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20161117 16:57:11< lamefun> object effect resistance
20161117 16:57:29< lamefun> can I set a maximum so that a unit can't ever get more than 60% resistance from that object?
20161117 17:00:54< zookeeper> how would that be different from the object just setting the resistance to a fixed value?
20161117 17:01:10< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i think he has multiple objects that can set it incrementally
20161117 17:01:14< lamefun> if after an advancement a unit gets a base resistance upgrade
20161117 17:01:50< DeFender1031> lamefun, you might be able to add another effect where it replaces the resistance value with 60% and is enabled only if the value is over 60
20161117 17:02:06< zookeeper> well, no, apparently you can only either set a fixed value, or increment the existing value without a cap
20161117 17:02:20< zookeeper> ...unless you do more elaborate hacks, that is
20161117 17:02:47< lamefun> ok, I'll remove object on advance and then re-add
20161117 17:03:15< zookeeper> or maybe you could utilize a [resistance] ability too
20161117 17:03:28< lamefun> why is this madness of an object system even there?
20161117 17:03:45< lamefun> why not simply add some system to hook into the unit rebuild process?
20161117 17:04:11< zookeeper> there is no why
20161117 17:06:24< lamefun> [event] name=rebuild first_time_only=no <modify $unit here> [/event]
20161117 17:07:34< lamefun> or [effect] apply_to=command <modify $unit here> [/effect]
20161117 17:09:56< DeFender1031> there ARE advance events.
20161117 17:10:30< lamefun> but there seems to be no way to distinguish ones where unit is rebuilt from ones where it isn't
20161117 17:11:08< lamefun> I used to do just that and simply reapply shop items on post advance, but people started ending up with like 1000 health when they reached their advance cap...
20161117 17:22:36< DeFender1031> it's not even clear to me what the logic is on when the unit is rebuilt and when it's not.
20161117 17:24:28< zookeeper> can't say i know that myself
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20161117 21:14:22< lamefun> can I complain some more about Lua and space aliens?
20161117 21:17:57< lamefun> nevermind
20161117 21:18:29< lamefun> is there some way to trace how some Lua value came to be?
20161117 21:18:42< celticminstrel> Probably not?
20161117 21:18:47< celticminstrel> I dunno what you're doing.
20161117 21:20:17< lamefun> so I'm going to use something like this in my generator: http://paste.ofcode.org/sBC65Vh2FZzpcnL3k4bNzJ
20161117 21:20:54< lamefun> I didn't even get to use this list (doing some of the easier parts), and already:
20161117 21:20:58< lamefun> common/utils/map.lua:117: bad argument #3 to 'set_terrain' (string expected, got nil)
20161117 21:21:11< lamefun> common/utils/map.lua:165: in function 'apply_to_current_map'
20161117 21:21:55< lamefun> this function takes a location_set to { base = ..., overlay = ... } and applies the patch to the current map
20161117 21:22:21< lamefun> so this means, somewhere, there's a typo, and it won't tell me where because the error only becomes apparent when applying the patch to the map
20161117 21:23:29< celticminstrel> Well, that paste doesn't help.
20161117 21:23:44< celticminstrel> Because I have no idea how you're using that table.
20161117 21:24:32< lamefun> I'm not asking for help, it's a rant.
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20161117 21:34:30< lamefun> It
20161117 21:34:41< lamefun> 's all because Lua tables return nil when an element is not defined...
20161117 21:35:23< celticminstrel> Well, you could always configure them not to with a metatable, I suppose.
20161117 21:35:32< celticminstrel> That might at least get you a useful error message.
20161117 21:37:39< lamefun> I did that with _G, and my core namespaces, thought it would be enough, but it's not...
20161117 21:38:48< lamefun> I wonder what were Lua developers thinking when they made this the default behavior...
20161117 21:39:16< celticminstrel> I don't think you'd ever understand the Lua developers, so I won't even attempt to explain what they might have been thinking.
20161117 21:40:44< lamefun> It's not even always useful for reducing typing time, eg. table.subtable.item -- error if subtable is nil
20161117 21:45:05< lamefun> They should've done it the C# way: a.b = error if a is nil or not a table or b key does not exist, a?.b and a?[b] = error if a is not a table, nil if a is nil or b is nil or does not exist.
20161117 21:46:11< celticminstrel> I imagine it's possible to make nil.xyz just return nil (using the C API or the debug table which Wesnoth doesn't expose).
20161117 21:46:24< celticminstrel> Though I imagine it wouldn't really solve any problems to do so.
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20161117 22:01:35< DeFender1031> lamefun, just track the variable and calls back from where the error appears
20161117 22:01:51< DeFender1031> also, this is part of why soft-typung is evil.
20161117 22:01:57< DeFender1031> typing*
20161117 22:02:57< DeFender1031> lamefun, you can also create a bunch of assertion functions which only run if some debug thing is set to include at the beginning of functions to say "this parameter must be of this type"
20161117 22:05:24< lamefun> I'm redoing my schema system right now just for that.
20161117 22:05:59< lamefun> How is soft-typing different from dynamic typing?
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20161117 22:19:45< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, is there really no way to automatically save and load the state of lua's VM?
20161117 22:22:03< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure there's no reliable way to perfectly save and reload the state of Lua's VM.
20161117 22:22:15< celticminstrel> Because of first-class functions.
20161117 22:22:39< lamefun> why can't first-class functions themselves be saved?
20161117 22:22:51< celticminstrel> Because they might be implemented in C.
20161117 22:23:07< celticminstrel> And when loading, there's no guarantee that that function will still be at the same address.
20161117 22:23:24< celticminstrel> Pure-Lua functions might be saveable somehow. I dunno.
20161117 22:23:27< lamefun> just add an argument unique_id to Lua_RegisterCFunction code
20161117 22:23:34< lamefun> *C API function
20161117 22:23:51< lamefun> and to Lua_MakeUserData C function
20161117 22:23:55< celticminstrel> Now you're suggesting changes to the Lua API, which is out of scope.
20161117 22:24:16< celticminstrel> Oh yeah, userdata complicates the issue of persistence too.
20161117 22:24:22< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, true, but the lua-C API COULD theoretically track what memory addresses are lua internal and what are C data and alias/unalias as necessary upon save and load.
20161117 22:24:23< celticminstrel> I don't think a unique ID will help there.
20161117 22:24:26< lamefun> so, before loading a saved state, the C code should restore the userdata
20161117 22:24:34< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: Maybe it could.
20161117 22:24:55< lamefun> why it won't help?
20161117 22:26:10< lamefun> Lua state is dumped, then the C program dumps all info to restore the userdatas with the given IDs
20161117 22:26:38< DeFender1031> http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2009-03/msg00427.htmlcelticminstrel, 
20161117 22:26:46< DeFender1031> er
20161117 22:26:55< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2009-03/msg00427.html
20161117 22:27:03< DeFender1031> no idea how that got switched around.
20161117 22:27:12< celticminstrel> I was wondering why my name was in the link. :P
20161117 22:27:37< celticminstrel> It's not true that userdata cannot be serialized though.
20161117 22:27:37< DeFender1031> though, this approach doesn't actually save the state
20161117 22:27:52< DeFender1031> because it won't save closure states.
20161117 22:27:59< celticminstrel> It cannot be generally serialized.
20161117 22:28:01< DeFender1031> at least as far as i understand
20161117 22:28:05< DeFender1031> right
20161117 22:32:09< DeFender1031> there also appears to be a UNIX-only port of lua that includes this feature.
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20161117 22:32:18< DeFender1031> which obviously doesn't help wesnoth
20161117 22:42:33< celticminstrel> I don't really think saving functions is necessary or desirable.
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20161117 22:52:23< DeFender1031> well, if it's part of either saving the state as a whole or ensuring that closure states remain consistent, then it would be, but otherwise, i'd agree.
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20161117 22:54:00 * celticminstrel had to refactor my javascript game when I implemented persistence (using JSON) because the AI routines were set just by switching out functions.
20161117 22:54:30< celticminstrel> It wasn't hard though - just put all the functions in a table and replace do_stuff() with ai_table[do_stuff]()
20161117 22:54:36< celticminstrel> Roughly.
20161117 22:55:07< lamefun> Maybe Wesnoth could integrate Java or C# instead of Lua?
20161117 22:55:22< celticminstrel> EW, no.
20161117 22:55:45< lamefun> Both AFAIK can be called from C and have sandboxing mechanisms.
20161117 22:55:48< lamefun> https://blog.jayway.com/2014/06/13/sandboxing-plugins-in-java/
20161117 22:55:55< celticminstrel> I know.
20161117 22:55:58< lamefun> And Java is TIOBE #1.
20161117 22:56:05< celticminstrel> TIOBE?
20161117 22:56:46< lamefun> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ - programming language popularity index
20161117 22:57:21< celticminstrel> Interesting that C/C++ is so high.
20161117 22:57:41< celticminstrel> Also, JS is #8.
20161117 22:58:08< celticminstrel> ...why is assembly #9.
20161117 22:58:15 * celticminstrel isn't sure whether this list should be taken seriously.
20161117 22:59:15< celticminstrel> Out of the top 20, I have experience with 7 of them, huh.
20161117 23:00:23< lamefun> Why can't Wesnoth integrate Java?
20161117 23:00:34< celticminstrel> In top 50 there are 2 more.
20161117 23:00:46< lamefun> Lua's terrible :(
20161117 23:00:51< celticminstrel> I think Java is a terrible choice for an integrated scripting language.
20161117 23:01:02< celticminstrel> Because it's forcibly object-oriented.
20161117 23:01:38< lamefun> How is it?
20161117 23:01:41< zookeeper> lamefun, if wesnoth integrated java, would you finally stop saying that everything's terrible and for aliens and so on? :p
20161117 23:01:51< lamefun> Yes :D
20161117 23:02:03< lamefun> In Java you can at least rename a function with almost 0 fear.
20161117 23:02:06< zookeeper> well... that might make it all worthwhile
20161117 23:02:21< celticminstrel> I don't know what you're asking.
20161117 23:02:37< lamefun> How is it forcibly object-oriented?
20161117 23:02:50< celticminstrel> Because it's impossible to write a program that does not have a class.
20161117 23:03:23< lamefun> How is that bad?
20161117 23:04:12< celticminstrel> It's bad for an integrated scripting language, because scripts are often quite short, and thus you really need a language that supports procedural programming.
20161117 23:04:31< celticminstrel> (I think it's also bad objectively, but I'm not going to go into reasoning for that.)
20161117 23:04:44< celticminstrel> s/objectively/generally/
20161117 23:05:14< lamefun> is 'class MyClass { public int xyz() { ... } }' really that bad of a burden?
20161117 23:05:31< zookeeper> if you want a convenient one-liner then yes it's inane
20161117 23:05:36< celticminstrel> Yes. It's a huge burden.
20161117 23:05:53< lamefun> How?
20161117 23:05:55 * celticminstrel assumes zookeeper meant "insane" not "inane".
20161117 23:06:05< lamefun> inane is also a word
20161117 23:06:10< celticminstrel> It's three lines of cruft that have nothing to do with your program.
20161117 23:06:13< celticminstrel> I know it is.
20161117 23:06:27< zookeeper> well, no i meant inane
20161117 23:06:31< zookeeper> seems like it fits just as well
20161117 23:06:32< celticminstrel> In practice it'd probably be closer to five or six lines minimum, because imports.
20161117 23:06:41< celticminstrel> Okay fine. *shrug*
20161117 23:06:43< lamefun> use an IDE?
20161117 23:06:57< celticminstrel> For a one-use oneliner script? Don't be ridiculous.
20161117 23:07:14< lamefun> which Wesnoth add-on only contains 1 line of scripting?
20161117 23:07:17< celticminstrel> Possibly not one-use, but still.
20161117 23:07:34< celticminstrel> I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of addons that only have 1 line of Lua.
20161117 23:07:55< celticminstrel> Even if you include ActionWML as scripting, there probably are some (eg, random map packs).
20161117 23:08:39< lamefun> What for?
20161117 23:08:50< celticminstrel> I have no idea what you're asking now.
20161117 23:08:52< lamefun> (do they have that 1 line of Lua that can't be done with WML)
20161117 23:09:13< celticminstrel> I'm only speculating here, okay.
20161117 23:09:34< celticminstrel> If you want hard facts, ask zookeeper to grep it (if he's willing).
20161117 23:10:51< lamefun> I mean, some extra lines are a small price to pay for: good auto-completion, restructuring the code with almost zero fear, fewer bugs.
20161117 23:12:01< celticminstrel> I think you're inflating the value of Java's differences.
20161117 23:12:02< Ravana_> but price for using IDE would be manually moving code between IDE and addon
20161117 23:12:29< celticminstrel> In particular, Java code can be pretty bug-prone itself.
20161117 23:12:36< celticminstrel> NPEs left right and centre.
20161117 23:12:58< lamefun> same with Lua
20161117 23:13:08< celticminstrel> And if you're restructuring your code without fear, you're probably gonna be bitten in any language.
20161117 23:14:08< Ravana_> about the one line of code that WML can not do, any wesnoth.message would work
20161117 23:14:20< celticminstrel> Pretty sure WML can do that?
20161117 23:14:28< celticminstrel> With [wml_message] IIRC
20161117 23:15:16< Ravana_> that tags description doesn't sound like what wesnoth.message does..
20161117 23:15:39< Ravana_> >output silent text to the console, without annoying the player
20161117 23:15:44< celticminstrel> I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure there's a way...
20161117 23:15:49< Ravana_> sounds like exact opposit
20161117 23:15:50< celticminstrel> Maybe [chat] or something?
20161117 23:16:20< Ravana_> chat is close, with the horrible problem that it is never visible to observers, which is why wesnoth.message is needed
20161117 23:16:31< celticminstrel> Huh...
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 18 00:00:16 2016