--- Log opened Tue Nov 29 00:00:36 2016
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20161129 02:24:21< tad_carlucci> Running Windows CI at AppVeyor I'm testing both VS2013 and VS2015 builds, both Release and Debug. It takes about 50 minutes per build, or about 4 hours in total. There does not seem to be much visible difference between 2013 and 2015. Release yeilds 2 warnings, 0 error; Debug shows 26 warnings, 0 errors.
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20161129 02:34:11< Aginor> tad_carlucci: how hard was it to get set up with all the dependencies?
20161129 02:35:48< tad_carlucci> Not hard. It follows the wiki suggestion and uses the 'external' packs. If you're interested look at my fork, root, .appveyor.vs201*.yml .. not much there.
20161129 02:38:46< Aginor> I'll take a look later if I have the time
20161129 02:39:17< tad_carlucci> Basically it's a git checkout, a wget download, 7z upzip, and msbuild
20161129 02:39:48< tad_carlucci> vs2015 has an added step to upgrade from VC12 to VC14
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20161129 04:41:19 * celticminstrel just noticed that Dugi's new dwarvish names replace P with B...
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20161129 04:54:10< pydsigner> Wait why
20161129 04:54:23< pydsigner> (semirhetorical)
20161129 04:59:40< celticminstrel> No idea.
20161129 04:59:45< celticminstrel> Was considering switching it back.
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20161129 05:37:39< irker185> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master 4ee94f6128a1 / src/server/simple_wml.cpp: Don't pass pointer into temporary string! https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4ee94f6128a16f673590e1bc6c8dcf15f744976a
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20161129 05:43:53< vultraz> thanks
20161129 05:44:08< celticminstrel> Not entirely sure that's safe, but it's safer than before at least.
20161129 05:45:06< vultraz> I didn't realized before that such functions were just wrappers around the C functions
20161129 05:45:15< vultraz> I wonder why they didn't properly implement them
20161129 05:45:20< celticminstrel> What are you talking about?
20161129 05:45:41< vultraz> oh wait, I guess to_string is c++
20161129 05:45:48< vultraz> I meant strtol and stoi and stuff
20161129 05:46:10< celticminstrel> stoi is C++ too.
20161129 05:46:17< celticminstrel> strtol is a C function.
20161129 05:46:30< celticminstrel> The C++ standard library includes the C standard library.
20161129 05:46:56< celticminstrel> It's not a question of properly implementing them or whatever.
20161129 05:47:21< vultraz> I meant do a c++ impl
20161129 05:47:30< vultraz> like lexical_cast
20161129 05:47:31< celticminstrel> Well, that's kinda what stoi is.
20161129 05:47:54< celticminstrel> Also, lexical_cast is a wrapper around the stream APIs.
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20161129 05:48:10< celticminstrel> Which is why it works on anything, not just numbers.
20161129 05:50:52< vultraz> i am aware
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20161129 08:04:05< Soliton> the last commit doesn't help anything. it's fine either way.
20161129 08:04:48< Soliton> the temporary will live as long as the function executes.
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20161129 12:58:56< gfgtdf> celim: 4ee94f6128a1 wasn't needed such temparly are guaranteed to live as longs as the expression they are in.
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20161129 17:46:53< JyrkiVesterinen> I merged PR884: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/884 Irker was being quiet again.
20161129 17:47:28< JyrkiVesterinen> May I set up Wesnoth in AppVeyor, or should someone else (e.g. wedge009 or celticminstrel) do it?
20161129 17:47:35< celticminstrel> Go for it.
20161129 17:49:58 * celticminstrel wonders why line 10 has "ps:" which seems to be a YML key.
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20161129 18:20:12< vultraz> So it seems that my cleanup of sdl/utils.hpp includes has reduced the build time when modifying said header from 20-some to 14-some minutes :D
20161129 18:22:19< zookeeper> most impressive
20161129 18:23:38< celticminstrel> But how often do you modify that header? :P
20161129 18:23:51< vultraz> It has a lot in it
20161129 18:24:30< celticminstrel> Are you going to do what I suggested with respect to moving the formula alpha out of sdl/utils.cpp?
20161129 18:24:50< vultraz> ?
20161129 18:26:28< celticminstrel> ...
20161129 18:26:58< vultraz> formula alpha?
20161129 18:27:19< celticminstrel> ~ADJUST_ALPHA(formula) uses it, and it's why WFL is included in utils.cpp.
20161129 18:27:30< vultraz> oh
20161129 18:27:36< vultraz> when did you suggest this?
20161129 18:27:45< celticminstrel> A few days ago, I think?
20161129 18:28:01< celticminstrel> I suggested it could just be merged into the image modification function since that's the only place that uses it.
20161129 18:28:49< celticminstrel> I suppose you could also build a bitmap from the formula and then separately apply that to the alpha channel, but I'm not sure why you'd want to do that.
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20161129 18:41:37< irker847> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:appveyor-irc-notification 5ff4945b2649 / .appveyor.vs2013.yml utils/appveyor/irc-notify.py: Experimental: send an IRC notification when an AppVeyor build finishes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5ff4945b2649fa232992fb2586be931ac9c298ae
20161129 18:42:55 * JyrkiVesterinen configured the initial version of the script to send the notification to a channel he created, not here. He isn't going to test in production. :) 
20161129 18:45:03< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master d6f249e3acc0 / src/ (gui/core/event/handler.cpp sdl/utils.hpp): Removed use of custom SDL mouse event macros https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d6f249e3acc0e74172844f4966852b59bdcb6f1e
20161129 18:45:06< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 4d4e3b0d7459 / src/gui/core/event/handler.cpp: GUI2/handler: some C++11 updates https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4d4e3b0d745911c12eae7b4b021d751699b112c1
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20161129 18:59:47< celticminstrel> So reverse() operators on a container? I thought it needed an iterator pair.
20161129 18:59:51< celticminstrel> ^operates
20161129 19:00:22< vultraz> apparently not
20161129 19:00:35< celticminstrel> Could've probably "const auto&", but I guess it doesn't matter.
20161129 19:01:18< vultraz> does that mean utils/iterable_pair.hpp was added in error?
20161129 19:01:34< JyrkiVesterinen> Hmm, AppVeyor builds don't seem to start automatically for some reason. I started the VS2013 build manually.
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20161129 19:02:22< celticminstrel> vultraz: What?
20161129 19:02:42< vultraz> oh, wait, that's plain range-for, no reverse
20161129 19:02:44< vultraz> hm
20161129 19:02:48< celticminstrel> JyrkiVesterinen: Maybe they only start automatically for master?
20161129 19:03:12< celticminstrel> vultraz: IIRC, iterable_pair was because many places in Wesnoth use a std::pair of begin/end iterators to represent ranges.
20161129 19:03:13< JyrkiVesterinen> AppVeyor didn't react to vultraz's two commits above either.
20161129 19:03:17< celticminstrel> Ah.
20161129 19:03:41< vultraz> celticminstrel: but why..
20161129 19:03:47< celticminstrel> Why what?
20161129 19:04:02< JyrkiVesterinen> At least it did pick up the commits when I started the build.
20161129 19:04:05< JyrkiVesterinen> https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/job/16k4n7p1lh79200l
20161129 19:04:37< vultraz> celticminstrel: well, i guess it's as good a way as any to store a range
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20161129 19:04:53< celticminstrel> Blah, another incompetent website that uses cookies when it doesn't need them.
20161129 19:05:54< vultraz> what's wrong with cookies?
20161129 19:06:05< JyrkiVesterinen> I wonder why it's cloning the repository. I ticked the "fetch repository as zip archive" box.
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20161129 19:08:29< celticminstrel> vultraz: Nothing's fundamentally wrong with them, but websites abuse them for all sorts of things, and often forget that there's no guarantee they'll be enabled.
20161129 19:09:06< celticminstrel> And in some cases, that means the website simply doesn't function at all if they're disabled.
20161129 19:40:56< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master d0dc7114035d / src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): GUI2: deploy color_t https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d0dc7114035dbd27687912122754ea85806fd470
20161129 19:40:59< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master a7daa12b3a48 / src/gui/widgets/ (widget.cpp widget.hpp): colour -> color https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a7daa12b3a481bec38872ea120ff914c4ed5ecc8
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20161129 20:43:08< vultraz> ...ehh?
20161129 20:43:11< vultraz> 		boost::sregex_iterator m(formula_str.begin(), formula_str.end(), fai_identifier);
20161129 20:43:12< vultraz> 		for (const boost::sregex_iterator::value_type& p : std::make_pair(m, boost::sregex_iterator())) {
20161129 20:43:21< vultraz> celticminstrel: what is going on here
20161129 20:43:21< celticminstrel> ?
20161129 20:43:34< celticminstrel> Looks like iterating over matches of a regex?
20161129 20:43:41< celticminstrel> Where is this?
20161129 20:43:42< vultraz> why does it need a pair there
20161129 20:43:48< DeFender1031> Looks like code... :P </nothelping>
20161129 20:43:57< vultraz> unit/types.cpp:997
20161129 20:44:01< celticminstrel> Well, it needs to know when to stop iterating.
20161129 20:44:55< vultraz> but it's a begin-to-end loop...as defined in m
20161129 20:44:59< vultraz> in*
20161129 20:45:22< celticminstrel> It's not iterating over the range provided to the sregex_iterator constructor.
20161129 20:45:37< celticminstrel> It's iterating over the matches of the fai_identifier regex in that range.
20161129 20:46:31< vultraz> that is really unintuitive 
20161129 20:46:35< celticminstrel> I guess it would have false alarms if the formula contained a string... but that shouldn't be a problem since it shouldn't contain a string.
20161129 20:46:44< celticminstrel> How is that unintuitive?
20161129 20:46:59< celticminstrel> That's what sregex_iterator is all about.
20161129 20:47:13< celticminstrel> This is basically a "find all" operation.
20161129 20:47:57< vultraz> ok, that makes sense
20161129 20:48:55< vultraz> I mean it doesn't make sense if m has all the matches for fai_identifier in the begin/end range, why does the loop need a pair with a default-constructed sregex_iterator object
20161129 20:49:00< vultraz> what does that point to
20161129 20:49:04< vultraz> why not iterate over m :/
20161129 20:49:40< celticminstrel> It's not that uncommon for a default-constructed iterator to represent the end of any range of an iterator of that type.
20161129 20:49:49< celticminstrel> Boost.Filesystem's directory iterators do that too IIRC.
20161129 20:49:53< vultraz> oh?
20161129 20:50:07< celticminstrel> And iterating over m doesn't make sense - m is an iterator itself.
20161129 20:50:59< vultraz> oh
20161129 20:51:49< vultraz> anyway, you said this pair-for-ranges was used in many places, but it's in only 5 :/ One of which could be removed.
20161129 20:52:42< celticminstrel> It was used in many more places before gfgtdf and I changed the config class to return Boost iterator ranges.
20161129 20:53:00< celticminstrel> Instead of plain iterator pairs.
20161129 20:53:26< vultraz> iterator ranges, you say?
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20161129 20:57:17< EliDupree> … I'm tempted to cheatingly make my add-on the most-downloaded on the add-on server, but I shall resist
20161129 20:58:34< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master ab66dcd06d66 / src/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Cleaned up usage of iterator range pairs where possible https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ab66dcd06d6640ecaca08df6ce0b63d0d1160e20
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20161129 22:20:01< DeFender1031> EliDupree, how would you accomplish that?
20161129 22:20:13< DeFender1031> Some script to make it download over and over?
20161129 22:21:00< vultraz> dammit. wrong commit message >_> 
20161129 22:21:06< vultraz> assignment operator
20161129 22:21:08< celticminstrel> vultraz: Hmm?
20161129 22:21:08< vultraz> not move ctor
20161129 22:21:10< vultraz> dammit
20161129 22:21:14< celticminstrel> You can fix it.
20161129 22:21:18< celticminstrel> git commit --amend
20161129 22:21:23< vultraz> already pushed
20161129 22:21:27< vultraz> irker isn't reporting
20161129 22:21:31< celticminstrel> Oh.
20161129 22:21:32< EliDupree> Yeah, and also make the add-on temporarily be a very small size so that I can download it faster. Assuming it even requires complete downloads, not just starting to download and abandoning it
20161129 22:21:36< celticminstrel> Oh well.
20161129 22:21:48< EliDupree> (DeFender1031)
20161129 22:22:22< celticminstrel> So you meant copy constructors and assignment operators.
20161129 22:22:33< DeFender1031> EliDupree, exploitable systems deserve to be exploited :P (not really. don't do it. not nice.)
20161129 22:22:44< EliDupree> heh
20161129 22:22:47< vultraz> celticminstrel: yes
20161129 22:23:17< celticminstrel> vision.hpp was apparently totally rewritten.
20161129 22:24:22< celticminstrel> Maybe it was using CRLF or something?
20161129 22:25:28< vultraz> CRLF?
20161129 22:25:38< celticminstrel> Windows line breaks.
20161129 22:25:42< vultraz> that's what my editor uses
20161129 22:25:45< celticminstrel> Instead of UNIX ones.
20161129 22:26:08< vultraz> but it usually doesn't overwrite files
20161129 22:26:17< vultraz> so.. dunno
20161129 22:26:32< celticminstrel> Well, if it was committed to the repository with CRLF...
20161129 22:26:56< celticminstrel> Then it would've shown up as changed even if you never changed it.
20161129 22:27:10< celticminstrel> (Assoming you're using the git feature that autoconverts.)
20161129 22:27:43< vultraz> i am
20161129 22:27:45< vultraz> I think
20161129 22:27:52< celticminstrel> You probably are.
20161129 22:28:08< celticminstrel> I really don't know what else could've made git thing the file was completely rewritten...
20161129 22:28:46< celticminstrel> Anyway, it doesn't matter.
20161129 22:29:41< vultraz> ah crap
20161129 22:29:44< vultraz> i missed a case :(
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20161129 22:33:32< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 5d181a291207 / src/config_cache.hpp: Removed case of boost::noncopyable I missed in f11fa0652a https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5d181a2912070a3692f49066ce41bbf0f0e560b3
20161129 22:33:42< vultraz> oh now it reports
20161129 22:41:42< zookeeper> gah. you can make all sorts of really fancy-looking terrain things, but then it turns out they look awful in-game next to everything else.
20161129 22:42:04< DeFender1031> zookeeper, truth.
20161129 22:44:36< zookeeper> in isolation this looked really pretty, but in-game it's too blurry and too big: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/lavatest4.png
20161129 22:45:12< DeFender1031> zookeeper, post an in-game screencap also to compare?
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20161129 22:47:26< zookeeper> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/lavatest4_ingame.png (doesn't tile entirely right)
20161129 22:48:17< vultraz> zookeeper: the main problem is it doesn't look like lava
20161129 22:48:22< DeFender1031> that seems like a configuration issue
20161129 22:48:27< vultraz> it looks like rocks split with lava underneath them
20161129 22:48:29< zookeeper> yeah, it's more like... coals or something
20161129 22:48:36< vultraz> yeah 
20161129 22:51:06< vultraz> then again for the lava chasm that might not be that bad
20161129 22:51:19< vultraz> for the lava terrain you could have more lava-y lava
20161129 22:52:01< zookeeper> i suspect the animation i planned would make it look less like rocks/coals, but meh
20161129 22:52:18< gfgtdf> :( such commits are really annyoing when you want to use git blame to figure out why thing were done in a specific way.
20161129 23:01:08< celticminstrel> Hmm?
20161129 23:02:03< celticminstrel> What do you mean, gfgtdf?
20161129 23:02:28< gfgtdf> the vision.hpp
20161129 23:02:48< celticminstrel> Oh, yeah.
20161129 23:02:54< celticminstrel> Makes sense.
20161129 23:04:18< vultraz> dammit
20161129 23:04:23< vultraz> to_hex_string is broken :(
20161129 23:04:55< celticminstrel> Yaaay!
20161129 23:04:57< celticminstrel> Broken how!
20161129 23:04:59< celticminstrel> ^?
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20161129 23:05:22< vultraz> seems to sometimes return 5 characters
20161129 23:09:12< vultraz> ahh
20161129 23:09:14< vultraz> got it
20161129 23:11:51< vultraz> dammit, why did we make these functions throw exceptions :|
20161129 23:17:05< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0d180df6c626 / src/sdl/ (color.cpp color.hpp): color_t: re-add the '#' prefix to to_hex_string https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0d180df6c6266203fa21f5aa9336c7abd0d822b8
20161129 23:17:08< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master fd8e71295267 / src/sdl/color.cpp: color_t: fixup to_hex_string https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/fd8e712952673d6f8e1bc55d1f0f70355a690978
20161129 23:17:11< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master bb5d3078d918 / src/ (font/text_formatting.cpp font/text_formatting.hpp team.cpp): Phased out color2hexa and unit32_to_pango_color in favor of their color_t counte https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/bb5d3078d918ce2a90cdbedea745c6bc34a14c66
20161129 23:17:37< celticminstrel> So we can catch them and give nice error messages?
20161129 23:18:05< celticminstrel> 0d180d makes from/to asymmetric.
20161129 23:18:14< vultraz> yes
20161129 23:18:21< celticminstrel> For that reason I prefer not including the #
20161129 23:18:48< vultraz> it's much more convenient, though
20161129 23:18:56< celticminstrel> Not really?
20161129 23:18:59< vultraz> and we can always strip # in from_hex_string
20161129 23:19:17< celticminstrel> Well, let's wait and see where they're used before making that decision.
20161129 23:19:24< zookeeper> hmh. something i just thought of: if add-on A defines and uses macro FOO perfectly normally, but add-on B also happens to define macro FOO for itself, doesn't that result in one of those "macro redefinition without #undef" warnings? seems like a pretty annoying case, since you can't know all the macros all other add-ons have defined so you'd sort of have to #undef every one of your macros 
20161129 23:19:24< zookeeper> to make sure your add-on doesn't output any warnings.
20161129 23:19:26< celticminstrel> It might be that from/to are never used in the same places.
20161129 23:19:31< zookeeper> or is that prevented from happening, somehow?
20161129 23:19:32< vultraz> take the string by copy and do c = c.substr(c[1], c.end());
20161129 23:20:16< gfgtdf> i actually each addon has their own macor space? not sure tohugh
20161129 23:21:02< vultraz> hm
20161129 23:21:09< vultraz> looks like color_range might use argb bytes
20161129 23:21:38< celticminstrel> That's odd, as the specification of setw says nothing about it only applying only to one output operation.
20161129 23:21:47< celticminstrel> Ditto for ios_base::width
20161129 23:21:57< vultraz> shrug
20161129 23:21:58< vultraz> it works
20161129 23:22:14< celticminstrel> Well obviously redundantly setting it would work too though.
20161129 23:22:26< vultraz> Notes
20161129 23:22:28< vultraz> The width property of the stream will be reset to zero (meaning "unspecified") if any of the following functions are called:
20161129 23:22:41< vultraz> operator<<(basic_ostream&, char) and operator<<(basic_ostream&, char*)
20161129 23:22:42< vultraz> operator<<(basic_ostream&, basic_string&)
20161129 23:23:40< vultraz> ....apparently std::put_money is a thing
20161129 23:23:54< celticminstrel> Yup.
20161129 23:24:08< celticminstrel> Because currency is one of the things that are localized.
20161129 23:24:28< celticminstrel> vultraz: Why would color_range use argb bytes?
20161129 23:24:44 * celticminstrel thinking reading from WML here for some reason, not sure if that's what you're referring to.
20161129 23:25:16< vultraz> uint32_t max = 0x00FFFFFF , uint32_t min = 0x00000000 , uint32_t rep = 0x00808080
20161129 23:25:55< celticminstrel> Well sure, that's clearly ARGB.
20161129 23:26:10< celticminstrel> (Okay, technically it could also be ABGR, but I doubt Wesnoth uses that anywhere.)
20161129 23:26:17< celticminstrel> (Not actually sure if it's a thing.
20161129 23:26:20< celticminstrel> )
20161129 23:28:32< vultraz> therefor i think i need to correct some stuff in bb5d3078d918 
20161129 23:29:33< vultraz> or refactor color_range
20161129 23:32:15< irker847> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 85eca5a97090 / src/ (font/text_formatting.cpp team.cpp): Fixup bb5d3078d918 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/85eca5a9709096e6758e9df1020fd685bd5ffaca
20161129 23:32:23< vultraz> the static factory suggestion was a very good one
20161129 23:33:42< DeFender1031> vultraz, what about factories?
20161129 23:34:18< vultraz> celticminstrel suggested static functions to generate color_t objects in order to have self-documenting code so we know if a color is ARGB or RGBA
20161129 23:34:20< vultraz> instead of ctors
20161129 23:34:31< vultraz> which would make it hard to distinguish anyway
20161129 23:34:39< DeFender1031> vultraz, if youre doing anything with factories, I suggest reading these articles:
20161129 23:34:41< DeFender1031> http://insanecoding.blogspot.co.il/2010/07/time-to-shutdown-factory-for-code.html
20161129 23:34:44< DeFender1031> http://insanecoding.blogspot.co.il/2010/07/simplifying-bootstrapping-for-virtual.html
20161129 23:37:10< celticminstrel> I don't think this is really the same situation...
20161129 23:37:22 * vultraz 's eyes gloss over
20161129 23:37:35< vultraz> too much info!
20161129 23:37:40< celticminstrel> What I recommended is something that I beleve is sometimes referred to as the "Named Constructor Idiom".
20161129 23:37:46< DeFender1031> ah
20161129 23:37:51< DeFender1031> yeah, not quite the same thing
20161129 23:38:16< celticminstrel> It is a static factory function in the sense that it's a static function that returns an instance of the class, after all.
20161129 23:38:23< DeFender1031> still, the techniques in these articles are awesome and everyone should be using them any time they need dynamic construction
20161129 23:38:44< celticminstrel> It looks dense, but I'll save it for later reading.
20161129 23:38:55< DeFender1031> IINM, that's missing one of the criteria to fit the definition of "factory"
20161129 23:41:04< DeFender1031> also, articles like this don't bother me... I regularly read whole books on how to develop better.
20161129 23:41:16< vultraz> the horror!
20161129 23:41:25< DeFender1031> I just got a new one, in fact, and will likely be getting a couple more in the neaar future.
20161129 23:41:47< celticminstrel> So what's the status on you compiling Wesnoth, anyway?
20161129 23:42:05< DeFender1031> vultraz, my boss refers to it as "reading about things we already know to teach us how to do the things we already do"
20161129 23:43:13< vultraz> Donald Trump needs a book like that. Except he doesn't already know how to do the thing he already does :P
20161129 23:43:39< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, waiting on my new drives to arrive. If I get tired of waiting, I might put up with a VM in the meantime. I also didn't get a chance to work on stuff last thursday because I was out all day at an appointment.
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20161129 23:45:18< DeFender1031> vultraz, the truth is, reading books is, in my opinion, crucial for keeping up-to-date with the latest techniques and best-practices, keeping your mind sharp, and expanding your frame of reference. Often the stuff in books is stuff you already know but applied in new ways or new contexts where you never thought to apply them before.
20161129 23:46:05< vultraz> you sound like my mother :P
20161129 23:46:34< vultraz> don't mean that in a bad way
20161129 23:46:59< DeFender1031> Unlike many developers my age, I actually still learn about new technologies and don't just reject new stuff because it's not how I was taught. My boss always says that if we reject the use of a new framework or system, we'll do so based on knowing how it works, not based on not knowing.
20161129 23:47:23< DeFender1031> heh
20161129 23:47:23< vultraz> smart
20161129 23:47:33< vultraz> especially today
20161129 23:47:41< vultraz> if you reject new tech you end up left behind within a decade
20161129 23:47:43< vultraz> or less
20161129 23:48:03< vultraz> half a decade, even
20161129 23:48:23-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20161129 23:48:52< DeFender1031> well there are also far more "hip new" technologies coming out today than back when I learned, which means far more that are worth rejecting, but we do so on their merits, not on the basis of "it's just what the young whippersnappers are using". And there are many "hip new" things that we DO conclude are worth using.
20161129 23:49:12< DeFender1031> that's true as well
20161129 23:49:43< DeFender1031> though the opposite of what I said is also true, just because "it's what everyone is using" doesn't actually mean it's good.
20161129 23:50:11< vultraz> conditionally irrelevant 
20161129 23:50:15< iceiceice> i think you shouldn't just learn new technologies just because they are new, there should be a clear value-add
20161129 23:50:28< iceiceice> life is short, there are a lot of stupid techs out there
20161129 23:50:30< vultraz> you can stand alone waving your superior tech but if no one's using it you're still alone :P
20161129 23:51:07< DeFender1031> iceiceice, exactly my point. I've encountered too many cases of "what everyone is using" causing issues, being insecure, or not accounting for the use-cases it's supposed to account for to accept that anymore.
20161129 23:51:44< DeFender1031> vultraz, we're talking internals mostly, not end-user, but that's true too.
20161129 23:51:57< iceiceice> i guess u point to push back against inherent conservatism
20161129 23:52:10< iceiceice> its easy to say, hey we got this far, so anything we dont know right now isn't "necessary"
20161129 23:52:27< DeFender1031> exactly.
20161129 23:52:36< iceiceice> but idk if someone can't explain to me pretty quickly why something is better i'm inclined to be skeptical
20161129 23:53:05< DeFender1031> i'm not averse to change, i'm averse to detrimental change.
20161129 23:53:53< DeFender1031> or even change which doesn't gain anything... if it's not improvable, don't "improve" it
20161129 23:54:26< DeFender1031> and conversely, if it IS improvable, improve it using the best means at your disposal.
20161129 23:55:14< DeFender1031> but whatever, my point was that you can't keep up with the latest if you don't read about the new ideas and technologies coming out.
20161129 23:55:39< vultraz> true true
--- Log closed Wed Nov 30 00:00:58 2016