working on clearing a partition today to test out the upgrades I was telling you about and ultimately (hopefully) upgrade my system so I can actually compile.
20161117 09:46:12< DeFender1031> (Which will lead to me being able to rewrite that bracket parsing function)
20161117 09:48:19< vultraz> good, good
20161117 09:51:40< DeFender1031> (and then take on more projects after that)
20161117 09:51:50< vultraz> good, good, good
20161117 09:52:30< DeFender1031> and as i'm doing this, i'm noticing the partition structure of this machine and wondering what the hell I was thinking when I set it up
20161117 09:53:24< DeFender1031> i have four physical drives, and the two newest are set up sanely, with a single partition and mounted to a location in my home directory so i can dump large amounts of files on them.
20161117 09:54:21< DeFender1031> but the two that have been in here since I built the machine each have like 4 partitions, which are mounted into each other like dogs on a tuesday.
20161117 09:56:25< DeFender1031> still, i only need one clear partition to test the upgrades, and the one i have in mind got corrupted somehow like 3 years ago and i never got around to repartitioning it
20161117 09:56:45< DeFender1031> so i don't need to actually clean up this mess to make it work
20161117 10:08:09< vultraz> much mess, have you
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20161117 10:14:09< DeFender1031> yes... it actually just got weirder... i have 8 directories (in the same place, labeled 1-8) which seem to be somehow mounting the same partition except A: putting stuff in one doesn't show up in the others and B: there doesn't seem to be anything that refers to those directories that isn't commented out in either my /etc/fstab or the custom startup script i wrote to mount this craziness
20161117 10:14:22< DeFender1031> i can't figure out why these are even mounting
20161117 10:14:30< DeFender1031> (let alone why they even exist)
20161117 10:16:07 * vultraz is glad he is a simple windows user
20161117 10:17:27< DeFender1031> look, to be fair, this was 7-years-ago-me playing with things that he shouldn't have been playing with.
20161117 10:17:44< DeFender1031> this particular conundrum is not typical of linux users
20161117 10:18:17< DeFender1031> i wish i could go smack 7-years-ago-me and ask him what the hell he's thinking.
20161117 10:18:26< vultraz> ...xD
20161117 10:19:00< vultraz> let me guess, you probably thought you were like, a hacker or something, because you could create partitions?
20161117 10:19:04< vultraz> t'is a familiar feeling
20161117 10:20:23< vultraz> the equivalent for me was toolbars in IE
20161117 10:20:25< vultraz> like
20161117 10:20:37< vultraz> I thought toolbars were The Shit 
20161117 10:20:56< vultraz> and i fucking kid you not - i once looked up how to install toolbars... in Chrome :|
20161117 10:21:21 * vultraz facepalms
20161117 10:21:38< vultraz> this was a little before I discovered wesnoth and asked zookeeper if _main.cfg was a folder >_>
20161117 10:23:20< vultraz> (also, I seem to have misread "7-years-ago-me" as "7-years-me" :P )
20161117 10:23:33< vultraz> 7 year old on linux would be impressive in hindsight
20161117 10:24:34< DeFender1031> ah
20161117 10:24:58< DeFender1031> yeah, that would be impressive.
20161117 10:25:25< vultraz> so yeah, my above comment doesn't really apply to age - 7
20161117 10:25:29< vultraz> only if age = 7
20161117 10:25:48< vultraz> sorry :P
20161117 10:26:08< DeFender1031> and some of what i was thinking was "i have different drives of different performance specs, let me optimize what directories are on what drive by how frequently they're written vs. how frequently they're read to get the best performance".
20161117 10:27:05 * vultraz has no idea how one would even do that
20161117 10:27:16< DeFender1031> that doesn't explain the spots where a partition is mounted into a subdirectory of another partition on the same drive though, nor this 1-8 stuff or how that's getting mounted.
20161117 10:28:14< vultraz> solution: all new drives! :D
20161117 10:28:34< DeFender1031> vultraz, the idea was that all my system files are on my faster, smaller drive, and then a partition of the slower drive mounted as /home so that my personal files wouldn't take over the partition used for high-access system files.
20161117 10:28:49< DeFender1031> not quite a solution, would need a whole new install as well.
20161117 10:29:24< DeFender1031> the current madness CAN be untangled... i just need to figure out where the mount command for these directories is actually coming from.
20161117 10:30:34< vultraz> personally, im glad i did away with C and D on my current laptop
20161117 10:30:36< vultraz> and just have C
20161117 10:30:39< vultraz> and everything on C
20161117 10:31:08< vultraz> or did it just come that way
20161117 10:31:10 * vultraz cannot remember
20161117 10:31:19< vultraz> i do remember when i had my old laptop, i had c and 
20161117 10:31:27< vultraz> and kinda obsessively put large stuff on D..
20161117 10:31:29< vultraz> for some reason
20161117 10:31:48< vultraz> and then i dual-booted linux too
20161117 10:32:06< vultraz> and i *think* that might have partitioned it further
20161117 10:33:39< vultraz> then i swapped the drive
20161117 10:33:49< vultraz> and i can't remember what i did wit them
20161117 10:34:03< vultraz> actually, that was also the laptop where the screen literally fell off
20161117 10:35:34< DeFender1031> hahaha
20161117 10:36:48< vultraz> anyway, again, sorry for the weird aforementioned comment
20161117 10:37:01< vultraz> it really made more sense when i thought you said your 7 year old self :P
20161117 10:37:05< vultraz> though in hindsight
20161117 10:37:07< vultraz> (again)
20161117 10:37:18< vultraz> that would also mean an at-least 14 year old compiter
20161117 10:37:23< vultraz> computer 
20161117 10:39:34< DeFender1031> honestly, i didn't really see any comment that was out of place even for the actual meaning.
20161117 10:41:26< DeFender1031> 7 years ago I was fresh out of college, though I understood everything better than everyone else, and... kinda did think i was some kind of hacker because I could create partitions.
20161117 10:43:23< DeFender1031> thought*
20161117 10:50:47< vultraz> oh, huh, i thought you were *in* college 
20161117 10:51:21< vultraz> then again, I assume everyone is in college
20161117 10:51:27< vultraz> by default
20161117 10:56:06< DeFender1031> vultraz, are you in college?
20161117 10:56:19< vultraz> nearly 
20161117 10:57:22< DeFender1031> what does that mean?
20161117 10:58:19< vultraz> behind in school due to dedicating time to wesnoth :P
20161117 10:58:37< DeFender1031> so you're in high school?
20161117 11:01:15< vultraz> indeed
20161117 11:02:05< DeFender1031> dang. I would not have guessed that from our interactions.
20161117 11:02:34 * DeFender1031 now wonders if he's the oldest one here.
20161117 11:02:37< vultraz> do you mean that in a good way or not :P
20161117 11:02:54< DeFender1031> yes, i mean that in the best way possible.
20161117 11:02:57< zookeeper> DeFender1031, tad_carlucci beats everyone else, i believe
20161117 11:03:03< DeFender1031> zookeeper, ah, good point.
20161117 11:03:56< DeFender1031> vultraz, I would have guessed at least post-college.
20161117 11:04:05< vultraz> huh
20161117 11:04:06< vultraz> :D
20161117 11:05:03< zookeeper> vultraz has just been learning like a good padawan
20161117 11:05:17< DeFender1031> right
20161117 11:05:53< DeFender1031> vultraz, I thought I'd made enough references to my day job being a serious development gig that it'd have been obvious that I was post-college
20161117 11:06:08< vultraz> that is true
20161117 11:07:46< DeFender1031> also, when I was in high school, I didn't do anything productive or creative, even for fun. I kinda pretended I wanted to, and part of me really DID want to, but I was more interested in just sitting and playing gamecube all day.
20161117 11:08:29< vultraz> gamecube...
20161117 11:08:33< vultraz> I see...
20161117 11:08:36< DeFender1031> so someone working seriously on an open source project like this already ranks higher in maturity level than my own HS experience.
20161117 11:08:38< vultraz> that most ancient of devices
20161117 11:09:06< vultraz> (though I have actually used once once or twice :P )
20161117 11:09:10< DeFender1031> vultraz, hahahaha. The gamecube must be to you what the NES was to me.
20161117 11:09:20< vultraz> generally yeah
20161117 11:10:37< DeFender1031> my neighbors had a SNES, another friend had an N64, but the GC was the first nintendo console I owned. (We had an Atari Jaguar before that)
20161117 11:11:15< vultraz> An Atari what?
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20161117 11:11:37< DeFender1031> yeah, most people never heard of it... it didn't do well (despite having some great games IMO)
20161117 11:11:54< DeFender1031> vultraz, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar
20161117 11:12:21< vultraz> 1993...
20161117 11:12:25< vultraz> man, I wasn't even born
20161117 11:12:31< zookeeper> ah, jaguar
20161117 11:12:50< zookeeper> we sold our SNES to get the jaguar, had it for probably less than a year, and then sold it to get a SNES back :>
20161117 11:12:59< DeFender1031> zookeeper, haha.
20161117 11:13:09< DeFender1031> my favorite jaguar game was rayman
20161117 11:13:15< vultraz> zookeeper actually owned a console??
20161117 11:13:17< vultraz> what is this O_O
20161117 11:13:22< DeFender1031> i'm kind of a rayman hipster. liked it before it was cool.
20161117 11:13:29< DeFender1031> (no one had even heard of rayman back then)
20161117 11:14:06< DeFender1031> the jaguar version is apparetnly considered insanely hard though... i dunno, never had as much trouble with it as I had with super mario...
20161117 11:14:48< vultraz> ive never owned a console
20161117 11:14:50< vultraz> PC only
20161117 11:14:51< vultraz> :P
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20161117 11:15:12< zookeeper> vultraz, well of course i've had consoles. NES, SNES, jaguar, PS2, kind of even had an xbox for years even though i didn't own it
20161117 11:15:33< zookeeper> oh and N64 too of course
20161117 11:15:47< vultraz> p_p
20161117 11:16:00< zookeeper> how i could i have forgotten the N64? silly me
20161117 11:16:14 * DeFender1031 has owned Jaguar, GameCube, original playstation, PS2, and Wii
20161117 11:17:27< zookeeper> the N64 and xbox just were pretty much the last consoles i spent any serious time with. i still have a PS2 but i've never played with it a lot.
20161117 11:17:39< DeFender1031> I'm actually super-pissed at myself, I fried my PS2 accidentally. (Plugged it in without a transformer.) :(
20161117 11:17:47< DeFender1031> Not recently.
20161117 11:17:52< zookeeper> aww
20161117 11:17:54< DeFender1031> But still pissed at myself when I think about it.
20161117 11:18:10< DeFender1031> Basically, it's a U.S. PS2 and i'm not in the US.
20161117 11:18:36< wedge009> I remember the Jaguar, though I don't think I ever saw one.
20161117 11:18:39< DeFender1031> So... voltage difference.
20161117 11:19:01< wedge009> Yeah, no auto-switching power units in those days.
20161117 11:19:29< DeFender1031> yep, though there were at the point when I fried it.
20161117 11:20:05< DeFender1031> hence my confusion... i actually have an auto-switching power cord for my wii, and I forgot that the PS2's was... not such.
20161117 11:24:12< wedge009> I did something just as stupid. I absent-mindedly flicked the manual voltage selector switch at the back of a computer power supply... forgetting that it was still plugged into the wall socket with the power switched on.
20161117 11:24:28< wedge009> (Though the computer itself was not running.)
20161117 11:24:33< wedge009> ~bzzt!~
20161117 11:24:35< DeFender1031> that's... bad.
20161117 11:24:47< DeFender1031> hopefully you only plew the PS and not the MB
20161117 11:24:51< DeFender1031> blew*
20161117 11:24:54< wedge009> Yeah, just the PSU.
20161117 11:25:44< DeFender1031> Reminds me of the time in college when every computer in the classroom exploded one time when the AC came on...
20161117 11:25:57< wedge009> O.O
20161117 11:26:03< wedge009> Surge?
20161117 11:26:05< DeFender1031> not violently, mind you.
20161117 11:26:11< DeFender1031> must have been, yeah
20161117 11:26:32< DeFender1031> they all needed their power supplies replaced.
20161117 11:27:16< wedge009> In my first year of high school. Kids being kids. They joked that I was responsible for a black-out one time because I hit the reset button just as the power cut out (I think we used to need to press them quite often, as this was back in the days of Windows 95...)
20161117 11:27:31< DeFender1031> these were the school's computers anyway, so whatever.
20161117 11:27:38< wedge009> Yeah, but that's a bugger.
20161117 11:27:39< zookeeper> wedge009, oh yeah i did that once when i still didn't know anything about computerses. i didn't even occur to me that there could be a switch which would just fry the PSU.
20161117 11:27:48< DeFender1031> ah, the reset button!
20161117 11:27:55< wedge009> zookeeper: Glad I'm not the only one!
20161117 11:28:24< wedge009> But I think I should have been smart enough to know not to do that at the time. I was just thinking about something else and saw a switch to play around with. x.x
20161117 11:28:42< DeFender1031> zookeeper, yeah, it's like "why would they make a switch that you break the thing if you touch it?"
20161117 11:29:06< zookeeper> i think we just had a new computer and i was plugging it in and i flipped the switch because it seemed like a power switch or something
20161117 11:29:08< wedge009> Actually, no, it couldn't have been Windows 95, it was 1994.
20161117 11:29:53< DeFender1031> wedge009, 3.1 then
20161117 11:29:59< wedge009> Oh, bugger. Not a power switch.
20161117 11:30:05< wedge009> Maybe.
20161117 11:30:22< DeFender1031> that also means you're older than me too.
20161117 11:30:33< DeFender1031> my first year of HS, we were already on xp.
20161117 11:30:43< zookeeper> hah
20161117 11:30:51< wedge009> Heh, yeah, I know you can work out my age from that. But I don't mind, I'm not terribly embarrassed by it as some people are.
20161117 11:31:22< DeFender1031> wedge009, oh, i was just referring to earlier when i was wondering if I was older than everyone here.
20161117 11:31:42< wedge009> High school, didn't even have Teh Interwebs. We played around with BBS but nothing anything useful.
20161117 11:32:24< wedge009> There'll always be someone older and someone younger. No big deal. At my age, it doesn't even make a difference (like in the office) unless you want to make a point of it.
20161117 11:32:41 * zookeeper smokes a pipe in a rocking chair
20161117 11:32:50< wedge009> I'm sure someone here will say they were old enough to remember punch cards. :p
20161117 11:33:15< DeFender1031> wedge009, IIRC, tad's from the punch card age.
20161117 11:33:17< zookeeper> oh wait i don't smoke. in fact, i was already not smoking back when smoking was still cool.
20161117 11:33:36< DeFender1031> either that or from jsut after it and I joked that it was the punch card age...
20161117 11:33:47< wedge009> Family's first computer was a 286. A giant Toshiba pre-cursor to the laptop. 10 MiB hard disk. 4 'colour' display. 1 MiB of RAM. Whee!
20161117 11:33:59< wedge009> Dad got it ex-office when we moved from UK.
20161117 11:34:57< DeFender1031> I was born into a family that already had an Apple IIe
20161117 11:34:57< wedge009> That's pretty cool about tad if it's true. My first real job, my boss told me about how he would hack the punch cards to get more CPU time than he was allowed, back in uni days. Or something like that.
20161117 11:35:36< wedge009> Apple IIes... reminds me of primary school.
20161117 11:36:47< zookeeper> we had a home computer relatively late, _but_ then it was a pentium and better than anyone else's crappy 486's
20161117 11:37:31< zookeeper> and a real sound card that wasn't a bleep-bloop sound blaster
20161117 11:37:38< zookeeper> that was the greatest thing
20161117 11:37:48< wedge009> 486, original Pentium and Pentium II were all pretty similar, as I recall.
20161117 11:37:58< zookeeper> hush
20161117 11:38:09< wedge009> Sound Blaster?
20161117 11:38:23< wedge009> Only bleep-bloop I remember was the basic PC speaker driver.
20161117 11:38:51< wedge009> Sound Blaster, at least starting from 16, had a reasonable FM synthesiser.
20161117 11:39:22< zookeeper> wasn't SB16 the one which had the really crappy synthesizer?
20161117 11:39:45< zookeeper> i mean the midi synthesizer
20161117 11:39:52< zookeeper> or whatever you call it
20161117 11:40:09< wedge009> It might not be great by today's standards, but it was a big step-up from the PC speaker that was what most people had in those days.
20161117 11:40:26< wedge009> A marginal step up from AdLib, at least.
20161117 11:40:46< zookeeper> maybe i misremember then
20161117 11:40:48< wedge009> Ah, fun days of DOS and memory and drivers, and what-not.
20161117 11:41:08< zookeeper> unpacking games with arj from 10 floppies
20161117 11:41:31< wedge009> Having to configure and reconfigure AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS to extract every last bit of 'conventional' memory (first 640 KiB).
20161117 11:41:40< wedge009> Oh yeah, arj!
20161117 11:41:50< wedge009> And floppies, yeah.
20161117 11:42:00< wedge009> Both 5.25" and the 3.5"
20161117 11:42:19< zookeeper> i still have a few spare floppies and a floppy drive (not plugged in)... just in case! never know when you need a boot disk... :p
20161117 11:42:33< wedge009> I used floppies right up till uni days, early 2000s. I was a bit later to the USB flash drive party.
20161117 11:42:40< zookeeper> oh i never used a 5.25". those had just barely passed by the time i got into things.
20161117 11:42:45< wedge009> Yeah, boot disks... x.x
20161117 11:43:02< wedge009> I didn't use the big floppies much. But we did have the drive for it. And a few blanks.
20161117 11:43:14< wedge009> I think might have had one or two games on those big disks.
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20161117 11:43:48< wedge009> Even the Toshiba I mentioned earlier used the 3.5" floppies. Probably for size.
20161117 11:46:10< DeFender1031> Apple IIe used those big ones.
20161117 11:46:58< DeFender1031> also relevant to this discussion is: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail143.html
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20161117 17:51:42< zookeeper> macro substitution for some reason doesn't work inside the optional macro argument defaults... i wonder if that'd be a terrible limitation.
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20161117 18:08:44< DeFender1031> zookeeper, yes. that would be incredibly annoying.
20161117 18:08:59< zookeeper> thought so
20161117 18:26:46< DeFender1031> there's also the question of whether that evaluation should be at register time or at use time
20161117 18:27:15< zookeeper> same as for the macro contents
20161117 18:27:23< DeFender1031> come to think of it... when are evaluations in general done? because it probably ought to match that behavio-yeah
20161117 18:27:35 * DeFender1031 goes to test that
20161117 18:30:06< DeFender1031> use time.
20161117 18:30:20< DeFender1031> (at leas tin 1.12)
20161117 18:30:41< celticminstrel> I doubt there've been major changes to the preprocessor since 1.12
20161117 18:31:16< DeFender1031> http://paste.nachsoftware.com/DeFender1031/QQrtH4c724afde4bc10ce405e582df76f00d0fxJ
20161117 18:31:23< zookeeper> so if you define macro A and then macro B which uses A internally, and then between than and your call to B you redefine A, the changes will take effect within your B call?
20161117 18:31:36< DeFender1031> zookeeper, see the example i pasted.
20161117 18:31:50< DeFender1031> and yes, they will.
20161117 18:32:13< celticminstrel> I seem to recall some shortcomings in the preprocessor related to conditionals within a macro definition...
20161117 18:32:34< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, how would that follow?
20161117 18:32:47< celticminstrel> Hmm?
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20161117 18:33:46< celticminstrel> It's not related to macro evaluation though.
20161117 18:34:30< DeFender1031> that's what i meant... i meant "how can how conditionals work be affected by the preprocessor beyond what code is being filled in?"
20161117 18:35:10< celticminstrel> I don't remember. I just vaguely recall zookeeper or mattsc or someone complaining that there was a problem with #ifdef inside #define.
20161117 18:35:18< celticminstrel> Actually, I think it was mattsc.
20161117 18:35:22< DeFender1031> oh
20161117 18:35:33< DeFender1031> you meant preprocessor conditionals
20161117 18:35:37< celticminstrel> (ie, between #define and #enddef)
20161117 18:35:38< DeFender1031> not wml conditionals
20161117 18:35:42< DeFender1031> yeah
20161117 18:35:46< celticminstrel> Maybe it was nested #defines... not sure.
20161117 18:36:00< DeFender1031> no, i recall this too, it was ifdefs
20161117 18:36:08< DeFender1031> don't recall what the issue was though
20161117 18:36:11< celticminstrel> I wonder if the recusion problem was ever solved.
20161117 18:36:32< DeFender1031> recursion?
20161117 18:36:55< celticminstrel> I don't know exactly, something about recursive macros exhausting the heap.
20161117 18:37:10< celticminstrel> (So I don't really recommend testing it... >_> )
20161117 18:37:23< celticminstrel> (Unless you can Ctrl+C.)
20161117 18:37:26< DeFender1031> meaning macros calling themselves?
20161117 18:37:31< celticminstrel> Maybe?
20161117 18:37:39< DeFender1031> sounds fun... let's go try that!
20161117 18:37:52< celticminstrel> <_<
20161117 18:38:03< DeFender1031> 20161117 21:09:07 error config: Too much nested preprocessing inclusions
20161117 18:38:14< DeFender1031> it doesn't get stuck, it just errors out.
20161117 18:40:03< DeFender1031> ah, but recursive macros DO work if they terminate somehow: http://paste.nachsoftware.com/DeFender1031/CTTwQ923675cea6dcb7ca1ecb582df9806bd5dGg
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20161117 18:42:27< DeFender1031> #ifdefs seem to work inside macros... i mean, those are also use-time rather than register-time, but they work as expected...
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20161117 18:44:28< gfgtdf> speking about ifdef, maybe someone wants to wokr on https://gna.org/bugs/?22969 ?
20161117 18:45:46< DeFender1031> gfgtdf, I was actually just thinking about this feature, and how I could be wrong but I THINK that if we had that, the preprocessor itself MIGHT end up being turing-complete.
20161117 18:46:11< celticminstrel> gfgtdf: Can you reiterate the reasons in favour of a threaded loading screen?
20161117 18:46:55< gfgtdf> there are also instances where 22969 coudl improve code n mianline, for exampel this buggery https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/f642343bc71c29c1e1068dec0e6b8611373d9fba/data/_main.cfg#L58 woudlhnt be needed
20161117 18:47:41< celticminstrel> That's not yet mainline though IIRC
20161117 18:48:12< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: 1) to add the loadingscreen animation, 2) to make the screen more repsonsive in loadingscreen 
20161117 18:48:19< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20161117 18:48:23< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes it from one of your banches
20161117 18:48:32< celticminstrel> Define "more responsive"?
20161117 18:51:45< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i'd need to test it again on 1.12 (currently downloading agelss to test but it talkes some time) to remeber what the acutla problems were. Alternativeley 1.13 has a (hiden) prefrence to disable the thrading during loadingscreen that can be used for testing.
20161117 18:51:52< gfgtdf> hidden*
20161117 18:52:29< celticminstrel> Wait, is that a preference that already exists?
20161117 18:53:35< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: yes but you can only enable it by editing the prefrences file not in the prefreences dialog.
20161117 18:55:03< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: add "disable_loadingscreen_animation=yes" to the prefrerences file.
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20161117 19:39:20< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i just dowloaded ageless in wesnoth 1.12.5 and some time after clicking on the of the loaginscreen wesnoths becomes greyed out it adds 'no response' on the titlescreen.
20161117 19:40:29< celticminstrel> Clicking on the what>
20161117 19:40:32< celticminstrel> ^?
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20161117 19:45:46< Ravana_> it always happens during "reading files and creating cache" message
20161117 20:00:27< celticminstrel> ?
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20161117 20:15:20< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: clicking anywhere on the window for example on the logo or the loadingbar
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20161117 21:53:13< celticminstrel> Okay, so basically I didn't account for the fact that boost::canonical returns an error code if you pass a nonexistent path.
20161117 21:54:14< celticminstrel> I should probably use nearest_extant_parent... but then how do I figure out which things need to be created...
20161117 21:54:24< celticminstrel> Or maybe I could create it first, then canonicalize...
20161117 21:54:44< celticminstrel> Hmm, yeah, that looks like it would work.
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20161117 22:31:20< irker772> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:spirit_po e9c32ee86edf / src/filesystem_boost.cpp: fixup! Normalize data and userdata paths https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e9c32ee86edf959454d164c7ace860af4e317fa2
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20161117 22:42:49< zookeeper> eh, can't i tell github to sync my fork's master with upstream master? it's kind of dumb to have to do it locally with all that downloading and uploading
20161117 22:43:19< celticminstrel> Hmm?
20161117 22:43:55< celticminstrel> Oh.
20161117 22:44:00< celticminstrel> I see what you mean.
20161117 22:44:04< celticminstrel> That is kinda dumb, yeah.
20161117 22:44:19< celticminstrel> Maybe you could use a pull request to get the effect.
20161117 22:44:28< celticminstrel> Since they now have a "rebase" option.
20161117 22:44:40< celticminstrel> ie, make a PR from wesnoth/wesnoth to your fork.
20161117 22:44:51< zookeeper> i'm sitting here waiting for my push to go through and it takes a while since it's like 40mb or something
20161117 22:45:09< zookeeper> (no idea how it's that much though)
20161117 22:45:24< zookeeper> oh it was just 15mb after all, the gauge was just all wrong
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20161117 22:52:27< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: we can now do rebasing via webpage?
20161117 22:52:48< celticminstrel> Apparently.
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20161117 23:20:43< celticminstrel> I wish someone else could reproduce this crash, but it seems like I'm the only one...
20161117 23:22:10< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: which crash exactly ?
20161117 23:23:00< celticminstrel> When I click "Load Map".
20161117 23:23:46< celticminstrel> I'd hoped ancestral's official release build wouldn't have it (since my TC issue also doesn't occur in the release), but it does, so it'll make it difficult for me to use the 1.13 map editor...
20161117 23:28:26< celticminstrel> Looks like the spirit_po build is now passing, though the OSX one hasn't even started for some reason.
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 18 00:00:16 2016