--- Log opened Mon Mar 20 00:00:17 2017
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20170320 13:33:09-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel
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20170320 13:39:44< loonycyborg> test
20170320 13:39:53< wesnoth-discord-> <loonycyborg> test
20170320 13:40:07< loonycyborg> wow it works
20170320 13:40:21< celticminstrel> Gasp
20170320 13:40:39< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> I assume that it doesn't work back the other way? 😃
20170320 13:40:48< loonycyborg> it does
20170320 13:40:49< celticminstrel> Who's that?
20170320 13:41:07< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Well, that's just fine and dandy.
20170320 13:41:34< loonycyborg> using this thing https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc
20170320 13:41:51< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Well done. That's a big step forward.
20170320 13:42:08< celticminstrel> So who's the owl?
20170320 13:42:40< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Noone interesting, I'm afraid. Just a user.
20170320 13:42:56< celticminstrel> Uhuh.
20170320 13:43:47< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Still, I like to see communications improvements. If this helps link up the irc and discord groups then that's excellent.
20170320 13:44:35< Ravana_> nice colors
20170320 13:47:20< zookeeper> disnoth? wescord?
20170320 13:48:24< celticminstrel> Haha.
20170320 13:48:47< loonycyborg> UnwiseOwl's name sounds familiar to me, probably saw him on forums or on mp server
20170320 13:48:48< celticminstrel> Of course this reinforces my resolve about not switching to Discord, too. :P
20170320 13:50:11< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> @loony probably on the forums asking noob wml questions. Seems to be all I do there.
20170320 13:53:14< DeFender1031> Will this be done for the dev channel as well?
20170320 13:56:49< celticminstrel> I'd say it's more important for the dev channel than for this one.
20170320 13:57:39< DeFender1031> That's why I asked.
20170320 13:57:52< loonycyborg> dev channel has some complications
20170320 13:58:04< loonycyborg> like irker reports to it
20170320 13:58:11< loonycyborg> and discord has github bot too]
20170320 13:58:21< loonycyborg> so any commit message will get duplicated
20170320 13:58:27< celticminstrel> Can you make it filter out irker/travis posts maybe?
20170320 13:58:32< DeFender1031> can't set the bridge bot to ignore?
20170320 13:58:40< wesnoth-discord-> <jyrkive> Would it be possible to just shut irker down?
20170320 13:58:44< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Isn't it easy enough to just disable the irker?
20170320 13:59:10< celticminstrel> Well what does the Discord bot's posts look like?
20170320 13:59:13< DeFender1031> the probelm with disabling irker is that if the bridge bot is down, IRC won't get notifications.
20170320 13:59:21< celticminstrel> Also that.
20170320 13:59:23< DeFender1031> meaning, it adds a dependency.
20170320 13:59:23< celticminstrel> Good point.
20170320 13:59:43< loonycyborg> hmm I guess it might be possible to filter some users
20170320 13:59:54< loonycyborg> but I'll need to do more research on it
20170320 14:00:23< loonycyborg> but I have more pressing issues with bot to solve
20170320 14:00:28 * celticminstrel is curious what the nick is for the Discord side of this bridge.
20170320 14:00:31< loonycyborg> like right now it's run via ssh
20170320 14:00:53< loonycyborg> so I'd need to make a service for it
20170320 14:01:00< loonycyborg> also register bot on irc
20170320 14:01:09< loonycyborg> and make it authenicate
20170320 14:01:31< wesnoth-discord-> <jyrkive> celticminstrel: this is what the Discord bot posts look like: https://s19.postimg.org/913e6k3mr/Discord_Git_Hub_bot.png
20170320 14:03:20< celticminstrel> Doesn't look like your bot has any built-in option to ignore specific users.
20170320 14:03:27< DeFender1031> yeah, that would be important
20170320 14:14:35< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Seems like there'd be a big risk disabling notifications, especially since it's documented that the irc bot drops intermittently. So muting individual users would seem like the ideal solution. Perhaps you could log it as a feature request on github? The devs seem to be quite responsive and looking through the old issues doesn't seem to have been broached before.
20170320 14:16:12< loonycyborg> probably
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20170320 15:48:17< celticminstrel> Out of curiosity, does it transmit messages only or also events (joins, parts, nick-changes, etc)?
20170320 15:49:19< wesnoth-discord-> <Scar> we dont see anyone connecting or disconnecting on irc here if thats what you mean
20170320 15:50:27< celticminstrel> Probably a good thing regarding joins and parts, at least, otherwise you'd be flooded with them. >_>
20170320 15:53:24< Ravana_> action message though should be included
20170320 15:53:52 * celticminstrel tests that.
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20170320 15:54:37< celticminstrel> Probably would be though, since under the hood it's just a regular message with special formatting.
20170320 15:55:21< Guest26917> hi all
20170320 15:55:25< celticminstrel> 'lo
20170320 15:55:34< celticminstrel> I suggest changing your nick.
20170320 15:55:59< Guest26917> how do I do that
20170320 15:56:04< celticminstrel>  /nick newnick
20170320 15:57:09-!- Guest26917 is now known as srj
20170320 15:57:23< srj> thanks
20170320 16:00:26< srj> join/ #wesnothdev
20170320 16:00:58< srj> how is every one today
20170320 16:03:29< srj> hi zookeeper I hope your keeping the zoo fun and safe
20170320 16:03:45< celticminstrel> It's #wesnoth-dev not #wesnothdev, and you misspelled your command anyway.
20170320 16:04:45< srj> I rarely use Irc so I that I did lol
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20170320 16:08:08< srj> it has beens months since I have came on here
20170320 16:08:32< srj> I am trying to fix a issue with fire fox and chrome
20170320 16:08:42< srj> I also have other issues
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20170320 16:18:24< wesnoth-discord-> <Vultraz> WELL WELL WELL WELL WELL
20170320 16:18:27< wesnoth-discord-> <Vultraz> le bot is botting
20170320 16:25:05< srj>  /msg ChanServ ACCESS #channel
20170320 16:26:24< srj>  /msg  #channel
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20170320 16:31:30< srj> Please help I am trying to find a list of channels
20170320 16:40:16< Soliton> /msg alis help list
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20170320 16:49:11 * celticminstrel wonders if Vultraz can see actions from over there.
20170320 16:50:40< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> /totally can
20170320 16:50:53< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> /suspects it doesn't work back the other way, though
20170320 16:51:38< celticminstrel> Was that also an action?
20170320 16:52:20< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> It was supposed to be. I used /action
20170320 16:52:40< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Oh wait, it's /me does thing, is'nt it?
20170320 16:52:44< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> _is a fool_
20170320 16:52:56< zookeeper> shows up here as <wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> _is a fool_
20170320 16:53:12< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Nice. Yeah, that works both ways, then. That's how your appear here.
20170320 16:53:14< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> *yours
20170320 16:53:51< zookeeper> really? these two appear identical over there?
20170320 16:53:52 * zookeeper is great
20170320 16:53:56< zookeeper> _is great_
20170320 16:55:35< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Yes.
20170320 16:58:07< zookeeper> weird
20170320 16:59:22< DeFender1031> seems an odd chouce when the message is already including the nick and it could just as easily say "Name does whatever" as "<Name> _does whatever_"
20170320 16:59:30< DeFender1031> choice*
20170320 16:59:44< DeFender1031> great. now there's a whole other room full of people to see my typos :P
20170320 17:00:34< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Seems like just a case of 'Hey, here's a thing we can do. Why not?'
20170320 17:00:55< Ravana_> these name colors seem random
20170320 17:01:58< celticminstrel> Just in case your client (or the bot!) is formatting things, UnwiseOwl... _is great_ is "is great" surrounded by underscores/
20170320 17:02:05< celticminstrel> ^.
20170320 17:03:00< celticminstrel> Probably are, Ravana. Given that it can choose yellow, I think I'd recommend loonycyborg disable the nick colours...
20170320 17:04:08< Ravana_> I use dark background, so out of those so far, Vultraz is most visible, Scar least visible, and UnwiseOwl good enough
20170320 17:04:13< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Both appear here as italics. No markup.
20170320 17:05:18< celticminstrel> Suspected as much...
20170320 17:05:36< celticminstrel> Well, at least they're sent, though.
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20170320 17:39:56< wesnoth-discord-> <pydsigner> Oh cool this is a thing now
20170320 17:40:21< wesnoth-discord-> <UnwiseOwl> Only in general for the time being.
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20170320 19:58:40< aeth> ugh
20170320 19:58:55< aeth> yet another open source game with a discord bridge to spam ugly name colors (I don't like name colors)
20170320 19:59:34< aeth> except this one's name is much longer so it looks even more out of place
20170320 20:01:34< aeth> Good thing Uber's in trouble. Maybe that's what is needed for these no-business-model companies like Discord to go out of business so everyone can go back to open source software. I'll miss Duolingo, though.
20170320 20:03:35< aeth> But, then again, that's what I hoped with Zynga's disappointment and Twitter's disappointment, etc., and the bubble just keeps going on.
20170320 20:04:25< elias> there isn't really any open source alternative to discord, is there?
20170320 20:04:31< aeth> You're using it :-p
20170320 20:04:36< aeth> And for voice chat, there's Mumble
20170320 20:04:38< elias> heh
20170320 20:06:00< aeth> If you want IRC to persist, just do what I did and buy a raspberry pi (or, I guess, a cheap web server) and put IRC on it and ssh into it (or, alternatively, use IRC bouncer software if you want to use an arbitrary IRC client)
20170320 20:06:20< aeth> No third party required, only needs unexpected attention on a power outage
20170320 20:06:30< aeth> s/on a power outage/after a power outage/
20170320 20:06:53< aeth> Effectively, an IRC client server. No need for a third party data mining corporation.
20170320 20:08:11< celticminstrel> Then there's me who doesn't care about IRC persistence.
20170320 20:08:13< aeth> And no need to use a bundled heavyweight Chromium-and-JavaScript environment called Electron that most of these desktop apps use. I doubt I'd be able to run them well on a pi like IRC.
20170320 20:08:29< aeth> sorry, they're "desktop" apps
20170320 20:08:43< celticminstrel> The only reason I'm permanently connected lately is because my computer refuses to sleep and I haven't gotten around to trying to fix it because it requires a reboot.
20170320 20:09:44< aeth> I used to never reboot my desktop, but the Raspberry Pi is a better solution. Quiter, lower power, and much cheaper if something wrong happened. It could catch fire right now and I'd only lose about an hour because I rsync the logs.
20170320 20:10:27< celticminstrel> XD
20170320 20:11:10< aeth> Anything that needs to always be running (at the moment, just IRC) can run on it. And if it's more demanding, it probably needs to be on a third party Internet-facing server anyway.
20170320 20:14:48< loonycyborg> aeth: what other games use discord bridges?
20170320 20:15:13-!- aeth_ [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth
20170320 20:15:44< aeth_> no fire
20170320 20:15:57< aeth_> well, at least on my end, maybe the Freenode server I was connected to had one
20170320 20:16:39< loonycyborg> I'm planning to disable nick colors later
20170320 20:16:53< loonycyborg> they can be unreadable based on background color
20170320 20:16:54< aeth_> I just checked, the other annoying Discord bridge bolds the names
20170320 20:17:04< aeth_> bold makes them more readable, unless the name is black and the same color as my background color
20170320 20:17:22< aeth_> for instance, I can't read that dark blue one at all
20170320 20:17:27< aeth_> too dark relative to the black background
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20170320 21:12:07< vultraz_iOS> aw the bot went down
20170320 21:12:16< vultraz_iOS> *copy*
20170320 21:12:19< vultraz_iOS> aeth_: Discord is much better than IRC. Foremost, since everyone uses the same client, we get a unified experience. secondly, it has great stuff like role groups, channel access by role, built-in webhooks, pm logs, markdown inline code, etc etc etc.
20170320 21:12:52< vultraz_iOS> IRC is antiquated 
20170320 21:13:00< vultraz_iOS> why in hell would you want Uber and Discord to go out of business
20170320 21:13:06< vultraz_iOS> we need more companies like them
20170320 21:18:20< vultraz_iOS> aeth_: and why would you get a Pi when Discord keeps nice logs for you
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20170320 21:31:56< elias> proprietary is always bad (it's why wesnoth is so nice)
20170320 21:32:08-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F2171E8A4DEB2DE615D7210.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20170320 21:35:49< loonycyborg> seems discord had some sort of outage
20170320 21:36:13< loonycyborg> I hope same thing will happen with discord as with gitter
20170320 21:36:23< loonycyborg> some oss shop will buy and opensource it
20170320 21:42:42< celticminstrel> Unified experience isn't necessarily a good thing.
20170320 21:43:03< celticminstrel> Role groups and channel access by role exist in IRC (implemented server-side via NickServ/ChanServ).
20170320 21:43:27< celticminstrel> I couldn't care less about PM logs. Inline Markdown isn't bad I suppose.
20170320 21:43:45< celticminstrel> No idea what you even mean by built-in webhooks.
20170320 21:46:25< janebot> wesnoth: Steam Release Estimation (by /u/Thanmarkou) https://redd.it/60jhmo
20170320 21:52:07< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: it means instead or running an irker instance, we just go to server settings, set up a webhook, and add the address to the repo
20170320 21:52:12< vultraz_iOS> also, 
20170320 21:52:14< vultraz_iOS> "proprietary is always bad (it's why wesnoth is so nice)"
20170320 21:52:16< vultraz_iOS> FALSE
20170320 21:53:36< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: anyway, previously, we had to set up the discord github bot using an external host
20170320 21:53:43< vultraz_iOS> but then they added built-in webhook management 
20170320 21:55:31< aeth_> vultraz_iOS: Discord is much worse than IRC. Foremost, since everyone uses the same client, there is no in-terminal client that I can persist on a home server and ssh into, and the client one is forced to use is bloated. Second, it has useless features, such as encouraging pasting code into the chat instead of using a capable pastebin, etc etc etc
20170320 21:56:07< vultraz_iOS> *why* would whether you use pastebin or not be some sort of... defining marker!
20170320 21:56:10< aeth_> vultraz_iOS: Plain text logs stored locally are great, because I'll always have them (well, now that I keep backups... I did lose my early logs) and I can use things like grep to find old things like magic
20170320 21:56:18< vultraz_iOS> it's completely arbitrary!
20170320 21:57:00< aeth_> vultraz_iOS: Uber is an unregulated taxi company that sells itself as "a ride sharing company" and a "technology company", but it is even less tech-related than social networking sites are. I miss when tech companies did... tech?
20170320 21:57:02< vultraz_iOS> who wants to create a pastebin post for a tiny amount of code
20170320 21:57:16< vultraz_iOS> also, discord supports FILE UPLOADS
20170320 21:57:19< vultraz_iOS> *praise be*
20170320 21:57:36< aeth_> vultraz_iOS: And every American company that collects data is complicit in the future crimes that are inevitable in the long run with these massive amounts of data that's never forgotten ready to be abused by a future American regime that's not so nice.
20170320 21:57:38< vultraz_iOS> so you can upload images directly without using a personal cloud drive or imagebin or imgur
20170320 21:57:57< aeth_> IRC supports file sharing, too, through DCC :-p
20170320 21:58:06< vultraz_iOS> TOO COMPLICATED
20170320 21:58:34< vultraz_iOS> aeth_: I'm sorry, but you sound like you're living in some Orwellian society the rest of us are not.
20170320 21:58:54< vultraz_iOS> "Uber is an unregulated taxi company that sells itself as "a ride sharing company""
20170320 21:59:00< vultraz_iOS> It IS a ride sharing company
20170320 21:59:29< aeth_> It's a company that tries to hire drivers without having them count as employees so they can get around more regulations and cut costs. It has nothing to do with technology or "sharing"
20170320 21:59:31< vultraz_iOS> I would much rather go and get an uber than figure out how to call a damn taxi
20170320 22:00:06< aeth_> Just because taxis aren't bad doesn't make Uber good. If goblins are fighting balrogs that doesn't mean there's a good guy in that fight.
20170320 22:00:46-!- aeth_ is now known as aeth
20170320 22:01:01< vultraz_iOS> gahh you sound like someone who wants us all to use linux - and not ubuntu, that's too mainstream - and 100% OSS for every single damn thing.
20170320 22:01:25< vultraz_iOS> despite the fact that most OSS software SUCKS
20170320 22:01:37< aeth> vultraz_iOS: And it's not Orwellian that massive amounts of data are being collected by most contemporary American tech companies, to be saved forever. And it's not a conspiracy that the United States government has secret access to this data, legally and illegally, whenever they want to have that access, with few exceptions.
20170320 22:01:56< vultraz_iOS> yes, data mining exists
20170320 22:02:06< aeth> Just because the government is only going after radical Islamists right now doesn't mean that their target won't change in 20 or 30 years, if not sooner.
20170320 22:02:17< aeth> And the data collected today will *never* go away.
20170320 22:02:24< vultraz_iOS> says who?
20170320 22:02:43< aeth> Data is all some companies have, e.g. Facebook. They'll make sure it stays around.
20170320 22:03:00< aeth> And if Discord keeps unencrypted logs on their servers, they count as a primarily data collection company.
20170320 22:03:40< vultraz_iOS> I'm sure the evil government loves to hear me talk about the latest skyim mods
20170320 22:03:45< vultraz_iOS> or dota
20170320 22:04:04< aeth> I'm not saying that the government *now* is going to target you. I'm saying that when you're 70 or 80, who knows who will have their hands on that data.
20170320 22:04:23< vultraz_iOS> and you have a rather bleak view of the future 
20170320 22:04:38< vultraz_iOS> (then again, you might not be wrong with trump in charge)
20170320 22:04:39< aeth> My bleak view is informed by the rather bleak 20th century.
20170320 22:05:09< aeth> Let's say that a future US government persecutes LGBT. What if they compel Facebook, Google, Discord, etc., to give them data of conversations that people thought were private that is then used to fuel this persecution?
20170320 22:05:23< aeth> A sizable minority of Americans are anti-LGBT, so it's not an impossible future.
20170320 22:05:57< vultraz_iOS> do you not remember that apple refused to create a backdoor into an iphone for the fbi
20170320 22:06:02< vultraz_iOS> have some faith in tech companies
20170320 22:06:12< vultraz_iOS> they're more ethical than others.
20170320 22:06:38< zookeeper> "have faith in companies", well who's the crazy one now? :p
20170320 22:06:46< aeth> Any data that is stored on the cloud that is not first encrypted locally (and really, most of that encryption will be breakable on the scale of decades, afaik) can be used against you in the future, especially if those servers are all in the United States.
20170320 22:06:49< vultraz_iOS> *tech* companies
20170320 22:07:24< aeth> There is extreme uncertainty over if it will be used against you and how because we're talking on the span of decades and quite a lot can change in e.g. 40 years. I will probably be alive in 40 years. Do I know what the data will be used for in 40 years? No.
20170320 22:07:34< vultraz_iOS> also, if in the future the government ever conducted wide-scale persecution of LGBT people, the rest of the population would riot.
20170320 22:07:49< aeth> Public opinion changes quickly in either direction.
20170320 22:08:20< aeth> Rights that are gained can easily be lost when we're talking about a time span of decades.
20170320 22:08:40< vultraz_iOS> How the hell do you care more about data mining that Donald Trump
20170320 22:08:58< vultraz_iOS> Trump is a bigger threat to rights and freedoms right now than Discord, I think :|
20170320 22:09:08< vultraz_iOS> s/that/than
20170320 22:09:12< aeth> In a matter of decades in the early 20th century, Germany went from an empire, to a republic, to a Nazi dictatorship, to two very different divided countries.
20170320 22:09:26< aeth> So quite a lot can happen in a few decades.
20170320 22:09:47< vultraz_iOS> Sure. A lot can happen. And?
20170320 22:09:49< aeth> But that data stored by American tech companies will remain there.
20170320 22:10:10< vultraz_iOS> You still haven't answered my question.
20170320 22:10:59< aeth> Which one?
20170320 22:11:16< vultraz_iOS> How the hell do you care more about data mining than Donald Trump]
20170320 22:11:18< vultraz_iOS> ?
20170320 22:11:33< vultraz_iOS> Trump is a real threat to the world as we know it.
20170320 22:11:37< zookeeper> aeth, well hey, vultraz is just covering himself here. in 40 years when they look at his chat history from 2017, he'll seem like he always was a good non-dissenting citizen :>
20170320 22:11:44< aeth> vultraz_iOS: Oh, it's pretty easy. I try not to talk about contemporary American politics because I am not certain that it is safe to do so.
20170320 22:12:00< aeth> Especially not when it's being logged publically on the cloud
20170320 22:12:03< vultraz_iOS> In fact, if you want to be pessimistic, Trump could potentially lead to the future you so darkly portray.
20170320 22:12:06< vultraz_iOS> ....
20170320 22:12:09< vultraz_iOS> safe to do so
20170320 22:13:00< vultraz_iOS> unless you live somewhere like Russia or Turkey and want to criticize Putin or Erdogan, you have *no right* to say that.
20170320 22:13:25< aeth> How do you think regimes like those of Putin or Erdogan started out?
20170320 22:13:45< aeth> At the moment, it is unclear if Trump's regime will be heading in that sort of direction. So I won't talk about Trump.
20170320 22:14:01< aeth> Remember what I said about the longevity of data.
20170320 22:14:15< celticminstrel> Uhh. What's wrong with running an irker instance? (Besides, github has a built-in IRC hook anyway if running irker is too much for someone.)
20170320 22:14:30< vultraz_iOS> You're being a coward. 
20170320 22:14:39< vultraz_iOS> If you really think that it's worth more to say nothing
20170320 22:14:57< celticminstrel> Proprietary is not always bad (early Skype for example), but it sure has a strong tendency to be.
20170320 22:15:05< vultraz_iOS> It is people like that who will idly stand by while the very thing you claim to be afraid of comes into being.
20170320 22:15:31< celticminstrel> Frankly, pasting code into something intended for quick chat strikes me as a really, really bad idea.
20170320 22:15:37-!- ChipmunkV [~vova@static-89-94-113-91.axione.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ChipmunkV]
20170320 22:15:56< celticminstrel> If there's a spoiler-button type interface, mind you, it might be acceptable.
20170320 22:16:14< celticminstrel> IRC also supports file uploads, technically. :P
20170320 22:17:05< celticminstrel> But I can already upload images without using a personal cloud drive or imagebin or imgur, because I have my own webhost. :P
20170320 22:18:06< celticminstrel> It's true that a lot of OSS software is far worse than the non-free alternatives. I'll give you that one.
20170320 22:18:08-!- TC04 is now known as TC01
20170320 22:19:05< aeth> celticminstrel: $0 proprietary software starts out nice, and then the pressure to "monetize" becomes greater and greater over time, and they always end up as buggy, ad-ridden messes.
20170320 22:19:17< aeth> And then people move to the next one.
20170320 22:19:42< aeth> The bugginess is usually because they were focusing on moving fast and breaking things, leading to poor architectural decisions that bite them much, much later.
20170320 22:20:05< aeth> They generally have nicer UIs until the ads get too intrusive, though.
20170320 22:20:36-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth
20170320 22:21:35< aeth> Interestingly, it's not restricted to $0 software, and Windows is joining in on the slow march to having an ad-filled monstrosity of a UI.
20170320 22:21:45< celticminstrel> Heh.
20170320 22:21:49< vultraz_iOS> aeth: you're so busy envisioning dark futures that you apparently don't care to speak out again the forces of alt-right populism that could *actually lead us there*.
20170320 22:22:04< vultraz_iOS> and that is disgusting.
20170320 22:22:17< celticminstrel> Well Vultraz, if you're going to speak out against the forces of alt-right populism, here is hardly the best place to do so.
20170320 22:22:39< celticminstrel> So I don't think you should take his reluctance to talk politics in this channel as something so horrible.
20170320 22:23:08< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: it's not that he said he doesn't want to talk politics 
20170320 22:23:10< aeth> vultraz_iOS: If speaking out about something actually worked, they'd make it illegal.
20170320 22:23:18< aeth> :p
20170320 22:23:21< celticminstrel> It does work, actually.
20170320 22:23:26< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: it's his insinuation that he's afraid to because in 40 years or something some repressive government will use it against him
20170320 22:23:30< celticminstrel> Or so I've heard.
20170320 22:23:53< celticminstrel> I can't say that's an unreasonable fear, especially given the rise of people like Trump and Le Pen.
20170320 22:24:02< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: so instead of preventing the creation of said future, he'd rather wait for it to come and act all smug because he's been running linux and tor.
20170320 22:24:20< aeth> vultraz_iOS: As I see it, there's a very good chance that the collected data on all of the Internet services will not be used against me personally, but also a very good chance that some group will have it be used against them.
20170320 22:24:49< celticminstrel> And if he wanted to speak out, there are undoubtedly ways to do it safely (oh hey, you even mentioned one of them!) rather than simple chatter over IRC in a logged channel. :P
20170320 22:24:53< aeth> vultraz_iOS: As for tor, no, I don't use it, because it would attract attention.
20170320 22:25:59< vultraz_iOS> well no shit
20170320 22:26:01< aeth> vultraz_iOS: The history of humanity is full of groups being irrationally and hatefully persecuted, and I see no reason for it to be different in the 21st century if it wasn't in the 20th.
20170320 22:26:17< celticminstrel> Already happening. Current target seems to be Muslims.
20170320 22:26:19< aeth> The only difference is, the next Hitler will have access to digital data instead of having to work with punchcards.
20170320 22:26:26< vultraz_iOS> what celticminstrel said
20170320 22:26:28< celticminstrel> Well, mainly Muslims. There are others too.
20170320 22:26:29< vultraz_iOS> and not just muslims
20170320 22:26:34< vultraz_iOS> the lgbt community
20170320 22:26:37< celticminstrel> Like transgenders.
20170320 22:26:41< vultraz_iOS> immigrants 
20170320 22:26:43< vultraz_iOS> trans people
20170320 22:26:45< vultraz_iOS> refugees 
20170320 22:26:48< vultraz_iOS> anyone who's not white
20170320 22:27:07< vultraz_iOS> no one is saying the world will be perfect
20170320 22:27:19< vultraz_iOS> no one is saying that people will not or are not persecuted 
20170320 22:27:55< aeth> It's just that Discord, Google, Facebook, etc., make it much easier for such groups to be persecuted in the future if the persecutor has access to their collected data.
20170320 22:27:55< vultraz_iOS> but it's everyone's duty to FIGHT to make sure we DON'T get the next hitler
20170320 22:28:11< vultraz_iOS> and right now , Trump looks a LOT LIKE HITLER
20170320 22:28:19< zookeeper> you can't make a difference by talking about politics unless it actually involves trying in vain to persuade idiots, and you can't blame people for not having the mental fortitude to subject themselves to that kind of torment constantly.
20170320 22:28:28< DeFender1031> wow... that escalated quickly.
20170320 22:29:02< vultraz_iOS> aeth: sure, that's a concern. but you'll never solve it by hiding in a corner!
20170320 22:29:07< vultraz_iOS> it needs to be addressed!
20170320 22:29:12< vultraz_iOS> just like a million other questions!
20170320 22:29:16< vultraz_iOS> like security in the IoT
20170320 22:30:15< aeth> Afaik, I never said what I was or was not doing. Iirc, I just said I didn't like to talk about contemporary US politics in places that will be stored permanently.
20170320 22:30:48< aeth> And, really, I do not see what you accomplish by talking about politics on IRC. You either preach to the choir or get into a heated argument that no one benefits from.
20170320 22:30:51-!- SigurdFD [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has left #wesnoth []
20170320 22:31:13< DeFender1031> I'm not even sure why a discussion over whether or not to use discord turned into this.
20170320 22:31:26< vultraz_iOS> the point is to show people that shit like racism, bigotry, and discrimination is NOT ACCEPTABLE
20170320 22:31:37< vultraz_iOS> we said "never again" after WW2
20170320 22:31:41< vultraz_iOS> and look what's happening now
20170320 22:31:41< aeth> DeFender1031: Because everything is politics eventually? Which makes it hard for me to avoid politics on IRC...  :(
20170320 22:31:57< celticminstrel> Well, at least the Netherlands is still winning though.
20170320 22:32:02< aeth> vultraz_iOS: There were quite a few genocides after WW2.
20170320 22:32:06< aeth> vultraz_iOS: I'm sure Wikipedia has a list.
20170320 22:32:29< celticminstrel> I've definitely heard of one or two in Africa, at least.
20170320 22:32:36< celticminstrel> And then there's ISIS.
20170320 22:32:45< celticminstrel> Which IIRC is also genocidal?
20170320 22:32:51< aeth> Don't forget Serbia.
20170320 22:33:28< vultraz_iOS> just because wrong things happen doesn't mean you're exempt fom standing up for what's right
20170320 22:33:52< celticminstrel> But aeth has never said he doesn't do that, only that he doesn't do that here.
20170320 22:33:54< aeth> And, technically, France is doing a slow, peacful genocide of the minority cultures and languages within its borders, ongoing since at least the 19th century. Genocide doesn't just mean mass murder.
20170320 22:34:19< aeth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
20170320 22:34:53< aeth> School systems forcing the dominant language on linguistic minorities are probably the main way genocide is done.
20170320 22:35:04< DeFender1031> Seriously, can we please NOT do this?
20170320 22:35:16< vultraz_iOS> next you'll say multiculturalism is white genocide. 
20170320 22:35:17< vultraz_iOS> :|
20170320 22:35:30< celticminstrel> Now you're putting words in his mouth.
20170320 22:35:41< vultraz_iOS> well he's coming close to that
20170320 22:35:44< Ravana_> I don't really get how discord is any worse in that point than irc. You can expect both logged
20170320 22:35:54< celticminstrel> I don't see how he's coming close to that, but whatever.
20170320 22:35:58< aeth> Ravana_: centralization
20170320 22:36:02< zookeeper> DeFender1031, now this is finally going somewhere :>
20170320 22:36:15< DeFender1031> zookeeper, huh?
20170320 22:36:17< celticminstrel> Well, IRC is not logged by default, AIU.
20170320 22:36:23< vultraz_iOS> WE LOG THIS CHANNEL
20170320 22:36:27< vultraz_iOS> IN A CENTRAL LOCATION
20170320 22:36:40< aeth> vultraz_iOS: Destruction of minority cultures can be done through government programs designed to assimilate those minority cultures.
20170320 22:36:53< celticminstrel> Wesnoth only logs Wesnoth channels, and stores them on the Wesnoth server.
20170320 22:36:54< aeth> Australia did this against its original inhabitants. So did Canada.
20170320 22:37:07< celticminstrel> ^ true
20170320 22:37:18< zookeeper> several times during this discussion i've wanted to say something that even vultraz_iOS would worry at least a tiniest bit about being associated with forever by some evil incompetent data miner in the future. but alas, even i worry the tiniest little bit that it might actually "work".
20170320 22:37:23< aeth> vultraz_iOS: Yeah, so IRC logs scattered across the Internet and not always publically logged vs. Discord logs all on Discord's servers. Which one is easier for intelligence agencies?
20170320 22:37:31< celticminstrel> Discord logs all channels and stores them on the Discord server IIUC.
20170320 22:37:48< vultraz_iOS> aeth: god dammit, here you go blaming the government again. ASSIMILATION HAPPENS.
20170320 22:38:03< celticminstrel> Forced assimilation is bad, though.
20170320 22:38:08< vultraz_iOS> look at immigrants. despite all the right-wing bullshit about how it doesn't, it does!
20170320 22:38:16< DeFender1031> WHY IS THIS CONVERSATION HAPPENING?!
20170320 22:38:17< aeth> vultraz_iOS: And when it's done through an engineered government program it's different than when it's done through e.g. television or something.
20170320 22:38:44< celticminstrel> More or less that. ^
20170320 22:39:11< vultraz_iOS> ok, that's more a gray area.
20170320 22:39:40< aeth> Sometimes this forced assimilation involved kidnapping children of the minority group iirc.
20170320 22:39:55< vultraz_iOS> well that's NOT a gray area. that's just shitty.
20170320 22:39:58< zookeeper> DeFender1031, politics in general is boring, but when you get into highly contentious topics like multiculturalism and cultural genocide, it's potentially more entertaining
20170320 22:39:59< vultraz_iOS> and wrng.
20170320 22:40:08< vultraz_iOS> wrong
20170320 22:40:12< aeth> I forget if that was Canada or Australia or both...
20170320 22:40:54< celticminstrel> I don't recall if that happened here either.
20170320 22:41:10< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper is probably sitting eating popcorn 
20170320 22:41:18< zookeeper> i don't eat popcorn
20170320 22:41:20< aeth> The US has probably done worse. The US, after all, was built on slavery and genocide.
20170320 22:41:27< zookeeper> popcorn is too mainstream for me
20170320 22:41:56< celticminstrel> The US had that sort of cultural genocide though IIRC, with special "aboriginal schools". I think Canada had those too though IIRC...
20170320 22:42:21< aeth> The US also had the mass murder sort of genocide, too, iirc. Trail of Tears?
20170320 22:42:28< vultraz_iOS> aeth: and the fact that Trump just recently went and praised Andrew Jackson doesn't bother you
20170320 22:42:35< vultraz_iOS> ?
20170320 22:42:39< celticminstrel> I don't know who that is.
20170320 22:42:51< aeth> celticminstrel: the guy who did the trail of tears
20170320 22:43:01< aeth> He's on our money
20170320 22:43:04< celticminstrel> I don't know/remember what that is either.
20170320 22:43:05< aeth> Because the US honors his memory
20170320 22:43:13< aeth> celticminstrel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
20170320 22:43:15< celticminstrel> I feel like I heard the name Andrew Jackson before.
20170320 22:43:25 * celticminstrel sighs. Thanks for link...
20170320 22:43:33< vultraz_iOS> aeth: yeah, and it's not great
20170320 22:43:41< vultraz_iOS> you're making me feel like I'm defending such shit
20170320 22:43:44< vultraz_iOS> and I'm not
20170320 22:43:57< vultraz_iOS> the US has done some shit
20170320 22:44:02< vultraz_iOS> not denying it
20170320 22:44:07< aeth> celticminstrel: and that guy's on the $20, which is one of the most common denominations of money the US uses right now
20170320 22:44:15< aeth> So quite a few people see that guy's face
20170320 22:44:30< aeth> Meanwhile, other countries have poets and scientists and inventors and stuff on their money.
20170320 22:44:36< celticminstrel> I haven't seen USian money for years.
20170320 22:44:45< aeth> celticminstrel: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/US_%2420_Series_2006_Obverse.jpg
20170320 22:44:46< vultraz_iOS> aeth: IIRC we're going to replace Jackson with Tubman?
20170320 22:44:57< celticminstrel> Pretty sure we just have old PMs on our money. And the queen.
20170320 22:45:17< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i dislike taking part in a discussion like this, but it's vaguely entertaining to watch it from a position of knowing that both parties would lose their marbles if you actually interjected to say unfiltered what you yourself think
20170320 22:45:27< aeth> vultraz_iOS: hah? Do something politically correct when Republicans control literally all branches of the federal government? It'll be cancelled if it was in the works
20170320 22:46:07< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I suppose that's one way to look at it. Personally, I had been hoping that Wesnoth would maintain a little more decorum.
20170320 22:46:07< vultraz_iOS> aeth: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/women-currency-treasury-harriet-tubman.html?_r=0
20170320 22:46:43< celticminstrel> Liking NYTimes is kinda a bad move IMO.
20170320 22:46:51< vultraz_iOS> ... why :|
20170320 22:46:55< aeth> vultraz_iOS: "proposing to replace the slaveholding Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill with Harriet Tubman"
20170320 22:46:58< celticminstrel> Because you need a subscription to view it.
20170320 22:47:03< vultraz_iOS> no?
20170320 22:47:03< aeth> celticminstrel: private browsing
20170320 22:47:06< celticminstrel> Yes?
20170320 22:47:11< aeth> celticminstrel: it's a weak paywall where you can just always privately browse it iirc
20170320 22:47:17< aeth> it uses cookies (and requires cookies so you can't block them)
20170320 22:47:19< zookeeper> DeFender1031, this is pretty light. look at our off-topic forum and witness something that happens in pretty much no other off-topic forum; no religion/politics threads.
20170320 22:47:24< aeth> celticminstrel: unless they've improved it
20170320 22:47:31< celticminstrel> Well, I'll try it, I guess.
20170320 22:47:40< vultraz_iOS> I've never needed a subscription to view it
20170320 22:48:03< vultraz_iOS> aeth: at least we both agree the GOP is socially regressive :)
20170320 22:48:18< aeth> vultraz_iOS: the article says the genocider stays on the money, just moved to the back
20170320 22:48:20< celticminstrel> Nope, still asks me to log in when I open it in a private tab.
20170320 22:48:25< aeth> vultraz_iOS: and afaik it can still be cancelled
20170320 22:48:27< aeth> celticminstrel: strange
20170320 22:48:51< celticminstrel> I do have cookies blocked in general though, so maybe that has something to do with it.
20170320 22:49:03< celticminstrel> No idea why Vultraz doesn't seem to need a subscription.
20170320 22:49:07< aeth> iirc, the NYT is the one where you have to allow cookies
20170320 22:49:25< aeth> You don't need a subscription for your first N articles, or for any article linked through social media (I guess they look at the referrer)
20170320 22:49:49< celticminstrel> Temporarily enabling cookies does work! :O
20170320 22:50:17< celticminstrel> Well, whitelising nytimes shouldn't be a problem I guess. :/
20170320 22:50:19< aeth> Okay, so I wasn't wrong. They enforce their weak paywall by requiring cookies, so private browsing should give you infinite views, but it requires cookies.
20170320 22:50:20< vultraz_iOS> aeth: yeah, well they probably needed to do that to keep the right from bringing out the torches
20170320 22:50:35< aeth> (At least until my workaround is too common.)
20170320 22:52:22< celticminstrel> aeth: So IOW I can reset my counter by deleting the cookie?
20170320 22:52:49< aeth> probably
20170320 22:52:57< aeth> I just use private browsing, though.
20170320 22:53:08< aeth> Maybe they have other tricks, like local storage?
20170320 22:53:25< vultraz_iOS> I guess this is winding down
20170320 22:53:26< aeth> Private browsing should take care of all of the tricks they use.
20170320 22:53:36< vultraz_iOS> I still think aeth should be more outspoken 
20170320 22:53:44< vultraz_iOS> not speaking out means you're part of the problem 
20170320 22:54:05< vultraz_iOS> but im going to leave it
20170320 22:54:30< aeth> I don't think e.g. waving a red flag in #wesnoth would accomplish anything.
20170320 22:54:44< vultraz_iOS> not here maybe
20170320 22:55:00< vultraz_iOS> we haven't been infested by nazis
20170320 22:55:22< vultraz_iOS> pretty sure everyone here is perfectly reasonable
20170320 22:56:08-!- Aumpa [~Aumpa@2602:30a:2e73:100:3c4c:bb39:679f:700a] has joined #wesnoth
20170320 22:56:35< vultraz_iOS> or I hope :(
20170320 22:56:56< DeFender1031> https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder793/68510793.jpg
20170320 22:56:58< aeth> I don't think the far right has ever been larger in Europe or the United States since WW2. I could be wrong, though.
20170320 22:57:08< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS ^^
20170320 22:57:32< vultraz_iOS> aeth: that's the problem
20170320 22:57:49< vultraz_iOS> the alt-right must be shown those ideas are socially unacceptable 
20170320 22:57:56< vultraz_iOS> and not to be aired in public 
20170320 22:58:08< vultraz_iOS> not encouraged 
20170320 22:58:22< vultraz_iOS> but assholes like Trump, Le Pen, Wilders..
20170320 22:58:29< aeth> So? They'll just go back to their safe spaces like 4-chan, 8-chan, some subreddits, voat, etc.
20170320 22:58:39< vultraz_iOS> let them stew 
20170320 22:58:50< celticminstrel> Unfortunately we do need to allow them to articulate their unacceptable views. :( Though you can limit where they can say them.
20170320 22:59:06< celticminstrel> Letting them stew is probably part of what led to this problem in the first place, Vultraz.
20170320 22:59:15< aeth> My point is, every view is socially acceptable somewhere on the Internet.
20170320 22:59:58< aeth> Every view. :(
20170320 23:00:08< vultraz_iOS> we need to do more to prevent more people from going down the rabbit hole
20170320 23:00:31< celticminstrel> Which suggests abolishing Facebook. ;)
20170320 23:00:48< celticminstrel> And similar places that tend to provide a self-reinforcing environment.
20170320 23:01:06< vultraz_iOS> you have people like young impressionable guys who end up in shitholes like 4chan because they feel welcome with the shit slop of women and minority bashing.
20170320 23:01:07< celticminstrel> Mind you, even Google Search qualifies though...
20170320 23:01:10< zookeeper> vultraz_iOS, hey, i'm not reasonable by your standards, i'm sure. based on past comments anyway :p
20170320 23:01:24< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: you're eccentric 
20170320 23:01:27< vultraz_iOS> but not a nazi
20170320 23:01:57< zookeeper> not being a nazi means being reasonable? :>
20170320 23:02:01< zookeeper> low standards
20170320 23:02:15< aeth> To be fair, standards on the Internet have lowered considerably in the past 10 years.
20170320 23:02:17< celticminstrel> No, most nazis are reasonable. Unfortunately. (That's how they managed to take over Germany.)
20170320 23:02:28< vultraz_iOS> no..
20170320 23:02:49< aeth> celticminstrel: afaik, that's wrong
20170320 23:03:00< vultraz_iOS> hitler was charismatic and gave the germans a nice target to take our their anger.
20170320 23:03:09< vultraz_iOS> "well, you're poor?" "let's blame the jews!"
20170320 23:03:18< vultraz_iOS> it's *EXACTLY* what's happening now with trump
20170320 23:03:21< celticminstrel> Yeah okay.
20170320 23:03:29< vultraz_iOS> "shrinking middle class? blame the immigrants!"
20170320 23:03:55< celticminstrel> "What, you say immigrants hold up our economy? Balderdash! Away with them!"
20170320 23:04:08< vultraz_iOS> we like to think of hitler as some slobbering rabid cerberus devil.
20170320 23:04:09< zookeeper> depends on the definition of nazi. it's certainly possible to steelman a reasonable position that would be pretty nazist by objective criteria
20170320 23:04:18< celticminstrel> ^
20170320 23:04:35< vultraz_iOS> but I bet if we met him today without the 'stache we wouldn't recognize him
20170320 23:04:43< aeth> I think the US would have declining population like many other developed countries without immigration.
20170320 23:05:01< vultraz_iOS> and that's what's scary
20170320 23:05:14< vultraz_iOS> evil can be banal 
20170320 23:05:22< vultraz_iOS> and then it becomes acceptable
20170320 23:05:31< vultraz_iOS> and before you know it, Holocaust :|
20170320 23:06:18< vultraz_iOS> it's the frog-in-a-pot analogy 
20170320 23:07:53< vultraz_iOS> hitler didn't start out saying "kill all the jews"
20170320 23:08:12< vultraz_iOS> he started out with, essentially, "make Germany great again"
20170320 23:08:40< vultraz_iOS> just like today with trump
20170320 23:09:03< aeth> Not every right wing populist ends up as literally Hitler.
20170320 23:09:08< vultraz_iOS> there are a lot of trump supporters who have legit concerns about stagnant wages, the shrinking middle class and rising income inequality 
20170320 23:09:44< vultraz_iOS> and trump sees that and gives them an easy target to direct their anger
20170320 23:09:52 * celticminstrel points at Putin.
20170320 23:10:05< vultraz_iOS> and they're too blinded they should have voted BERNIE SANDERS
20170320 23:10:11< vultraz_iOS> blinded to see*
20170320 23:10:22< celticminstrel> Unfortunately the Democrats didn't allow them that option.
20170320 23:10:41< celticminstrel> Because, for some bizarre reason, each party can only nominate a single candidate to the presidency.
20170320 23:11:24< vultraz_iOS> the Dems did all they legally could to throw it in favor of hillary
20170320 23:11:26< aeth> and yet it doesn't matter anyway because the Democrat still managed to win the vote
20170320 23:11:28< celticminstrel> So they decided to choose one of their worse (unpopular) candidates and hope that she'd get through just because she's a woman, or something. I don't really know what was going through their heads.
20170320 23:11:45< vultraz_iOS> we still won the popular vote, yes
20170320 23:11:58< aeth> Everyone monitoring the national polls forgot that they measure national popular vote, not the electoral college.
20170320 23:12:02< vultraz_iOS> but the electoral college favored orange juice
20170320 23:12:32< vultraz_iOS> but people could still have voted bernie in the primaries 
20170320 23:12:35< vultraz_iOS> if they switched parties
20170320 23:12:38< celticminstrel> That might be partly because some states had the audacity to rule that the electoral college was not allowed to do its job.
20170320 23:12:48< vultraz_iOS> but they were so enthralled by trump they never would have considered it
20170320 23:13:03< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: what?
20170320 23:13:17< celticminstrel> IIRC one or two republicans resigned rather than voting for Trump as their state would have mandated.
20170320 23:13:42< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: the EC is complicated
20170320 23:14:04< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: some states make it mandatory that all electors vote for the winner of their state
20170320 23:14:06< vultraz_iOS> some do not
20170320 23:14:15< vultraz_iOS> and having a "faithless elector" is possible
20170320 23:14:53< vultraz_iOS> so technically, even though trump won in november, he still could have lost once the EC met.
20170320 23:15:11< celticminstrel> AIUI, the possibility of faithless electors was in fact one of the reasons the electoral college was instituted in the first place.
20170320 23:15:19< celticminstrel> Yet some states render that illegal.
20170320 23:16:06< vultraz_iOS> yes, I did read an opinion piece by some professor (I think) that stated that the EC should have the moral responsibility to block trump
20170320 23:16:09< vultraz_iOS> but of course, they did not
20170320 23:16:17-!- RatArmy_ [~ratarmy@240f:b3:88e3:1:a1fa:8d99:324b:6f76] has joined #wesnoth
20170320 23:16:48< celticminstrel> Not out of partisan concerns but simply because he displayed a lack of qualifications for the job.
20170320 23:16:57< vultraz_iOS> certainly
20170320 23:17:19< vultraz_iOS> i hope sanders runs in 2020
20170320 23:17:23< zookeeper> yeah, it was rather clearly demonstrated as being a redundant institution
20170320 23:17:35< vultraz_iOS> the US needs sanders
20170320 23:17:40< vultraz_iOS> or Warren
20170320 23:18:08< vultraz_iOS> the Dems just need to realize their party needs to throw themselves hard left
20170320 23:18:16-!- Aumpa [~Aumpa@2602:30a:2e73:100:3c4c:bb39:679f:700a] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20170320 23:18:21< vultraz_iOS> trying to stick center and try to woo more moderate republicans is a mistake
20170320 23:18:25< loonycyborg> lol what a coincidence
20170320 23:18:35< loonycyborg> I setup bot and suddenly discord is down
20170320 23:18:39< loonycyborg> same day
20170320 23:18:56< loonycyborg> is it part of illuminati plot? :O
20170320 23:19:26< vultraz_iOS> until then, we must Resist 
20170320 23:21:46-!- RatArmy_ [~ratarmy@240f:b3:88e3:1:a1fa:8d99:324b:6f76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20170320 23:21:52< zookeeper> loonycyborg, yes it is
20170320 23:23:56< zookeeper> i wish there was a secret organization plotting to control the world the way i'd want and i was invited
20170320 23:24:10< zookeeper> alas, it hasn't happened so far
20170320 23:25:31-!- Shiki [~Shiki@141.39.226.226] has joined #wesnoth
20170320 23:28:13< loonycyborg> vultraz_iOS: I for one think proprietiary vs oss is orthogonal to quality of software
20170320 23:28:32< loonycyborg> but proprietiary software is extremely inefficient organizationally
20170320 23:29:13< loonycyborg> basically people do everything harder to push their belief in "intellectual property"
20170320 23:30:22< vultraz_iOS> .... I know where this is going
20170320 23:30:27< loonycyborg> I don't care what people believe in as long as they don't push it on me
20170320 23:31:32< zookeeper> i don't care if people believe that they have intellectual property as long as they don't try to prevent it from being my intellectual property too :p
20170320 23:31:37< loonycyborg> but all those silly licenses and eulas for sure are pushing something
20170320 23:31:55< loonycyborg> and I'm more than willing to tell then to take a hike
20170320 23:32:39 * vultraz_iOS throws DRMs, EULA, and NDAs at loonycyborg
20170320 23:32:48< loonycyborg> :@
20170320 23:36:32< zookeeper> p.s. just enough time remaining to devise an april fools post about how we'll be implementing always-on online DRM
20170320 23:38:18< aeth> People won't mind as long as you tie it to a progression system and have one-off, limited-time Elusive Scenarios that cannot be save/loaded.
20170320 23:38:42< zookeeper> ohh, good ideas to add to the mix
20170320 23:38:55< aeth> (I'm talking about the new Hitman game, btw.)
20170320 23:39:51< aeth> The first mission will be to defeat Vaarg the Orc, you only have one chance. Don't mess it up.
20170320 23:40:01< zookeeper> also, being OSS would allow hackers to circumvent the protection too easily, so we'll be encrypting the source code and distribute the keys to it only to trusted developers
20170320 23:40:16< zookeeper> or something like that
20170320 23:40:52< zookeeper> seeing how gullible people have been in the past, i bet a numerically significant amount of people would buy it :p
20170320 23:41:50< zookeeper> get to work vultraz, you're the best person to explain the benefits of that kind of scheme :>
20170320 23:42:40< aeth> That kind of... Scheme?
20170320 23:42:43< aeth> Better idea for a prank
20170320 23:42:50< aeth> Propose that you're rewriting all of Wesnoth in Scheme.
20170320 23:43:04< aeth> Maybe it'd even be taken on HN as a serious headline, and they love to upvote Lisp stories.
20170320 23:43:10< zookeeper> ha
20170320 23:43:15< celticminstrel> HN?
20170320 23:43:18< aeth> If you need some simple code snippits, I can write it.
20170320 23:43:50< aeth> celticminstrel: Hacker News
20170320 23:44:08< aeth> celticminstrel: It's like reddit's /r/programming. You could make a lot of imaginary internet points on both sites by reposting from one to the other.
20170320 23:44:32< zookeeper> oh well, i'm out ->
20170320 23:45:03< celticminstrel> Is that ycombinator?
20170320 23:45:07< aeth> Yes.
20170320 23:45:45< aeth> It's loosely associated with that startup accelerator and its founder Paul Graham, and it's the only notable thing written in Paul Graham's custom dialect of Lisp called Arc.
20170320 23:46:22< aeth> It's about 80% r/programming, 10% r/startups, and 10% random news articles, especially if the news articles interest San Francisco startup founders.
20170320 23:46:36< aeth> so e.g. news articles complaining about how expensive it is to live in San Francisco
20170320 23:46:42< celticminstrel> XD
20170320 23:46:45< vultraz_iOS> but it is
20170320 23:48:39< aeth> Wesnoth was on the front page 2 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9946668
20170320 23:48:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20170320 23:52:27< aeth> If you can convincingly make it seem like Wesnoth was switching to Scheme, you would probably get on the front page there.
20170320 23:52:44< aeth> And possibly on various places on reddit.
20170320 23:52:55< aeth> You would all have 11 days to make it convincing enough, though.
20170320 23:53:10< aeth> e.g. which Scheme (or other Lisp)?
20170320 23:54:19< aeth> A WML parser as a first step or something could also help convince people. (Parsers in Lisps are very trivial to write.)
20170320 23:56:04-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@pl27616.ag1212.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 21 00:00:08 2017