--- Log opened Thu Dec 22 00:00:32 2016
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20161222 00:43:05< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2015) - Release ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 00:43:05< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-65
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20161222 00:57:35-!- iwaim changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.13.7 scheduled for sometime in the new year | Discord Server: https://discord.gg/tSmJS2E | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
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20161222 01:07:39< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2015) - Debug ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 01:07:39< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-65
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20161222 01:41:33< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2013) - Release ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 01:41:33< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-66
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20161222 02:06:39< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2013) - Debug ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 02:06:39< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-66
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20161222 03:50:03< vultraz_iOS>  How goes the kingdom in my absence?
20161222 03:50:44< celticminstrel> Under siege by the Crazed Monks of Fimple-Fwee.
20161222 03:51:02< vultraz_iOS> Oh dear
20161222 03:52:02< celticminstrel> They've broken down the gate, but then got distracted by the wine in the cellar, buying three days to prepare for the next assault.
20161222 03:53:19< vultraz_iOS> Gasp! Man the battlements!
20161222 03:54:18< celticminstrel> I have it on good authority that their weaknesses are milk, wine, and chocolate chip cookies molded into the shape of a gingerbread man with a santa hat, iced in full colour.
20161222 03:54:30< celticminstrel> But I doubt enough of those can be prepared in time!
20161222 04:00:02< vultraz_iOS> Bake bake bake!
20161222 04:00:41< celticminstrel> Obviously! Unfortunately the last three batches were burnt to an exquisite charcoal.
20161222 04:13:43< Aginor> charcoal is good, we can use it for the the christmas barbeque
20161222 04:14:08< celticminstrel> This is true. It'll be helpful once we defeat these crazed monks.
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20161222 08:42:24< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2015) - Release ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 08:42:24< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-66
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20161222 09:08:22< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2015) - Debug ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 09:08:22< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-66
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20161222 09:41:53< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2013) - Release ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 09:41:53< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-67
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20161222 10:06:27< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-67
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20161222 16:47:17< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2015) - Release ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 16:47:17< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-67
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20161222 17:10:21< matthiaskrgr> hm, so appveyor checks every commit 12 times? 
20161222 17:11:01< DeFender1031> finally getting around to testing what i have so far in 1.13. First thing I notice: in 1.12, if two units having a dialogue (using [message] tags) are both onscreen, the display doesn't scroll. In 1.13, it seems to be scrolling to center the speaking unit every time, which makes the scene look jerky and disconnected.
20161222 17:14:11< zookeeper> "blame celticminstrel" would be my guess
20161222 17:15:03< celticminstrel> Known.
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20161222 17:15:18< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2015) - Debug ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 17:15:18< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-67
20161222 17:15:19< celticminstrel> IIRC there's something in the wml_tag_porting branch that may fix it.
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20161222 17:17:54< DeFender1031> wonderful.
20161222 17:19:10< DeFender1031> anther couple of things:
20161222 17:20:05< DeFender1031> 1. the menu music starts with a lot of near-silence. It might be better if it could somehow skip the first several seconds and start where the music actually picks up. One of the things that blew me away the first time I opened wesnoth was the quality of the music, and while I understand the desire to not have the bombastic theme anymore, having near-silence for several seconds (long enough for someone to click on a menu 
20161222 17:20:06< DeFender1031> item and completely miss it) kind of ruins the effect IMHO.
20161222 17:21:59< DeFender1031> 2. the program seems to be requesting window positioning for no reason. I have three monitors and my global default is to open up a program on whicheer monitor the mouse is currently on. 1.12 does this just fine. 1.13 opens itself on my primary monitor no matter where the mouse is. I've managed to override this effect with a custom window filter telling it to ignore requested geometry, but it seems like this ought to really 
20161222 17:22:01< DeFender1031> be fixed in wesnoth itself.
20161222 17:22:52 * celticminstrel wonders how many people here are actually capable of testing something like that.
20161222 17:23:49< zookeeper> as for 1, i complained about that too when the music was changed but it seems like no one else cared
20161222 17:24:39< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I know i keep mentioning it, but an IPF-like system for sounds could help here too.
20161222 17:25:05< DeFender1031> zookeeper, and i dunno why, i see it as truly detrimental to the game's first impression
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20161222 17:25:17< Yaiyan> Wesnoth always opens itself on my primary monitor too
20161222 17:25:28< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, no idea, but isn't it wonderful that you guys now have me to tell you these things?
20161222 17:26:11< Yaiyan> And 1.12 doesn't, as with DeFender1031 
20161222 17:26:11< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, good to know. What OS or desktop environment are you on?
20161222 17:26:21< Yaiyan> Kubuntu 15.04, I think
20161222 17:26:24< Yaiyan> Kubuntu for sure :P
20161222 17:26:30< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, so KDE>
20161222 17:26:32< DeFender1031> ?*
20161222 17:26:35< Yaiyan> Aye
20161222 17:26:57< celticminstrel> I'm not sure how Macs normally decide which monitor to open things on, so I can't really test this effectively.
20161222 17:26:58< DeFender1031> So you could definitely implement the same workaround as I did. Still, that doesn't actually fix the problem in code.
20161222 17:27:10< celticminstrel> I've always seen it open on the primary monitor.
20161222 17:27:30< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well of course it's detrimental when the game greets you with what's just silence (on some audio setups that people probably commonly have, anyway).
20161222 17:27:46< celticminstrel> But I have no idea if there's something I should be able to do to force it to open on a different monitor.
20161222 17:27:46< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, another question: when you put wesnoth (1.12, haven't had a good moment to test 1.13 for this yet) into its built-in fullscreen mode, does it completely explode your display?
20161222 17:28:51< DeFender1031> zookeeper, even the near-silence of a few disconnected drumbeats is detrimental, IMO. (Note, perfectly fine for that track in-game, but as a menu theme, you should be greeted by immediate music)
20161222 17:29:01< Yaiyan> DeFender1031, how do you mean?
20161222 17:29:11< Yaiyan> Cover all 2/3 screens?
20161222 17:29:23< Yaiyan> (If so yes, and that's part of why 1.13 is moving to SDL2)
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20161222 17:30:30< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, no. i mean that it shows in a very weird resolution on only one monitor while blanking the other two, and then when wesnoth is closed, all of my windows and panels have relocated themselves to my main monitor, plasma completely stops responding, and i need to restart my whole machine to get anything to work properly again.
20161222 17:30:54< DeFender1031> s/my main monitor/that one monitor
20161222 17:30:57< Yaiyan> I can't speak for wesnoth 1.12, but fullscreen works fine on the svn version
20161222 17:31:17< Yaiyan> The 1.13 uses a different fullscreen mode, fullscreen_window as opposed to true fullscreen
20161222 17:31:56< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, when you get a chance (meaning you don't mind if the window positions of everything you have open get messed up and having to restart) you can test 1.12. Meanwhile, i'll do the same for 1.13 next time i'm in the aforementioned position
20161222 17:32:07< DeFender1031> ah, then it should be safe
20161222 17:32:27< Yaiyan> I can fully expect fullscreen might mess everything up on 1.12 :P
20161222 17:32:41< DeFender1031> IIRC, fullscreen_window just calls the DE's fullscreen stuff (which is what i used as  workaround in 1.12 to get fullscreen without having this happen.)
20161222 17:34:39< DeFender1031> okay, new question: it seems that the system of portraits/whatever/something.png and portraits/whatever/transparent/something.png has been redone into the main dir just being the larger transparent versions. While this is probably the right move, it does mean that every such image in my campaign now needs to be version-specialized (or at least updated for 1.13 if i stop caring about 1.12)
20161222 17:34:50< DeFender1031> i guess there wasn't a question in there though...
20161222 17:35:16< DeFender1031> a good question would be "is there some way of automating this"?
20161222 17:40:10< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: You had separate black-background images for small_profile? I think a lot of UMC just used the transparent portrait for both.
20161222 17:41:31< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, no, mainline.
20161222 17:41:40< celticminstrel> Ohhh.
20161222 17:41:43< DeFender1031> To be clear, I reference a lot of mainline images.
20161222 17:42:42< celticminstrel> I think it's not necessary to version specialize them. IIRC the game will remove the "transparent" path component if it's present and the image doesn't exist at that path.
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20161222 17:50:12< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2013) - Release ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 17:50:12< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-68
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20161222 18:05:39< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, I only discovered this because my "background=portraits/humans/transparent/mage.png" is coming up as the image not found hex.
20161222 18:05:46< DeFender1031> so no, that's not true.
20161222 18:07:11< celticminstrel> I was pretty sure there was some kind of auto compatibility thing...
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20161222 18:18:03< Appveyor> The Battle for Wesnoth (Visual Studio 2013) - Debug ln-zookeeper 5dbff70: UtBS: Fixed capitalization and a few other details in objectives Succeeded
20161222 18:18:03< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-68
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20161222 18:31:12< zookeeper> there's only some profile-specific stuff in types.cpp
20161222 18:31:24< zookeeper> but no general-purpose compatibility.
20161222 18:31:45< zookeeper> src/units/types.cpp that is
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20161222 18:43:22< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 7968f7ba5e12 / CMakeLists.txt src/compile_time_tests/ieee_754.cpp: Check that floats are in the IEEE 754 format when building with CMake https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7968f7ba5e1217eeff7cbe019aa07383a20133ef
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20161222 19:28:10< Aginor> celticminstrel: I've got 3 monitors
20161222 19:32:15< zookeeper> gfgtdf, WRT the "game idle" event thing, isn't there any gameplay main loop where it could be called from?
20161222 19:35:44< gfgtdf> zookeeper: this https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/play_controller.cpp#L1058 is the function that 'pulls' the user input while waiting for next command,s but lie i said the thread such an event would be unsynced and people coudl onyl chang teh gamestate via [do_command] 
20161222 19:36:19< zookeeper> gfgtdf, right, okay.
20161222 19:36:26< celticminstrel> You also use Linux, right Aginor?
20161222 19:39:12< Aginor> celticminstrel: yes
20161222 19:39:15< Aginor> fedora 24
20161222 19:39:33< Aginor> I don't have the same funky windowmanager setup thouhg
20161222 19:40:00< Aginor> but I normally find the primary window kind of thing a bit annoying
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20161222 19:53:55< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12471 (master - 7968f7b : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build was broken.
20161222 19:53:55< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/186152411
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20161222 19:57:12< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, zookeeper, in general, I like hidden auto-compatibility features like that less than I like those kinds of broad sweeping changes. In fact, I actually have no issue with the change made. In terms of compatibility stuff like that, in general i think there needs to be a system where we have messages that appear via stdout and also in-game if debug mode is active saying basically "xyz is deprecated, please 
20161222 19:57:13< DeFender1031> update the blahblahblah"
20161222 19:58:11< celticminstrel> zookeeper seems to strongly dislike these messages,
20161222 19:58:21< celticminstrel> He has disabled a few that I or vultraz added IIRC.
20161222 19:58:54< celticminstrel> They may have appeared in-game even without debug mode, though, not sure.
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20161222 20:18:41< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i would be against such messages appearing in-game outside of debug mode too
20161222 20:19:29< DeFender1031> but basically, i think that in order to ultimately move toward a clean codebase, we need to have a way to still support old stuff for normal usage while simultaneously pestering content creators to update their crap
20161222 20:19:34-!- Greg-Bog_ [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20161222 20:20:18< DeFender1031> and since it's probably good practice for content creators to always look at their stuff in debug mode, it seems like an ideal solution to show warnings but only when in debug mode
20161222 20:25:24< gfgtdf> DeFender1031: i dont think its good practise to alyws look your content in debug mode since playing is usula less fun in debug mode, for example you might ger spoilers about coming events or about enemey sides etc.
20161222 20:25:59< gfgtdf> DeFender1031: when i play my stuff i usuulay want the expereince  to be as close ot the experince of the players as possible.
20161222 20:27:19< gfgtdf> DeFender1031: also hals of my stuff are actually modifications, so i play them with normal campaigns/maps whose content i don't know and don't want to know in advance.
20161222 20:28:40< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 5fc50bf9ae2e / SConstruct scons/ieee_754.py: SCons version of commit 7968f7ba https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5fc50bf9ae2ee8a1faf90a9c8890182d1f192c20
20161222 20:30:18< celticminstrel> Why would you get spoilers about coming events?
20161222 20:31:18< zookeeper> DeFender1031, problem is that some of these guys just deprecate and remove stuff because they think the new way is "better", not because there is any technical inconvenience in supporting both old and new.
20161222 20:33:22< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: maybe that 2wqy a  bad example. I can for example open the side information and see a third hidden side that comes into play later, also i had itultiple tiems that some acampaigsn use ifdef
20161222 20:33:36< gfgtdf> #ifdef DEBUG_MODE to change the bahviour of the scenario
20161222 20:33:55< gfgtdf> liek for example maings event happen sooner (iirc LoW did this in 1.12 in scenario 3)
20161222 20:36:47< DeFender1031> gfgtdf, i didn't say you should play OTHER people's stuff in debug mode, i said that people working on their own stuff are likely going to be doing do in debug mode.
20161222 20:37:09< DeFender1031> gfgtdf, ah, mods makes sense.
20161222 20:37:37< zookeeper> i just wish we had a semi-automatic content upgrade system authors could use when porting add-ons. like wmllint, but something that everyone could actually use and which would work right.
20161222 20:37:38< DeFender1031> gfgtdf, agreed it's not a perfect solution, but it's better than either silently accepting it or suddenly failing on something that used to be valid.
20161222 20:37:57< DeFender1031> zookeeper, bloat is a technical inconvenience.
20161222 20:38:08< zookeeper> sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't
20161222 20:38:42< DeFender1031> zookeeper, IMO, it always is. it makes the code harder to maintain and take longer to compile
20161222 20:39:06< zookeeper> if you want to be pedantic enough to make "inconvenience" a meaningless word, then sure :p
20161222 20:41:36< DeFender1031> i'm not sure i understand what you mean. How does what I said make the word meaningless?
20161222 20:43:10< zookeeper> because if you call "if x || y then" instead of "if x then" bloat and a technical inconvenience, then being bloat and a technical inconvenience doesn't really matter anymore because it's clearly a trivial matter.
20161222 20:43:29< gfgtdf> zookeeper: its rareley as easy as that.
20161222 20:43:34< zookeeper> sure
20161222 20:45:02< DeFender1031> yeah, that's a little different
20161222 20:45:35< DeFender1031> I take a middle-ground when it comes to backwards compatibility
20161222 20:45:47< DeFender1031> if something makes sense to be allowed both ways, then allow it indefinitely
20161222 20:46:26< DeFender1031> if something was done one way, but really makes far more sense another way, and the only reason to keep the old was is for backwards-compat, then you deprecate it and ultimately remove it
20161222 20:46:48< DeFender1031> (after a generous deprecation period)
20161222 20:46:55< DeFender1031> that's my approach anyway
20161222 20:48:19< gfgtdf> also compabilty paths can often only handle the simplest code, for example after the [advance] -> [advancement] change its still possible to specilfy [advance] in add_modification, but when you try to query any modifly unit.modification.advance from stores units you code won't work in 1.13
20161222 20:48:42< gfgtdf> i wonder whether we deprecated [set_menu_item] needs_select= already?
20161222 20:52:37< DeFender1031> gfgtdf, right, a lot of stuff left in for the sole purpose of backwards-compatibility can prevent future changes.
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20161222 20:55:27< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 1553cc6b6bda / CMakeLists.txt src/compile_time_tests/ieee_754.cpp: CMake: print the bit representation of the test number https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/1553cc6b6bda36c6f51b8d8b3cfbd51665028bd1
20161222 20:59:24< DeFender1031> hmm... seems ~O(50%) is no longer working in [story] [image] file=... not sure if ~O() is broken or if IPF is broken in that context.
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20161222 21:00:03< DeFender1031> I had this really cool fade-in effect in my opening sequence that's now just... the image blinks into existance and sits there for a while.
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20161222 21:06:13< JyrkiVesterinen> Hmm... the test program doesn't output anything according to the latest log. Maybe it is failing to compile or something...
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20161222 21:07:15< irker299> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master c0c4bf3314d1 / src/game_events/menu_item.cpp: deprecate needs_select=yes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c0c4bf3314d161339de4de6abe113691d25b4187
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20161222 21:14:20< DeFender1031> JyrkiVesterinen, huh?
20161222 21:14:53< JyrkiVesterinen> DeFender1031: https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/jobs/186186452
20161222 21:15:11< DeFender1031> oh, not in relation to what i said
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20161222 21:21:06< DeFender1031> the rendering of maps and animation in 1.13 is much slower than in 1.12
20161222 21:21:17< DeFender1031> I thought it was supposed to be an improvement?
20161222 21:22:37< DeFender1031> I've also encountered a large number of other strange issues in 1.13 with things that worked fine in 1.12
20161222 21:23:04< DeFender1031> (Most of them are more complex issues that I have to track down.)
20161222 21:24:00< DeFender1031> Also, am I the only one who thinks the new water is too dark?
20161222 21:26:27< celticminstrel> I haven't noticed anything about water being too dark.
20161222 21:30:05-!- Kwandulin_2 is now known as Kwandulin
20161222 21:31:16< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 66a6e036e305 / .travis.yml: Travis CI, CMake builds: print full log if the build fails https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/66a6e036e305ed25441e791e2a4d8519b2fac0e7
20161222 21:31:20< DeFender1031> I dunno, my opening map is supposed to be bright, cheerful, and sunny (it opens on a sandy beach), and the new water just makes it look gloomy
20161222 21:32:13< DeFender1031> I suppose I could add custom water that raises the brightness... although that's the least of my current issues with 1.13
20161222 21:32:27< zookeeper> uh, just use tropical water then?
20161222 21:32:59< DeFender1031> ...
20161222 21:33:28< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I was referring to ALL the water being too dark
20161222 21:33:42< matthiaskrgr> you can turn up monitor brightness/contrast!
20161222 21:33:44< DeFender1031> like... it looks like night
20161222 21:33:45 * matthiaskrgr hides
20161222 21:33:56< DeFender1031> matthiaskrgr, you're adorable.
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20161222 21:34:10< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12472 (master - 5fc50bf : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build is still failing.
20161222 21:34:10< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/186179620
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20161222 21:35:09< zookeeper> well if tropical water is too dark then... well, i don't get how it could be. it's really light. i mean of course it's dark compared to the old water, but the old water was eye-damagingly bright.
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20161222 21:36:21< DeFender1031> not sure I agree. I liked the old water.
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20161222 21:36:37< DeFender1031> I guess my issue may be more with saturation than brightness...
20161222 21:36:41< DeFender1031> not sure
20161222 21:37:14< DeFender1031> but something about it definitely makes me feel like i'm lookig at an ocean in the dead of night rather than bright broad daylight
20161222 21:39:21< DeFender1031> The actual ocean typically IS "eye-damagingly bright"
20161222 21:39:42< celticminstrel> That's no reason for that to be carried through in a game. :P
20161222 21:40:02< DeFender1031> i'm not sure I agree.
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20161222 21:43:19< DeFender1031> anyway, i'm more concerned with the IPF i mentioned above, the fact that a terrain graphic with a transparent background that used to work correctly in 1.12 is suddenly showing bright magenta, the fact that my animations are running like molasses, and the fact that some lua that once worked is now giving me some strange issues.
20161222 21:45:22< DeFender1031> oh, and some terrain graphics that were working properly are suddenly not.
20161222 21:45:38< celticminstrel> I thought ~O() had been broken and then fixed again...
20161222 21:46:22< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, no idea. all i know is that it worked in 1.12 and isn't working in current master. I don't even know if the issue is with ~O or with the context in which I'm using it.
20161222 21:47:26< celticminstrel> Pretty sure image modifications should work anywhere that images are used (possibly excepting terrain graphics), since the IPF parser is intrinsically linked into the image loader.
20161222 21:47:58< DeFender1031> okay
20161222 21:48:06< DeFender1031> then it must be with the function
20161222 21:48:31< DeFender1031> I could use ~ALPHA_ADJUST but then it wouldn't work with 1.12
20161222 21:48:55< DeFender1031> (on the other hand, apparently there's a LOT i'm going to need to specialize if i want it to work on both.)
20161222 21:51:07< celticminstrel> ADJUST_ALPHA would probably be slower since I changed how it works.
20161222 21:51:17< DeFender1031> sigh...
20161222 21:51:18< celticminstrel> Though that's only the first time the image is requested, but still.
20161222 21:51:35< DeFender1031> is there anything that's NOT slower?
20161222 21:51:47< celticminstrel> Anyway, if ~O() is broken it absolutely needs to be fixed.
20161222 21:51:55< DeFender1031> i'm sorry. I realize I'm sounding like i'm only complaining
20161222 21:52:04< celticminstrel> Well, ~ADJUST_ALPHA() is slower more because it's doing more than it used to.
20161222 21:52:08< DeFender1031> there's a lot that i'm liking about 1.13 as well.
20161222 21:52:24< celticminstrel> It adjusts the alpha according to a formula.
20161222 21:52:27< DeFender1031> for example, the new lava looks great. (I think that was zookeeper, no?)
20161222 21:52:31< celticminstrel> Yeah
20161222 21:53:28< DeFender1031> I would recommend that now that it's animated, there be more of a lavafall effect on the transition from Ql* to Qx*
20161222 21:53:46< DeFender1031> (Though I realize how hard graphics can be to pull off.)
20161222 21:54:04< DeFender1031> but it'd be really cool if it looked like the lava was cascading down into the abyss on that transition
20161222 21:54:53< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 6c9ff7c4b388 / CMakeLists.txt: Print the compile output too https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/6c9ff7c4b3883cb0da51cb4b644f07b4af7c3aab
20161222 21:55:28< JyrkiVesterinen> ^ I needed to resort to that because CMake does not print anything that deals with custom compile-time tests to the log on its own...
20161222 21:58:21 * zookeeper is back
20161222 21:59:48< DeFender1031> zookeeper, see above.
20161222 21:59:57< zookeeper> IPF works with terrain graphics just fine
20161222 22:01:37< zookeeper> i don't recall any terrain graphics stuff that would have broken from 1.12->1.13
20161222 22:03:32< JyrkiVesterinen> OK, found the problem. Travis attempts to complain the test program as C++98.
20161222 22:03:58< JyrkiVesterinen> It works on my machine because I have GCC 6.2.1 that compiles as C++14 by default.
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20161222 22:04:39< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12473 (master - 1553cc6 : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build is still failing.
20161222 22:04:39< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/186186446
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20161222 22:06:17< gfgtdf> i wonder why that programm woudl fail under c++98 ?
20161222 22:07:01< JyrkiVesterinen> It uses some C++11 features, especially uint64_t (<cstdint>).
20161222 22:10:34< celticminstrel> Why would it be compiled as C++98?
20161222 22:11:27< JyrkiVesterinen> It's quite surprising to me, too. I would expect both CMake and SCons to use the same options as for Wesnoth itself, not defaults.
20161222 22:12:28-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p200300760F6EBFA9790A740B326489EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161222 22:13:26< zookeeper> DeFender1031, as for the water, my suspicion is that it just takes a short while of getting used to. the old one was so hyper-saturated compared to most other terrains that it's a big change.
20161222 22:17:00< zookeeper> i realize "you get used to it" is a bit of a bummer argument, but i do think it's true and that you'll also much prefer the new one after a brief adjustment period :p
20161222 22:26:59< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 9ad78036b5a5 / CMakeLists.txt SConstruct: Attempted fix for builds failing with compilers older than GCC 6 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/9ad78036b5a5d83860c97b27e16799e6496038e0
20161222 22:30:17< DeFender1031> zookeeper, about broken terrain graphics, i mean a bunch of stuff was changed in terms of how things line up, so a bunch of the custom graphics I added no longer look right.
20161222 22:30:50< zookeeper> right. out of curiosity, what things?
20161222 22:30:54< DeFender1031> zookeeper, you may be right about the water... i'll give it some time.
20161222 22:31:13< DeFender1031> zookeeper, one example, walls.
20161222 22:31:58< zookeeper> mmkay. well, yeah, terrain updates tend to do that
20161222 22:35:36< DeFender1031> right, it's just a lot of updating on my end
20161222 22:36:03< DeFender1031> and i need to decide if it's worth specializing for both 1.12 and 1.13 or just switch to 1.13 and say screw 1.12
20161222 22:36:45< DeFender1031> sorry, i guess i lumped a bunch of stuff that's bugs with a bunch of stuff that's simply part of the annoyance of a normal graphical update
20161222 22:36:58< DeFender1031> although I do wonder why things render more slowly.
20161222 22:37:22 * celticminstrel was planning to make one more DruidSiege release for 1.12 and then switch over to 1.13, though my inability to edit maps in 1.13 could pose a small problem/
20161222 22:37:23< DeFender1031> for example, a quake animation was running with a visible frame rate.
20161222 22:37:53< DeFender1031> or... not sure how to phrase it... basically, slow enough that it looked like stop-motion rather than smooth movement.
20161222 22:38:10< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, why can't you edit maps?
20161222 22:38:33< DeFender1031> zookeeper, btw, waht did you think of my suggestion for adding a lavafall?
20161222 22:38:45< celticminstrel> Well technically, I probably could if I launched it from the command-line, but... basically Wesnoth crashes as soon as I open the file chooser dialog.
20161222 22:39:00< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, that's... bad. No idea why?
20161222 22:39:16< celticminstrel> This is the case in 1.13.6 at least, and was the case on latest master too, but the other Mac-users don't get it.
20161222 22:39:28< celticminstrel> No idea why, no. The stack trace isn't very helpful.
20161222 22:39:33< DeFender1031> :/
20161222 22:39:35< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well what's to think? if someone manages to do that then great
20161222 22:39:35< celticminstrel> ^latest master last time I checked
20161222 22:39:54< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, anything weird about your path? spaces? strange characters? symlinks?
20161222 22:39:54< celticminstrel> The stack trace points into Boost.Locale somewhere.
20161222 22:40:22< celticminstrel> Well, there are spaces in the Wesnoth userdata dir path. This is unavoidable on Mac if you use standard locations.
20161222 22:40:24< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I was thinking more like *you* than "someone". :P
20161222 22:40:45< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i'll settle for just the basic lava for now
20161222 22:40:51< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, i suppose i should have clarified to say "in ways that others don't have"
20161222 22:41:07< DeFender1031> zookeeper, boo. where's your sense of adventure? :P
20161222 22:41:10< celticminstrel> No symlinks or strange characters.
20161222 22:41:47< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, odd files? anything about the filestructure that's different from normal?
20161222 22:42:28< zookeeper> DeFender1031, it's in taking on things like the new lava? :p
20161222 22:43:10< DeFender1031> zookeeper, btw, part of the issue i'm having with terrain graphics not playing nice probably comes from me not understanding the terrain graphics system all that well to begin with... I kinda just copy and modify the WML for similar stuff until it looks right.
20161222 22:43:12< zookeeper> it's just a) not limitless and b) completely devoid of prioritization :p
20161222 22:43:49< zookeeper> DeFender1031, sure, there's a bit of a learning curve there
20161222 22:44:03< celticminstrel> Pretty sure there isn't anything like that.
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20161222 22:44:08< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12475 (master - 66a6e03 : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build is still failing.
20161222 22:44:08< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/186195678
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20161222 22:44:26< celticminstrel> Crash occurs while collating filenames IIRC.
20161222 22:44:35< DeFender1031> zookeeper, your "bit" is my "fleetload".
20161222 22:44:37< DeFender1031> :P
20161222 22:45:21< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, very odd, though that would seem to point to some kind of character issue.
20161222 22:45:37< celticminstrel> Or memory corruption.
20161222 22:46:11< DeFender1031> but what would be corrupting the memory in that case?
20161222 22:46:16< celticminstrel> I don't recall matthiaskrgr finding anything relevant to that, though I dunno if he's tried going into the editor and loading a map...
20161222 22:46:18< celticminstrel> No idea!
20161222 22:46:55< matthiaskrgr> mmh?
20161222 22:47:00< matthiaskrgr> "a" map?
20161222 22:47:14< DeFender1031> btw, zookeeper, about the walls, I actually DO like the new, slightly narrower wall hexes, even if they do make my custom walls act totally broken.
20161222 22:47:20< celticminstrel> matthiaskrgr: Well, since the crash occurs on viewing the dialog, it's before I get a chance to select a map to load.
20161222 22:47:37-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20161222 22:47:43< matthiaskrgr> hmm
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20161222 22:47:51 * celticminstrel mentioned you because address sanitizer.
20161222 22:48:00< DeFender1031> I honestly like a lot of the new stuff in 1.13. I just see a lot of regression that I don't like.
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20161222 22:49:04< matthiaskrgr> what the fuck :(
20161222 22:49:12< matthiaskrgr> when I modify a map, I can re-load it 
20161222 22:49:15< matthiaskrgr> because "its already open"
20161222 22:49:19< matthiaskrgr> but I modified it in between!! 
20161222 22:50:04< matthiaskrgr> well it seems to work at least with 5dbff70e155de5d061ea7e048d8c5cc46a29bd18  
20161222 22:50:36< celticminstrel> I assume "work" also means no asan complaints.
20161222 22:50:45< matthiaskrgr> yeh
20161222 22:50:53 * celticminstrel sigh
20161222 22:51:08< matthiaskrgr> let me try again with an up to date build
20161222 22:51:17< celticminstrel> I'm not even sure if it's truly worth fixing, since I seem to be the only one who gets it.
20161222 22:51:22< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I have a request, and I realize it's probably a rather large request, so feel free to just tell me "hell no, figure it out yourself", but would you be willing to give me a tutorial sometime on how exactly terrain graphics work, including the various standard macros, pixel distances for various categories of graphics, etc.? I've read most of the documentation, but it's complex, confusing without seeing something 
20161222 22:51:24< celticminstrel> Unless there are other players in 10.7.
20161222 22:51:24< DeFender1031> in practise, and some of it is either poorly documented or hard to find.
20161222 22:52:50-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20161222 22:52:54< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, in my experience, even a hard-to-reproduce or only-happens-to-one-person bug tends to have deeper implications which warrant trying to fix.
20161222 22:53:57< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, on the other hand, I have seen such bugs turn out to be the result of some obscure bug in one particular version of some library in use.
20161222 22:55:39 * celticminstrel nod
20161222 22:55:58< matthiaskrgr> ugh I have to make a rebuild because cmake stuff changed .__.
20161222 22:56:18< zookeeper> DeFender1031, sure i can try to explain the basics. in essence the system is actually pretty simple, most of the seeming complexity comes from macros.
20161222 22:57:32< JyrkiVesterinen> matthiaskrgr: I'm still making changes. My latest commit fixed build with GCC <6 on SCons but not on CMake.
20161222 22:57:35< celticminstrel> matthiaskrgr: The bug has been around since 1.13.6, so it's not too likely that a rebuild would make a difference.
20161222 22:57:48< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i can't explain everything about macros or perhaps whatever you mean by pixel distances, but the [terrain_graphics] tag itself isn't that complicated.
20161222 22:58:03< matthiaskrgr> JyrkiVesterinen: does llvm work though?
20161222 22:58:07< JyrkiVesterinen> I also need to remove the additional output I added, but I think I'll sleep first.
20161222 22:58:49-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20161222 22:58:59< JyrkiVesterinen> I don't know which C++ version LLVM uses by default. If it's C++11 or C++14, you're fine.
20161222 22:59:17< matthiaskrgr> well, I guess I'll find out xD
20161222 23:00:42< zookeeper> DeFender1031, like, don't ask me to explain the bridge macros :>
20161222 23:01:45< matthiaskrgr> if you make a wrong step, you will fall into the macro abyss?
20161222 23:01:59< zookeeper> no you might just instantly go insane
20161222 23:02:21< matthiaskrgr> mmmh
20161222 23:02:28< zookeeper> don't look!
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20161222 23:02:57< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12476 (master - 6c9ff7c : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build is still failing.
20161222 23:02:57< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/186200773
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20161222 23:02:59< DeFender1031> zookeeper, see? that's the thing. I'd love to understand those too.
20161222 23:03:54< DeFender1031> matthiaskrgr, you use cmake?
20161222 23:04:02< matthiaskrgr> yes
20161222 23:04:03-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20161222 23:04:45< DeFender1031> matthiaskrgr, then maybe you can answer my question. When exactly does one need to rerun cmake, and when is just running make enough? What kinds of changes require a full cmake rebuild?
20161222 23:05:46< matthiaskrgr> if any of the cmake files are touched, a rebuild of cmake is required I guess
20161222 23:05:55< zookeeper> DeFender1031, then you just have to prepare to have to spend a while figuring it out
20161222 23:06:21< zookeeper> it's not impossible, i'm pretty sure a human wrote them in the first place after all
20161222 23:06:25< matthiaskrgr> its  the same if configure.ac changes on an autotools system :P 
20161222 23:06:55< DeFender1031> zookeeper, what i meant by pixel distances is like, for example, the wall transition stuff uses the rotate feature to do stuff, and the sizes of the corner graphics seem to not be anything close to based on the usual 72x72. It also seems that each rotation somehow has its own size that works for it.
20161222 23:07:04< DeFender1031> or rather, centerpoint.
20161222 23:07:49< DeFender1031> matthiaskrgr, i'm not very familiar with cmake, so i'm not sure what you mean by that.
20161222 23:08:07< irker299> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master ea55e7dbbca2 / CMakeLists.txt: Second attempt to fix builds failing with GCC < 6 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ea55e7dbbca2b5a97242b988f590e7bed9525a6e
20161222 23:11:58< zookeeper> DeFender1031, oh, that. it's simple: for some archaic reason the map= thingy of rules has a limitation which means that when rotations are done, this is what happens to the map= internally: https://paste.ee/p/RUr2d
20161222 23:12:04< zookeeper> that is, the top left has to be a full hex
20161222 23:12:28< zookeeper> which is why for the odd rotations, the map actually has an extra half-hex at the top
20161222 23:12:39< zookeeper> which is why the images used for odd rotations are taller
20161222 23:13:29< zookeeper> you can take a hex grid and check with some castle tiles or something
20161222 23:13:38< EliDupree>  Is there any way for lua script to know (or guess with some reliability) whether they are running in a standalone scenario or a campaign?
20161222 23:16:06< gfgtdf> EliDupree: there is wesnoth.game_config.mp_settings.mp_campaign which is nil in [multiplayer] games (note that wesnoth.game_config.mp_settings might be nil in sp games)
20161222 23:16:15< EliDupree> hmm
20161222 23:16:39< EliDupree> cool
20161222 23:16:48< JyrkiVesterinen> My latest commit fixed the build. I'm going to bed now.
20161222 23:16:53-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~jyrki@87-92-20-44.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Sleep]
20161222 23:17:11< EliDupree> What are the possible values of wesnoth.game_config.campaign_type?
20161222 23:17:16< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: is your crash in editor dialog on our bugtracker ?
20161222 23:18:18< gfgtdf> EliDupree: there is this struct in the c++ code https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/dc89612dc4cde077dfa55dd062925bffdc77f6c8/src/game_classification.hpp#L41 might be the sme not sure
20161222 23:19:13< EliDupree> (I'm thinking about forward-compatibility to 1.13 allowing modifications in single player campaigns)
20161222 23:19:28< gfgtdf> EliDupree: at lest the c++ sturct behaves unexpected when i uesdit the first time, i'd test to make usre that it really has teh expected value (e.g. test in sp campaigns, mp [multiplayer], mp campaigns)
20161222 23:19:41< gfgtdf> least*
20161222 23:19:46< gfgtdf> behaved*
20161222 23:19:47< EliDupree> heh
20161222 23:20:17< gfgtdf> EliDupree: i wouldn't worry about test and tutorial though
20161222 23:21:41-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20161222 23:27:19< DeFender1031> zookeeper, okay, that makes a certain amount of sense, in a backwards sort of way.
20161222 23:28:49< DeFender1031> zookeeper, though I think your example swaps 1 and 3, unless i'm completely misunderstanding how rotations work
20161222 23:30:27< zookeeper> yeah don't mind the number positions
20161222 23:30:52< DeFender1031> also, what's "." in a map?
20161222 23:31:26< zookeeper> same as * (that is, "can be anything"), but nothing gets drawn on . hexes
20161222 23:32:12< DeFender1031> ah, interesting
20161222 23:32:13< zookeeper> basically, "ignore this hex, it's just here for proper spacing"
20161222 23:32:26< DeFender1031> is there really ever a reason why you would want . over *?
20161222 23:32:47< DeFender1031> if the graphic doesn't extend there, then it won't render. if it does, you probably want it to do so, no?
20161222 23:34:41< zookeeper> extra semantics for clarity, and sometimes you might want a graphic to not get drawn on some hex, and i guess it might speed things up slightly because if you use * then the game has to check whether the part of the image that covers that hex is fully transparent or not (if it is, then it's optimized away and doesn't actually get rendered), but if you just use . then it can just discard 
20161222 23:34:42< zookeeper> it immediately
20161222 23:36:08< zookeeper> (p.s. that empty hex optimization thing is nice because otherwise a lot of castle tiles and such would end up causing tons of empty blits on nearby hexes)
20161222 23:37:15< DeFender1031> hmm
20161222 23:37:26< DeFender1031> well, we wouldn't want empty blits.
20161222 23:37:50< zookeeper> basically, when it parses terrain graphics rules, it cuts all images into hex size and shape and allots the pieces to the appropriate hexes (it doesn't actually blit the whole great tree, for example, at the right position on-screen so it covers 2 hexes; it cuts it into two pieces that it can draw per-hex)... but if an image is completely transparent, it just discards it.
20161222 23:38:18< DeFender1031> IIRC, the Germans tried empty blits during the war, and that didn't end well for them, so...
20161222 23:38:21< zookeeper> so, you can help it a tiny little bit by denoting empty hexes with . instead of *
20161222 23:39:11< DeFender1031> zookeeper, is that really the best way for the system to render? that seems slower than just redering as a unit, no?
20161222 23:39:55< zookeeper> it's the best way for the current software rendering system, i'm sure
20161222 23:40:42< EliDupree> gfgtdf: wesnoth.game_config.mp_settings.mp_campaign appears NOT to be nil in multiplayer, but instead, ""
20161222 23:40:43< zookeeper> but the current software rendering system is naturally not the best way to render
20161222 23:41:12< EliDupree> (1.12)
20161222 23:41:31< DeFender1031> zookeeper, fair.
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20161222 23:45:29< zookeeper> DeFender1031, if you do anything much with terrain graphics, you should always have a few convenient hexmap images at hand, for checking multihex image sizes and alignment with each other and so on.
20161222 23:46:12< zookeeper> my trusty https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63964618/wesnoth/hexmap.png has served me for years beyond counting
20161222 23:47:11< DeFender1031> zookeeper, i tend to just do stuff mathematically
20161222 23:47:32< DeFender1031> but this is without a doubt useful
20161222 23:47:59< DeFender1031> why is this not in mainline? IIRC there's a tool dir in the images for stuff like this
20161222 23:48:57 * zookeeper shrugs
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20161222 23:50:04< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12477 (master - 9ad7803 : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build is still failing.
20161222 23:50:04< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/186208465
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20161222 23:53:36< matthiaskrgr> didn't see a crash reagrding the editor and map load screen
--- Log closed Fri Dec 23 00:00:16 2016