--- Log opened Mon Nov 28 00:00:11 2016
20161128 00:23:10< irker560> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 676768e44fa4 / src/sdl/color.cpp: color_t: make from_rgb[a]_string return transparent black (0,0,0,0) if color is  https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/676768e44fa4d477c741532c9d02b71c72367ae8
20161128 00:23:22< vultraz> celticminstrel: ^ fixed the gui2 color glitches
20161128 00:24:00< vultraz> the problem was most visible because of [rectangles] that omitted fill_color
20161128 00:24:08< celticminstrel> Not a great fix, but okay. I guess there's nothing we can do about it.
20161128 00:24:19< vultraz> though admittedly, I *could* make fill_color default to 0,0,0,0 instead..
20161128 00:24:44< celticminstrel> Nah, we can stick with this.
20161128 00:25:04< celticminstrel> Though we may only need it for from_rgba_string, not for from_rgb_string.
20161128 00:25:05< vultraz> ok
20161128 00:25:37< celticminstrel> I guess we'll deal with that when we start using from_rgb_string.
20161128 00:25:43< celticminstrel> (Currently only from_rgba_string is used.)
20161128 00:26:19< celticminstrel> The cases that use from_rgb_string might turn out to use some other default colour, in which case it won't matter.
20161128 00:26:30< celticminstrel> (A default colour specific to each case, perhaps.)
20161128 00:27:12< vultraz> anyway, we can begin deploying this now, i think
20161128 00:27:32< celticminstrel> Technically we already have (since I edited sdl/utils.cpp to use it)
20161128 00:28:06< vultraz> i meant further :P
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20161128 00:36:03< vultraz> first step is eliminating int_to_color and string_to_color
20161128 00:39:24< vultraz> to_sdl was a good idea
20161128 00:39:32< vultraz> it will ease the transition considerably 
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20161128 00:40:16< vultraz> hmm
20161128 00:40:24< vultraz> where do i need rgba_bytes
20161128 00:40:28< vultraz> and argb_bytes
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20161128 00:52:17< vultraz> from_argb_bytes it is
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20161128 01:11:02< vultraz> a thousand curses upon sdl/utils.hpp
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20161128 01:21:14< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12199 (master - 676768e : Charles Dang): The build was fixed.
20161128 01:21:14< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/179310492
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20161128 01:24:16< matthiaskrgr> \o/
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20161128 01:40:25< vultraz> why the hell can't you forward-declare a type for a class member!
20161128 01:40:27< vultraz> !!
20161128 01:41:09< vultraz> ridiculous, this is
20161128 01:50:45< vultraz> celticminstrel: I wonder if global.hpp could be included with a -I compiler option.
20161128 01:50:49< vultraz> in order to make it really global
20161128 01:57:17< irker560> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master eb3effad2141 / src/ (17 files in 9 dirs): Replace int_to_color and string_to_color with their appropriate color_t counterp https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/eb3effad2141ffdbf3b3703786d992fe5dcbcead
20161128 01:57:20< irker560> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master ce7a6ddbb1eb / src/ (17 files in 8 dirs): Cleaned up sdl/utils.hpp includes where possible https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ce7a6ddbb1ebb70b669b2a322329b0932224bbbe
20161128 01:57:22< vultraz> inb4 travis breaks
20161128 01:59:20< irker560> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 449adfdcbf7d / src/game_initialization/lobby_data.hpp: Small fixup for ce7a6ddbb1eb https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/449adfdcbf7de8f5c1635d312d03698c0e3a1058
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20161128 02:11:19< celticminstrel> vultraz: Technically it could be, but using -include or whatever strikes me as poor practice.
20161128 02:11:40< celticminstrel> You could also make it a pch, though making a pch from just global.hpp seems wasteful.
20161128 02:11:57< celticminstrel> [Nov 27@8:40:25pm] vultraz: why the hell can't you forward-declare a type for a class member!
20161128 02:11:59< celticminstrel> What?
20161128 02:12:35< celticminstrel> vultraz: How about making team::get_side_rbb return a color_t?
20161128 02:12:49< celticminstrel> And game_config::color_info too.
20161128 02:12:52< vultraz> was getting warnings about incomplete type even though the type was just used to declare a member 
20161128 02:12:57< vultraz> celticminstrel: getting there
20161128 02:13:12< celticminstrel> Well duh.
20161128 02:13:48< celticminstrel> Incomplete types can only be used for: pointers, references, function return type, function arguments.
20161128 02:13:55< celticminstrel> And strike the latter two if the function is implemented inline.
20161128 02:13:57< vultraz> I see
20161128 02:14:41< celticminstrel> color_range::mid should probably return color_t too...
20161128 02:14:52< celticminstrel> (I'm assuming the type is called color_range but could be wrong.)
20161128 02:15:00< vultraz> yes
20161128 02:15:06< vultraz> each returns uint32_ts
20161128 02:15:07< celticminstrel> game_config::red_to_green?
20161128 02:15:08< vultraz> 's
20161128 02:15:15< vultraz> uint32_t
20161128 02:15:31 * celticminstrel is listing stuff from your commits that should probably be changed to return color_t.
20161128 02:15:37< vultraz> I know
20161128 02:15:40< vultraz> I'm getting there!
20161128 02:15:43< vultraz> one step at a time
20161128 02:15:55< celticminstrel> Is that a request to stop?
20161128 02:16:01< celticminstrel> Or should I continue so you have a list here?
20161128 02:16:07< vultraz> please stop
20161128 02:16:10< vultraz> it's pointless
20161128 02:16:19< celticminstrel> Okay/
20161128 02:16:24< celticminstrel> (Could've said that earlier.)
20161128 02:17:10< celticminstrel> You removed the TODO about removing three functions, but only removed one of them.
20161128 02:17:19< celticminstrel> I suppose the third one is lower priority though...
20161128 02:18:38< vultraz> commit incoming
20161128 02:18:44< vultraz> soon as build is done
20161128 02:19:53< vultraz> blagh
20161128 02:20:03< vultraz> looks like my commit didn't reduce build times that much
20161128 02:25:47< vultraz> why... am i suddenly getting compile errors in color.hpp >_>
20161128 02:25:56< vultraz> C:\Users\Charles\Documents\wesnoth-git\src\sdl\color.hpp|216|error: no match for 'operator<<' (operand types are 'std::ostream {aka std::basic_ostream<char>}' and 'int')|
20161128 02:28:40< vultraz> oh, just needed #include <ostream>
20161128 02:28:51< celticminstrel> Or <iosfwc>
20161128 02:28:53< celticminstrel> fwd
20161128 02:29:10< celticminstrel> Oh, right, it's inline, so you need <ostream>
20161128 02:29:30< celticminstrel> If it was in the source file you could use <iosfwd> and then just include <ostream> in color.cpp.
20161128 02:30:01< celticminstrel> (Sounds like <iosfwd> was already included, actually. Since it knew what ostream was.)
20161128 02:31:27< irker560> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master db3127be03f4 / src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): Replace create_color with a color_t ctor call https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/db3127be03f43e36a079c80409bed18693be4523
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20161128 02:32:29< vultraz> now the hard part
20161128 02:32:37< celticminstrel> Could even make float_label take a color_t.
20161128 02:32:38< vultraz> replacing SDL_Color calls with color_t
20161128 02:32:42< celticminstrel> etc etc
20161128 02:32:53 * celticminstrel won't start listing them this time.
20161128 02:33:27< vultraz> if we're lucky, it should be a simple find-replace op
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20161128 02:34:24< vultraz> along with Uint32 and Uint8 -> uint32_t and uint8_t when necessary
20161128 02:34:27< vultraz> but I'll do that later
20161128 02:37:42< vultraz> having the type handling unified will mean it'll be much easier to deal with the formatting
20161128 02:38:35< vultraz> int editor_edit_label::load_color_component(Uint8 SDL_Color::* component)
20161128 02:38:38< vultraz> now this is interesting..
20161128 02:39:13< vultraz> celticminstrel: what exactly does this SDL_Color::* mean?
20161128 02:39:23< vultraz> 'only accept a member of SDL_Color?
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20161128 02:40:13< celticminstrel> "Uint8 SDL_Color::*" is a type.
20161128 02:40:21< celticminstrel> Read from right to left.
20161128 02:40:34< celticminstrel> "pointer to member of SDL_Color of type Uint8"
20161128 02:40:54< vultraz> I see
20161128 02:40:57< vultraz> interesting
20161128 02:41:04< vultraz> I would have simply done Uint8*
20161128 02:41:08< celticminstrel> So, if you change it to "uint8_t color_t::*" you can make it work for color_t instead.
20161128 02:41:28< celticminstrel> I guess a simple pointer to Uint8 would've worked too.
20161128 02:41:48< celticminstrel> Not entirely sure.
20161128 02:42:03< celticminstrel> The advantage of a pointer-to-member is that you can apply it to anything of the base type.
20161128 02:42:29< celticminstrel> In other words, if it points to SDL_Color::r, you could apply that pointer to any SDL_Color and get back the r value from that SDL_Color.
20161128 02:42:38< celticminstrel> Whether this was needed in that case, I don't remember.
20161128 02:43:01< vultraz> anything of the base type..
20161128 02:43:03< vultraz> hmmm
20161128 02:43:25< vultraz> I have little experience with pointer-to-member
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20161128 02:47:33< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12200 (master - ce7a6dd : Charles Dang): The build has errored.
20161128 02:47:34< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/179321273
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20161128 03:18:37< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12201 (master - 449adfd : Charles Dang): The build was broken.
20161128 03:18:38< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/179321524
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20161128 03:19:56< celticminstrel> Yaaay. :/
20161128 03:20:17< celticminstrel> (Maybe that'll be fixed by the next build though. Assuming there is one.)
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20161128 04:01:35< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12202 (master - db3127b : Charles Dang): The build was broken.
20161128 04:01:35< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/179325272
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20161128 04:23:54< vultraz> celticminstrel: still broken?
20161128 04:24:41< celticminstrel> vultraz: Seems like it.
20161128 04:24:53< celticminstrel> Though, only the Mac build failed. Hmm.
20161128 04:25:21< celticminstrel> Looks like src/g_i/lobby_data.hpp needs <string>
20161128 04:26:09< celticminstrel> I can get that if you want
20161128 04:27:21< irker560> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master 0a1afcb5eba9 / src/game_initialization/lobby_data.hpp: Fix a missing include https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0a1afcb5eba9ee7eba942570597f6fbf1a9f01e0
20161128 04:45:29< vultraz> thanks
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20161128 05:25:40< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12203 (master - 0a1afcb : Celtic Minstrel): The build was fixed.
20161128 05:25:40< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/179336234
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20161128 12:35:00< irker456> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master 2ca7cb8a898a / CMakeLists.txt: Fix naming of Optimized build variant in messages and comments of cmakelists https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/2ca7cb8a898a43ab16cd475bc201b451e2df80b5
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20161128 13:02:54< celticminstrel> Hmm. Should MP Select be put back to tooltip_large?
20161128 13:11:23< irker456> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master f8f091cc2ece / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/quenoth/ (Champion.cfg Flanker.cfg Ranger.cfg Warrior.cfg): UtBS: Balancing for the Quenoth Fighter line https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f8f091cc2ece331f01411301b3f58121717ae175
20161128 13:11:25< irker456> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 6cd39d67a961 / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/quenoth/ (Archer.cfg Marksman.cfg Outrider.cfg): UtBS: Balancing for the Quenoth Scout line https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/6cd39d67a96124fcbc8b021ef61838ae23bb3bdd
20161128 13:11:27< irker456> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 3b2cc049d804 / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/quenoth/Youth.cfg: UtBS: No race traits for Kaleh/Nym and hid their advancements from help https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3b2cc049d804c9b954a6e5433f50ec845ee28fc8
20161128 13:13:31< celticminstrel> Ooh, glaives.
20161128 13:13:33< zookeeper> urgh, what to do about zhul being too slow because she doesn't get to fly...
20161128 13:15:41< celticminstrel> I guess {ABILITY_DISENGAGE} is a dummy.
20161128 13:16:07< zookeeper> yes
20161128 13:16:08< celticminstrel> To put a description on the movement_used=0
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20161128 13:31:57< zookeeper> i'm kind of on the fence about whether to remove the moon branch entirely from the mystic line. it's starting to feel a bit forced.
20161128 13:32:28 * celticminstrel never likes the idea of removing something entirely.
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20161128 13:35:46< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12204 (master - 2ca7cb8 : loonycyborg): The build has errored.
20161128 13:35:46< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/179420387
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20161128 13:39:07< zookeeper> celticminstrel, so if someone snuck in, say, a portrait of a turd, you wouldn't want to remove it?
20161128 13:39:27< celticminstrel> Okay fine, that statement was too generic. 9_9
20161128 13:39:51< zookeeper> yeah might be :>
20161128 13:42:49< DeFender1031> what's the "moon branch"?
20161128 13:43:10< celticminstrel> IIRC, mystic can upgrade to druid(?), sun shaman, or moon shaman.
20161128 13:43:11< zookeeper> well... the counterpart of the "sun branch"
20161128 13:43:21 * celticminstrel doesn't recall exact names.
20161128 13:43:32< DeFender1031> okay, let's start with context.
20161128 13:43:46< celticminstrel> UtBS Quenoth
20161128 13:44:21< DeFender1031> ah, no wonder i'm unfamiliar. I've only played UTbS on 1.12
20161128 13:46:42< celticminstrel> I've never played it ever.
20161128 13:46:55< zookeeper> these dudettes: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/quenoth/placeholders.png
20161128 13:47:01< celticminstrel> I'd be sad to see the moon line go though.
20161128 13:47:48< celticminstrel> ...the L3 moon is topless. o.O
20161128 13:47:48< DeFender1031> whoa
20161128 13:48:29< celticminstrel> Are any of those actual base frames or are all of them just recoloured placeholders?
20161128 13:48:30< zookeeper> huh, so it seems. i didn't even remember
20161128 13:48:45< DeFender1031> umm... shouldn't that A: be fixed and B: never have happened?
20161128 13:48:58< DeFender1031> anyway, why would you want to drop the moon line?
20161128 13:49:17< zookeeper> celticminstrel, only the lvl1 fighter and lvl1 rider are jetrel's sprites, the rest are frankens by me so yes almost all are placeholders
20161128 13:49:25< celticminstrel> I'm not sure if either A or B is true there.
20161128 13:49:48< celticminstrel> Though given that it's a placeholder, I'm guessing it's not the intention.
20161128 13:50:43< DeFender1031> I thought we tried to keep the game PG
20161128 13:50:51< celticminstrel> IftU has topless demons.
20161128 13:50:58< DeFender1031> That's an add-on
20161128 13:51:01< celticminstrel> (Admittedly that's not mainline.)
20161128 13:51:37< DeFender1031> And they also don't have nipples IIRC... it's more like they're just a little curvy than actual nudity.
20161128 13:51:55< zookeeper> DeFender1031, because it feels a bit like a forced dichotomy, and also because i'd rather have A) both druid and sun lines get wings than B) all three lines get wings or C) only give sun and moon lines wings, making zhul ass-slow and thus rather useless
20161128 13:52:08< celticminstrel> It's a sprite, so it really doesn't have enough detail to say something like that.
20161128 13:52:23< celticminstrel> The female demon portrait works around it by being framed from behind.
20161128 13:52:34< DeFender1031> zookeeper, is there a reason you oppose all three getting wings?
20161128 13:52:49< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, ah, right, that's what it was.
20161128 13:53:37< DeFender1031> so then the question is, what scale of nudity is considered no-longer PG? :P
20161128 13:53:43< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i feel it'd be monotonous and boring
20161128 13:53:50< DeFender1031> how many pixels does a boob need to have before it's considered a boob?
20161128 13:54:34< DeFender1031> zookeeper, would it be insane then to make zhul a different branch, or allowing selection of what brach you take zhul?
20161128 13:54:46< celticminstrel> I'm a little curious about the sources of the sun and moon line frankens.
20161128 13:55:17< DeFender1031> Are frankens necessarily a bad thing?
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20161128 13:55:29< celticminstrel> They're not bad, but they're not great.
20161128 13:55:39< celticminstrel> But that's nothing to do with my comment.
20161128 13:55:59< DeFender1031> why? If they look like real sprites and nothing is out of place, why should it matter that they weren't originally drawn as one piece?
20161128 13:56:10< zookeeper> celticminstrel, they're IIRC all from the IftU series, although some of them presumably originated somewhere else. i don't recall exactly
20161128 13:56:24< celticminstrel> Well, that's a general statement, of course there are exceptions.
20161128 13:56:51< celticminstrel> zookeeper: If it's mostly IftU/AtS then I guess there's not likely to be much of interest in it.
20161128 13:57:12< celticminstrel> Since I've seen all te IftU/AtS sprites.
20161128 13:57:13< zookeeper> in what?
20161128 13:57:54< zookeeper> eh, nevermind
20161128 13:58:05< celticminstrel> I'm not even sure how to answer anyway.
20161128 13:58:12< zookeeper> DeFender1031, zhul's gotta be oldschool
20161128 13:58:48< celticminstrel> So, bumping stats in the druid line isn't an option? (I'm assuming Zhul's a druid?)
20161128 13:59:03< zookeeper> wouldn't make any sense for them to suddenly get more MP
20161128 13:59:16< celticminstrel> Why wouldn't it make sense?
20161128 13:59:31< DeFender1031> do druids not become shydes?
20161128 13:59:44< zookeeper> correct
20161128 13:59:45< celticminstrel> (I'm sure there's a good reason, I'm just wondering what it is.)
20161128 13:59:52< DeFender1031> why not?
20161128 14:00:14< DeFender1031> my suggestion would be give the druid line wings, and take the wings away from the moon line
20161128 14:01:47< zookeeper> they don't get wings for flavour reasons; they're kind of magically stunted because of the environment
20161128 14:02:51< DeFender1031> Then the problem isn't with the moon line
20161128 14:02:55< zookeeper> i could switch her intelligent trait to quick which would help, but then that's a bit weird for the oldest person around to be the fastest at running around
20161128 14:03:24< DeFender1031> the problem is "zhul needs to be druid line, druid line needs to not have wings, zhul needs to not be slow" and you can only have two of those things be true.
20161128 14:04:19< zookeeper> sure the druid line can have wings, but not if there's already two other better adapted-to-environment lines which get wings.
20161128 14:04:45< zookeeper> removing the wings from the moon line would work, but in that case i'd rather change the moon line to something that branches off from druid later than the sun line
20161128 14:05:57 * celticminstrel notes that units aren't actually limited to two traits, so you could give her intelligent and quick.
20161128 14:06:07< celticminstrel> Not saying it's a good idea, mind you.
20161128 14:06:15< zookeeper> yeah but i hate units having 3 traits
20161128 14:06:22< DeFender1031> there's one other option
20161128 14:06:55< DeFender1031> since zhul is older, she still has the capacity to become a shyde and get wings, while everyone else does not.
20161128 14:07:07< celticminstrel> I was actually thinking that too, hehh
20161128 14:07:10< celticminstrel> ^heh.
20161128 14:07:25 * celticminstrel somehow doubled the h instead of adding a period
20161128 14:08:18< DeFender1031> you said zhul needed to be oldschool, can't get much more oldschool than "she acts exactly like the old school"
20161128 14:09:00< celticminstrel> That does mean an extra unit type just for Zhul though. >_>
20161128 14:09:40< DeFender1031> meh.
20161128 14:09:50< zookeeper> well, how would her specialness be communicated to the player? does she get an "oldschool" trait? :p
20161128 14:09:51< DeFender1031> main characters get special types all the time
20161128 14:10:22< DeFender1031> zookeeper, would it need to be? could it not simply be communicated to the player when she advances into a shyde and no one else does?
20161128 14:10:54< celticminstrel> If it were me I'd probably include a line of dialogue when that happens.
20161128 14:11:06< zookeeper> DeFender1031, if you leveled up a hero that seems just like other units of her type, and then later did the same with said other units and nothing happened, wouldn't it feel like a likely bug?
20161128 14:11:09< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, I would probably suggest the same, yeah.
20161128 14:11:32< DeFender1031> zookeeper, not if there was dialogue saying so.
20161128 14:11:43< zookeeper> eh... maybe
20161128 14:11:57< celticminstrel> You could give her a custom unit type at L2 too maybe?
20161128 14:12:12< DeFender1031> Another option would be to give her a line of completely her own unit type with a slightly different set of names to distinguish it.
20161128 14:12:14< celticminstrel> One that's almost the same (using [base_unit]) but has a slightly different name.
20161128 14:12:33< celticminstrel> And ditto for L1 if she appears that way (I've been assuming she starts at L2).
20161128 14:12:42< DeFender1031> Even just prepending "Elder" to the types would be enough I think.
20161128 14:12:57< zookeeper> hmhmm
20161128 14:13:01< zookeeper> i shall have to ponder this
20161128 14:14:22< DeFender1031> And the description of the shyde could even include the information about how all druids used to be able to become shydes but the environment affects all the younger druids, etc. etc.
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20161128 15:44:20< vultraz> zookeeper: I agree the whole "moon and sun" distinction feels rather forced in a cliche way
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20161128 15:44:56< celticminstrel> It sorta makes sense for a desert race though.
20161128 15:45:05< vultraz> true
20161128 15:45:17< celticminstrel> And cliché ≠ bad
20161128 15:45:21< vultraz> also true
20161128 15:45:46< vultraz> There's something about this that feels like it was done because it sounded cool :P
20161128 15:46:01< celticminstrel> Clichés exist because they worked. :P
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20161128 15:46:17< celticminstrel> Well, it does sound cool.
20161128 15:47:07< vultraz> I think it needs good art to go along with it
20161128 15:47:26< vultraz> ie, if LB incorporates the motif into the design, it'd be fine.
20161128 15:48:10< vultraz> anyway, new sprites are needed, too. Despite some of those being high-quality IftU/AtS sprites, they don't really fit.
20161128 15:48:21< vultraz> the lvl 2 is the Eventide Dancer...
20161128 15:48:25< vultraz> not sure about the lvl3
20161128 15:49:01< vultraz> oh, recolored Spirit.
20161128 15:49:22< vultraz> Forest Spirit
20161128 15:51:07< EliDupree> Would be nice if I could at least set LIMITS on the CPU time/memory used by my Lua scripts, so that they don't freeze Wesnoth and fill my RAM+swap when I make a mistake.
20161128 15:52:42< DeFender1031> Something that bothers me about sun/moon is that it makes sense only on a planet with exactly one sun and one moon
20161128 15:53:12< DeFender1031> usually, i have this issue with sci-fi where people from multi-mooned planets still have that dichotomy
20161128 15:53:13< zookeeper> uh... how so?
20161128 15:53:23< vultraz> (does Irdya even have a moon...)
20161128 15:53:30< DeFender1031> however, in this case, i have the issue due to the whole "two suns" thing
20161128 15:54:20< vultraz> I don't think it's moon is ever mentioned
20161128 15:54:42< vultraz> however, since AtS has a scenario named "By the Moonlight" I guess it does
20161128 15:54:56< DeFender1031> vultraz, well, also implicitly in the TOD graphics
20161128 15:55:09< vultraz> wouldn
20161128 15:55:09< zookeeper> actually UtBS does even mention moon in some of the dialogue
20161128 15:55:14< vultraz> t put stock in those :P
20161128 15:55:25< zookeeper> also a few other references in other campaigns
20161128 15:55:57< DeFender1031> aside from that, we're the ones creating the darn thing, unless there's already a canon instance of some information contradicting something, we can decide on whatever the hell we want.
20161128 15:56:00< zookeeper> "within a moon", "bright moon", "moon-touched", "moonless night", etc
20161128 15:56:38< DeFender1031> so we can decide "it has three moons, but one's only visible in the winter" or whatever crap we want, and incorporate it somewhere if it's relevant.
20161128 15:57:09< DeFender1031> (not saying we should, just saying that there's no right or wrong here)
20161128 15:57:59< celticminstrel> I'd assume people want to at least keep astronomical credibility.
20161128 15:58:00< DeFender1031> zookeeper, as for "how so", it seems to me that if there were more than two significant light-giving celestial objects, that cultures wouldn't necessarily think of them as opposites.
20161128 15:58:09< celticminstrel> How would you explain a moon only visible in winter?
20161128 15:58:39< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: So you're not counting Venus as a significant light-giving celestial object?
20161128 15:59:07< celticminstrel> (Though I do see your point...)
20161128 15:59:43< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, I can come up with an answer for that, but before I do, what "astronomical credibility" is there to being able to create and raise a second sun that somehow is not in the same relative direction as the existing sun and results in a staggered double day night cycle.
20161128 16:00:00< celticminstrel> IIRC the second sun is actually a moon.
20161128 16:00:10< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, from earth, it just looks like a very large star, so no. I'm talking big round bright things.
20161128 16:00:28< celticminstrel> Though, I have no idea whether it satisfies astronomical credibility with respect to the actual way the ToD cycle works.
20161128 16:00:44< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well in this case they could still be seen as opposites because day and night are still a thing, and it's only night when neither sun is up but the moon is... at least if the cycles happen to be such that the moon is always up when neither sun is :p
20161128 16:00:53< DeFender1031> so if the second sun were actually a moon, would it not shift throughout the year as to when it aligns with the existing day?
20161128 16:01:09< celticminstrel> Depends on its orbital characteristics.
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20161128 16:01:50< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i'd challenge you on that on the grounds that here on earth 1: the moon is sometimes visible during the day and 2: the moon is not always visible at night.
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20161128 16:02:12< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well you can't challenge the idea that we can just say that's how the cycles work
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20161128 16:03:00< celticminstrel> The moon does fairly closely align with the opposite of the day.
20161128 16:03:10< celticminstrel> It's not perfect, of course, which is why it's sometimes visible during the day.
20161128 16:03:19< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i'm not sure that's true. there's certainly a theoretical orbit that would keep it at a specific angle to the planet, but as the planet went around the sun, it'd shift the day/night cycle of its second sun throughout the year.
20161128 16:03:42< DeFender1031> zookeeper, my point is that sun and moon are not a 1-to-1 for day and night.
20161128 16:03:44< zookeeper> as for the suns, sure their relative cycles could shift, but it can just be so slow shifting that you wouldn't see a big change during <1 year
20161128 16:03:55< DeFender1031> and that connection becomes even more tenuous if there's more than one
20161128 16:04:23< DeFender1031> zookeeper, that's the most logical explanation.
20161128 16:04:44< DeFender1031> hmm... actually... there probably IS a theoretical orbit that would keep it at the same angle relative to the sun...
20161128 16:05:25< DeFender1031> if the period of the sunlike moon's orbit were EXACTLY one year, I think it'd always be at the same angle relative to the sun
20161128 16:05:38< zookeeper> it's unknown how long it took for the second sun's orbit to shift enough to cause the long dark
20161128 16:05:43< zookeeper> maybe it's a 1000 years
20161128 16:05:47< DeFender1031> and I would imagine that anyone trying to raise a second sun would want it to do exactly that.
20161128 16:05:58< DeFender1031> so it actually does seem plausible
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20161128 16:06:26< celticminstrel> "same angle relative to the sun" could mean "always opposite to it", right?
20161128 16:06:36< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i always imagined that the span between the fall of wesnoth and the distant future of UTbS was closer to 1000000
20161128 16:06:49< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, of course
20161128 16:07:30< zookeeper> DeFender1031, nothing man-made would survive 1000000 years
20161128 16:07:38< DeFender1031> I would imagine they raised a second "sun" opposite the first, and over time it shifted one way making it closer to the other and throwing off all the ecology and everything.
20161128 16:07:47< zookeeper> and certainly no knowledge either
20161128 16:08:12< celticminstrel> Mind you, banishing the night isn't really good for the ecology in the first place...
20161128 16:08:13< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I doubt we have sufficient data to form a conclusion one way or the other.
20161128 16:08:42< DeFender1031> zookeeper, with the advent of modern technology, I could imagine the internet and all of its knowledge lasting 1000000 years
20161128 16:09:01< celticminstrel> I haven't played it, but from the discussion of Zhul, I'd also guess it's closer to thousands than millions.
20161128 16:09:09< celticminstrel> Maybe more like ten thousand though.
20161128 16:09:20< zookeeper> DeFender1031, sure, but we're talking about books, scrolls, castles and a bunch of civilizations
20161128 16:09:23< DeFender1031> and since this conversation is being automatically logged: Hi future historians! Hope you enjoy our insane ramblings!
20161128 16:09:30< celticminstrel> XD
20161128 16:10:06< DeFender1031> zookeeper, they would have needed to at least have advanced to a rocket-science level of either magic or technology in order to raise a sattelite.
20161128 16:11:07< zookeeper> well obviously it's magic and not rocketry
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20161128 16:11:48< DeFender1031> (This is not to mention the irresponsibility of one nation-state irrevokably changing the entire ecological and geological reality of their entire planet without consent from the other nation-states...)
20161128 16:12:43< celticminstrel> Yeah...
20161128 16:12:43< DeFender1031> zookeeper, doesn't have to be. I mean, it'd be a retcon to say it was technological, albeit not a big one, as any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
20161128 16:13:27< celticminstrel> I would've expected the other nation-states to get wind of it, and some try to prevent it.
20161128 16:13:50< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, I actually had an idea for a story that's exactly like that
20161128 16:13:57< DeFender1031> well, the second one.
20161128 16:13:59< celticminstrel> Even if there's not a lot of connectivity in Irdya compared to the real world, I'd think news would at least travel a little.
20161128 16:14:02< vultraz> stupid other nation-states :P
20161128 16:14:08< celticminstrel> Shush vultraz.
20161128 16:14:19< celticminstrel> Wesnoth is clearly the stupid one here. :P
20161128 16:14:51< DeFender1031> basically, (spoiler alert skipping right to the ending) my idea is that the other nation-states try to stop the launch of the third sun, and in doing so, bring it down on top of everyone and cause that which they were trying to avoid.
20161128 16:15:18< celticminstrel> Was it already established that the third sun crashed?
20161128 16:15:22< vultraz> yes
20161128 16:15:29< DeFender1031> UTbS says so explicitly, yes
20161128 16:15:30< celticminstrel> That seems a good plot hook then.
20161128 16:15:41< DeFender1031> i know, that's why I thought of it.
20161128 16:15:54< celticminstrel> Though I'm not sure how well it'd work for a campaign since it's technically a bad ending.
20161128 16:15:55< DeFender1031> because it seemed to me that the others in the world would have been all "hell no"
20161128 16:16:07< celticminstrel> Especially after Wesnoth already did it once.
20161128 16:16:16< DeFender1031> what do you mean?
20161128 16:16:30< celticminstrel> Well, we're talking about the third sun, not the second, right?
20161128 16:16:58< celticminstrel> I'd actually expect the elves to be against the extra suns too...
20161128 16:17:42< DeFender1031> yeah
20161128 16:17:44< DeFender1031> and?
20161128 16:18:29< celticminstrel> I mean, after Wesnoth launches one sun, it seems like other nation-states would be even more likely to try to prevent another one if they got wind of it.
20161128 16:18:40< DeFender1031> that's my point
20161128 16:18:41< celticminstrel> Even more likely than they were to try to prevent the first one.
20161128 16:18:46< DeFender1031> exactly
20161128 16:19:01< celticminstrel> With the first one they might've agreed, or thought there was no way it would ever work, or something.
20161128 16:19:30< DeFender1031> this is why I think my idea is a pretty good piece of plot and fits really well into the existing canon.
20161128 16:20:27< celticminstrel> Absolutely.
20161128 16:20:35< vultraz> one should consider IftU and AtS canon too
20161128 16:20:41< vultraz> even though they're not "technically"
20161128 16:20:43< celticminstrel> vultraz: Why?
20161128 16:20:56< DeFender1031> (and I say this as someone who hates the whole "and wesnoth was destroyed by their own arrogance anyway" thing)
20161128 16:21:13< vultraz> because they're so good
20161128 16:21:20< DeFender1031> vultraz, i'm still working my way through them, but I have to agree with celticminstrel, why?
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20161128 16:21:41< DeFender1031> if they're good enough to be considered canon, they should be mainline. if they're not mainline, then they shouldn't necessarily be considered canona
20161128 16:21:46< celticminstrel> Good doesn't necessarily mean they fit well with the established canon.
20161128 16:22:05 * celticminstrel notes that shadowm believes they will never be mainlined.
20161128 16:22:29< DeFender1031> the one reason i would consider them canon is because the community seems to have accepted them as kind of an auxiliary canon, and have made sequels to them and such even though they're not actually mainline
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20161128 16:23:03< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i know. shadowm would probably be the loudest voice against mainlining them
20161128 16:23:03< celticminstrel> "Because they're good" just isn't much of an argument for being canon.
20161128 16:23:21< celticminstrel> I'm not quite sure whether he's actually against mainlining them or not...
20161128 16:23:39< DeFender1031> that said though, vultraz, does anything i said contradict the "canon" established in IFtU or AtS?
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20161128 16:24:59 * celticminstrel does like a lot of the IftU/AtS units though - fairies, demons, elvish hunter, ... I forget, were Aragwaith in there or not?
20161128 16:25:21< vultraz> DeFender1031, celticminstrel: they're firmly built upon UtBS canon and really develop the universe in ways mainline could never hope to do
20161128 16:25:35< celticminstrel> "mainline could never hope to do"
20161128 16:25:48< vultraz> shadowm didn't want them canon because he felt he'd lose too much creative control
20161128 16:25:54< celticminstrel> That sounds like something you should never say.
20161128 16:26:15< vultraz> has never done*
20161128 16:26:21< celticminstrel> So perhaps shadowm wouldn't mind them being canon if they could be CC instead of GPL.
20161128 16:26:28< DeFender1031> lose creative control how?
20161128 16:26:34< celticminstrel> GPL
20161128 16:26:46< DeFender1031> add-ons are all GPL too, no?
20161128 16:26:46< vultraz> also
20161128 16:26:48< vultraz> E S R
20161128 16:26:53< celticminstrel> (Technically yes they are all GPL)
20161128 16:27:13< celticminstrel> What about E S R?
20161128 16:27:30< vultraz> can't remember exactly
20161128 16:27:39< celticminstrel> ...
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20161128 20:42:30< irker986> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master a67f91987ee0 / src/game_initialization/flg_manager.cpp: don't show random leader option if the faction has only one possible leader https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a67f91987ee0c1b10dd77392ba8ab8a304bd6621
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20161128 20:44:47< celticminstrel> What is it with people suddenly opening PRs to update the French translation?
20161128 20:45:24< celticminstrel> Ivanovic: If you have time, could you please deal with PRs 883, 878, and 877? Possibly closing them with an official message.
20161128 20:45:29< celticminstrel> Or merging them if you think you want to.
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20161128 21:12:32< Ivanovic> celticminstrel: won't do
20161128 21:12:47< Ivanovic> i don't handle pull requests at all, they create work for me and i am basically inactive
20161128 21:13:50< celticminstrel> Ivanovic: I mentioned them because they pertain to translations and you are (as far as I know) the translation maintainer.
20161128 21:14:05< celticminstrel> Ivanovic: Should I tell them to contact you through other channels?
20161128 21:14:21< Ivanovic> is there no french maintrainer anymore?
20161128 21:14:32< celticminstrel> I don't know.
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20161128 21:26:46< Ravana_> just from lobby > "I have completely forgot how to pm, the efficient way", "so I don't have to click a name 30x times due to those pms being short."
20161128 21:26:55< Ravana_> is this handled in 1.13?
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20161128 21:29:18< Ravana_> (meaning that UI only accepts really short messages)
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20161128 21:33:15< EliDupree> I'm just about ready to release my new map, Kill Literally 1000 Zombies :-)
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20161128 21:54:33< EliDupree> Released :)
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 29 00:00:36 2016