--- Log opened Thu Nov 10 00:00:16 2016
--- Day changed Thu Nov 10 2016
20161110 00:00:16< celticminstrel> How are you testing for OOS?
20161110 00:00:25< celticminstrel> Local server, additional computer, etc.
20161110 00:00:58< celticminstrel> If it was just a local server with multiple instances of the game, I'd expect that OOS to be impossible, but if it's two different machines, I could see it being possible.
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20161110 00:01:10< celticminstrel> No idea how it would happen, mind you.
20161110 00:02:16< lamefun> both local and remote...
20161110 00:05:27< lamefun> let me test again...
20161110 00:08:34< lamefun> let me quickly make a dumb test add-on...
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20161110 00:42:09< lamefun> celticminstrel, http://paste.ofcode.org/CtHKG7mMdbD7CgNKF9UpFF
20161110 00:42:23< lamefun> can de-sync, even on the same machine
20161110 00:43:12< lamefun> it works sometimes, but after doing things like exiting the game, starting the game in a different window than the first time causes the bottom group to de-sync while the top stays well-synced
20161110 00:47:20< lamefun> maybe Lua tables are not really independent and the Wesnoth main UI uses Lua?
20161110 00:55:08< lamefun> Or actually, it's probably just luck (there are only 3 groups after all)
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20161110 07:39:30< lamefun> can I tell Wesnoth to just give up and crash on Lua errors?
20161110 07:40:09< lamefun> when I edit the core utilities of my mod, one error usually causes so many errors that the log becomes unreadable
20161110 07:41:28< lamefun> code/common/utils/tables.lua:218: 'then' expected near 'do' -- 100 more lines after that
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20161110 07:58:02< vultraz> no
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20161110 08:54:23< lamefun> __newindex isn't called for nil?
20161110 08:55:40< lamefun> nvm it is
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20161110 11:48:05< wingsfalcon> ye ye i am here again
20161110 11:54:04< wingsfalcon> admin give me tutorial making wesnoth campaigh?
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20161110 12:02:40< wingsfalcon> helo
20161110 12:07:19< DeFender1031> wingsfalcon, https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_for_Complete_Beginners
20161110 12:07:57< DeFender1031> note that it's only partially complete.
20161110 12:08:08< DeFender1031> but still useful as a tutorial.
20161110 12:12:26< wingsfalcon> saya bingung pak mohon bantuanya, share youtube for tutorial
20161110 12:13:45< DeFender1031> i have no idea what you're saying, that doesn't look like english.
20161110 12:14:23< DeFender1031> as for the second half of what you said, I'm not aware of any tutorial on youtube
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20161110 12:31:42< wingsfalcon> yes upload tutorial in youtube
20161110 12:32:01< DeFender1031> no one's going to do that just because you demand it.
20161110 12:34:38< wingsfalcon> oh laerning in youtube is easy
20161110 12:34:54< vultraz> good god
20161110 12:35:05< vultraz> stop badgering people here or we will ban you
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20161110 14:48:41< Gambit> I should work on this some more... https://github.com/grickit/GambCivHD/blob/master/lua/action_tags.lua
20161110 14:49:07< Gambit> Maybe start writing software that makes people happy again...
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20161110 15:05:19< makruni> hmm
20161110 15:05:43< makruni> so, I tried to get a stacktrace for that latest shroud crash 
20161110 15:05:55< wingsfalcon> what?
20161110 15:06:16< makruni> oh, wrong channel :) 
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20161110 15:59:05< celticminstrel> Whee, one scenario down, six to go.
20161110 16:09:47< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, for what?
20161110 16:11:39< celticminstrel> Dialogue rehaul
20161110 16:16:17< celticminstrel> Maybe I should come up with an actual name for the elf city.
20161110 16:22:07< celticminstrel> Maybe it's because it was added later and is thus better, but I can't seem to find any significant improvements to the scenario 5 dialogue.
20161110 16:23:09< celticminstrel> Although... it might be better in terms of dialogue, but I think it does need improvement in other areas...
20161110 16:23:18< wingsfalcon> how to become developer?
20161110 16:23:55 * celticminstrel is talking about my add-on campaign if that wasn't clear.
20161110 16:27:02< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, yeah, i got that.
20161110 16:27:25< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i thought it was 9 scenarios though
20161110 16:28:01< celticminstrel> I inserted an extra one in the middle at some point. Not sure whether it was before or after you started it, since the description still said 9 until ... yesterday I think.
20161110 16:28:32< DeFender1031> that'd make 10 then... which is more than "one down, six to go"
20161110 16:28:46< celticminstrel> There were already three finished before that.
20161110 16:28:50< DeFender1031> (which is what i was asking about in terms of the number, though I realize I wasn't clear)
20161110 16:28:54< DeFender1031> ohhhhhh
20161110 16:29:05< DeFender1031> 10-3-1 does =6.
20161110 16:29:23< celticminstrel> Two I finished awhile back. I think the other I finshed yesterday or the day before.
20161110 16:29:31< DeFender1031> fair enough
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20161110 16:29:57< celticminstrel> I guess it was maybe an unclear way of stating it.
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20161110 17:22:15< lamefun> if the unit is upgraded past the maximum level, it is not reset on every upgrade?
20161110 17:25:13< celticminstrel> AMLAs do not trigger a rebuild as normal advancements do, right.
20161110 17:28:43< lamefun> can I detect that in post advance? since I apply some modifications there for which [object]'s are too cumbersome
20161110 17:29:20< celticminstrel> Um, not sure...
20161110 17:29:45< celticminstrel> I suppose you could store the unit's type in a variable in pre_advance and check if it's the same in post_advance...
20161110 17:30:18< celticminstrel> An AMLA is applied exactly the same as an [object] BTW.
20161110 17:36:48< lamefun> is unit.__cfg fast?
20161110 17:37:45< lamefun> i.e. is it just dumped completely or accessed incrementally?
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20161110 17:43:07< celticminstrel> Former.
20161110 17:47:55< lamefun> is store_unit in WML optimized? maybe I should revert everything that is possible back from Lua to WML?
20161110 17:50:23< celticminstrel> I think store_unit is pretty much the same as accessing unit.__cfg.
20161110 17:50:35< celticminstrel> ie, you get a copy of the unit's data in WML format.
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20161110 17:51:30< celticminstrel> I guess you could say store_unit is equivalent to wesnoth.set_variable(whatever, unit.__cfg)... assuming the filter only matches a single unit.
20161110 17:51:56< celticminstrel> (If it matches multiple you get a WML array of them.)
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20161110 17:54:38< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, is that not how it's implemented?
20161110 17:54:43 * DeFender1031 goes to check
20161110 17:55:29< DeFender1031> wesnoth.set_variable(string.format("%s[%d]", var, idx), u.__cfg)
20161110 17:55:48< DeFender1031> yep, that's pretty much the implementation, with a bit more logic to handle the array stuff
20161110 17:56:48< lamefun> WML is implemented in Lua?
20161110 17:56:54< celticminstrel> Oh, it is implemented in Lua?
20161110 17:57:04< celticminstrel> I thought store_unit was implemented in C++ for some reason.
20161110 17:57:15< celticminstrel> lamefun: Yeah, most of the WML tags are implemented in Lua.
20161110 17:57:35< celticminstrel> See data/lua/wml-tags.lua in Wesnoth's data directory.
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20161110 17:57:52< lamefun> what do I lose by not using .cfg files (I use WML of course, but Lua-generated)?
20161110 17:58:15< lamefun> btw, testcase for desync: http://paste.ofcode.org/CtHKG7mMdbD7CgNKF9UpFF -- the bottom group desyncs very often, even on the same machine.
20161110 17:59:11< celticminstrel> Well, you have to use .cfg files...
20161110 17:59:33< celticminstrel> Because when loading an addon, the game just loads _main.cfg and that's it.
20161110 17:59:37< lamefun> yes, but it's just for definition of scenarios
20161110 17:59:41< celticminstrel> Yes.
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20161110 17:59:47< lamefun> everything else is in Lua
20161110 17:59:50< celticminstrel> And unit types and terrains and stuff.
20161110 17:59:56< celticminstrel> Events can be entirely in Lua, sure.
20161110 18:01:17< DeFender1031> lamefun, "what do I lose by not using .cfg files" I told you from the beginning that you were unnecessary liniting yourself by insisting on doing everything in lua.
20161110 18:01:26< DeFender1031> limiting*
20161110 18:03:28< celticminstrel> ^unecessarily
20161110 18:03:55< lamefun> but in which ways?
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20161110 18:04:23< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, that too.
20161110 18:04:38< DeFender1031> lamefun, I'm not sure what you mean
20161110 18:05:14< lamefun> "unnecessary liniting yourself by insisting on doing everything in lua"
20161110 18:05:56< DeFender1031> you've already stated that you're refusing to use WML except when it's strictly necessary
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20161110 18:09:11< DeFender1031> Now you're asking what you gain by doing so
20161110 18:09:19< DeFender1031> The answer is "nothing".
20161110 18:09:32< DeFender1031> or sorry, inverse
20161110 18:09:33< lamefun> Good programming language.
20161110 18:09:45< lamefun> And better syntax for WML itself (no closing tags).
20161110 18:09:54< DeFender1031> you're asking what you lose by not doing so, but same thing
20161110 18:09:56< celticminstrel> Huh, you actually prefer that syntax?
20161110 18:10:35< DeFender1031> "Good programming language" from the person who constantly complains that lua's language features mean it was mad by space aliens.
20161110 18:10:58< lamefun> WML is worse.
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20161110 18:11:22< DeFender1031> sure it is
20161110 18:11:23< lamefun> And the very kind space aliens made it so that Lua is mostly fixable.
20161110 18:11:39< lamefun> https://github.com/kurapica/PLoop
20161110 18:11:43< DeFender1031> uh huh...
20161110 18:12:01< DeFender1031> please, do go on. (Insert image of willy wonka.)
20161110 18:13:57< celticminstrel> Note that the require function doesn't exist per se in Wesnoth; wesnoth.require has the same effect (I think?) but different interface.
20161110 18:15:12< celticminstrel> That aside, if PLoop makes you happy, you're free to use it for your Wesnoth coding.
20161110 18:15:58< lamefun> I'm not using PLoop, I've decided not to fight Lua/Wesnoth too much...
20161110 18:16:04< celticminstrel> (It actually looks interesting, though I probably wouldn't bother with it myself.)
20161110 18:16:08 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20161110 18:16:19< lamefun> and yes, the WML syntax in Lua is MUCH better: http://paste.ofcode.org/udRfKvudwJRQ9LpbAkkKUr
20161110 18:17:19< celticminstrel> No comment.
20161110 18:22:51< lamefun> also, the units seem to spawn with random facing (different on each side of multiplayer connection) even without any desync-causing code
20161110 18:22:56< lamefun> is this normal?
20161110 18:26:14< zookeeper> sadly, i believe it is
20161110 18:26:16< celticminstrel> No idea...
20161110 18:26:53< zookeeper> i think facing can also change via undo/redo, so it's not an OOS-safe attribute. not 100% sure if that's still the case though.
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20161110 18:28:09< celticminstrel> Does facing differences even cause OOS? It seems like the engine shouldn't really care if they're out of sync.
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20161110 18:29:42< zookeeper> celticminstrel, not unless you use them for something which results in other differences
20161110 18:30:10< zookeeper> so maybe don't go making an ability which works only in a given direction
20161110 18:30:13< celticminstrel> Oh, that does make sense I guess.
20161110 18:31:25< celticminstrel> It doesn't seem like an ability that only works in a given direction would cause a problem? Since the unit's facing is updated when an attack starts, IIRC. (Though... I'm not sure if that includes the tertiary units... or if facing is updated when healing...)
20161110 18:31:47< celticminstrel> ...speaking of tertiary units, why is there no [filter_tertiary]?
20161110 18:31:48< lamefun> thx, I just thought that it's a sign that there are hidden problems that might lead to OOS in my use of Lua
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20161110 18:40:53< zookeeper> celticminstrel, directional leadership for example
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20161110 19:19:20< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, how would [filter_tertiary] even work?
20161110 19:23:08< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: In an attack event it would match any unit(s) using a leadership or resistance ability.
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20161110 19:23:24< celticminstrel> Who are not directly involved in the attack.
20161110 19:23:46< celticminstrel> It'd mean passing more information with the event, though...
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20161110 21:19:13< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, couldn't that be done with a [filter_adjacent]?
20161110 21:20:00< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: Probably, but that's code duplication.
20161110 21:20:18< celticminstrel> ie, you'd be duplicating the conditions of activation of the ability in your event filter.
20161110 21:20:54< DeFender1031> true, though you may have to do that anyway depending on what you're using it for
20161110 21:21:44< celticminstrel> Well, what I was imagining is a third filter at the event level.
20161110 21:21:52< celticminstrel> Maybe [filter_third] rather than tertiary.
20161110 21:21:54< DeFender1031> i know
20161110 21:25:55< zookeeper> i fail to see how that would work
20161110 21:26:13< zookeeper> if it's just a unit filter, then no, doing the same with [filter_adjacent] would not mean duplicating any ability activation logic
20161110 21:27:13< celticminstrel> I think that might risk matching a unit that's not actually using their ability...
20161110 21:27:43< zookeeper> and limiting it to just testing for adjacent units having some specific hardcoded ability... uh, kind of arbitrary and awkward
20161110 21:28:03< DeFender1031> i'm with zookeeper
20161110 21:28:28< celticminstrel> It'd be able to match any unit who is using their ability to affect the ongoing attack.
20161110 21:28:43< celticminstrel> (I think it'd probably only make sense in attack events.)
20161110 21:29:10< celticminstrel> ...maybe [filter_third] gives the impression that there can be only one. [filter_other]?
20161110 21:29:33< zookeeper> i'll give it a 20% chance that anyone has ever needed that feature
20161110 21:30:07< celticminstrel> Maybe.
20161110 21:30:24< celticminstrel> I don't have a use-case at the moment.
20161110 21:30:53< DeFender1031> besides, it might simply be better to add a "has_active_ability" key to SUF
20161110 21:30:58< DeFender1031> and then use [adjacent]
20161110 21:31:09< DeFender1031> filter_adjacent*
20161110 21:31:39< DeFender1031> could even be yes/no for "any active ability" or a value for "an active ability with this name"
20161110 21:31:42< celticminstrel> Hmm, maybe.
20161110 21:32:00< DeFender1031> that would also work outside of attack events
20161110 21:32:22< celticminstrel> I guess it would, though in that case the ability wouldn't be doing anything at that precise moment.
20161110 21:32:52< DeFender1031> well, leadership WILL change the stats shown in the sidebar and attack selection dialog.
20161110 21:33:32< celticminstrel> True.
20161110 21:33:54< celticminstrel> I'd expect resistance abilities to also do that.
20161110 21:34:21< DeFender1031> but the idea of "active ability" in pertty much any context is really "has this ability and none of its deactivation criteria have been met"
20161110 21:34:26< celticminstrel> Or any other similar ability.
20161110 21:34:35< DeFender1031> illuminates, yeah.
20161110 21:34:37< DeFender1031> anything
20161110 21:34:39< celticminstrel> Something like that, yeah.
20161110 21:35:10< DeFender1031> anyway, such a key would strike me as less arbitrary and weird than having a separate filter
20161110 21:35:18< celticminstrel> Though in an attack event... isn't it possible that an ability being active isn't actually used? For example, what happens when you have two leaders next to the attacker?
20161110 21:35:48< DeFender1031> i... don't know.
20161110 21:36:00< DeFender1031> that's a good question.
20161110 21:36:07< DeFender1031> I THINK it takes the max leadership of the two
20161110 21:36:07 * celticminstrel would expect only the better one to apply.
20161110 21:36:35< celticminstrel> And only that one animates? Or both animate?
20161110 21:36:49< DeFender1031> that said, i can't think of a use-case where you'd need a filter to ONLY match the one actually providing the ability
20161110 21:37:02< DeFender1031> also a good question. not sure. i can go test.
20161110 21:37:13< celticminstrel> You might have a point.
20161110 21:37:28< celticminstrel> Okay, I'm going to add this to my list.
20161110 21:37:44< zookeeper> why
20161110 21:37:50< zookeeper> you just said you don't even have a usecase
20161110 21:38:00< zookeeper> why would you spend your time working on something that is potentially useless?
20161110 21:38:25 * celticminstrel is talking about DeFender1031's suggestion, not my idea, and adding it to the list doesn't necessarily mean I'll work on it.
20161110 21:38:32< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, BOTH animate.
20161110 21:38:44< celticminstrel> DeFender1031's suggestion is probably far easier to implement than my idea, as well.
20161110 21:39:21 * zookeeper shrugs
20161110 21:39:23< DeFender1031> odd that both animate.
20161110 21:39:26< DeFender1031> but they do
20161110 21:40:11< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, on more thing about my idea: if you're going to do it, it should also accept a comma-separated list. "leadership,illuminates"
20161110 21:40:48< celticminstrel> I wonder if the new ability_type I added does that...
20161110 21:40:51< DeFender1031> (Note that I'm not actually condoning this as a feature I think makes sense, merely that IF it's going to exist, this is how it ought to exist.)
20161110 21:40:57< celticminstrel> (I think it's still in a branch actually.)
20161110 21:41:37< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: Which leads to another question - tagname or ID?
20161110 21:42:18< DeFender1031> definitely tagname
20161110 21:43:05< celticminstrel> Looks like ability_type accepts a comma-separated list.
20161110 21:43:09< DeFender1031> id is mostly to ensure no conflicts
20161110 21:43:16< celticminstrel> Yeah, true.
20161110 21:43:16< DeFender1031> what IS ability_type?
20161110 21:43:31< celticminstrel> Something I needed to implement [heal_unit] in Lua.
20161110 21:43:55< DeFender1031> come to think of it, i think that's why the leaderships take the max... i wonder if a unit with a leadership ability with an alternate id WOULD cululate.
20161110 21:43:59< DeFender1031> cumulate*
20161110 21:44:24< celticminstrel> If you want to test you could start up THoT.
20161110 21:44:25< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, that tells me WHY it exists, not WHAT it does.
20161110 21:45:14< celticminstrel> SUF matching units possessing an ability with one of the specified tagnames.
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20161110 21:45:49< DeFender1031> ...
20161110 21:46:10< DeFender1031> so basically this minus it actually being active at the moment
20161110 21:46:15< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20161110 21:46:22< DeFender1031> wait... why would you need that for [heal_unit]?
20161110 21:46:36< celticminstrel> It's injected into the filter to match possible healer units to animate.
20161110 21:47:01< celticminstrel> Presumably because the C++ implementation did the same...
20161110 21:47:39< DeFender1031> i guess i don't fully understand how that tag works... it seems to take a filter for units to heal and another filter for units whose healing animations to play
20161110 21:48:05< DeFender1031> but then there's the animate= tag which is "if the healing animations must be played."
20161110 21:48:09< DeFender1031> which i don't follow
20161110 21:48:31< DeFender1031> won't it only anitame the units passed in the second filter, and always those units?
20161110 21:49:01< DeFender1031> or is this animate= thing some special magic which says "even if the filter isn't present, play the healing animation of any relevant nearby units"?
20161110 21:49:36< celticminstrel> Looks like it's just redundant.
20161110 21:49:57< celticminstrel> Maybe animate came first and then later someone thought to let you specify who heals.
20161110 21:50:19< celticminstrel> I guess it'd make sense to default it to whether the filter_second tag is present...
20161110 21:50:25< DeFender1031> but what do each of them DO?
20161110 21:50:40< DeFender1031> how does animate= change the behavior?
20161110 21:50:49< celticminstrel> if(animate) unit_display::unit_healing(*u, healers, heal_amount);
20161110 21:51:11< DeFender1031> and without it, the filter is ignored?
20161110 21:51:30< celticminstrel> Well, it's processed, but the resulting list isn't used anywhere else.
20161110 21:51:37< DeFender1031> and with it but no filter, no animation happens?
20161110 21:51:43< DeFender1031> yeah, that's ignored.
20161110 21:51:49< DeFender1031> practically speaking anyway
20161110 21:51:50< celticminstrel> If there's no filter...
20161110 21:52:14< DeFender1031> if there's no filter, but animate=yes, yes, that's my question/
20161110 21:52:28< celticminstrel> If there's no filter, then the healers list remains empty.
20161110 21:52:40< DeFender1031> ...
20161110 21:52:56< DeFender1031> so there's no reason for animate= to exist at all
20161110 21:53:05< celticminstrel> Seems like it.
20161110 21:53:29< celticminstrel> Oh, wait.
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20161110 21:53:59< DeFender1031> hmm?
20161110 21:54:31< celticminstrel> I think possibly the animation also includes something applied to the healed unit - eg, the text showing the amount healed.
20161110 21:54:56< celticminstrel> So with animate=yes but no filter, it might look like village/rest healing.
20161110 21:54:59< DeFender1031> that's the healed unit, not the healING unit
20161110 21:55:05< DeFender1031> ohhhhhhhhhh
20161110 21:55:07< celticminstrel> While with animate=no you just get nothing.
20161110 21:55:14< DeFender1031> that's... dumb
20161110 21:55:29< DeFender1031> that ought to be something like "show_text" or something
20161110 21:55:38< celticminstrel> Actually I suspect my Lua implementation doesn't do that...
20161110 21:56:28< DeFender1031> anyway, i still don't follow why you need a check for the heals ability. The units with the animation playing don't actually need to have the ability, any unit can be given a healing animation. If it's there, play it, if not, don't.
20161110 21:56:49< DeFender1031> sounds like something you ought to fix now that you've noticed.
20161110 21:57:11< celticminstrel> Well, it was already filtering by that ability, so I just went with preserving current behaviour.
20161110 21:57:15< celticminstrel> But you do have a point.
20161110 22:01:16< DeFender1031> seems like it ought to do what I said. If you don't want it to do that, you can either A: not be a moron who gives healing animations to non-heal units or B: if you do have a legitimate use-case for that (which I actually CAN think of a couple) you can include in the filter to only allow units who can heal (especially now that you've added that feature anyway). Basically, no need to do so internally.
20161110 22:02:18< celticminstrel> The question is whether removing that restriction is likely to break stuff... I suspect not though.
20161110 22:05:34< DeFender1031> if all it does is trigger a meaningless animation?
20161110 22:05:50< DeFender1031> in cases which don't actually exist in mainline AFAIK?
20161110 22:06:13< celticminstrel> It probably wouldn't even trigger an animation, because non-healing units in mainline don't have healing animations.
20161110 22:06:18< DeFender1031> I'm pretty sure mainline doesn't include healing animations for units who don't have heal.
20161110 22:06:21< DeFender1031> yeah
20161110 22:06:24< DeFender1031> exactly
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 11 00:00:50 2016