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20161222 00:57:35-!- iwaim changed the topic of #wesnoth to: Check out our Discord server: https://discord.gg/tSmJS2E | Wesnoth User Channel | http://wesnoth.org | Latest stable version: 1.12.6 | Latest development version: 1.13.6 | Check the upness of Wesnoth servers: http://status.wesnoth.org | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pasteb
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20161222 17:05:28< Yaiyan> Wesnoth and 4k don't seem to work well together :(
20161222 17:05:32< Yaiyan> So slow :/
20161222 17:06:34< Yaiyan> Or not, the menu's are crazy slow, but after starting a game, it runs pretty well
20161222 17:15:50< celticminstrel> 4k
20161222 17:15:53< celticminstrel> ?
20161222 17:16:04< celticminstrel> And is this Wesnoth 1.12?
20161222 17:16:26< Yaiyan> .13
20161222 17:16:32< Yaiyan> Just pulled
20161222 17:16:59< celticminstrel> Ah.
20161222 17:17:05< Yaiyan> Once I've actually started a game, there's no issue at all, though
20161222 17:17:10< celticminstrel> Menus being slow is a bit ominous since that's GUI2.
20161222 17:22:19< zookeeper> does the menu slowness happen every time or was it just once?
20161222 17:22:22< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, 4k i think is the resolution
20161222 17:22:35< zookeeper> because the titlescreen and menus you get from there is occasionally _really_ slow
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20161222 17:23:45< Yaiyan> I found the titlescreen wasn't as slow after closing the game I opened, yeah
20161222 17:23:53< Yaiyan> But after first opening wesnoth it's unusably slow
20161222 17:25:30< zookeeper> i dunno what causes it, but it happens sometimes. sometimes i have the patience to keep waiting so i can get through those couple of clicks to start a campaign, but sometimes i just kill it and restart because it's faster.
20161222 17:36:21< DeFender1031> intermittent bugs that you can't pin on anything deterministic are the worst, because you can never be sure you know what caused them, and thus can never be sure you fixed them.
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20161222 19:19:58< aeth> Wesnoth doesn't go well with 4k, no. It doesn't scale, so the higher your resolution, the smaller everything is.
20161222 19:20:36< aeth> And the zoom is pretty bad... even in the dev version. Unless it's changed, you can no longer zoom out a ridiculous amount, which means you can no longer zoom to see all of a very, very large map
20161222 19:20:48< aeth> But with 4k, zooming in is more important, and there are artifacts iirc.
20161222 19:21:17< Yaiyan> I don't really mind things being zoomed out, to be fair; but the slowness of the menus is a pain
20161222 19:21:27< Yaiyan> The zooming the units use is pretty cool though
20161222 19:22:22< aeth> What I mean is, it clearly wasn't designed with high resolutions in mind.
20161222 19:23:13< Yaiyan> ah, aight
20161222 19:23:35< Yaiyan> The biggest nuisance is the map not reaching the edges of the screen on a tonne of scenarios
20161222 19:23:59< aeth> You'll probably also notice performance implications with large battles because it will be rendering more units, potentially with idle and even standing animations, than anyone expects to ever see.
20161222 19:23:59< Yaiyan> A wooden background like on the menu screen would look much better than the current grey there I feel, but it's not really that bad
20161222 19:24:04< Yaiyan> hmm
20161222 19:24:06< aeth> Fill a map with fencers and see what happens.
20161222 19:24:08< Yaiyan> I should try northern rebirth
20161222 19:24:46< Yaiyan> SDL2 uses the gpu though, no?
20161222 19:25:00< aeth> Wesnoth is very CPU-dependent.
20161222 19:25:17< Yaiyan> oh, fair enough
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20161222 19:25:33< aeth> Otherwise it would probably be easy to just 2x scale everything for 4k or something.
20161222 19:25:36< Yaiyan> I assumed the move to SDL2 would mean it would be more GPU dependent
20161222 19:26:13< aeth> Well, strategy games tend to use a lot of CPU anyway, but I think even the rendering is very CPU dependent still
20161222 19:28:31< Yaiyan> Where's the wiki page for creating a new translation gone, by the way?
20161222 19:28:33< Yaiyan> Struggling to find it
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20161222 19:29:42< aeth> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothTranslations
20161222 19:29:50< aeth> possibly
20161222 19:32:12< aeth> The wiki is a disorganized mess. I used to (try to) organize it quite a few years ago, but I quit when they added ads to it. Interestingly, it looks like the only thing being blocked by ublock origin there is Google Analytics so I guess they removed ads and I never noticed.
20161222 19:32:41< Yaiyan> The wiki had ads for a while?
20161222 19:32:50< Yaiyan> Can't say I ever remember that, but if you remember so :P
20161222 19:32:55< aeth> It was years ago
20161222 19:33:51< aeth> 2011? 2012?
20161222 19:35:06< aeth> All I know is I could never really do much anyway because I was always blocking spammers who then proceded to overrun the wiki when I quit. It looks like they finally added a way to block them.
20161222 19:39:02< aeth> I wonder if some are still on the wiki. They just created user profile pages like [[User:Foo]] with nonsense prose and then iirc days later added in spam links
20161222 19:40:02< aeth> Like this one: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:LintbkJ48
20161222 19:40:09< aeth> from 2013
20161222 19:40:31< Yaiyan> Sounds a right pain
20161222 19:44:43< aeth> I think that's the last one. Someone must have missed it
20161222 19:44:50< aeth> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&search=http&fulltext=Search&ns2=1&profile=advanced
20161222 19:45:06< aeth> this is probably the easiest way to spot them and I don't see any now (I just deleted that spam user page)
20161222 19:46:41< edaq> has anyone had trouble with wesnoth and screen resizing here?
20161222 19:47:29< edaq> I noticed a weird (but insignificant) issue with the wesnoth window
20161222 19:47:38< edaq> when you use a linux window manager like i3
20161222 19:47:57< edaq> and you open a new window it automatically resizes the other window to half the screen
20161222 19:47:59< aeth> Ah, it looks like they finally stopped it in February of this year, probably 5 years after I asked for a way to stop it so that I could actually organize the wiki instead of block the spammers every time I was on the wiki. https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=43815
20161222 19:48:18< aeth> s/block/blocking/
20161222 19:48:30< edaq> when you resize it to full screen, the mouse cannot click the half that was covered by the other window
20161222 19:48:47< edaq> (even though the wesnoth has been fullscreened again)
20161222 19:49:03< edaq> it isnt a major problem, just reload or restart
20161222 19:49:16< edaq> just curious if anyone here noticed it?
20161222 19:49:23< aeth> I'm not sure why Wesnoth is even resizable. That stuff always causes problems in games afaik.
20161222 19:49:35< edaq> I thought so
20161222 19:49:38< aeth> And yes, the resizing menu bug is quite old
20161222 19:49:42< aeth> I just never resize Wesnoth
20161222 19:49:55< edaq> my linux workstation likes to resize things
20161222 19:50:04< edaq> (bad if in the middle of a game)
20161222 19:50:17< aeth> I think that bug has always been there, even in e.g. 2008
20161222 19:50:27< edaq> did fix it with editing the .rc wm file
20161222 19:50:31< edaq> (stops resizing)
20161222 19:51:02< edaq> ofc that is more of a "work around" though
20161222 19:51:16< edaq> anyway thanks for responding aeth 
20161222 19:52:12< celticminstrel> [Dec 22@2:19:58pm] aeth: Wesnoth doesn't go well with 4k, no. It doesn't scale, so the higher your resolution, the smaller everything is.
20161222 19:52:13< celticminstrel> For me that'd kinda be the point of making it bigger. If it scaled, why would I bother? Making it bigger means I can see more at once.
20161222 19:52:14< celticminstrel> [Dec 22@2:24:47pm] Yaiyan: SDL2 uses the gpu though, no?
20161222 19:52:14< celticminstrel> Only if told to. Wesnoth doesn't tell it to. (Yet.)
20161222 19:52:17< aeth> The easiest fix would be to tell SDL to not make the window resizable, but that doesn't work with some window managers anyway afaik.
20161222 19:52:32< Yaiyan> celticminstrel, ah, right cheers
20161222 19:52:43< aeth> celticminstrel: the problem is eventually you hit a limit of zoomed outedness
20161222 19:52:59< aeth> celticminstrel: so imo 4k should default at 2x zoomed in, even though you can losslessly zoom in to 1x zoom
20161222 19:53:02< aeth> etc
20161222 19:53:14< edaq> you could use an additional program like xmag over it
20161222 19:53:18< Yaiyan> Even on a 24" 4k screen, it looks fine not zoomed out, to be fair
20161222 19:53:23< edaq> (modified to allow clicking through it ofc)
20161222 19:53:24< Yaiyan> s/out/in/
20161222 19:53:25< aeth> celticminstrel: not every map is huge, and 1080p seems to comfortably fit most if not all of a map for msot MP maps
20161222 19:53:32< aeth> s/msot/most/
20161222 19:53:47< edaq> I had to use xmag with one of my colonization games
20161222 19:53:49< Yaiyan> And you can always change the resolution in the settings
20161222 19:54:13< celticminstrel> Shrug!
20161222 19:54:56< aeth> Yaiyan: Game menus and game views should scale independently imo because the DPI of a screen is unknown. Is it 30 inch or 12? Resolution isn't the only information. Right now, Wesnoth scales the view but not the GUI
20161222 19:55:50< aeth> Yaiyan: If I have a 27 inch 4k screen, I'll probably be fine with Wesnoth as it is. If I got a 4k laptop, everything would be far too tiny.
20161222 19:55:59< Yaiyan> yeah
20161222 19:56:07< Yaiyan> Makes it difficult to have a general rule, though
20161222 19:56:26< aeth> That's why you'd just have scaling in the preferences.
20161222 19:57:10< aeth> I think it usually works like this: Assuming fullscreen, the "resolution" is the default *game* view, and then there would be a separate "interface scaling" option. Windowed would be a bit more complicated.
20161222 19:57:58< aeth> Although in a strategy game like Wesnoth that wouldn't be ideal because you'd want to zoom in and out, and so you'd want the game view to be at max resolution. It's not like it's GPU-intensive anyway so it's not really saving FPS
20161222 19:58:22< aeth> So you'd probably want to be able to set interface scaling and default map zoom.
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20161222 19:59:21< aeth> It would be better if it was more than just a slider, though. Something like an "adaptive" checkbox as the default that would e.g. zoom 2x by default with 4k, but 1x by default for most things, and maybe even zoom 0.5x or something for tiny screens by default
20161222 19:59:35< aeth> but DPI is more of an issue than resolution so that wouldn't work
20161222 19:59:53< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, Re. "A wooden background like on the menu screen would look much better than the current grey there I feel, but it's not really that bad": The actually experimented with one back in version 1.4 apparently: https://www.wesnoth.org/images/sshots/wesnoth-1.3.4-c.jpg
20161222 20:00:06< Yaiyan> Oh huh, interesting
20161222 20:00:17< Yaiyan> 1.4 was back when the game started looking so much better, I remember
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20161222 20:00:18< aeth> DeFender1031: it does, in fact, look better
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20161222 20:02:25< aeth> DeFender1031: Wesnoth is very ugly when you zoom out to 5% or something (you have to do this in 1.12 because you can't zoom out that far in 1.13 even though that means you can no longer see all of very large maps)
20161222 20:02:42< DeFender1031> aeth, I dunno, to me it kinda just looks like the grass and sand and stuff is all just sitting on a giant wooden table. I feel like it needs some kind of transition between the terrains and the wood.
20161222 20:03:01< aeth> DeFender1031: right, obviously you want to keep the border hexes that were introduced at some point
20161222 20:03:39< aeth> but look at a tiny map like Isar's or AuctionX in 1080p or something... when it's too small to fill the screen, it makes the game look worse imo
20161222 20:03:58< aeth> It doesn't *have* to be like that, and it is *already* an issue on 1080p if you zoom or play those tiny maps
20161222 20:04:04< DeFender1031> aeth, about the wiki, AFAIK account creation is now closed and the only way to create an account is to ask vult for one. (Which IMO makes sense for a technical wiki like this one.)
20161222 20:04:24< aeth> DeFender1031: yes. I linked to https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=43815
20161222 20:04:28< aeth> but it was at the end of a long line
20161222 20:04:36< aeth> So it's understandable to miss it
20161222 20:04:39< DeFender1031> edaq, never noticed that particular issue, no
20161222 20:04:53< edaq> interesting
20161222 20:04:59< edaq> might be mainly a linux wm thing
20161222 20:05:02< aeth> DeFender1031: do you ever resize a windowed Wesnoth? it's very noticable that it messes with the menus
20161222 20:05:13< aeth> edaq: Possibly. SDL has different backends for each OS
20161222 20:05:20< aeth> So it might be an issue with SDL's X backend
20161222 20:05:21< edaq> that sounds right
20161222 20:05:38< DeFender1031> edaq, i'm on linux.
20161222 20:05:41< edaq> every OS has different ways that graphics libs have to use
20161222 20:06:08< edaq> ah then you may not have used wesnoth and resized it and then re resized
20161222 20:06:10< aeth> DeFender1031: the old way I'd always get the bug is I'd launch Wesnoth windowed, it'd be the wrong size, I'd maximize it, and then I'd get issues with the bottom and right side of the window
20161222 20:06:31< DeFender1031> aeth, I do that occasionally. never had an issue
20161222 20:06:33< aeth> strange
20161222 20:06:34< edaq> I get it by using tiling wm and splitting the screen
20161222 20:06:44< aeth> DeFender1031: because I was getting it from 1.2 to 1.12
20161222 20:06:52< edaq> cant access half the board after I do that
20161222 20:07:05< aeth> edaq: generally I don't tile games, I just give them the left monitor
20161222 20:07:14< edaq> ah
20161222 20:07:18< aeth> edaq: quite a few games don't expect to be resized at all
20161222 20:07:21< edaq> i3 takes over all monitors
20161222 20:07:32< edaq> (its kind of a general purpose one)
20161222 20:07:45< aeth> edaq: stumpwm does take over monitors too, but it doesn't have an issue with fullscreen apps on either one
20161222 20:08:04< aeth> and I can e.g. fullscreen a YouTube video on my right monitor even if Firefox was taking up 2/3 of the horizontal space, and have no issues
20161222 20:08:19< edaq> could be just me, but when you open a new application it automatically tiles it for you
20161222 20:08:25< aeth> and I can launch fullscreen stuff from Steam (but I do have an issue with steam big picture, last I checked)
20161222 20:08:28< DeFender1031> ignoring for a second programs that make stuff smaller, does 4k REALLY provide any more clarity than 1080p? I'm pretty sure there's a limit to human visual acuity.
20161222 20:08:45< edaq> so if you use wesnoth in non-fullscreen you have to re-size it to large again
20161222 20:08:55< aeth> edaq: stumpwm works basically like emacs. It doesn't tile automatically, you have the full monitor to yourself and then you split it, just like emacs
20161222 20:09:10< edaq> ah
20161222 20:09:28< aeth> The only thing it does differently is autoresize when closing a pane, which is actually quite useful because then you can get a reliable 2/3 width and 1/3 width by having |_|_|___| and then closing the middle one
20161222 20:09:36< edaq> I went to i3 from twm because it was almost entirely keyboard controlled
20161222 20:10:04< aeth> 2/3 1920 is 1280 which is very useful because then I can get a nicely sized firefox
20161222 20:10:06< DeFender1031> they also ought to make modern screens report their DPI in addition to their resolution (actually, they may do that already) and wesnoth should base some of its calculations on that
20161222 20:10:16< edaq> is stumpwm keyboard hot key controlled, and is it fast?
20161222 20:10:24< aeth> any smaller than 1280 and you start to get mobile sites, any larger than 1280 and old websites (like Wikipedia!) that don't set a max width are unreadable
20161222 20:10:59< DeFender1031> aeth, i have no issue with the current "off map" filler.
20161222 20:11:00< aeth> edaq: stumpwm is basically a literal emacs window manager, except it uses Common Lisp (which is ahead of time compiled) instead of the really weak bytecode-compiled elisp language
20161222 20:11:15< Yaiyan> Oh wow, just checked wikipedia on 4k, unscaled
20161222 20:11:17< edaq> interesting
20161222 20:11:18< Yaiyan> That don't look great
20161222 20:11:20< aeth> It behaves very similarly to emacs, and yes, that means it's all keyboard controlled and usually works based on key chords
20161222 20:11:36< aeth> e.g. I bind it to super+z instead of the default ctrl+t and then it works a lot like emacs
20161222 20:11:38< DeFender1031> aeth, must have missed the forum link the first time.
20161222 20:11:43< edaq> I will have to look at installing it
20161222 20:11:46< aeth> e.g. S-z S or S-z s to split
20161222 20:11:46< DeFender1031> (yes, i'm still trying to catch up on the convo)
20161222 20:12:05< edaq> hm i3 is similar to that
20161222 20:12:14< edaq> super + arrow to move windows
20161222 20:12:19< edaq> super shift arrow
20161222 20:12:23< aeth> edaq: the main issue is (1) I have to compile it myself because it's not in Fedora's repositories and (2) it requires a Common Lisp (preferably SBCL because it's by far the fastest) and (3) if you do use SBCL, it does take up RAM
20161222 20:12:25< edaq> (moves the window itself)
20161222 20:12:30< aeth> edaq: and yeah moving windows is just like that
20161222 20:12:33< edaq> hm
20161222 20:12:35< aeth> I do super+z and then arrow
20161222 20:12:37< edaq> interesting
20161222 20:12:41< aeth> oh sorry, alt+arrow
20161222 20:12:59< edaq> sounds like the keybinds are rather similar
20161222 20:13:28< DeFender1031> edaq, i'm on KDM for my display manager.
20161222 20:13:33< edaq> i3 uses less than 1% cpu and less than 10mb of ram usually
20161222 20:13:46< edaq> ah
20161222 20:13:52< edaq> I used to use KDE and GNOME2
20161222 20:13:59< edaq> (too high resource)
20161222 20:14:02< aeth> the main downside is that it's not as light on the RAM because it is packed with a full Lisp because it models itself on emacs (in fact emacs is just <whatever hotkey you use> followed by e)
20161222 20:14:13< aeth> right now it looks like it's using 49 MB RAM
20161222 20:14:22< edaq> nice
20161222 20:14:24< aeth> That's less than I thought but it's also been up all day so idk what it is fresh
20161222 20:14:25< edaq> not bad
20161222 20:14:31< DeFender1031> meh, i just upgraded to 32GB of RAM. I hardly care.
20161222 20:14:34< aeth> edaq: I was actually expecting 80 or so
20161222 20:14:39< edaq> hm
20161222 20:14:48< aeth> SBCL itself when I launch a REPL from emacs is around 80
20161222 20:14:48< edaq> still good compared to unity
20161222 20:14:54< aeth> so I guess stumpwm uses something like a tree shaker or something
20161222 20:15:06< aeth> anyway < 100 MB is usually my bloat rule because then it's eclipsed by the browser's 400-500
20161222 20:15:08< edaq> twm had a 10 ish limit also
20161222 20:15:15< edaq> yeah that is true
20161222 20:15:32< edaq> ofc if you are really stretching your resources you want all the power you can get
20161222 20:16:11< DeFender1031> no one answered my question about 4k
20161222 20:16:24< DeFender1031> does it really provide anything visually?
20161222 20:16:29< aeth> DeFender1031: yes.
20161222 20:16:37< aeth> DeFender1031: if you use tiny fonts like I do you can finally turn off anti-aliasing
20161222 20:16:56< aeth> my terminal and emacs fonts would be barely readable without anti-aliasing
20161222 20:17:00< Yaiyan> 1080->4k is like SD->HD
20161222 20:17:27< aeth> edaq: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm
20161222 20:17:32< DeFender1031> okay... so where's the limit? at what DPI does it become just not visibly different to the human eye?
20161222 20:17:39< edaq> ty for the link aeth 
20161222 20:17:43< edaq> opening.....
20161222 20:18:03< aeth> I would recommend SBCL because I do some Lisp programming and it's way, way ahead of most of the rest
20161222 20:18:06< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, mathematically of course, but my point is that at a certain point, the human eye is no longer sensitive enough to notice a difference
20161222 20:18:16< Yaiyan> I mean, in terms of how you notice it :P
20161222 20:18:34< Yaiyan> I checked out a 4k video on my pc for the first time the other day, and the clarity is way beyond anything I've seen before
20161222 20:18:36< aeth> edaq: the one default I don't like in stumpwm is that click to focus isn't a thing by default, and it always gets me when I'm using a web browser because those things run by mouse, mostly
20161222 20:18:47< edaq> ah
20161222 20:18:49< Yaiyan> Partly a better bitrate, sure, but
20161222 20:18:52< edaq> i3 did that also
20161222 20:19:03< edaq> had to set the setting for focus on mouse over
20161222 20:19:21< aeth> my configuration is literally just (setf *mouse-focus-policy* :click) and (set-prefix-key (kbd "s-z"))
20161222 20:19:47< aeth> (if you use emacs, it's somewhat familiar to you even though it's a different Lisp... it really is the emacs of tiling window managers)
20161222 20:20:53< aeth> DeFender1031: It depends on your viewing distance and the dpi of the screen. If it's a large screen or if it's really close to you, 16k might not be enough. e.g. VR
20161222 20:21:15< DeFender1031> Yaiyan, so then the question is, is 4k the limit? does 4k->8k make a noticeable difference? does 8-16? (Also, like aeth said, the main thing here is less the resolution than the DPI)
20161222 20:21:17< aeth> DeFender1031: the real goal of high resolution displays is imo to not need anti-aliasing for text, games, etc.
20161222 20:21:31< aeth> so it's really at what point you don't need AA
20161222 20:21:52< DeFender1031> aeth, why does antialiasing bother you?
20161222 20:21:57< Yaiyan> DeFender1031, well, that depends on the size of your display
20161222 20:22:14< aeth> DeFender1031: it makes everything a bit fuzzy (or a lot fuzzy, depending on the method)
20161222 20:22:14< Yaiyan> And it's not a matter of antialiasing, more than if you need antialiasing then you've not hit the limit :P
20161222 20:22:40< DeFender1031> aeth, I dunno, things tent to hurt my eyes when they're too sharp
20161222 20:22:48< aeth> DeFender1031: and e.g. I can read the tiny text on my phone screen more clearly than larger apparent text on my 24" 1080p screen
20161222 20:23:10< Yaiyan> I definitely don't think 4k@24" is the limit of improvement
20161222 20:25:27< aeth> DeFender1031: 8k is the planned limit, but I don't think 8k is the real limit
20161222 20:25:47< aeth> I think VR, for instance, could benefit from more
20161222 20:26:32< aeth> DeFender1031: also if you have a 3D display (e.g. a fancy game HUD, or a virtual screen in VR) and text is at an angle, it makes the issues worse
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20161222 20:34:00< aeth> DeFender1031: just make a simple 3D "hello world" in OpenGL and make straight lines, e.g. a cube or something, but don't use MSAA and you can see the jagged edges for the lines that don't line up perfectly with the pixels and it's very noticable. Then turn on MSAA (it's a simple flag in either OpenGL or SDL, I don't remember which) and they're gone
20161222 20:34:51< DeFender1031> aeth, simple for someone who knows OpenGL... I don't.
20161222 20:34:59< aeth> It's in GL
20161222 20:35:53< DeFender1031> huh?
20161222 20:36:13< aeth> oh, no wait, it's in SDL whoops
20161222 20:36:23< aeth> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_GL_SetAttribute
20161222 20:37:27< aeth> SDL_GL_SetAttribute(SDL_GL_MULTISAMPLESAMPLES, 16); // or something
20161222 20:37:30< aeth> It makes a huge difference.
20161222 20:37:57< aeth> DeFender1031: My point is, anti-aliasing shouldn't be a thing. It's a DPI limitation, not a real issue.
20161222 20:39:05< DeFender1031> fair enough
20161222 20:39:07< aeth> DeFender1031: you get the same thing with GIMP and the pencil tool set to size 1 drawing a diagonal line while holding shift
20161222 20:39:16< aeth> it's just that you can't automagically get rid of the jaggedness of that line
20161222 20:39:23< DeFender1031> hmm
20161222 20:39:40< DeFender1031> though, that would still be true of a 1-pixel line in a higher res
20161222 20:39:59< DeFender1031> the only difference is that what WAS a 1-pixel line is now a 4-pixel line
20161222 20:40:05< DeFender1031> (for the same physical size)
20161222 20:40:10< aeth> right
20161222 20:40:51< DeFender1031> in practice though, I feel like people are just going to end up making use of the extra resolution to pack more graphics into a smaller area, rather than making their graphics 4x the size.
20161222 20:40:53< aeth> all it means is that instead of having fuzzy pixels of different colors to hide that it's a line that doesn't align with the monitor's pixel grid you have a line that's e.g. mostly but not always 4 pixels thick
20161222 20:41:35< aeth> DeFender1031: but you can't guarantee the DPI, which means you have interface scaling, which means it for "free" benefits people with vision problems who can't read the tiny font that was going to be used anyway if everyone stayed at 1080p
20161222 20:41:52< aeth> so imo it's as a whole a good thing, as long as there actually is interface scaling
20161222 20:42:09< DeFender1031> fair.
20161222 20:43:00< aeth> and everyone has vision problems if they live long enough
20161222 20:44:38< DeFender1031> true that
20161222 20:44:43< aeth> when people are playing their mid-2000s games in 2070 they'll be mad at how tiny everything is
20161222 20:45:00< aeth> the mid-2010s games will hopefully not have that issue because scaling is more common... and especially not the mid-2020s ones
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20161222 21:30:52< Kwandulin> Did you ever play through Ashen Hearts, zookeeper? I remember you giving some remarks about typos in the first scenario
20161222 21:32:47< zookeeper> sadly, no
20161222 21:32:54< zookeeper> i don't remember how many scenarios i did
20161222 21:32:59< zookeeper> probably just a few
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20161222 22:25:45< Yaiyan> So if I've created a new po, how do I use it ingame?
20161222 22:26:05< Yaiyan> I've created the languages/xyz.cfg file, but it just tells me setlocale() failed for xyz
20161222 22:41:54< celticminstrel> Wesnoth 1.12 can't use po.
20161222 22:42:01< Yaiyan> I'm running in svn
20161222 22:42:06< celticminstrel> Ah.
20161222 22:42:12< celticminstrel> IIRC...
20161222 22:42:15< Yaiyan> But uh yeah, I haven't put the po file anywhere
20161222 22:42:35< Yaiyan> I put the mo file in the po/wesnoth folder
20161222 22:42:41< Yaiyan> oh, my bad, I did put the po file there
20161222 22:42:56< celticminstrel> If it's not a mainliny po, then your [textdomain] needs to specify a path to the directory full of po files, I think.
20161222 22:43:06< celticminstrel> ^mainline
20161222 22:43:28< Yaiyan> mainline meaning one for the main game?
20161222 22:43:35< Yaiyan> As opposed to a currently existing one
20161222 22:43:44< celticminstrel> Mainline meaning not an addon.
20161222 22:43:54< Yaiyan> Right, yeah
20161222 22:44:05< Yaiyan> Not an addon 
20161222 22:44:58< celticminstrel> Then slot it into the po/ directory, and run "scons translations" to generate the mo file in the correct place.
20161222 22:46:57< Yaiyan> ah, so I need a skeleton po for all the mainline campaigns too, if I run that command
20161222 22:48:10< celticminstrel> I thought you said you were using git master.
20161222 22:48:17< Yaiyan> Yeah
20161222 22:48:35< Yaiyan> scons translations is complaining po/wesnoth-ai/xyz.po not found
20161222 22:48:56< celticminstrel> The po/ directory is part of the git repository...
20161222 22:49:08< Yaiyan> Right
20161222 22:49:35< celticminstrel> Are you trying to add a new language?
20161222 22:49:38< Yaiyan> Yeah
20161222 22:49:58< celticminstrel> Ah okay, then I guess you might need a po for every domain.
20161222 22:50:10< celticminstrel> (What language, out of curiosity?)
20161222 22:50:27< Yaiyan> Welsh, but mostly playing around with it for now
20161222 22:50:41< Yaiyan> I'm not a native, nor fluent speaker, but was hoping that starting something off might encourage others to join in :P
20161222 22:50:45< celticminstrel> Ah.
20161222 22:50:54< Yaiyan> hmm, I'll try that then
20161222 22:52:02 * celticminstrel would be interested in a fr_CA translation too.
20161222 22:52:23< Yaiyan> Is it that dramatically different to normal french?
20161222 22:52:29< Yaiyan> (I presume that's canadian french)
20161222 22:53:11< celticminstrel> Though I'm not sure how much it would differ from fr_FR; there are a quite a few vocabulary differences, but many of them would be irrelevant to Wesnoth. That said, I don't know just how different it is.
20161222 22:54:14< Yaiyan> ah, yeah
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20161222 22:54:35< Yaiyan> I've often been meaning to compare Australian/Canadian/British translations with eachother
20161222 22:56:18< celticminstrel> en_UK and en_US are pretty different; en_CA would be sorta a mix of the two (but I don't think there is one?).
20161222 22:56:28< Yaiyan> Not for wesnoth, there isn't, nah
20161222 22:56:40< celticminstrel> No idea what'd need to be different for en_AU.
20161222 22:56:50< Yaiyan> I do remember once being in a touristy part of Canada and seeing colour spelt colo(u)r
20161222 22:56:52< celticminstrel> Wait, it's en_GB, right?
20161222 22:56:56< Yaiyan> Yeah
20161222 22:57:01< celticminstrel> ...with the parentheses?
20161222 22:57:13< Yaiyan> Australia has some minor vocab differences, but nothing major, although I've noticed some games split them apart
20161222 22:57:15< Yaiyan> Yeah...
20161222 22:57:19< Yaiyan> On a sign, too
20161222 22:57:50< celticminstrel> Weird.
20161222 22:58:06< celticminstrel> I think normally it's spelled with the U, but the two spellings are in free variation here.
20161222 22:58:10< Yaiyan> Even after running scons translations, and rerunning make, it's still telling me that setlocale() failed
20161222 22:58:25< celticminstrel> I dunno what that means.
20161222 22:58:42< Yaiyan> It was in a very touristy part of BC, which might be part of why they did that
20161222 22:58:57< celticminstrel> You can actually get the game to load the po directly by putting it in translations/ but with the directory structure of po/.
20161222 22:59:41< Yaiyan> By putting the mo's into LC_MESSAGES, you mean?
20161222 23:00:19< Yaiyan> Those are all in there, which is the weirder part :/
20161222 23:00:23< Yaiyan> I'm sure I'm missing something obvious
20161222 23:01:47< Yaiyan> Oh, that's interesting
20161222 23:02:01< Yaiyan> Running make again didn't do anything bar moving the .mo's to translations, as far as I can tell
20161222 23:02:15< Yaiyan> Gonna try a make clean, in case that changes anything
20161222 23:34:49< Yaiyan> ok, so I've got to the point where it no longer gives me any errors when choosing the language
20161222 23:35:04< Yaiyan> However, the (albeit one) string I've translated, isn't appearing as translated when I choose the new language
20161222 23:35:52< Yaiyan> I've pressed f5, so presumably that means the cache should be refreshed, and grep -r "Ymgyrchoedd" * tells me the word is in the .mo file created by scons translations
20161222 23:51:12< Yaiyan> Aha, got it all working now =)
20161222 23:54:12< Yaiyan> It's a shame there's no hints as to how Yes/No are used
20161222 23:54:19 * Yaiyan ponders checking how irish and scottish handled those words
--- Log closed Fri Dec 23 00:00:16 2016