--- Log opened Wed Nov 16 00:00:14 2016
20161116 00:06:13-!- irco [~irco@HSI-KBW-134-3-111-4.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 00:51:36-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20161116 01:39:41-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E5117AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.]
20161116 02:02:03-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20161116 02:22:52-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 02:31:31-!- shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit []
20161116 02:47:33-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 03:08:54-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 03:16:44-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 03:18:30-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 03:18:44-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5DDD2B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 03:20:08-!- edaq [~edaq3@h184-60-58-252.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 03:29:23-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20161116 03:34:54-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@55d45e0c.access.ecotel.net] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 03:39:08-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20161116 03:51:05-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 04:01:46-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 04:03:29-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 04:08:39-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5DDD2B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 04:33:31-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 04:44:50-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 04:47:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 04:48:28-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 04:55:52-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20161116 05:24:49-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 05:41:53-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 05:50:16-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20161116 06:06:18-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD106161202162.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20161116 06:13:40-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD106161204170.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 06:16:20-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 06:30:57-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20161116 06:35:43-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20161116 06:36:02-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 06:39:35-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 06:43:56-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 07:02:08-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20161116 07:02:35-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 07:03:01-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 07:06:38-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 07:19:19-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 07:22:33-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20161116 07:27:30-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 07:35:05-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 08:01:54-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
20161116 08:03:34-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20161116 08:06:08-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20161116 08:11:04-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 08:14:26-!- prkc [~prkc@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/prkc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 09:28:29-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 09:38:49< Ipsilon> In the attack enemy dialog..the 40% is chance of enemy to evade?
20161116 09:39:54< Ipsilon> I did a test where I attacked a unit 160 times
20161116 09:40:10< Ipsilon> and it doesn't make any sense
20161116 09:42:46< zookeeper> it's the chance you have of hitting the enemy
20161116 09:43:05< zookeeper> but of course there's a number for both of you.
20161116 09:44:04< Ipsilon> maybe my math is off
20161116 09:46:04< Ipsilon> nevermind
20161116 09:46:11< Ipsilon> we are good
20161116 09:54:17-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20161116 09:55:42-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 09:56:09-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 09:59:23-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:00:17-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20161116 10:00:27-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:11:45-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 10:36:50-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:37:08-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Excess Flood]
20161116 10:38:00-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:38:15-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Excess Flood]
20161116 10:39:08-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:39:23-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Excess Flood]
20161116 10:40:16-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:40:30-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Excess Flood]
20161116 10:41:43-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:41:59-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Excess Flood]
20161116 10:43:11-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:43:28-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Excess Flood]
20161116 10:48:33-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 10:52:43-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 11:04:50-!- htee [~htee@dtcqfkybkjn-1jktws-dy-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20161116 11:32:57-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20161116 11:38:14-!- irco [~irco@HSI-KBW-134-3-111-4.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 12:01:24-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:7dc6:f9fa:fa06:d8b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20161116 12:14:44-!- TC02 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20161116 12:15:40-!- TC02 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 12:41:23-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
20161116 13:09:07-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 13:10:20-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 13:16:06-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 13:29:07-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20161116 13:31:19-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 13:31:34-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 13:48:58-!- lamefun [~lamefun@176.214.213.69] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 13:51:34-!- edaq [~edaq3@h184-60-58-252.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has left #wesnoth ["Leaving"]
20161116 14:33:42-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5DDD2B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 15:37:06-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20161116 15:38:32-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 15:56:00-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 16:05:51-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 16:08:05-!- elios [~elios@unaffiliated/elios] has left #wesnoth []
20161116 16:10:21-!- Shiki [~Shiki@141.39.226.226] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 16:10:23-!- Shiki_ [~Shiki@141.39.226.226] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 16:10:23-!- Shiki_ [~Shiki@141.39.226.226] has quit [Client Quit]
20161116 16:12:52-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20161116 16:13:30-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 16:22:45-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 16:35:18-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 16:36:07-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 16:51:42-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5DDD2B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 16:51:42-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 17:00:54< lamefun> can I make a time where both lawful and chaotic deal more damage?
20161116 17:18:25< zookeeper> i doubt it
20161116 17:19:09-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
20161116 17:20:23-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5DDD2B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 17:32:08-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 17:37:55-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 17:41:44-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 17:52:03-!- Jetrel [~Jetrel@2001:558:6014:1e:2422:435:dd84:bbf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20161116 17:59:53-!- Jetrel [~Jetrel@2001:558:6014:1e:2422:435:dd84:bbf3] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 18:11:15-!- prkc [~prkc@46.166.190.224] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 18:46:41-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 18:50:45< Ipsilon> it was fun doing the statistics thing. It'd be cool if wesnoth had a way to keep a "luck" metric for two players in a map
20161116 18:51:08< Ipsilon> basically a measure of the deviation from expected probability
20161116 18:51:56< zookeeper> check the statistics dialog
20161116 18:52:53< zookeeper> the +-% values denote the deviation from the "expected" value
20161116 18:56:29< aeth> There's luck and then there's luck where it matters, like when you miss with 3 units in a row and so lose the momentum
20161116 18:56:41< Ipsilon> oshi zookeeper, I knew about statistics, but didn't know what it was
20161116 18:56:43< aeth> I don't think you can measure the luck people talk about meaningfully because how will the computer know which ones were key?
20161116 18:57:21< Ipsilon> aeth: well, doesn't have to be exactly that...but my point was more that stdev decreases with events
20161116 18:57:28< celticminstrel> Naturally "expected value" just means average.
20161116 18:57:29< Ipsilon> so if a campaign has less events
20161116 18:57:33< celticminstrel> I assume.
20161116 18:57:39< Ipsilon> you may be way more unlucky than the computer
20161116 18:57:48< aeth> This is why thunderers are my least favorite unit, btw. They're very weak to this sort of swarm-and-still-lose luck while most units will at least get some hits in.
20161116 18:58:08< Ipsilon> I got my friend into wesnoth
20161116 18:58:13< Ipsilon> and he kinda complaiend about rng
20161116 18:58:34< aeth> Everyone does that in games with fair RNGs, that's how you know it's fair
20161116 18:58:36< Ipsilon> so I wanted to run a case
20161116 18:58:44< Ipsilon> well aeth, he is really into FE
20161116 18:58:54< Ipsilon> and he thought FE was more accurate
20161116 18:59:03< Ipsilon> he did some tests and eventually saw otherwise
20161116 18:59:05< Ipsilon> but still
20161116 18:59:22< Ipsilon> interestingly, when I was running my tests
20161116 18:59:39< aeth> Ipsilon: When people talk about bad luck, though, they're probably talking about situations where e.g. 3 thunderers go into bad terrain to try to take out one unit they could all kill in one hit, and one by one they all miss, and then that leaves 3 exposed units the next turn for retaliation
20161116 18:59:42< Ipsilon> I definitely expected less that 40% when my units were hitting
20161116 19:00:01< Ipsilon> and in most all turns (8 units), the number was 40%
20161116 19:00:16< aeth> A true measure of luck would have to look at these kinds of high-risk situation only
20161116 19:00:23< Ipsilon> aeth: yes. But that's not hte only case
20161116 19:00:26< celticminstrel> Well maybe they shouldn't be sent into bad terrain. :P
20161116 19:00:42< Ipsilon> celticminstrel: it was just for my test
20161116 19:00:45< Ipsilon> could have been any %
20161116 19:00:53< aeth> celticminstrel: You send your units into bad terrain so you can take out 1 unit, and then block them
20161116 19:01:02< aeth> It works most of the time
20161116 19:01:08< Ipsilon> there is a 1/100 of missing all 4 hits at 70%
20161116 19:01:28< Ipsilon> so I sahre sometimes the feeling of wtf when 60% I get 1/8 hits
20161116 19:01:29< Ipsilon> or something
20161116 19:01:33< Ipsilon> (on two units)
20161116 19:01:38< aeth> Right, and if you play enough Wesnoth you'll see lots of that 1/100
20161116 19:02:01< Ipsilon> aeth: agreed. I wouldn't really argue against the rng. 
20161116 19:02:04< Ipsilon> But anecdotally
20161116 19:02:16< Ipsilon> I played wesnoth a long time ago (was younger)...and the rng made me ragequit
20161116 19:02:26< Ipsilon> now I am playing and am getting used to the tactics, and it's fun
20161116 19:02:46< Ipsilon> but the point is...it'd be cool to have new players understand the implications of rng a bit better
20161116 19:02:51< Ipsilon> not sure if it's possible
20161116 19:03:39< DeFender1031> That's why people keep making "no randomness" mods
20161116 19:04:01< Ipsilon> DeFender1031: that doesn't really cut it imo
20161116 19:04:11< Ipsilon> nobody would ever think that no randomness is better
20161116 19:04:12< aeth> DeFender1031: no real need to do no randomness, just avoid using thunderers
20161116 19:04:36< Ipsilon> I think rng effects can be aliviated through other means. I don't necessarily think they are good for wesnoth. But there _are_ ways
20161116 19:05:07< Ipsilon> for example, making zero damage impossible is one way to make people feel less punished by risktaking
20161116 19:05:18< DeFender1031> I didn't say I'm a fan of those mods, just that people's frustration with how an accurate RNG works explains why they go and create them
20161116 19:05:20< Ipsilon> so instead of hit/miss, it's damage-based
20161116 19:05:42< Ipsilon> I would say that for 90% of people who don't like the rng, no rng is not the real reason they don't like it
20161116 19:05:59< Ipsilon> I think it's because if you play campaigns, brutal rng can feel a bit too "realistic"
20161116 19:06:16< Ipsilon> one thing my friend complains about, for example
20161116 19:06:31< Ipsilon> that units don't scale in accuracy per level
20161116 19:07:02< Ipsilon> he's sending a lvl3 expecting to at fair decently against a few lvl1's
20161116 19:07:33< DeFender1031> mm... increased accuracy with level WOULD be interesting...
20161116 19:07:54< aeth> a few do
20161116 19:07:57< Ipsilon> I think it'd be cool. But don't know the implications
20161116 19:08:03< DeFender1031> I mean, in general, a more complex stats system might be nice
20161116 19:08:14< Ipsilon> yeh DeFender1031. I can agree there
20161116 19:08:21< Ipsilon> I'm starting to live with the wesnoth system
20161116 19:08:49< Ipsilon> but some of the scaling of leveling can feel a bit restrictive
20161116 19:08:53< Ipsilon> specially in campaigns
20161116 19:09:00< DeFender1031> where the CTH is calculated as an amalgamation of the attacking unit's base accuracy rating minus the defending unit's terrain defense and their base evate stat
20161116 19:09:05< DeFender1031> or something to that effect
20161116 19:10:05< zookeeper> i think the reason people get frustrated with the RNG is because it's hard to stay in the calculating mindset forever that's required to cope with true randomness. sooner or later you just want to casually kill those couple of enemy units without grinding the repercussions of every little possibility in your head first, and you take the reasonably good odds you have of doing so... and if it 
20161116 19:10:05< zookeeper> fails, it's frustrating.
20161116 19:10:50< Ipsilon> yes zookeeper, that's a good way to put the more general case for why people can get frustrated with rng
20161116 19:11:11< aeth> Ipsilon: I find the real way to play Wesnoth is defensively, rather than relying on chance to hit
20161116 19:11:25< aeth> You take up the good terrain, and you sit there, and if someone attacks you from bad terrain, then you do retaliation damage
20161116 19:11:27< Ipsilon> aeth: that doesn't work in all campaigns
20161116 19:11:53< aeth> There's a massive gap between campaign play and MP play imo
20161116 19:11:55< DeFender1031> yeah, some campaigns are "fight your way through to this other spot"
20161116 19:11:58< Ipsilon> aeth: agreed
20161116 19:12:03< zookeeper> usually it's all good fun to micromanage things and avoid unnecessary risks, but as soon as you start playing a bit more casually, you start taking unnecessary risks, even if small ones, and sooner or later that backfires.
20161116 19:12:04< aeth> But you can take MPish heuristics into campaigns
20161116 19:12:05< Ipsilon> and I think there is the crux of the issue
20161116 19:12:05< DeFender1031> agreed
20161116 19:12:16< aeth> Some games have separate balances for SP and MP
20161116 19:12:25< aeth> Wesnoth sort of has this with e.g special items and units
20161116 19:12:32< aeth> Nowhere near as much as some games, though
20161116 19:13:00< aeth> Ipsilon: CTH isn't frustrating though if you see Wesnoth units in two categories: damage and block
20161116 19:13:11< aeth> Often the damage units are e.g. marksman or magic
20161116 19:13:26< aeth> e.g. mage down a wall of enemies, and then move in the spearmen
20161116 19:13:34< Ipsilon> aeth: ok, but how do you leverage that on a campaign where a new player doesn't know hwat to build?
20161116 19:14:03< aeth> You need to know which units have marksman or magic, and use them. If the campaign doesn't have any, it's a bad campagin imo.
20161116 19:14:07< Ipsilon> it's too punishing, specially when you couple it with a bad case of rng
20161116 19:14:32< aeth> In MP, I think every faction has marksman or magic... Northerners are a bit tough, their marksman is only poison (assassin) but still useful enough for taking out rough terrain enemies
20161116 19:15:37< aeth> But generally, you can play with offensive units and block units, and the block units can do some damage too, but they're prioritized for blocking
20161116 19:16:30< aeth> It's been a while but I think Northerners/orcs are the only ones where this doesn't work perfectly, unless you have elves-only (Rebels get mages in MP) and haven't promoted any shamans yet
20161116 19:17:22< aeth> Dwarves get ulfs, which might not be in every dwarf campaign.
20161116 19:17:42< Ipsilon> well, this is good to know for myself
20161116 19:18:01< Ipsilon> Still think that ideally a person would need less info to survive well enough :P
20161116 19:19:01< aeth> Hmm... I guess dwarves and orcs are both a bit tricky... with most unit sets, just find a magical unit and use that as a key part of your push (saurian augur, mage, dark adept, promoted shaman if campaign, etc)
20161116 19:20:24< aeth> Orcish assassins take on the role of taking out rough terrain enemies (except undead, then you have to use the archer and hope), but not the role of offense... the blocking units have to do that, or archers. So they don't have a key unit.
20161116 19:20:50< aeth> Dwarves, tbh, they're probably the most stalemate-friendly set of units.
20161116 19:24:58< Ipsilon> actually, forgot. But one of the really punishing aspects, is confronting hero units
20161116 19:25:08< Ipsilon> so easy to lose high level units
20161116 19:27:38< aeth> Depends on the campaign. If you have access to a slowing unit (e.g. a shaman or its upgrade), it's usually very low risk unless it's a magical unit or something so the risk is on the initial slow
20161116 19:27:58-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20161116 19:28:12< aeth> Really, elves are the best set of units for minimizing risk, complete with prioritizing many strikes over lots of damage in one strike.
20161116 19:29:18< aeth> Orcs in a campaign do get the goblin pillager, though, which has slow.
20161116 19:30:38< aeth> A few high level melee units don't stand a chance against slow and/or poison followed by magic ranged
20161116 19:31:24< Ipsilon> yeah, but orcs wih bows will destroy your slow unit
20161116 19:31:31< Ipsilon> i mean, if you surround in 1 turn, not a huge deal
20161116 19:31:41< Ipsilon> if you try to send a party
20161116 19:31:55< aeth> Always take out the leader unit last unless you're going for some sort of assassination to end the level faster or something
20161116 19:31:57< Ipsilon> maybe the campaigns I tried it in had too much gold per enemy
20161116 19:32:21< aeth> Prioritize the villages first, and then the units second, and then the leader last
20161116 19:32:24< Ipsilon> but I sent a pretty robust party, but couldn't really penetrate the 2 unit sper turn + incoming boss damage
20161116 19:33:56< aeth> Campaigns have turn limits because, really, with patience the AI is always easy. You just have to wait until it starves of units and gold, if there's time within the turn limit.
20161116 19:34:43-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 19:34:52< aeth> And then you slow the leader, and surround the leader. Alternatively, if the leader is getting off of the keep to deal with a unit, sacrifice that unit and then sit on the keep so the flow of enemy units stops
20161116 19:35:51< aeth> Skirmishers are great for this, both as bait and keep blocking. Too bad they don't come up in campaigns too often.
20161116 19:36:41< Ipsilon> yeh, I understand that much
20161116 19:37:01< Ipsilon> but it'd be nice to be able to do more in a single campaign that just protect Konrad (or whoever)
20161116 19:37:06< Ipsilon> which you can
20161116 19:37:14< Ipsilon> but at either huge risk, or huge skill
20161116 19:39:29< celticminstrel> [Nov 16@2:08:59pm] DeFender1031: where the CTH is calculated as an amalgamation of the attacking unit's base accuracy rating minus the defending unit's terrain defense and their base evate stat
20161116 19:39:30< celticminstrel> This already exists, and I think it's even exactly what you described - IIRC, a unit's accuracy is subtracted from the target's defence rating on their terrain. Similarly, their "parry" stat is added to their own defence rating on their terrain. Mainline units don't use it though.
20161116 19:40:05< celticminstrel> (Actually they're attributes of the attack, not the unit, but close enough IMO)
20161116 19:43:25-!- Shiki [~Shiki@141.39.226.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 19:50:41< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, if mainline doesn't use it then it's pretty useless unless someone is implementing a complete new set of units.
20161116 19:50:50< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, but good to know it exists
20161116 19:51:29< aeth> DeFender1031: stats are the easy part, quality art is the hard part
20161116 19:51:41< aeth> it's pretty easy to come up with new balance stats for every mainline unit
20161116 19:51:57< DeFender1031> aeth, true. I suppose one could simply copy and paste everything in mainline and rebalance them
20161116 19:52:02< aeth> (and then it'll take years to actually balance those new stats, but it's done through repeated playtesting so it's not really work)
20161116 19:52:10< DeFender1031> (though you'd also have to modify the type ids)
20161116 19:53:16-!- Kranix [~magnus@185.118.249.51] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 19:54:56-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20161116 20:08:06-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 20:10:19-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 20:42:01-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@2001:44b8:254:3200:4c94:5bea:1804:ea38] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 20:53:04-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20161116 20:54:38-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20161116 21:00:31-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 21:05:25-!- noy_ [~Noy@184.69.143.198] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 21:05:25-!- noy_ [~Noy@184.69.143.198] has quit [Changing host]
20161116 21:05:25-!- noy_ [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 21:06:54-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20161116 21:06:54-!- noy_ is now known as noy
20161116 21:13:09-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 21:16:13-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 21:26:27-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5DDD2B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161116 21:28:49-!- lamefun [~lamefun@176.214.213.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 22:12:55-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ChipmunkV]
20161116 22:15:12-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20161116 22:39:57-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 22:53:04-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20161116 22:55:12< celticminstrel> Well, I've finished going over all the dialogue in my campaign, though I'm sure some of it could still use work (particularly in the later scenarios)...
20161116 22:55:31< celticminstrel> Trying to write an end cutscene sort of thing now...
20161116 22:59:19-!- irco [~irco@HSI-KBW-134-3-111-4.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161116 23:09:27-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20161116 23:15:50-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has joined #wesnoth
20161116 23:21:23-!- Kranix [~magnus@185.118.249.51] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20161116 23:39:26-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
--- Log closed Thu Nov 17 00:00:30 2016