--- Log opened Tue Mar 14 00:00:06 2017
20170314 00:11:44< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 4e92eb1b5502 / data/gui/macros/_initial.cfg src/font/standard_colors.cpp: Second small tweak to standard "gold" color (fixup faaa412d) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4e92eb1b5502059281741adbb7b319660866d908
20170314 00:11:47< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 42e2486d8a83 / images/dialogs/ (selection-background-fancy.png selection-background.png): Forgot to commit image changes with 441b0f76 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/42e2486d8a83bdebcb23bee2b0e67f7a774f7e40
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20170314 00:45:13< vultraz_iOS> holy crap
20170314 00:45:23< vultraz_iOS> when did we have map labels with tooltips O_O
20170314 00:49:33 * vultraz_iOS pings celticminstrel
20170314 00:52:27< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 15f8ac3c8089 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Fixed error in [modify_side] shroud_data= https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/15f8ac3c8089cfbb0de8e640b54fd2617bf85418
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20170314 01:07:30< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: What are you talking about?
20170314 01:07:41< vultraz_iOS> map labels can have tooltips
20170314 01:07:48< vultraz_iOS> apparently 
20170314 01:07:59< celticminstrel> I had no idea?
20170314 01:08:07< vultraz_iOS> me neither
20170314 01:08:13< vultraz_iOS> but that's not why i pinged you
20170314 01:08:16< vultraz_iOS> I'm looking at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?24712
20170314 01:09:12< vultraz_iOS> it can be fixed by removing the call to select_hex in intf_deselect_hex
20170314 01:10:52-!- Greg-Boggs [~greg_bogg@173.240.241.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20170314 01:12:09< vultraz_iOS> right now, what happens is if you have a select event that triggers a narrator message, the unit will get deselected
20170314 01:12:22< vultraz_iOS> BUT their reach will still be highlighted
20170314 01:15:25< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: is this fix acceptable 
20170314 01:30:45< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: and isn't this fixed? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?25558
20170314 01:44:31-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20170314 01:53:23< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0becb66a8c09 / src/scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp: Don't call select_hex when deselecting a hex (fixes bug #24712) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0becb66a8c09bbf0935b5b58739e38c3b196f814
20170314 01:53:26< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 6c994a5a7317 / src/ (display.cpp display.hpp): Properly validate and set index when calling set_zoom with value https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/6c994a5a73172160ec069cd19d10d6861a1a09de
20170314 01:58:15< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: can this be marked as invalid? https://gna.org/bugs/?25390
20170314 02:07:01< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: I'm unsure if the fix you describe can be considered acceptable.
20170314 02:07:33< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 812c9d9607a4 / data/gui/window/mp_join_game.cfg: MP Join Game: use 'Leave' instead of 'Cancel' for exit button https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/812c9d9607a48c540f2e73d8558193a2bba4846a
20170314 02:07:47< celticminstrel> I just flagged the two issues you linked.
20170314 02:08:29< vultraz_iOS> good, good
20170314 02:08:55< vultraz_iOS> if the message fix thing is unacceptable, i need a better one
20170314 02:09:08< celticminstrel> "That invites a potential fix, assuming there's some way in Lua to determine whether the speaker is currently selected. Does anyone know of something like that?"
20170314 02:09:55< vultraz_iOS> I do not
20170314 02:10:03< vultraz_iOS> and what would that do?
20170314 02:10:08< celticminstrel> IOW, add that if it doesn't already exist, and use it in the [message] implementation to remember whether the unit was previously selected.
20170314 02:10:16< vultraz_iOS> in any non-narraror message, the speaker is selected
20170314 02:10:38< vultraz_iOS> or are you saying manually selected
20170314 02:10:41< celticminstrel> And then only deselect it if it wasn't selected beforehand.
20170314 02:11:16< vultraz_iOS> is there something glaringly wrong with my fix?
20170314 02:11:19< celticminstrel> Actually, I think there's a Lua API function to get the currently selected unit, isn't there?
20170314 02:11:21< celticminstrel> Uhhh.
20170314 02:11:34< celticminstrel> I'd have to likk at intf_whatever to tell, just a second.
20170314 02:11:41< celticminstrel> ^look
20170314 02:17:20< celticminstrel> So, I'm not entirely sure if it's acceptable.
20170314 02:17:32< celticminstrel> There does need to be a way from Lua to select any currently selected unit.
20170314 02:17:54< celticminstrel> And the line you removed is what does that, right?
20170314 02:18:50< celticminstrel> However, it might be possible to get the same effect somehow using wesnoth.select_unit.
20170314 02:19:03-!- gfgtdf_ [~chatzilla@x4e363871.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20170314 02:19:04< celticminstrel> I'm not entirely sure how that would be achieved, though, given that it takes a location.
20170314 02:19:26< celticminstrel> Would it mean you have to pass a location that has no unit on it? That's not exactly ideal.
20170314 02:19:50< vultraz_iOS> this change is in *de*select unit
20170314 02:19:57< celticminstrel> [Mar 13@10:17:32pm] celticminstrel: There does need to be a way from Lua to select any currently selected unit.
20170314 02:19:57< celticminstrel> ^deselect
20170314 02:20:07< celticminstrel> No, it's in deselect hex. :P
20170314 02:20:31< celticminstrel> Does your comment stem from the typo I just corrected, though?
20170314 02:21:20-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e363d86.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20170314 02:21:21< vultraz_iOS> yes
20170314 02:21:28-!- gfgtdf_ is now known as gfgtdf
20170314 02:22:03< celticminstrel> So yeah, there needs to be a way to deselect the currently-selected unit.
20170314 02:24:02< celticminstrel> Admittedly, it may be a little weird for wesnoth.deselect_hex to do so, as logically that would be the reverse of highlight_hex which has nothing to do with units.
20170314 02:25:56< celticminstrel> Wasn't null_location some high large negative coordinates?
20170314 02:26:42< celticminstrel> Supposing wesnoth.select_unit doesn't currently allow a general way of deselecting the unit, this suggests a way to ensure it does - remove the "not on board" error message.
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20170314 02:27:48< vultraz_iOS> null_location is a static default-constructed map_location object
20170314 02:27:54< celticminstrel> Yes, I know.
20170314 02:27:56< vultraz_iOS> the default ctor is -1000, -1000
20170314 02:28:00< celticminstrel> Can you test if wesnoth.select_unit can deselect the current unit?
20170314 02:30:42< vultraz_iOS> im busy with something else right now
20170314 02:41:30< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 420db4d7d083 / src/game_initialization/ (lobby_info.cpp lobby_info.hpp): Lobby Info: implement get_user function, which for some reason has had no implem https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/420db4d7d083bbcca2f441441c9b062f624edd0d
20170314 02:50:53< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 939ad68ab83b / src/game_initialization/lobby_info.cpp: Fixup 420db4d because I'm an idiot who doesn't build before pushing https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/939ad68ab83b55b536f98ff19ef91f79f1014ec3
20170314 03:23:00< vultraz_iOS> gah, my experiment's not working!
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20170314 03:26:36< irker611> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master f1155f34d7f4 / src/game_initialization/connect_engine.hpp: Connect Engine: added getter for campaign info https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f1155f34d7f40cef0c7d19b23f058018f9151ea7
20170314 03:29:05< celticminstrel> Heh.
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20170314 03:45:37 * vultraz_iOS pings loonycyborg
20170314 03:46:04 * celticminstrel pongs vultraz_iOS.
20170314 03:46:41< vultraz_iOS> well, I suppose you're relevant to
20170314 03:46:42< vultraz_iOS> o
20170314 03:46:47< celticminstrel> I am?
20170314 03:46:54< vultraz_iOS> I'm pondering the lobby update timer
20170314 03:47:20< celticminstrel> Ideally it wouldn't be a timer but rather something triggered by the iostreams library in response to data becoming available.
20170314 03:47:25< vultraz_iOS> yes
20170314 03:47:36< celticminstrel> I don't know how to do that though. I haven't used Boost.Asio at all.
20170314 03:47:40< vultraz_iOS> and I'm thinking we might need to unify the handling of network data between these three dialogs
20170314 03:47:48< vultraz_iOS> since I've run into a problem
20170314 03:47:52< celticminstrel> I think I kinda tried to use it a little at one point and didn't get very far.
20170314 03:48:02< vultraz_iOS> I want to show user relations in the staging/join dialogs too
20170314 03:48:07< vultraz_iOS> right now it's just names
20170314 03:48:13< vultraz_iOS> so, where is that info?
20170314 03:48:27< vultraz_iOS> stored in lobby_info
20170314 03:48:39< vultraz_iOS> these dialogs have lobby_info, great
20170314 03:48:49< vultraz_iOS> but, there's a problem
20170314 03:49:01< vultraz_iOS> the users list there is only updated in the lobby
20170314 03:49:15< vultraz_iOS> meaning a new user who joins doesn't have an entry :/
20170314 03:50:11< celticminstrel> Probably better to talk to loonycyborg then. This might also need server-side updates, too.
20170314 03:50:43< celticminstrel> Not entirely sure, mind you. If the server has some "give me information on user X" function, you could just make the client use that for users who join the game.
20170314 03:50:57 * celticminstrel also doesn't know what you mean by user releations.
20170314 03:51:25< vultraz_iOS> ie, friend
20170314 03:51:39< celticminstrel> I thought that info was stored client-side?
20170314 03:51:51< vultraz_iOS> eh, that's also true..
20170314 03:51:58< celticminstrel> Or do you mean "is X a friend of Y" rather than "is X a friend of me"?
20170314 03:52:11< vultraz_iOS> no, latter
20170314 03:52:12< vultraz_iOS> hmm
20170314 03:52:30< celticminstrel> Then it you should be able to use something in the preferences namespace, right?
20170314 03:53:08< vultraz_iOS> true, true
20170314 03:53:17< celticminstrel> ...
20170314 03:53:19< celticminstrel> ^-it
20170314 03:55:15< vultraz_iOS> where the hell is the leader icon
20170314 03:55:22< vultraz_iOS> crown, that is
20170314 03:55:35< vultraz_iOS> oh here
20170314 03:55:36< celticminstrel> In images/ maybe?
20170314 03:55:37< vultraz_iOS> leader-crown.png
20170314 04:06:05< vultraz_iOS> agh
20170314 04:06:10< vultraz_iOS> is_host is local...
20170314 04:06:54< vultraz_iOS> hmmm
20170314 04:06:56< vultraz_iOS> ponder ponder
20170314 04:07:51< celticminstrel> If you ponder to hard you might fall in a pond.
20170314 04:09:32< vultraz_iOS> there's a server is_owner method but that's... not something I can use
20170314 04:09:34< vultraz_iOS> blag
20170314 04:09:44 * vultraz_iOS pings loonycyborg again
20170314 04:10:27< vultraz_iOS> I suppose a user_info field could be set too...
20170314 04:10:29< vultraz_iOS> but..
20170314 04:10:29< vultraz_iOS> eh..
20170314 04:10:32< vultraz_iOS> blagh
20170314 04:10:42< vultraz_iOS> this is what happens when too much is handled clientside instead of server-side
20170314 04:11:45< vultraz_iOS> every client has an mp_game_settings object in their game
20170314 04:12:02< vultraz_iOS> the host's machine has is_host set to true
20170314 04:12:16< vultraz_iOS> and certain commands check that flag
20170314 04:12:23< vultraz_iOS> the flag is set when creating a game
20170314 04:12:50< vultraz_iOS> I suppose I could check if the player is yourself..
20170314 04:15:32< vultraz_iOS> that's hacky, but it could work
20170314 04:16:54< vultraz_iOS> works for now
20170314 04:17:03< vultraz_iOS> I'll need to ponder a more unified data model 
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20170314 05:11:27< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#12914 (master - 420db4d : Charles Dang): The build was broken.
20170314 05:11:27< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/210805151
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20170314 05:11:44< celticminstrel> Uh-oh!
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20170314 05:26:32< vultraz_iOS> should fix in 939ad68ab83b 
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20170314 05:43:10< celticminstrel> Oh right, you did have a fixup commit in there.
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20170314 06:16:16< loonycyborg> vultraz_iOS: I'm here now
20170314 06:17:48< vultraz_iOS> loonycyborg: is there any way to get remote data on the host?
20170314 06:18:22< loonycyborg> which kind of remove data?
20170314 06:18:25< vultraz_iOS> for the mp staging dialog, I can check if name == preferences::login() to see if you are the host
20170314 06:18:46< vultraz_iOS> but for the mp join game dialog, if I want to mark the host as host, how would I check if any of the connected users are the host?
20170314 06:21:18< vultraz_iOS> the latter even just uses the scenario config
20170314 06:23:48< vultraz_iOS> loonycyborg: or, is there any way to set up the server so each game instance can keep a metadata section about all users that join and the side config that can be queried by any client?
20170314 06:24:01< vultraz_iOS> instead of everthing being client-side
20170314 06:24:03< vultraz_iOS> everything*
20170314 06:24:07< vultraz_iOS> and passing around a config
20170314 06:24:54< loonycyborg> server already knows who's the host
20170314 06:25:01< loonycyborg> naturally
20170314 06:25:30< loonycyborg> hmm
20170314 06:25:43< loonycyborg> or not
20170314 06:26:12< loonycyborg> anyway
20170314 06:26:42< loonycyborg> any direct ways of querying server something will most likely be too slow
20170314 06:27:19< loonycyborg> due to network latency
20170314 06:28:16< loonycyborg> so it's better to rely on data from structures that client and server pass to each other during joining the game
20170314 06:28:40< loonycyborg> And I don't remember much about those
20170314 06:28:43< vultraz_iOS> how do mp games exchange date quickly, then?
20170314 06:29:04< vultraz_iOS> data*
20170314 06:29:22< vultraz_iOS> I don't understand why *wesnoth* would have to worry about latency :/
20170314 06:29:37< celticminstrel> Everything on a network has to worry about latency.
20170314 06:29:47< celticminstrel> Even IRC.
20170314 06:30:05< celticminstrel> Even IRC can be laggy in certain circumstances, such as during a netsplit.
20170314 06:30:06< loonycyborg> gfgtdf worked on mp client
20170314 06:30:27< loonycyborg> he might be able to help out too
20170314 06:30:43< vultraz_iOS> the clients throw a config object around :/
20170314 06:31:20< vultraz_iOS> I suppose I could just make it write side["is_host"] = true
20170314 06:31:24< vultraz_iOS> in the host side
20170314 06:31:29< vultraz_iOS> er
20170314 06:31:42< vultraz_iOS> yeah
20170314 06:31:45< celticminstrel> Provided it's not a const config.
20170314 06:41:51< loonycyborg> vultraz_iOS: yes, extending data they exchange in wml would be simplest
20170314 06:44:35< loonycyborg> actually it does keep track of who is host in server/game.cpp
20170314 06:45:27< loonycyborg> the problem is I ported the code to asio without fully understanding stuff, and I forgot much too already
20170314 06:46:18< celticminstrel> BTW, were rooms reimplemented yet?
20170314 06:47:24< loonycyborg> nope
20170314 06:47:44< celticminstrel> :(
20170314 06:47:57< celticminstrel> Surely those kinda need to be back by 1.14?
20170314 06:48:11< vultraz_iOS> sadness :(
20170314 06:48:26< celticminstrel> BTW, about 1.14, don't we also need Steam Account login support?
20170314 06:48:40< celticminstrel> In addition to forum account login.
20170314 06:48:57< celticminstrel> Steam users could have a $ prefixed to their name or something.
20170314 06:49:39< vultraz_iOS> no idea
20170314 06:49:48< celticminstrel> So basically something like the forum_user_handler but for Steam instead of the forum.
20170314 06:49:51< vultraz_iOS> loonycyborg: is this feasible?
20170314 06:50:14< celticminstrel> Using OAuth or OpenID or whatever that thing is called.
20170314 06:50:27< loonycyborg> It should be possible
20170314 06:51:07< loonycyborg> if it works without requiring linking against proprietary libs
20170314 06:51:40< loonycyborg> that have extra conditions attached
20170314 06:51:49< vultraz_iOS> I don't know
20170314 06:52:03< vultraz_iOS> I suppose you'd need access to the API and SDK
20170314 06:52:39< celticminstrel> If it's OpenID or whatever, you shouldn't need that.
20170314 06:52:51< celticminstrel> You'd just send a request to some special URL and parse the response, IIRC.
20170314 06:53:13< loonycyborg> If it's just a REST api then it would be easier
20170314 06:53:23< celticminstrel> REST?
20170314 06:54:27< loonycyborg> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer
20170314 06:55:15< celticminstrel> Okay yeah, that sounds like exactly what I was talking about.
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20170314 07:06:45< vultraz_iOS> btw, we should somehow set it up so that a player doesn't need to reenter their steam password to join the first time
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20170314 07:07:42< loonycyborg> http://steamcommunity.com/dev/
20170314 07:10:08< loonycyborg> seems it really does use openid
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20170314 07:15:30< loonycyborg> oh btw if we auth people via steam will we also keep auth via forums?
20170314 07:16:05< loonycyborg> since same name can be used on both
20170314 07:16:17< loonycyborg> perhaps by different people even
20170314 07:21:27< celticminstrel> loonycyborg: We'd have to since some people don't use Steam. That's why I suggested a prefix for Steam users.
20170314 07:21:53< vultraz_iOS> good question
20170314 07:21:56< vultraz_iOS> I say it's possible
20170314 07:22:05< celticminstrel> BTW we should also fix the issue of plaintext passwords.
20170314 07:22:10< vultraz_iOS> we can't accommodate everyone 
20170314 07:22:12< celticminstrel> IIRC that was only in storage on the client, but still.
20170314 07:22:20< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: Why can't we?
20170314 07:23:34< vultraz_iOS> well, if he can come up with some way to do so, great
20170314 07:23:38< celticminstrel> The user metadata should probably include a field stating how they've authenticated though.
20170314 07:23:42< vultraz_iOS> but if I had to choose, I'd say Steam
20170314 07:23:46< vultraz_iOS> and drop Forums
20170314 07:23:48< celticminstrel> No.
20170314 07:23:51< celticminstrel> Absolutely not.
20170314 07:23:55< vultraz_iOS> why?
20170314 07:23:58< celticminstrel> There are people who refuse to use Steam.
20170314 07:24:01< vultraz_iOS> so?
20170314 07:24:11< celticminstrel> So you want to alienate those people?
20170314 07:24:25< vultraz_iOS> they can still play
20170314 07:24:31< celticminstrel> I don't have any particular stats, but I'd guess there's even a fair number of them.
20170314 07:24:31< vultraz_iOS> just not with a registered username
20170314 07:24:45< celticminstrel> Which is a downgrade if they currently have a registered username.
20170314 07:25:17< celticminstrel> Anyway, it's totally possible to support multiple forms of authentication, so this isn't actually an issue. We just need to do it.
20170314 07:25:39< vultraz_iOS> perhaps I'm biased, but I'd assume people who refuse steam are extreme oss adherants like e s r
20170314 07:25:50< vultraz_iOS> and I really don't care to cater to that.
20170314 07:25:51< vultraz_iOS> but again
20170314 07:25:55< vultraz_iOS> if it can be done for both
20170314 07:25:58< vultraz_iOS> by all means do so
20170314 07:26:24< celticminstrel> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people on Linux don't use Steam and don't want to use it.
20170314 07:26:34< celticminstrel> Even if they're not strict OSS adherants.
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20170314 07:28:32< vultraz_iOS> I'm simply saying if we had to choose, I'd go for Steam auth over forum auth
20170314 07:28:43< vultraz_iOS> the opposite is worse.
20170314 07:29:55< celticminstrel> I don't think that's a good choice, but it's a moot point, because we don't need to choose.
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20170314 08:28:53< pydsigner> celticminstrel: Do you know what it is that Steam actually sends for the username?
20170314 08:29:01< pydsigner> Steam names...  fluctuate
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20170314 09:03:53< loonycyborg> pydsigner: it seems there's a way to authenticate with openid that yield the steamid
20170314 09:04:26< loonycyborg> so in theory we let users authenticate users with openid and keep our any extra info in db keyed to steamid
20170314 09:04:42< loonycyborg> *authenticate themselves
20170314 09:04:54< celticminstrel> pydsigner: Probably the login name? That doesn't fluctuate.
20170314 09:05:06< celticminstrel> Or maybe the numeric user ID?
20170314 09:05:14< loonycyborg> also it seems I can't just use steamworks api in wesnoth
20170314 09:05:42< celticminstrel> Not surprised.
20170314 09:05:46< loonycyborg> because it would result in a binary that can't be distributed without violating either gpl or steamworks license
20170314 09:06:19< celticminstrel> But you don't need the SteamWorks API for authentication, right?
20170314 09:06:37< loonycyborg> I guess I could make a wrapper in separate project and distribute it under different license
20170314 09:06:40< loonycyborg> no
20170314 09:06:48< loonycyborg> openid doesn't require steamworks
20170314 09:07:05< celticminstrel> And yeah, if you wanted to use the SteamWorks API in an otherwise open-source project, I'd package it as a plugin in a separate project.
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20170314 09:11:38< loonycyborg> but openid seems to be rather complicated to use from C++ atm
20170314 09:11:59< loonycyborg> I'm not even sure which revision of that standard valve is currently using
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20170314 09:57:32< wedge009> What does registration for Wesnoth imply? Is it for MP stuff? If I wasn't already on Steam, I'd be pretty unhappy about having to register on it just to play Wesnoth... even if the aim is to get Wesnoth on to Steam.
20170314 09:58:47< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes, it's for multiplayer. And even for MP it's optional.
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20170314 09:58:58< wedge009> Optional, that might not be so bad.
20170314 09:59:47< wedge009> If one was to mandate the use of Steam for MP, though, I would hope/expect that there would be some way to migrate things from the existing system (forums?) to Steam.
20170314 09:59:52< wedge009> Instead of starting from scratch.
20170314 10:01:16< Soliton> it's just the username.
20170314 10:24:51-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20170314 10:52:11< loonycyborg> We'll have to maintain mappings from steam ids to mp server names
20170314 10:52:29< loonycyborg> and will have to make a way for users to change their names
20170314 10:53:17-!- irker611 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout]
20170314 10:53:57< loonycyborg> and somehow handle the case if forum has the same name taken
20170314 10:54:06< loonycyborg> I guess suffix is indeed a good way
20170314 10:54:38< loonycyborg> in actual lobby perhaps we don't display the suffix but show an icon or something instead
20170314 10:55:15< Soliton> you'd need to know the actual name for friend/ignore list.
20170314 10:55:37< loonycyborg> hmm actually there's another thing
20170314 10:55:50< loonycyborg> steam publicly seen names aren't guaranteed to be unique
20170314 10:55:55< loonycyborg> and people can change them
20170314 10:56:41< Soliton> we need an actual identifier for control commands etc though.
20170314 10:57:21-!- JyrkiVesterinen [~JyrkiVest@85-76-100-76-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20170314 10:57:37< Soliton> or that is all turned into gui dialogs that show the public name but know the id.
20170314 10:58:08< Soliton> still confusing if there are several people with the same public name.
20170314 11:02:05< Soliton> there's probably no way around showing the steamid in some form.
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20170314 14:00:50 * vultraz_iOS is looking for the steamworks sdk legal docs...
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20170314 14:05:11< pydsigner> vultraz_iOS: remember the wrapper shadowm linked you?
20170314 14:05:22< loonycyborg> what wrapper?
20170314 14:05:26< vultraz_iOS> vaguely
20170314 14:05:30< vultraz_iOS> what was it again/
20170314 14:05:50< loonycyborg> vultraz_iOS: https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api
20170314 14:06:17< loonycyborg> seems their docs might contain some interesting info
20170314 14:09:57< loonycyborg> shame that it requires you first to login and then to accept license agreement, meaning it's not googleable
20170314 14:10:06< loonycyborg> yet another example of dark web :P
20170314 14:11:04-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20170314 14:11:59< vultraz_iOS> oh, I was already looking at that
20170314 14:12:26< loonycyborg> https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/auth
20170314 14:12:28< vultraz_iOS> specifically, I'm looking for the part that says it's GPL-incompatible
20170314 14:12:38< loonycyborg> this part is particularly interesting
20170314 14:16:43< loonycyborg> vultraz_iOS: Actually, if we use their web api gpl issues don't apply
20170314 14:16:47< vultraz_iOS> i can't find where it says we cannot use it with apps like wesnoth
20170314 14:17:22< loonycyborg> we can use it\
20170314 14:17:31< loonycyborg> but can't distribute
20170314 14:18:01< loonycyborg> because their sdk eula won't let us give users some rights that gpl requires us to give them
20170314 14:18:41< loonycyborg> but it isn't seem to be very thought out in general atm
20170314 14:18:57< loonycyborg> their eula has anti-reverse engineering clause
20170314 14:19:07< loonycyborg> yet sdk provides full source
20170314 14:19:30< loonycyborg> and eula mentions providing full source
20170314 14:19:35< loonycyborg> what to RE here?
20170314 14:19:59< vultraz_iOS> but where does it SAY that specifically
20170314 14:21:13< vultraz_iOS> I'm looking at this https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/sdk_access_agreement
20170314 14:21:27< loonycyborg> me too
20170314 14:21:45< loonycyborg> 1.1    License Grant. Valve hereby grants Licensee a nonexclusive, royalty-free, terminable, worldwide, nontransferable license to:    
20170314 14:21:45< loonycyborg>  
20170314 14:21:45< loonycyborg> (a)    use and locally reproduce the SDK in source code form, solely to develop the Licensee Software; and
20170314 14:22:08< loonycyborg> the key here that it gives it only to licensee
20170314 14:22:13< loonycyborg> and it's non-transferable
20170314 14:23:52< loonycyborg> we're not redistributing sdk directly, but
20170314 14:24:19< loonycyborg> it also has stuff about redistributable
20170314 14:24:26< loonycyborg> which we will be redistributing
20170314 14:24:40< loonycyborg> if we do steam enabled releases
20170314 14:25:23< loonycyborg> and it explicitly states that it's only for object code form
20170314 14:25:48< loonycyborg> while gpl requires us to provide access to source too
20170314 14:27:13< loonycyborg> actually no
20170314 14:27:23< loonycyborg> sdk doesn't actually provide full source either
20170314 14:27:47< vultraz_iOS> hmmm
20170314 14:27:53< vultraz_iOS> let me finish this game of dota and i shal ponder
20170314 14:27:54< vultraz_iOS> shall
20170314 14:28:50< loonycyborg> actually I'm not even sure myself
20170314 14:29:52< loonycyborg> if we merely publish our steam using code
20170314 14:31:04< loonycyborg> And we don't need to redistribute steam dll for non-steam releases
20170314 14:33:57< loonycyborg> and to run it from under steam you don't even need a steam dll..
20170314 14:34:55< loonycyborg> hmm or wait you do
20170314 14:35:25< loonycyborg> but steam should handle installing it
20170314 14:35:46< loonycyborg> so it can be treated as part of runtime environment :P
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20170314 14:55:07< vultraz_iOS> obviously the steam sdk would not be in the non-steam release
20170314 14:57:11< vultraz_iOS> loonycyborg: I'm not sure why the terms of the GPL would even apply to the SDK - it's not GPL and should not be under the same restrictions 
20170314 14:57:15< vultraz_iOS> our code is still all GPL
20170314 14:57:39< loonycyborg> it still links against steam
20170314 14:57:57< loonycyborg> so steamworks can be considered part of it
20170314 14:58:35< vultraz_iOS> but it would only link for the steam version
20170314 14:59:30< loonycyborg> true
20170314 14:59:40< vultraz_iOS> even if the code remained in the main source, if it were, say, behind an include guard, you can argue that that code is *not* part of the non-steam release
20170314 15:00:01< loonycyborg> yup, but gpl affects steam releases too
20170314 15:00:02< Soliton> why would the non-steam release be of any concern at all?
20170314 15:00:18< Soliton> the non-steam release will be the same as ever...
20170314 15:00:32< loonycyborg> only with some conditional compilation
20170314 15:00:59< vultraz_iOS> releases do not contain the source code. if the SDK allows for distribution:
20170314 15:01:00< vultraz_iOS> "(b)	reproduce and distribute the part of the SDK provided inside the folder named redistributable_bin (the "SDK Redistributables") along with the Licensee Software in object code form.	"
20170314 15:01:28< vultraz_iOS> then shouldn't we be fine?
20170314 15:01:55< JyrkiVesterinen> It's true that releases don't contain the source code. However, the GPL requires that if we distribute binaries, we must also distribute the source code.
20170314 15:02:06< loonycyborg> this is too much restriction for gpl
20170314 15:02:13-!- RatArmy_ [~ratarmy@240f:b3:88e3:1:ec64:66c:3160:a638] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20170314 15:02:17< loonycyborg> we can't distribute object form without source
20170314 15:02:37< vultraz_iOS> but we already provide *our* source
20170314 15:02:37< JyrkiVesterinen> So, if Steamworks is considered a part of the game, we would also have to distribute Steamworks' source code, and under GPL terms.
20170314 15:03:01< loonycyborg> only way is to somehow convince ourselves that steamworks isn't part of the game
20170314 15:03:21< JyrkiVesterinen> Maybe we can ask Valve for advice...
20170314 15:03:22-!- DoctorFender1031 [~DeFender1@dsl217-132-48-87.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20170314 15:03:23< loonycyborg> or for them to release both api and sources for it under MIT or something
20170314 15:03:26< vultraz_iOS> well, it's technically not
20170314 15:03:27 * zookeeper thinks it'd be far simpler to just not be on steam, and instead work on a proper update installer etc
20170314 15:03:47< vultraz_iOS> it's a utility API.
20170314 15:03:56< zookeeper> (no need to distract yourselves by engaging with this argument though :p)
20170314 15:03:58< vultraz_iOS> that could be argued 
20170314 15:04:35< vultraz_iOS> (I suppose it's a far cry that the GPL v3 has any better language on this, is there? :| )
20170314 15:04:42< loonycyborg> actually
20170314 15:04:45< loonycyborg> perhaps it does
20170314 15:05:04< loonycyborg> at least I remember I had to release installer under gpl3 due to issue like this
20170314 15:05:09< loonycyborg> but I forgot the details
20170314 15:06:46< vultraz_iOS> Given that all our source state, in the license header:  "either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version."
20170314 15:06:55< vultraz_iOS> would not that mean we could apply V3 language here?
20170314 15:06:59< vultraz_iOS> it doesn't say V2 *only*
20170314 15:07:47< vultraz_iOS> "or" being the operative term here
20170314 15:10:51< loonycyborg> yes
20170314 15:11:13< loonycyborg> if we consider it necessary we can release steam version under gpl3
20170314 15:12:08< vultraz_iOS> ah, good :D
20170314 15:12:22< vultraz_iOS> then let us find out if V3 is more permissible
20170314 15:14:54< Soliton> good one.
20170314 15:18:07-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@217.132.17.168] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20170314 15:24:11< loonycyborg> https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html#GPLIncompatibleAlone
20170314 15:29:04< loonycyborg> https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html#FSWithNFLibs
20170314 15:29:38< loonycyborg> https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html#GPLIncompatibleLibs
20170314 15:31:06< vultraz_iOS> hmmm
20170314 15:33:10< vultraz_iOS> (I love the use of "Free World" in capitals :P )
20170314 15:33:55< loonycyborg> so it seems we can add an exception for steam
20170314 15:34:06< loonycyborg> but we'd need to get assent from all contributors
20170314 15:34:39< loonycyborg> alternatively we can assert that steamworks is part of system runtime for the purpose of steam release :P
20170314 15:35:11< vultraz_iOS> well we certainly cannot get consent from anyone who has every modified a file
20170314 15:35:22< vultraz_iOS> even if we just go by the rather inaccurate copyright headings
20170314 15:35:26< vultraz_iOS> that's a lot of people
20170314 15:35:39< vultraz_iOS> (I say inaccurate since a lot of times people forget to update them if necessary)
20170314 15:35:46< vultraz_iOS> (or might update them incorrectly)
20170314 15:36:07< vultraz_iOS> (or might not know when it should be considered they've modified the file enough that they can put their name on it)
20170314 15:36:34< loonycyborg> nayway
20170314 15:36:41< loonycyborg> that faq is about gpl2
20170314 15:36:52< vultraz_iOS> loonycyborg: doesn't the exception clause exclude "unless that component itself accompanies the executable."?
20170314 15:36:58< vultraz_iOS> wouldn't steamworks be considered that?
20170314 15:37:13< DeFender1031> I doubt anyone who modified half a line of code is going to sue you for putting it on steam...
20170314 15:37:31< loonycyborg> but do we have to distribute that steam dll for steam releases?
20170314 15:37:44< loonycyborg> doesn't steam provide it by itself?
20170314 15:37:54< vultraz_iOS> you said that was the vase
20170314 15:37:58< vultraz_iOS> case
20170314 15:39:06< DeFender1031> And even people who contributed more than half a line, it's like "how dare they take a work which one of the primary goals is to dissemminate to an ever widening audience and disseminate it to a wider audience!"
20170314 15:39:29< vultraz_iOS> heh
20170314 15:39:30< DeFender1031> (Yes, I realize that it's not as simple as that legally, but just practically, I don't think anyone will complain.)
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20170314 15:41:23< vultraz_iOS> i'm gonna be honest, the GPL is not my favorite license 
20170314 15:45:56< loonycyborg> steam's ndk license isn't nice either
20170314 15:46:01< loonycyborg> *sdk
20170314 15:46:10< vultraz_iOS> in what ways?
20170314 15:46:37< loonycyborg> arbitrary restrictions that don't help anyone's well being
20170314 15:47:26< loonycyborg> actually it's a lot worse than gpl
20170314 15:47:47< loonycyborg> ignoring it and bashing gpl is epitome of hypocrisy
20170314 15:49:23< vultraz_iOS> it seems the SDK does include dlls.
20170314 15:52:03< vultraz_iOS> I really dunno if we'll find a way around this :/
20170314 15:53:47< vultraz_iOS> but you say we can use the Web API?
20170314 15:53:54< loonycyborg> there is one, use web api
20170314 15:54:53< loonycyborg> also gpl 3 has stronger system library exception
20170314 15:55:19< loonycyborg> wonder if we can consider steamworks a system library in case of steam distribution
20170314 15:55:30< vultraz_iOS>  I was pondering that
20170314 15:55:52< vultraz_iOS> but wouldn't it be considered a Major Component?
20170314 15:56:33< vultraz_iOS> or would that be Steam
20170314 15:56:37< vultraz_iOS> I suppose that would be Steam
20170314 15:57:35< vultraz_iOS> "serves only to enable use of the work with that Major Component" well, Steamworks would indeed satisfy this..
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20170314 15:58:18< vultraz_iOS> could it be considered "included in the normal form of packaging a Major Component, but which is not part of that Major Component"?
20170314 15:59:20< vultraz_iOS> the condition about source code availability only seems to apply to a Standard Interface
20170314 15:59:59< vultraz_iOS> the Steamworks API is not a Standard Interface, I don't think
20170314 16:00:21< vultraz_iOS> and it's not part of Steam, per-se.
20170314 16:00:30< vultraz_iOS> but is it considered included in the normal form of packaging of steam
20170314 16:00:39< vultraz_iOS> that seems more tenuous 
20170314 16:00:54< vultraz_iOS> I can see an argument being made for the use of this exception, though
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20170314 16:06:01< vultraz_iOS> anyway, heading to sleep
20170314 16:06:10< vultraz_iOS> we still have time to figure this out
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20170314 18:04:26< zookeeper> "I am of the merfolk, dweller of the vast oceans!" that doesn't seem grammatically correct to me? should be "I am of the merfolk, a dweller of the vast oceans!" or "I am of the merfolk, dwellers of the vast oceans!", no?
20170314 18:07:04< loonycyborg> It seems grammatically correct to me
20170314 18:07:21< loonycyborg> hmm
20170314 18:07:25< loonycyborg> maybe 
20170314 18:07:30< loonycyborg> just "a" is missing
20170314 18:07:48< loonycyborg> but somehow it looks correct to me
20170314 18:08:07< loonycyborg> perhaps it's one of cases where article can be skipped for drammatic purposes
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20170314 18:39:05< gfgtdf> is there currently anythign blocking the next release ?
20170314 18:46:07< JyrkiVesterinen> gfgtdf:
20170314 18:46:09< JyrkiVesterinen> "I did notice some labels were getting truncated... I might have to take your suggestion and make can_shrink an instance key, not global for all labels"
20170314 18:46:15< JyrkiVesterinen> - Vultraz on Discord.
20170314 18:46:30< JyrkiVesterinen> I'm not aware of any other bug issues.
20170314 18:46:38< gfgtdf> JyrkiVesterinen: this is map label or labels in gui2  dialogs?
20170314 18:46:53< JyrkiVesterinen> In GUI2 dialogs.
20170314 18:47:19< JyrkiVesterinen> (I meant to write "big issues", not "bug issues"....)
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20170314 18:52:47< irker352> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master fcf71a249a9b / data/themes/_initial.cfg: fix replay button description https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/fcf71a249a9b011d52bbe1700dde2dd63906c710
20170314 18:59:12< gfgtdf> vultraz_iOS: can we mark https://gna.org/bugs/?15764 as fixed? if i understand cortrectly its a bug abtu the odl mp lobby
20170314 18:59:54< gfgtdf> hmm wait it might actuall be teh new (experiemtal)mp lobby
20170314 19:00:06< gfgtdf> unfortunateles the bugreport istn that explicit there
20170314 19:00:41< Soliton> yes, that's about the new lobby.
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20170314 19:03:46< DeFender1031> JyrkiVesterinen, "bug issues" is just redundant :P
20170314 19:05:12< JyrkiVesterinen> And of course I haven't noticed any bugs in Wesnoth. None at all. Nothing to see here. :P
20170314 19:08:34< DeFender1031> Of course not. Why would anyone think that?
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20170314 19:14:59< zookeeper> on an unrelated note, anyone ever noticed how on the minimap, the castle in AToTB:03 looks like a laughing octopus?
20170314 19:15:00< gfgtdf> matthiaskrgr: do you think https://gna.org/bugs/?19624 is still an issue? the code has changes quite a bit sicne then so the given oupt doesnt realyl tell me anythng
20170314 19:15:23< celmin|sleep> Kinda surprised there was so much discussion over whether we can use Steamworks API when technically we don't really need it anyway... at least, not for the important things like auth and cloud support.
20170314 19:15:24< gfgtdf> zookeeper: do you use tactical minimap coloring?
20170314 19:15:24< celmin|sleep> [Mar 14@2:04:26pm] zookeeper: "I am of the merfolk, dweller of the vast oceans!" that doesn't seem grammatically correct to me? should be "I am of the merfolk, a dweller of the vast oceans!" or "I am of the merfolk, dwellers of the vast oceans!", no?
20170314 19:15:26< celmin|sleep> As loony mentioned, it's legal to simply omit an article in English. I think it works without one for this case.
20170314 19:15:27< celmin|sleep> [Mar 14@2:39:06pm] gfgtdf: is there currently anythign blocking the next release ?
20170314 19:15:28< celmin|sleep> Can you test if wesnoth.select_unit can be used to select no unit? ie, clear the selection
20170314 19:15:29< celmin|sleep> Also there was something about AI that I wasn't sure about, regarding LoW.
20170314 19:15:39< JyrkiVesterinen> gfgtdf: I marked 15764 as fixed and left a comment. I had fixed two of the bugs reported there in October, and haven't ever seen the third one myself.
20170314 19:15:54< celmin|sleep> The question was whether that LoW issue resulted from broken MicroAI code.
20170314 19:16:12< celmin|sleep> Or if it's an issue in the LoW WML.
20170314 19:16:24< zookeeper> gfgtdf, works with either
20170314 19:16:29< zookeeper> celmin|sleep, okay
20170314 19:17:01< DeFender1031> zookeeper, can't say that I had until you pointed it out... :P
20170314 19:17:13< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i hope that now you can't unsee it
20170314 19:17:21< DeFender1031> yep.
20170314 19:17:32< DeFender1031> but I also see a graphical glitch here
20170314 19:17:50< DeFender1031> the lava edge is showing through the wall at 11,5
20170314 19:17:53< zookeeper> well why do you think _i_ am looking at it? :p
20170314 19:18:09< zookeeper> and yes, that's one of the glitches
20170314 19:18:18< DeFender1031> uhh.... because you have a laughing octopus fetish?
20170314 19:18:25< DeFender1031> It's cool, I don't judge.
20170314 19:18:41< zookeeper> now that you mention it...
20170314 19:18:46< DeFender1031> hahahaha
20170314 19:20:08< gfgtdf> celmin|sleep: well select_unit https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp#L2548 expliclty checks whether the locaton is valid
20170314 19:21:17< DeFender1031> zookeeper, the dwarvish castle fences also interact weirdly with the stone walls... looks like it's trying to blend in with a cave wall instead.
20170314 19:21:18< gfgtdf> celmin|sleep: so in order to select no unit you'd likley fist have to seach for any ampty hex and thne pass it to wesnoth.select_unit
20170314 19:21:26< zookeeper> DeFender1031, that's the other
20170314 19:21:45< gfgtdf> celmin|sleep: which is at least unnesarily complicated, (and impossible of no empty hex exists on the map)
20170314 19:22:52< DeFender1031> zookeeper, and yes, I can never unsee this.
20170314 19:23:04< zookeeper> excellent
20170314 19:26:10< celmin|sleep> gfgtdf: Well, vultraz's recent change means that wesnoth.deselect_hex no longer deselects the unit, so we need a way to deselect a unit. What you say sounds similar to what I suspected as well.
20170314 19:26:38< celmin|sleep> I suggest supporting one of wesnoth.select_unit(-1,-1) or wesnoth.select_unit(nil) or wesnoth.deselect_unit()
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20170314 19:57:23< DeFender1031> celmin|sleep, why not just "wesnoth.select_unit()"?
20170314 19:57:37< DeFender1031> I dislike using "-1" as a value meaning "nothing"
20170314 20:00:31< celmin|sleep> DeFender1031: Well, that would be roughly equivalent to wesnoth.select_unit(nil), so I'd be fine with it.
20170314 20:02:33< DeFender1031> I'm cool with either that or "deselect"
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20170314 21:12:18< vultraz_iOS> gfgtdf: do you happen to know if you can get an SDL_Event from the gui2 event queue somehow
20170314 21:12:47< vultraz_iOS> i'm trying to move that little hotkey binding dialog to gui2 but hotkey::create_hotkey needs an SDL_event :/
20170314 21:20:23< gfgtdf> vultraz_iOS: hm mabye you can add another sdl event listener (sdl_handler) inside that specific dialog that is independent from the other gui2 event handlers.
20170314 21:21:05< gfgtdf> vultraz_iOS: i don't know teh details of the event chain though , mabye aginor knows more.
20170314 21:22:45< vultraz_iOS> hmm
20170314 21:22:50< vultraz_iOS> i seem to have missed jyrki
20170314 21:22:53< vultraz_iOS> he might know
20170314 21:41:01< vultraz_iOS> or, wait
20170314 21:41:02< vultraz_iOS> hmmm
20170314 21:41:12< vultraz_iOS> I have an idea
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20170314 21:48:58< DeFender1031> Are there any female wesnoth devs?
20170314 21:49:20< vultraz_iOS> yes
20170314 21:50:48< vultraz_iOS> I know of... one... maybe two.
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20170314 22:16:31< vultraz_iOS> blah, this idea isn't working
20170314 22:16:35< vultraz_iOS> :/
20170314 22:22:00< zookeeper> at least i have a fix for the dwarvencastle<->stonewalls problem
20170314 22:22:19< zookeeper> or, rather, at last
20170314 22:22:45< vultraz_iOS> good, good
20170314 22:24:03< celmin|sleep> Out of curiosity, who?
20170314 22:24:34-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel
20170314 22:24:39< vultraz_iOS> celmin|sleep: which two?
20170314 22:25:03< celticminstrel> You said you know of one or two?
20170314 22:26:04< vultraz_iOS> well, there's obviously Rhonda 
20170314 22:26:09< vultraz_iOS> I think
20170314 22:26:21-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20170314 22:27:46< zookeeper> in any case, there have been very very few female devs in total
20170314 22:29:18< vultraz_iOS> indeed
20170314 22:29:42< vultraz_iOS> we're perpetrating the patriarchy :P
20170314 22:30:00< celticminstrel> :|
20170314 22:31:07< celticminstrel> BTW vultraz_iOS, zookeeper, there's no "deselect unit" event, right?
20170314 22:31:15< vultraz_iOS> not that i know of
20170314 22:31:18< zookeeper> same
20170314 22:31:37-!- irker982 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20170314 22:31:37< irker982> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:deselect_unit 213163605d0e / src/scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp: Allow wesnoth.select_unit() to deselect the unit https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/213163605d0e5ef486146c0c437a508300dd9997
20170314 22:32:54< celticminstrel> Well, there you go.
20170314 22:35:02< zookeeper> i'd be willing to estimate that if we leave out translators, the male-to-female ratio is pretty much 99:1
20170314 22:37:51< zookeeper> (and the same could certainly be true of translators too, but i wouldn't know)
20170314 22:40:41< vultraz_iOS> not enough female programmers :(
20170314 22:41:09< zookeeper> enough for what?
20170314 22:41:34< vultraz_iOS> roughly equal numbers in a random sample 
20170314 22:43:16< zookeeper> well, certainly
20170314 22:46:26< zookeeper> but dunno why you'd specifically specify programmers then
20170314 22:49:04< irker982> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e7cdb76a015d / / (7 files in 5 dirs): GUI2: basic dialog definition for a Hotkey Bind dialog (not enabled) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e7cdb76a015da66238ef4553ae3b83783080b13f
20170314 22:49:04< vultraz_iOS> random sample of programmers
20170314 22:50:05< zookeeper> yes, dunno why you'd specifically specify programmers
20170314 22:52:28-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20170314 22:53:10< vultraz_iOS> because we're programmers?
20170314 22:53:17< vultraz_iOS> it's the qualifier for this sample size
20170314 22:53:27< vultraz_iOS> s/size//
20170314 22:54:38-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20170314 22:57:37< zookeeper> you aren't making all that much sense, but whatever :p
20170314 22:57:45< vultraz_iOS> despite your nickname, we don't happen to be zoo keepers :P
20170314 22:58:06< vultraz_iOS> the gender ratio will be different based on occupation
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20170314 22:58:41< vultraz_iOS> given my (albeit limited) experience, there aren't that many female programmers
20170314 22:59:07< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, I think zookeeper's point is that some wesnoth devs may be artists rather than programmers. (I'm still with you on the idea that most people working on developing a piece of software would be, well, software developers.)
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20170314 23:00:08< zookeeper> yes, most developers are programmers, but we're certainly had tons of developers who weren't.
20170314 23:00:16< zookeeper> we've, even
20170314 23:00:26< vultraz_iOS> and the ratio in those groups?
20170314 23:01:19< zookeeper> ...pretty much the same?
20170314 23:01:29< vultraz_iOS> :)
20170314 23:01:43< vultraz_iOS> then my assessment holds
20170314 23:01:46< zookeeper> ...
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20170314 23:05:09< zookeeper> A: very few female developers in any category
20170314 23:05:10< zookeeper> B: not enough female developers in category X :(
20170314 23:05:14< zookeeper> A: dunno why you single out category X
20170314 23:05:15< zookeeper> B: because it has few female developers
20170314 23:05:19< zookeeper> A: yeah just like every other category
20170314 23:05:19< zookeeper> B: then my assessment holds
20170314 23:05:33< zookeeper> ...did i miss anything? because i don't think i did :p
20170314 23:05:58< vultraz_iOS> ah, ok
20170314 23:06:20< vultraz_iOS> then YOUR original assessment holds
20170314 23:06:45< zookeeper> \o/ what prize do i win?
20170314 23:06:58< vultraz_iOS> fame and fortune 
20170314 23:07:04< zookeeper> awesome
20170314 23:12:58< DeFender1031> And a laughing octopus :P
20170314 23:14:38< zookeeper> <3 8pi
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20170314 23:17:06< celticminstrel> Pretty sure there are a lot of female programmers.
20170314 23:18:04< celticminstrel> Less than male programmers, probably, but still a lot.
20170314 23:18:39< zookeeper> anything's possible when you disregard the context
20170314 23:18:47< vultraz_iOS> 2 years ago:
20170314 23:18:49< vultraz_iOS> http://fusion.net/story/115998/survey-says-92-percent-of-software-developers-are-men/
20170314 23:19:08< celticminstrel> Are all programmers software devs though?
20170314 23:19:47< vultraz_iOS> "92.1 percent of the respondents to Stack Overflow’s 2015 developer survey identified as male; only 5.8 percent identified as female"
20170314 23:21:15-!- Smok [c3bfa302@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.191.163.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20170314 23:22:08< celticminstrel> So a random sample of SO users.
20170314 23:22:18< celticminstrel> I suppose you could do worse than that.
20170314 23:22:40< celticminstrel> But there're probably better ways to survey gender of programmers, too.
20170314 23:23:10< celticminstrel> In particuler, "Stack Overflow’s active audience may skew more male than the programming world as a whole."
20170314 23:23:15< celticminstrel> (Quoted straight from your article)
20170314 23:25:00< vultraz_iOS> even if you look at the numbers at tech companies, where it's slightly higher, the ratio is still sadly large
20170314 23:25:19< celticminstrel> Perhaps.
20170314 23:25:37< celticminstrel> But that's a ratio. It doesn't show there are very few female programmers. :P
20170314 23:25:50< celticminstrel> eg, 20% of a billion is still a lot of people.
20170314 23:25:57< vultraz_iOS> sure
20170314 23:26:00< vultraz_iOS> but it's all relative
20170314 23:26:04< celticminstrel> (No idea what the actual numbers are.)
20170314 23:26:10< vultraz_iOS> you can have $50,000,000 net worth
20170314 23:26:22< vultraz_iOS> but if everyone else has $50,000,000,000, you're poor
20170314 23:26:24< celticminstrel> Sure, but when you say "there aren't many" or "there are a lot", that's not so relative.
20170314 23:27:01< vultraz_iOS> ok, there aren't a lot in comparison to male programmers
20170314 23:27:45< vultraz_iOS> "The Stack Overflow survey is just one data point in a long, long chain of evidence that the tech industry’s gender imbalance is severe and systemic."
20170314 23:27:58< vultraz_iOS> not just the tech industry, though
20170314 23:27:59< zookeeper> uh, yeah obviously it'd be inaccurate to say that there's numerically very few female programmers in the world.
20170314 23:28:26< celticminstrel> Trying to figure out Sigurd's issue here...
20170314 23:28:52< celticminstrel> It seems like that argument doesn't actually exist?
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20170314 23:33:13< celticminstrel> Okay, posted, yay I guess.
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